cd's will be history

Subject: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:34 PM

I was at our local HMV record store in Ontario which caters to an area of many thousands of people. The folk music section which a couple of years ago was quite substantial is now a complete embarrasement. There are no independant folk artists in their stores anymore, and the ones that are there, are from just a couple of the distributors available, and they only have a tiny collection of artists in stock. The names and genres were all mixed up and in there were a host of comedy and deleted specials from other genres. The few CD'S that were there will inevitably be returned to the distributor in short order if they don't sell and the distributor has the right to return those CD'S to the record companies at zero expense to them. Stores do not care and obviously do not spend any energy to promote folk music recordings anymore - they are just hoping that we will all go away.
Well most of us artists are out of the stores because of this senario, but by the looks of things I wouldn't want to be there anyway.
I've recently had an offer to put my CD's in stores in the U.S.A. by a big distributor -all on consignment. Same deal - they can return all that don't sell. I'm really worried that they'll just land in hell stores like HMV all over the place and linger in limbo - so I haven't chosen that option.
Also by the looks of things CD's are quickly on their way out. No one under 20 years old wants to spend $ on a CD. They download everything they can get for free, or burn CD's they borrow. Good luck to any folk artists marketing recordings these days .

Arnie Naiman

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:46 PM

The response to this is to sell your own CD's over the web.

Of course we need to figure out a way to get people to know how to find the stuff in the first place.

And if the CD stores have nothing to sell that people want to buy, they will close. Same as what happened to small bookstores.

Robin

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 08:38 PM

it is, of course, possible that with ongoing technology like MP3 players, that CDs will be considered too bulky. I can imagine total solid-state (no moving parts) music in the future that is accessed by some sort of phone, either from a rental agency, or from one's own home system. How would artists make a living that way? I dunno....live concerts for 'some'...selling lyric sheets and books and stories maybe?

I do know it will sure be an issue! I already miss the big cover art of vinyl records with printed booklets big enough to read.

People wont quit writing and singing, but they may change a lot of the circumstances under which they do it!

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:04 PM

" No one under 20 years old wants to spend $ on a CD. They download everything they can get for free, or burn CD's they borrow."

Then why are CD sales higher now than they've ever been?

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,smokeyjoe
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:28 PM

It took me many years to come to the conclusion that record stores, labels, managers, and even some musicians, are in the business to make money first, and to enjoy/promote the music second. Once I realized this, I thought to myself 'well, I can't really blame them, it's their store/business.'
    I live in Toronto too, Arnie, -I've even heard your music! (I really like what you're doing)and have probably frequented some of the music stores of which you speak. It IS pretty dismal for folks like us. I've pretty much given up on the 'majors' unless I was looking for something current, or buying a gift. Record stores just arent like they were when we were kids. You don't find yourself going into an HMV to discover new music, or to meet people with similar tastes. Those days are long gone.
    HOWEVER, as stated above, the internet has become a great tool for checking out new music, listening to stuff you might never have heard of, and (with a little detective work, just like in the 'old days') finding new and inspiring music.
    Yesterday, I received two Dwight Diller cd's in the mail, which i never would have been able to purchase -let alone hear, had it not been for the internet. I've discovered the playing of Wade Ward, Clarence Ashley, among others, just by sifting thru the 'net.
    I understand your concern when you speak of not having much of a chance to be heard when you're being bottom/back racked in the 'folk' section. Maybe you should give some thought to whether you really want to go thru the disappointment of being buried.
    Then again, what we've got to remember is that we're playing fairly specialized music, that will rarely interest more than a chosen few. ......... I jokingly label my cd compilations 'Everybody Hates My Music.... So I Must Be Doing Something Right'
Good Luck!
Joe

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:29 PM

At least the CD covers are larger than Cassete Tape Covers!

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:42 PM

Check out CDBaby for a good place to sell your CDs, at least from what I've heard. Also, IUMA.com is a good place to have a free webpage and promote one's concerts, CDs, etc. I learned about both from other Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:47 PM

SmokeyJoe - You are a personae after my own heart.

Wrote nearly ten years ago.....the philosophy of "THE Internet" is...what was once free to listeners 200 years ago....should continue to be free to listeners today.

Legislate, Compensate, Commiserate, Communicate, Arbitrate.....the bottom line is.....ever since pen touched paper, or device etched disk....the masses have become increasingly FREE of "da Man."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 12:01 AM

I knew a guy in a small Record Store in the late 1970's early 80's. That was when the Aussie Supermarket chains started to sell the top 40 LP's at $1 Aus off RRP. He was upset, because he made his "Bread & Butter" money from the Top 40, and could afford to keep in stock at least one copy of things he might sell only a few times a year or once a month - one of them being I remember Carole King's "Tapestries". Without the regular income from the Top 40, he could not afford to hold stock of such irregularly requested items, and all the little Record Shops died, as had the little Bookshops a few years before when the Chains started to sell paperbacks in the same way.

I wonder if places like Amazon, etc have stuffed it for the CD Stores now... after all SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE is buying the stuff.

Robin

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 12:06 AM

Arnie, I just wrote a long post to answer you. And then I purposely deleted it. The gist of what it said was that, yes, I think you are correct. If there was a right time for me to become disabled and unable to pick, I feel that this is that time. I've not seen a time when the songs I cared so much about were taken less seriously. But that's just CHANGE. The more things change, the more they get different.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: fogie
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 05:46 AM

All the good times are past and gone for recordings of folk?
I really dont want to be pretentiously philosophical about music, but we can't make people like what we like, and my tastes have become more complex over time. I've now come to the conclusion that there isnt much out there that is innovative enough to spend precious time searching for. If it's that good I'll hear about it sooner or later.
Thats not to say that the performers out there arent committed or skilled, but rarely do new CDs remain on the player for long because in most cases hope outweighs performance. I still play, but have no illusions about others wanting to keep recordings of my work. We appeal to our peers do we not ,they are the ones who can appreciate us in the context of time .We may have missed our chances to influence a younger generation but we still have our friends
I remain grateful for all the groundbreaking recordings that influenced me, and changed my ideas about music when I was younger,that is, in the UK, Shirley Collins, Martin Carthy, Steeleye and Fairport and so on, and I don't want to evolve into someone ,who like Bowie or Madonna takes bold new directions,to be popular, because I dont on the whole like what they do.
I hope to continue to love the past music I set my heart on and I occasionally find a whole new stash of music that comes from other parts of the world - for example what I have been playing more than anything else over the last 3 years is Gallician music (sort of continental celtic) and early recordings of Jazz. Prior to that I was immersed in anglo-french music. These new directions come by chance ,from programs on radio, or friends , or Mudcat suggestions. I then explore the music on the internet if I can find it.
My biggest satisfaction comes from letting others hear this new stuff, and to continue to expand the boundaries of my playing abilities. Most CDs I now order from the net. I dont understand MP3 yet, I'd be surprised if my sort of music is on MP3 anyway.
God knows how Carthy et al. manage to keep their enthusiasm about their oevre over decades! I have the advantage of not having to make money from an art form, and feel happy following whatever direction my musical heart falls for at any particular time. I say it's mine and others loss if they dont like any particular sort of music, and am happy for what there is, and when it comes.

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: Candyman(inactive)
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 08:42 AM

Then why are CD sales higher now than they've ever been?

They're not.

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,Rain Dog
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 08:53 AM

Album sales are up in the UK for the 12 months ending 2003

Far more albums are available nowawdays. Just not easy getting to listen to them all.

Anyway as Homer Simpson said to Elton John ' I love your music. I tape all your songs off the radio . "

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 10:17 AM

It is my understanding from what I've read that record companies have generally lost around 20% of their market in the last year alone - we're talking billions of dollars. This is directly related to copying and downloading. That's why Universal has dropped their CD prices substantially in hopes that sales won't dwindle completely. Artists need to have some financial incentive to record new material rather that just do it for promotional reasons or just for the love of the music they do. It costs a few bucks to put out a good recording project, and it would be nice to make the money back that's invested or even perhaps make a good profit for the effort.
Of course the internet is THE Place to market and buy CDS now, and it is fast becoming common place for downloading the music you want either for free or by fee - and is replacing the expensive purchase of a CD in comparison.

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 12:17 PM

I spent most of my life as a music-free zone. Or rather, as a music-buying-free zone. I bought books, lots of them, but didn't feel I could afford to buy records.

Sure, I sang, listened to music on the radio, even went to the occasional session.

Then CD copying arrived, and people were givng me their favourite CDs, ripped. I got interested. I started copying myself; I started *buying* CDs. Now I have a groaning bookcase full of them - about a third bought, two-thirds copied.

Last week I bought two CDs I'd had for ages as copies: Pirates' Choice and Thimar.

I bought them for two reasons: first, because I'd enjoyed the music so much that I wanted to pay the artists; second, because both are beautiful productions, with gorgeous artwork.

I've heard that the same thing happened when cassette players came out - the record industry tried to prosecute people, wailing that their bread was being snatched from their mouths. But when they produced beautiful albums with great information and luscious designs, people bought them for the sensual experience.

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:19 PM

"Then why are CD sales higher now than they've ever been?

They're not."

According to some sources they are...

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:36 PM

Well JTT - My guess is that you are not a musician who has produced a CD yourself, because if you were, wouldn't you be a little ticked off that one of your friends burned your project that he copied from someone else, and you still were trying to make your money back from the recording expenses? Are you really proud that you bought 1/3 of your CDS and stole the rest? You are a prime example of the reality of the situation! (1/3 is probably a lot more than other people pay for these days). Your sentiments on buying the music you originally pirated is very nice. I suggest you purchase all the others you stole, and then I'd say your reputation would be back in tact.

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 04:34 PM

Arnie, read what I posted carefully. I wouldn't have bought *any* of those CDs before I started copying. I think I owned two CDs two years ago, and maybe 10 tapes.

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 04:44 PM

I worry more about decent punctuation becoming 'history'...

Subject: RE: cd's will be history
From: Max
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 06:33 PM

You all worry too much. Just like people and any organism, we all find a way to survive, as will the music we like. Only 1% ends up in stores anyway, that's nothing new (Alan Lomax), the rest is on the net and at open mics, street corners and living rooms.