Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?

Subject: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 11:47 AM

My partner has a 14 year old son who is on Ritilin. He is in gr. 8 and is having trouble with his school work. He lacks motivation and drive and does not complete his assignments. He cannot remember things and his concentration is severely hampered. He is currently working at 26%. I'm wondering if it's because of the drugs that he is having so much difficulty. Does anyone have experience with this and is there any hope for these kids on ritilin to do well in school? He's a good, kind hearted kid and my heart breaks for him. It was recommended that he go on this drug over a year ago by a teacher who found him to be just a little too hard to handle. He's a very complient child now...just a very poor student. Any help would be appreciated.
LL

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Morticia
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 11:53 AM

so go back to the doctor.........I've worked with kids on this stuff and too high a dose tends to show exactly what you are describing. What does a little too hard to handle mean, anyway, I wander? Have any other approaches been tried?

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:08 PM

Where I work(a Middle School) teachers cannot suggest or reccommend drugs. In fact most teachers are not in favour of drugs for students as the drug often covers up a more serious social problem. It is often given for so called ADD but many children are misdiagnosed simply because no one wishes to accept respeonsibilty for what may be home induced problems.
   I also felt "too difficult to handle" should be applied to any students who seriously disrupts the schooling of others.
   A very complex problem indeed, with no easy soloutions.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:14 PM

If I were growing up today, I'm positive someone would suggest Ritalin for me. I was more than 'a little hard to handle'. I lucked out and got a teacher had the patience to try to teach me how to control myself. The thing was, I COULD. I wasn't that hyperactive, but I didn't focus. ADD is often beyond a kid's ability to control, and they can benefit from the drug.

I agree with Morti: go back to the doctor. If the doctor put the child on the drug simply because a teacher recommended it...I don't know any other way to put it - it's wrong. He's medicating the kid for the benefit of the teacher, not the kid. It sounds like he's getting too high a dose or he perhaps doesn't have a condition that would warrant it in the first place.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM

No, he is medicating the kid for the sake of the thirty or so others in the class. Also, I know of no doctor who drugs children because the teacher said to.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:28 PM

This lad is not hyperactive. By saying he was " a little too hard to handle" I was meaning that he was socializing with the others in class and not focusing on his work. He still cannot focus on his work. He seems to be totally overwhelmed by the work load in Gr. 8 and has just given up. He can't remember instructions and his memory is very poor. I will stress again that he is a good kid, likes to go to school but just doesn't seem to be able to do the work.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:30 PM

I hate the current popularity of Ritalin as a substitute for one-on-one understanding. I probably would have done wellw ith a few doses of Ritalin myself when I was in grade school, and I am glad I escaped such a fate, but I was a bit much to handle. I believe Ritalin suppresses issues rather than resolves them. (That is just an opinion and I am suire there are cases who would swear by it.)

I wish there were established non-invasive methodologies for resolving these things. Like, say, communicating?

A

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:47 PM

is this a music thread ?

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:54 PM

IF he were mine, I'd get hjim off the damn stuff and ontop some naturopathic balanced regimen; but who can say really what it would be like without a much more close up experience with the situation? I just dislike the use of psycho-active drugs to "cure" behaviors.

A

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Alio
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

He may be "compliant" now because he's doped up on the drug. When I was a head teacher the local paediatrician put 3 of my pupils on Ritalin, all against the recommendations of the teaching staff. We had several concerns - personally I think it's almost abuse! I agree with the others - go back to the doctor and query it. Also ask for advice on who else you could speak to, could give you advice etc.. Good luck!

Ali

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

I've been down the road you and your partner are on, and you have my sympathies. The problems you are seeing are part of a much bigger picture, and not an easy picture to define, let alone to deal with.

It is hard to even know where to start, but since you started with Ritalin, I'll start there too.

I am not a big fan of Ritalin, or any psychiatric drugs, especially for kids, but sometimes they can be useful in therapy--first thing is to talk to the doctor and adjust the dosage to an appropriate level, which is to say, to a level that side effects of the drug are minimized--this type of medication is intended to increase the boys ability to function in school, not to sedate him--it may even be necessary for the doctor to change medications--

Which brings us to the next point--Why is the boy being given the medication?

They often prescribe Ritalin for kids with Attention Deficit Disorder, and the symptoms that you describe are pretty much ones that correspond to ADD, both the behavioral problems and the problems with motivatrion, concentration, and studying--was the boy having these problems before being given the drug? It wouldn't be surprising--kids who are "hard to handle" in school tend not to be doing well academically--

Anyway, the next question to ask is, what is the boy's diagnosis? Did a family doctor just write a prescription and say, "let's see if this helps", or was there a more formal evaluation of his problems, with a treatment program that includes ongoing therapies, as well as medication?

If the boy has been assessed, and determined to have learning differences(which is the current, politically correct term for the problems you describe) schools are required by law to provide the necessary therapies--and there are some really good resources available--if not, it is imperative that the assessments be done--

Schools are required to provide them under the same laws that require that appropriate therapies be provided, but it can save a lot of time and red tape to have the assessments and recommendations for treatment, done independently--

If this is starting to sound a bit overwhelming, you are right, it can be--and, you have already noticed that, as a concerned non-parent, and you will be compelled to watch while others do nothing--

Do what you can--check with the doctor on the dosage yourself, either call, or take the boy on his next visit--pick the boy up from school one day, but go a half hour early and chat with the counsellor about what is available--

Remember a couple things--don't ever try to step in, or tell the parents what they should do, instead you should help by make suggestions, and by quietly picking up the slack(you can really do a lot this way, because there is alway a lot of slack)--also, be a friend to the boy, and help him to see how he can make decisions that achieve the things he wants and need--

Anyway, you see a problem and you care--God Bless You for that!

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: okthen
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

I don't know if this is relevant to this discussion but a simple experiment was tried recently in some Northern schools here in the UK.To give the example of one child who did next to nothing at school, came home and flopped on the sofa to watch TV or play video games never doing his homework (you know what I mean), he was transformed by using this "wonder" food additive and now is attentive in class, loves doing his homework, thinks the library is the best thing since sliced bread, in short a totally different person.
The name of this "wonder" ingredient, cod liver oil, which after a few weeks had such a dramatic effect on those using it ( some were given placebos) that everyone was given it.
For those of us in the UK there was a BBC prog. about it a couple of months ago. There may be a link from "Richard and Judy" ch. 4 website.
As I said I don't know if this is relevant to this particular situation, but good luck, if you can't help him now he might not get back on track.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Bearheart
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:28 PM

Not a music thread but since I usually limit myself to those these days I was glad to see it. My sister (teaches learning-disabled kids/master's in special ed) sent me this article from Rueters talking about this stuff and the long-term effects on children:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=3952324

I sent it to a bunch of folks I know, and one friend who has worked with at risk kids for a long time had this to say in response to the article:

"These drugs affect the brain in the same way cocaine does. (a point that the article makes) That's why individuals taking the drug don't want cocaine; they're already getting the same reactions. Everything in the article has been known by the medical and psychological professions for years. I can substantiate the "conspiracy" but won't put it in writing because of my professional standing. "

This fellow is someone I've known for a long time who is very careful about what he says, and usually knows a lot about something before he'll express an opinon.

I urge you to read the article and share it.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: okthen
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:36 PM

Sorry I thought it was only cod liver oil but this is a link to what they were talking about. Hope it's of use, I echo the above sentiment by M.Ted, I hope you continue to care even if you don't get much thanks right now, persevere.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:37 PM

GUEST: No, it's not a 'music thread'. Is that your main concern? It'll get straightened out in due course. Relax.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM

Return to the doctor for further advice. Ask for referral and consultation with a specialist; there are multiple causes, the roots not treated with Ritalin.
Large doses of communication and understanding, as mentioned above, often do more than drugs.

(Not a doctor, but one in the family)

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:58 PM

I know that schools in some jurisdictions are required to provide therapy, assistance, inclusion and all that. However, you cannot legislate the impossible. I teach 104 middle schoolers 12 of whom have been "diagnosed as Add. adhd or odd. I have no help to deal with these students. As much I recognize the need for individual programmes , I have not the time or resources to provide them.
   In at least half the cases the parents provide no support other than making impossible demmands on schools. I think we need to revisit a number of issues in order to help truly needy children..
Distiingquish between very bad behaviour and a genuine disorder, provide assistance to schools so that All children may learn in a suitable environment, be very sure we are doing the right thing when we "drug" children and, above all, be sure we know the difference between a disorder and and an unwillingness to to face the fact that some children, for whatever reason, simple behave very badly.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

I work with EBD (emotional and behavior disorder) students in an urban high school. The recommendation to check the prescription for adjustment is an excellent one.

But as to the rest of the advice you are getting here, none of it seems to be of an academic nature, and your original complaint is that the child is now lethargic, and not completing any academic work.

I don't know that anyone can give you good advice without knowing the child's academic history, or their level of learning at this point. You do provide the child's grade level, but that is pretty irrelevant nowadays for these circumstances.

The criteria used for EBD or LD kids is (including the No Child Left Behind Act) for them to make academic progress appropriate to their individual ability level. There should be an individual education plan (IEP) for your student if they have already been designated in that group of students.

In other words, the problem may or may not be the ritalin. The problem may be a lack of understanding of the processes currently used in middle and senior high schools for at risk students.

Often the problem is dosage with ritalin, but it can also be with timing of medication. Once adjustments in the drug are made, the child may do just fine.

I also have to say that as both a parent and educator, I'm pretty skeptical about the automatic assumption that the school is at fault, which seems to have been made by nearly every contributor to the thread. As a professional educator, my answer is, you haven't given us enough information to know one way or the other what the true problem is with this child.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:42 PM

Sadly, far too many kids are on Ritalin as a means of social control that has nothing to do with the child's well-being, and they get that way from docs who are too eager to prescribe drugs. (A subject which can be tempered by pointing out that if docs don't prescribe drugs, many patients assume they aren't "fixing" anything.)

In addition to checking the medication levels with the current doc and getting more background from the school, I would also seek a 2nd and 3rd medical opinion on the child. It may provide some perspective on the child's condition (or lack thereof.)

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:44 PM

Middle school is a very tough time for most kids. For kids who are not keeping up with their peers it is a time of great frustration as the academic gap widens. Many children faced with this knowledge begin a pattern of behaviour that is designed to hide this fact.
The pattern ususally follows work not completed in class, homework not completed, disorganization, too much inappropriate social inetraction, lethargy, bad behaviour, very bad behaviour, acting out, alienation , extreme behaviour. Not all students follow this full cycle but the potential is certainly there.
I would take a hard look at previous academic records, was there a slow, gradual decline in achievement ? Are you hearing the same message from all teachers re work habits and behaviour. Find out who your child is spending time with . Are these new friends underachieving ?
   Many children are very well behaved at home because they do not feel the same frustration there as they are not trying to keep up with thirty others.
   I would ask myself if there is a self-esteem problem at school ? Talk to school staff and ask for an honest comment on the child's work and learning style. Where does the child fit in the class, how do his classmates seem to regard him, he them ?
   I do sympathize and I urge you to make yourselves well informed and do not jump at the first diagnosis. Good luck and I do hope you get the answers you need and deserve.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:10 PM

If you think that we were all blaming the school, GUEST, you need to go back and re-read whatwe all said--I think everyone here understands that it it the doctor, and not the teacher, who decides about medical treatments, but we also understand that there are some teachers(as well as parents) who apply a lot of pressure to have kids put on medication, and that it isn't always the best response to the problem at hand--

As to the comment about there being no academic help here, the boy is being treated by a doctor for psychiatric problems, and Lyrical Lady is concerned about the consequences of that treatment--I suggested that she should find out what the boy's diagnosis is,what kind of evaluations led up to that diagnosis, and whether the treatment included other things than drugs--

You may think I am being nitpicky, but one of the things that really aggravates me the "professional educator" who dismisses the concerns of parents out of hand--they are the reason that special needs parents are compelled to organize and pursue a lot of our issues through the legal system--

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM

Ritalin (spell correctly now kiddees) is nothing more than Methamphetamine. Speeds the process up so kids don't get lost in the swirl and babble of normal, to us, goings on.

The above person who talked about dosages and timing is correct. Back to the Doc for an adjustment and a behavioral treatment plan to accompany the drug. Takes both you know?

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: mg
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 11:53 PM

and see if they are feeding the kid...kids are being fed great quantities of not just junk food, but what parents consider healthy food, which tend to be mostly carbohydrates..think of the "healthy breakfast" that is recommended..cereal, skim milk, toast and fruit..a huge carb load...if the kid makes it through the school day, and even has someone at home to meet him, chances are he might be given a snack and told not to eat anything else because it will spoil his appetite. Don't worry about spoiling his appetite. Feed him a real meal..leftovers from last night maybe. Give him a stick to the ribs breakfast with maybe oats and real milk and some protein..even, heavens above, bacon and eggs. Read metabolic typing diet and think what is happening to all the "protein types" who aren't being fed what they need....and the cod liver connection doesn't surprise me..get rid of all trans fats in the diet and read Nourishing Traditions...if the kid's ancestry is northern European, chances are he/she will do well with dairy fats, meat, etc...different if they are of Mediterranean, Asian, etc. ancestry..if people don't get the right fats, and this will include saturated fats for some (read everything by Dr. Mary Enig) their brains will not be working right. Period. mg

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:51 AM

My son matches what you are describing. He is NOT ADD. He has a minor case of dislexia mixed with other minor Learning Disorders.

The first thing you should do is get a good testing battery done on your son.

If he is not hyperactive, DO NOT LET HIM STAY ON RITALIN, no matter what others wish to do to help manage him.

Meet his needs and his behavior and performance will improve. We have had this case every year with the schools for the past several years. His needs have to be met, not just the school's.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:08 AM

Dear MTed;

You may think I am being nitpicky but as a "professional educator" I find your remarks somewhat insulting. Me experience over 25 years has shown me that many students reach a crisis stage in middle school because parents often don't face facts and seek the PROPER help. I am not blaming all parents but there are enough parents who choose to ignore these problems that we now apppear to have an epidemic of so called "disorders" in North American Middle schools. We really must work together to solve this problem and stop the teacher bashing that I detect in some of this thread.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:37 AM

I found the post on diet very interesting. Many Dr.s will not prescribe drugs for children but do insist on a low sugar diet. Many kids are overdosing on sugar, breakfast often consists of coke and chips, lunch is often candy ,chips and more coke...and supper is often high in fat and is followed by an evening of more sugar munchies. The result of this is often hyper-activity and unacceptable school behaviour. I think parents ought to take a long hard look at some of there own "disorders" before blaming others for the disorders of there children. For thos who have kids who are truly suffering a disorder..get lots of opinions..not just one. I agree with all who say this is avery mixed up problem.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:15 AM

I am not a big fan of drugs!

As some of you know my wife died on the 28th last month and it is suspected that it was a complication or side effect of one of the drugs she was prescribed!

BUT

I believe 100% in Ritalin . I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid in school and could not focas on less that 10 things at a time. My parents (both doctors) Researched this new drug (ritalin) for two years and even went to the mayo clinic and worked with some of the U.S.'s head pedatricians to see if this drug was any good.

The day I started my mum kept me home to watch me And for the first time in my life I sat down and did something creative (I Drew a kingfisher).

If you need it ritalin helps you focas and pay attention to one thing at a time!

As a side effect behavior seems better and more subdued! The problem is that most people want to treat the behavior and not the attention Deficite!

Another side effect is loss of apetite! When I was on it I couldn't eat lunch and would have to eat as soon as I got Home froim school!

As the ADHD kid I can tell you how shitty it is to not be able to read one sentance without your mind driffting off to 10 different places making reading Impossible!

Ritalin is not for everybody but it was amazing for me!

Raptor

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:18 AM

And Don't be a coward and post as a guest!

If you don't believe in your post enough to sign your name to it than don't post!

Raptor

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:31 AM

Are guests welcome at this site or not. I am getting a bit tired of guest trashing by people with names like Raptor. Most of us who come on as guests have our reasons, cowardice or lack of faith in what we are saying is not among them. Many of the "guests" posts on this topic have been thoughtful and sympathetic..how dare you assume otherwise.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:42 AM

I can also add that if the behavior problems (regardless of their roots) aren't brought under control in middle school, there is little hope of any success in high school. For some kids, maturity happens in high school and resolves the majority of middle school issues. But for most the kids with behavior issues, the problem is as the middle school educator stated.

The problems are much larger in high school, and much more serious for the school community too. Especially in urban schools.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: paddymac
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:03 PM

Ritilin - a classic case of a drug in search of a market. First make the drug, find out what it does (sort of), then define a "syndrome" for which it will be the near-perfect cure. Thirty years ago, one of my kids participated in a "summer camp" at the university in which they did a multiple blind study of behavioral responses to a number of "treatment" modalities. It worked out that my child was in the drug placebo group, but the better news from the study was that ritalin was inappropriate for most kids. The greatest "improvements" came from one-on-one counseling. What I recall most as a parent was that the kids became exceedingly adept at reading the authority figure and figuring out which answers wouldn't work and which would to varying degrees. I dont recall that any "clearly did" benefit from it, but some "might have." The deliberately imprecise language reflected statistical limitations. As I recall, there were a couple of hundred kids in the "camp," and the few kids who seemed to show some improvement (I don't recall how that was defined) were simply too few in number to allow positive assertions. The sad part of the tale is the the program lost its funding after that first summer. I don't know for sure who funded the study, but I can guess.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:26 PM

Thank you to everyone who has posted...I appreciate the info so far.
Raptor...I'm curious...when did you stop taking ritalin? What/when/ who determines when the drug is no longer needed?
AND is it true that ritalin impairs the maturing process....i've heard that it delays puperty in boys and I wonder if this is a factor in the sociability of a 14 yr old.
I agree that more testing needs to be done and that perhaps his dose is not correct. Like I have said...he's very lathargic, which some interpret as lazy...and his short term memory is very poor.
I'm also curious as to what some of the side effects are and also what happens if doses are missed or stopped abrubtly for periods of time. currenly he is supposed to take a pill 3 times a day...seems like an awful lot to me. BUT...as I'm not the parent..I'm not in a position to say too much. I only ask so that I may be better educated when it comes to understanding this issue.
thanx...LL

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:26 PM

I just don't think that many of these so-called "disorders" are disorders at all...If they are, why the following..

95 per cent boys
80 percent or more in North America

It seems odd. don't it ?

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:28 PM

GUEST--again, I am not seeing anything that I would call teacher bashing, only folks commenting that, if the boy in question was given Ritalin only because it was recommended by a particular teacher, that it wasn't apprppriate--

There are a lot of "educators" who feel that they are the experts, and everyone should completely accept everything that they say because they have spent however many years dealing with the "problem" in the classroom, and that this means they "know" better than anyone else--

However, over the last twenty five years, medical and psychological researchers have found that a lot of what were once thought to be simply behavioral problems are really cognitive and information ordering differences, and that kids that have these issues must be dealt with differently than those with family issues or with psychiatric and emotional issues.

This means that even "educators" who have been dealing with these problems for a long time don't know all that there is to know about them--unfortunately there are a fair number out there with the attitude that "I have a Master's Degree and 23+ years teaching experience, and no one tells me what to do."

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:11 PM

First I need to apologise to Guest!

Sometimes people here log off thier identities to post as Guest to say things that they don't want ascioated with thier own login Name! I did not mean to imply that Guests are unwelcome! I was out of line and I'm sorry!

Now LL I went off ritalin after grade 13

As far as maturity goes I've yet to attain that at 35 years old. Puperty was not delayed

As far as going on and off I never took it during weekends or hollidays! and didn't seem to have any side effects!

Raptor

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM

I've worked long enough in education to know that teachers are as frustrated and anguished over these problems as are parents, people in medicine, and the community at large. One gains neither wealth nor prestige and status for being an educator in this society. So some might like to consider just why anyone in this day and age, would freely choose to enter the field of education. And then maybe think twice (instead of projecting one's own miserable education experiences on the rest of the world) before affixing blame for a student being medicated with ritalin. Last time I checked, educators weren't allowed to write drug prescriptions. That requires two authority figures--the parent and the doctor--to accomplish.

You, Raptor, apparently have never sat on the educator's side of the fence. While I empathize with your plight in school and am delighted to hear that ritalin worked well for you, I think you are viewing the problems being discussed from but one side--the side you may still be stuck on when it comes to discussing these issues, due to your personal experience. Your experience is valid, of course, but so is the experience of educators who have seen many children at risk over the years, and tried to help them find their way.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: mg
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:46 PM

I have 2 masters degrees in education, and there are plenty of financial reasons to go into education. The money is just not that bad, especially in rural areas compared to some of the other options. Summers are magnificant, even if you have to go to summer school. Benefits are just super duper. I couldn't do it because I just couldn't deal with the groupthink I encountered, mostly in Seattle Schools, pre John Stanford, r.i.p., who was wonderful as a superintendent, and quite sensible. I could not think like the teachers thought, that stuff was not their problem, that crimes that went on int he schools should not be reported to the police...that it was ok for students to skip school, be abusive to staff and other students...you name it...this is one school district, but it was so bad I never ever want to do that to myself again. mg

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 03:54 PM

GUEST--I've got news for you--I've heard teachers request, and even demand, that certain of their students be given Ritalin as a condition of continuing in their class--and I have seen administrators back them up, so I know that this happens. And I know that many doctors prescribe the drugs their patients ask for(which is why there is so much advertising for prescription pharmaceuticals on television)--if Lyrical Lady says that the teacher requested it, well, she would know better than any of us--

As for the rest of your commentary--I agree, it's a rough world, and the working person don't get no respect. Whatdya want? Egg in yer beer?

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: vectis
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 05:35 PM

The comments about diet are interesting and valid. If the lad comes off ritalin in the holidays try putting him on an ultra low sugar and no additives diet. Plenty of FRESH vegetables, fresh slabs of unadulterated meat, fish and dairy produce. Decaffeinated tea and coffee. Keep the milk down, it contains a lot of sugars.
You may find that the diet has as profound effect on his behaviour as the ritalin. If it doesn't? Go back to the doc and get the ritalin dosage right.
I'm a teacher and have seen almost miraculous changes of behaviour in students put on a fairly primative diet. Beware though
Some kids need the amphetamine to normalise the way their brain reacts to stimulus, especially in our modern hyperactive world.
Good luck.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 06:00 PM

Yep...I'm in agreement with many others here....get that kid back to the Dr. Since when can a teacher make medical recommendations? Does your partner have full custody of this child? If so, it is entirely the parent's call as to what medications are used. Have the levels of this medication been recently checked? It is entirely possible that could use some tweaking.....in case your partner is reluctant to remove all medication (which may be unwise and have to be done gradually...I dunno..check with your Dr).

I work with "troubled kids" for a living. I have seen medications completely wreck some kids while being the answer for others. There are plenty of new medications on the market for ADD and such things.....possibly this child would respond better to something else...or better yet....perhaps he would respond to a behavior plan put in place by a psychologist in conjunction with the family and school.

I hate to see kids all doped up. At the very least, please have his medication levels checked (blood test).

Michelle

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:48 PM

The average salary of new teachers is under $30,000/yr. At 1-2% per annum pay increases, it takes a long time to make a salary you can support a family on, regardless of whether the benefits are good or not.

And not all educators' benefits are good. I am currently paying $450/month for family health care coverage, which doesn't include dental coverage, co-pays, out of pocket expenses, but does include plenty of caps on coverage.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:54 PM

BTW Mary, since you do have experience working in urban schools, just what are your solutions to the problems facing urban education today regarding problem students? I ask, because you said the problems were so bad you wouldn't ever go back to teaching. That says to me you didn't have much of an investment in the community where you taught.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: bbc
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:17 PM

I have been following this thread & debating whether to comment. I am the librarian in an American public school, grade 3-5. I see each class of students once a week for a 45-minute instructional period. It is difficult to maintain continuity of instruction to start with, but, if I have 3-5 students in the class whose behavior is out-of-control, it is virtually impossible to teach anything. I know that we have a few to several kids in each class on some kind of medication, but I have never observed any of students looking "drugged." What I *have* observed are the days when a student misses his/her medication or when, because of a growth spurt, change in medication time, etc. the medication isn't effective & one of my otherwise really nice, but lively students just can't seem to hold still or keep still at all. I'm not primarily concerned that it disrupts things for me, but it brings embarrassment to that student & frustrates the rest of the class. I don't claim to know the answer to this situation & I sincerely doubt that there *is* one answer. I suspect ritalin is overprescribed, but it seems to me that it is helpful in permitting some students to concentrate.

imho,

bbc

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 10:01 PM

It is up to the mother (not Roche, nor Beyern, nor Merych) to bear what they have sown. Let the kid understand "retro-active-abortion"....they will quickly tow the line.

The only reason for a kid get a subscription to Ritilun....is so their parents can shortcut the drug-supply and use it themselves....we are talkin' 'bout speed.... mother's little helper......housewife's crank.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 11:42 PM

I used to babysit for a friend's little girl, who was, obviously, very bright. She was a story junky, and loved being read to. I'd pile up five or six books, and put a glass of water in easy reach, and go to town. Except for occasional interruptions, (She told me once that she was going to tell the police that the mole wanted to marry Thumbelina.) she would sit and listen for hours.
She was enrolled in a magnet kindergarten, with a special focus on science for the first half of the school year, there were no problems. AND THEN her mother moved to Arizona, to take a job on a Navaho reservation. The little girl started the reservation school, with children who were just learning English, and possibly didn't know the alphabet.
The school said she was ADD. I think the poor kid was just bored. Her mother went along with the diagnosis. Mom wasn't the brightest
bulb on the tree, and I don't think she wanted a smart kid.
ADHD may exist, but I think it's overdiagnosed, and I think the diagnosis is sometimes abused.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Bearheart
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 01:15 AM

Hey folks, did ANYONE check out the web site for the Reuters article I mentioned in my previous post? This was quality reporting and very pertinent.

It really did look at the issue of what this stuff does to kids-- particularly the issue of motivation, which was one of the concerns.


And as many people have remarked, diet and other factors can often have as profound an effect on behavior as prescription drugs. There are studies on the effect that food allergens (corn for instance, which is high in sugar) can have on students' performance. I have seen pictures from one study comparing a child's drawings/handwriting before and after eating corn-- the difference in the sophistocation of the drawings/writing is like the difference between a pre-schooler and a 4th grader. Very scary.

Part of educating ourselves about this stuff is finding out what these drugs really do. Otherwise how can people make informed choices, or figure out what alternatives are available.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 01:25 AM

Lyrical Lady, if you send me a PM with a few more details, I'd be happy to start a dialogue with you and make some suggestions as to what might be going on and what might be tried.

By way of introduction, for those who don't know me, I'm a developmental pediatrician, I help run the ADHD diagnostic clinic in a major teaching hospital, and I've been caring for children with ADHD for over 20 years. I also write songs, play guitar, and sing.

There are a number of good and thoughtful suggestions on this thread. There are also a lot of misconceptions about ADHD and stimulant medications such as Ritalin, and many of them have showed up in this discussion. Two of the most glaring ones: "Ritalin is just methamphetamine." False. The generic name for Ritalin is methylphenidate. I can understand why people might be confused. Another medication that is often used for children with ADHD is in fact amphetamine, but methamphetamine (speed) is not the same thing. Nor is cocaine, which is a local anesthetic and brain stimulant.

"If he's not hyperactive, he doesn't need Ritalin." False. A large number of children have the confusingly-named condition "Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, inattentive type." This used to be called "ADD without hyperactivity," or simply "ADD" as differentiated from "ADD-H". The terms keep changing, but the bottom line is that you can have a problem with selective attention, focusing, and other executive brain functions, without being hyperactive, and still show a dramatic positive response to stimulant medications.

Admittedly, the use of stimulant medication for children who may be hyperactive doesn't seem to make intuitive sense, and we originally called it a "paradoxical effect." However, ADHD appears to be a condition in which parts of the brain are not working at full efficiency, due to an apparent low level of the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine. These brain centers seem to be the ones that control executive function, impulsivity, and selective attention, among other things. The stimulant medications increase the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain and help those parts of the brain to work more effectively. We still aren't exactly sure why the hyperactivity decreases, but it does.

I often explain to parents that giving a child with ADHD stimulant medications is not "drugging" him; it's replacing something that's missing. A person who has diabetes has too little insulin, and his cells don't metabolize sugar properly. If you give him insulin, that helps his body to function normally. In the same way, replacing the missing neurotransmitters by using the correct dose of stimulant medication helps the child with ADHD to function more normally, enabling him or her to use his or her natural abilities without the interference caused by the symptoms of ADHD. (Too much stimulant can make a child irritable, more hyperactive, or "act like a zombie", just like too much insulin can cause hypoglycemia, seizures, and coma, which may look very much like the coma caused by too little insulin.)

Stimulant medication does NOT treat the learning disorders that often go along with ADHD, but it may help the child to focus on, and make us of, the educational interventions that are needed in order to help him or her succeed in school despite a learning disorder.    Also, medication is also almost never the only approach to helping a child with ADHD.   Educational and behavioral interventions are also important, as well as counseling to help with problems of low self-esteem and to help children overcome their tendency to impulsivity. But good studies have shown that those interventions work better when used in conjunction with medication when medication is needed.

I also agree with many of the statements about diet. It's clear to me that certain foods and food additives make ADHD symptoms worse, though figuring out exactly which ones do it for a particular child isn't always easy. By the way, lots of so-called "natural drug-free treatments" for ADHD are either stimulants (like ephedra, which can cause dangerously high blood pressure) or sedatives--which really would be drugging a child inappropriately.

That's my view, anyway.

Aloha,
Mark

PS: I've written a 4-page handout for parents entitled "Frequently Asked Questions Regarding Stimulant Medication for ADHD." I've submitted it to CHADD and the American Academy of Pediatrics for inclusion on their websites. For anyone who's interested, if you PM me your email address I can send it to you.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 02:24 AM

I am a parent of a two boys who are on the 'spectrum' of disorders with ADHD. I am also a teacher of SEN with experience of working with such children and I have been chair of governors in a school where we have had to make very hard decisions about these children.

our eldest son had a sugar and aditive and preservative free diet for many years to control his hyperactivity it takes about 6 weeks from staring to have its full effects but after a week the effects were noticeable. I havent had time to read all the threads in depth but I got the impression people were suggesting a learning disorder in addition to the hyperactivity. My sons are both highly intelligent - that was part of their problem - they new they should be like the other children but were different - they were also incredibly bored by school. We never experienced ritaliin first hand as we refused to consider it having seen the zombied effects on other children but it can be effective for some as long as the dose is correct. There are also homeopathic medicines that other parents have tried that are supposed to be effective ( again not tried) The DDAT centre uses an exercise regime to help dyslexics/dyspraxics and ADHD children I have been using an exercise programme in my school since September and it certainly seems to have calmed down our 'behaviour problem' children and allows them to concentrate for longer in class.

Check out the DDAT website or PM me and I can send you details if you are interested.

Sue

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:43 AM

Good parenting is essential in these circumstances too, but sadly that is often lacking. I have a very close friend with a child who is going through this, and her daughter's behavior got so bad over last summer (a 15 year old driving cars illegally, never coming home, etc), that they have now lost custody of her. They aren't great parents, but they are good parents who did everything right--including trying medication (the child refused to take it), working with school authorities, home schooling, working with the juvenile justice system...the father is a special education teacher, the mother has a masters in psychology. It has been one of the most painful tragedies I've ever witnessed between parents and child.

In addition to the cycle that the middle school educator spoke of, and the learning challenges these kids face that others have mentioned (myself included), I want to get back to the original question, which is why is the child having academic problems? If this child can't be engaged soon with some kind of schooling, I can tell you, the spiral out of control can happen VERY quickly.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers:RITILIN??
From: Peg
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:39 AM

re: corn as an allergen, bear in mind that most of the processed foods people consume in this fair nation contain corn-based sweeteners, which can also cause a subtle allergic reaction. Just because it doesn't cause sneezing or a rash doesn't mean it's not harmful. Kids today eat way too much processed junk--consumption of these foods has been scientifically linked to psychotic behavior and mental illness. Maybe trying a healthier diet before Ritalin would be a good idea.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?
From: Raptor
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 08:50 AM

Guest I have sat on the educators side for the Last ten years!

When it comes to the learning there is only one side! The students!

Talking medication, the students are the ones to consider. NOT what is best for the teacher! Teachers do not have the qualifications to guess, or recommend any treatment! That is left to Doctors like Mark Cohen here!

Being on the side of the educator I have seen to many teachers say that they don't care what the problem is they just "Hope the Little bastard took his pills!"

I'm not implying that you are one of these teachers but they are out there and they are Not educated at all about ADHD!

Raptor

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?
From: GUEST,LRNAKATA
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:29 AM

Hello lyrical Lady. I have read everyone's comments on your situation. I'm 27 with a 3and a half yr.old. My brother(25) is on 20 mg of ritalin. He started a 10mg. This is the 1st time in his life to be on this drug. He goes to school 4 days a week, works full time at night. He went to the Dr. with complaints of not being able to concentrate as well as he used to. He was immediatley prescribed ritalin. He takes a dose before he goes to school and it really seems to have helped his concentration alot. He was not diagnosed with a learning diability of any kind and I was surprised the Dr. prescribed that so soon. But it helps...he never had much trouble in school when he was a child and is not hyperactive. There are days that he does not take the medicine,like when he doesn't have school, and there are no adverse side effects. This is the only knowledge I have about this but I do agree that a 2nd opinion is a good idea. A change in diet sounds good too. I wish you much luck in finding the correct answers you need.. L

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 10:31 AM

I retired early last year after 30yrs of Social Services Child Care in the UK. During that time I made many of my feelings clear on the use of Ritalin to "control" behaviour.
ALL children are affected in some way by the foods they eat as Mary Garvey lightly touched on in an earlier post.
The staff I worked with, who believed in my "theories", monitored the foods that different children, who had been diagnosed as ADHD (Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder), were ingesting. Reactions to certain types of food are easily recognisable by behaviours exhibited.
If your child is exhibiting beahviours which make him/her appear to be under the influence of something then please monitor them. Keep a record of all meals eaten and particularly all sweets and carbonated drinks. Many of the reactions manifest themselves within half an hour of ingesting the particular type of food so it is not difficult, by a process of elimination to establish what affects your child.
There have been a very minimal amout of children who cannot be brought down to earth by diet and have ended up on Ritalin but please give this a try. It is a tedious task to record all foods eaten and varying reactions, which is time consuming and boring but...you want your child back to normal without the use of drugs...Go for it! Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:33 PM

Last year i taught a class of thirty three grade seven students.four who were diagnosed as add. They had been on medication for years by the time they came to my classroom. If any one of them came and had not taked the meds..the class became unbearable for the other students and for teachers. Many add students are disruptive in school and that makes learning very difficult for others. We do need to find soloutions that are best for all students, not just add students. The simple fact is that many students are not able to participate in many class activities....we must find alternatives that benefit all students.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:13 PM

Can I add my 2 penneth.
I have one duaghter who is Autistic and One who has been professionally diagnosed with ADHD/ADD.

My adhd daughter was put on Ritalin. The main purpose as I understood it was that the drug acted as a substitute for a substance missing in the brain (can't remember what it was now), which helped the concentration and allowed them to absorb what was being taught.

Six months later We took her off Ritalin after receiving lots of info about Ritalin that nobody talks about - namely it can affect the growth of a child and it also can destabalise the blood. We were horrified and have stuck to our guns. Its not been easy but it is infinately better than leaving her on such an horrific drug.

Of course add children are diruptive, they can't hold there concentration for longer than a second and if the education is not interesting enough they lose the plot. It is not their fault.

Our teacher was very good at the time and supported us taking her off the drug, and worked out ways to involve her without making her lose her self esteem (which in my opinion is the worst thing that can happen)

Oh and those people who don't understand ADHD/ADD and make out that the parents can't handle their children are so far from understanding the real situation. My own family (parents and brothers) used to constantly criticise our handling of her becuase of their ignorence.

As it is, my daughter who is now 13 is doing remarkably well at school and together with the teachers, have ensured that she is not too disruptive in her classroom. She is well mannered and understands morality. She got very goods marks this year and has had to probably work twice as hard as other "normal students" to acheive it.

Ritalin I thought could only be prescribed by a peadiatrician after consultation and tests from the psychologist and psychiatrist. If a doctor prescribes it without such authorisation, they should be struck off the register.

Sorry about that, needed to get that one off my chest.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:24 PM

Les, I didn't know. Well done and did you read what I added to the thread? Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Parents/Teachers: RITALIN?
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:38 PM

GS, I hadn't read your post, but have done since. You are to be commended for sticking to your beliefs. We haven't bothered too much with diet, but we do keep her off things like coke etc which gets her hyper. It really is disgraceful how Ritalin is handed out to children just to shut them up - I consider that criminal.