Origins: Earliest known English folk song

Subject: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Arnie
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:45 PM

At the end of the local folk club session on Friday, the discussion (after a few pints) turned to early English folk songs. I reckoned that the earliest known English folk song is 'I live not where I love'. I'm sure that Henry VIII'th either wrote it or sang it. No-one could think of any alternatives to this but the beer had dimmed thought-processes by then. Does anyone have any other contenders to the earliest known English folk song? Of course, this may involve having to define both English and folk song........

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: nutty
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:56 PM

The answer surely is as long as a piece of string.

The earliest published broadside in the Bodleian Library is dated as 1490 and is a fragment of a ballad about Robin Hood.

I can't believe that there were not folksongs earlier than that although they may never have been recorded.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:13 PM

And of course "I live not where I love" is not a folk song; it's more or an art song.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Jeanie
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:20 PM

There have been other threads on this subject here before (which are searchable and retrievable) - but here are a few more very early songs, that as far as I can see haven't yet been posted on Mudcat, listed in the Appendix to: "Looking for the Lost Gods of England" by Kathleen Herbert, publ. Anglo-Saxon Books:

As she states: "These songs were jotted down in post-Norman times... (but)...showing no Norman influence either in language or mood." In other words, content/style pre-date 1066.

1.
At a sprynge wel under a thorn
There was bote of bale, a lytel here aforn:
Ther biside stant a mayde
Fulle of love y-bounde.
Ho-so wol seche truwe love
Yn hyr ht schal be founde.

Trans.: "At the source of a spring under a hawthorn tree there was a cure for sorrow (or, a remedy against harm) a little while ago. Beside them stands a young girl full of love, held fast by love. Whoever wants to seek for true love will find it in her."

2.
Of everykune tre   (every species of tree)
Of everykune tre
The hawethorn blowet suotes    (blooms sweetest)
Of everykune tre.

My lemmon sse ssal be (Old English 'leofman' - loved one)
My lemmon sse ssal be
The fairest of erthkine (of Earth's kin)
My lemmon sse ssal be.

3.
Maiden in the mor lay    (moor)
In the mor lay
Sevenight fulle -
Sevenight fulle -
Maiden in the mor lay
In the mor lay
Sevenightes fulle and a day.
Wel was hire mete       (good.....food)
What was hire mete ?
The primerole and the - (cowslip or alternatively field daisy)
The primerole and the -
Wel was hire mete.
What was hire mete ?
The primerole and the violet.

[Additional Question and Answer verses]:
Wel was hire dring (drink)
The cheld water of the well-spring (chill, cold)

Wel was her bowr    (bower)
The rede rose and the lilye flour. (bower)

Kathleen Herbert suggests that the imagery in all of these may refer to water elves, to the Old English goddesses Freo and Eostre, and to the 'well-wakes': the worship of wells. In post-Conversion times, the well-wakes were especially associated with St. John's Eve - which in pre-Conversion times in England was the time for the Midsummer celebrations, known as Liða.

In other words, this stuff goes back a long, long way !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:34 PM

I've always had my doubts about Henry Henry VII having written the songs attributed to him. How could a brute who killed some of his wife's and invented a new religion so he could marry and divorce others have been at all sensitive.
Folk songs were sureley sung by folk - not monarchs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:39 PM

Isn't "Summer Is Icumen In" the oldest known English song?

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:06 PM

"Sumer is Icumen in" of about 1260 in MS seems to be the oldest verifiable English secular lyric and tune (see MS linked in thread 13004 by IanC, and careful transcription by Dixon in thread 39493); also other threads.
There are a handful of English religious lyrics that are perhaps a century older.
13004: Sumer
39493: Fart

Speculation about pre-Middle English songs is just that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:10 PM

Sorry! 39443: Fart

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:24 PM

GUEST,Van: Number one, it's well known that Henry was a handsome, athletic, personable, and very well educated--royally educated--man of his day, and an excellent musician, a good singer. It's unknown (at least to me) at what stage in his life the claimed authorship of various songs may have taken place. It could be that the songs were fairly early on in his life and the incidents of which you complain were later, when life may have coarsened him.

As to the "founding of a new religion", I think there are several things to be said. The line between religion and State, or religion and politics, was very indistinct in those days. In some high circles, religious institutions and practices were seen and used as a means of social control, which you may well see as cynical, but it was a fact that the Church was full of political and/or corrupt influence, with the papacy itself being at various times available for purchase or for assignment to political friends or family members. Indeed, one of the popes was only 11 years old when he took the papal throne, and one can hardly think that he received that eminence by his history of holy labors in the church. Given these observations, it may well be that Henry thought of his action in disassociating from the Roman Church more in terms of politics than of "founding a new religion". Indeed, after Henry and to this day the Church of England considers itself catholic--just not subject to Rome. Of course through many subsequent church-political and secular-political pressures Church of England practices and to some extent beliefs have changed a great deal from the Roman church's versions, but those should not all (if any) be laid at Henry's door.

In addition, given his known musical education and ability, I don't see any necessity of his being "sensitive" in order to write the songs with which he is credited.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:45 PM

Uncle_DaveO has said it very well. It may be added that the separation from the church in Rome influenced English thought and contributed to the actions that led to the growth of the British Empire, and the continued spread of other Protestant beliefs.

Nothing to do with Henry's ability as a composer, but his actions and those of his daughter Elizabeth I influenced the history of the Western World.
In any case, Henry (1491-1547) came over a century later than "Sumer...."

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 04:09 PM

Almost without *any* question, "Sumer is Icumen In"; another close contender is "Bryd one Brere" (circa 1300). Several others can be found here:

http://www.lyrichord.com/refe/ref8005l.html

Henry VIII had quite the reputation as the consummate Renaissance prince, with all the erudition, athletic prowess and musical ability that implies, and he certainly wrote "Pastyme With Good Companye". However, other tunes that have been attributed to him date from much later. Most famously, "Greensleeves", which had a tradition of his authorship associated with it, is unknown in any version before circa 1570s, well over 20 years after Henry's death in 1547.

While Bluff King Hal was undoubtedly a larger than life character, my vote for Most Impressive Tudor goes to Elizabeth I: the unwanted, cast-aside girl-child who grew up to be a role model for any thinking person of *either* gender (and a great patroness of the arts as well)!

D.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Jeanie
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 05:10 PM

There's an interesting page here (and also subsequent pages): Transition English Song Collections - Characteristics of Folk Poetry

I agree with you, Q, when you say: "Speculation about pre-Middle English songs is just that." As Desdemona says, several of the manuscripts date from around the same period. The date of a manuscript, however, may be very different from the date of origin of the material recorded in it. Although the manuscripts may be dated ca. 1260-1300, the songs themselves could have earlier, and different, origins. The pointers to their age must be the language used (i.e. presence or absence of Norman French influence in the vocabulary; presence or absence of Christian motifs and/or vocabulary).

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:09 PM

'The Cutty Wren' is supposed to be rather old (15th century?), but I dont know about proof.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:47 PM

If we are trying to date material from say c1200AD, presence or absence of Christian content doesnt seem to have a great deal of bearing on date. At that stage, Christianity had been around in England for c1000 years. Difficult to see why a Christian song should be assumed to be newer than a non-Christian one, anyway. For example, I would suggest that "Abide with me" is older than "Rock around the clock".
   Same with Norman v English speech. I could say "it's a load of bollocks" or "there are elements of some previous posts with which I'd have to register some minor disagreements". Both these remarks are contemporaneous.The first is substantially English, the second is substantially Norman French.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:32 PM

Unanswerable question- How long did it take the language of the Normans to influence the languages of the Isles?

What percent of Norman words do we find in the writings of 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500? (The early samples would be small and unreliable).
Do the written records of this time period accurately reflect the speech of Britons in (select area).

Thread 47959- Study of Cutty Wren- apparently nothing older than late 17th century. Cutty Wren

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 08:31 PM

"Sumer is Icumen in" is probably the oldest English song you are likely to actually hear anyone sing.

I've never thought of I live not where I love as sounding particularly old. I'd have guessed 19th or 18th century, though I see from a glance at earlier threads that it's got some 17th century roots.
....................

Looking for a favourite Tudor is a bit like looking for a favourite Don in some Mafia family. I'm sure that if Henry VIII had actually written a great song, he'd have made quite sure we all knew about it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:04 PM

I live not where I love was written by Peter Lowberry, and licensed for printing in 1638. Of course, it has changed over the years; "art song" or not in origin, it certainly survived in oral currency well into the 20th century, and therefore qualifies as a "folk song", where Somer is Icumen In - an archæological revival and not a popular survival- does not; but of course it (and Henry VIII) are invariably invoked in discussions of this kind, pretty much as a knee-jerk response.

I would disagree strongly with "Van" 's comment. We have moved beyond the old idea, I think, that "folk song" belonged particularly to "the folk"; much of what we think of as folk song nowadays was certainly common property with an earlier aristocracy. Such distinctions are essentially meaningless until we get to 20th century sociology.

The fact that a song was written down or printed a long time ago does not make it a "folk song". If we don't know the context, we can't attempt a useful categorisation; and, generally speaking, we don't have contexts for early lyrics. Kathleen Herbert's speculations on The Maid of the Moor, for example (mentioned above), appear rather fanciful and I doubt very much if they are capable of any sort of substantiation.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:12 PM

It depends on the definition of folk song. Probably, before the 19th century there was no idea of folk song, and the earliest one was not called "folk" at that time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:43 PM

I think so many of the nice devisions we now impose on music and religeon(s) are too convenient to us.

Re: Henry and Anglican Church

He was the head of a very long movement stretching back into Holland, as many of his advisors and philosophers were dutch. We tend to see the King as a seperate from most everything these days but I think even for Henry this must have represented not so much a new Church as a seperation of power from Rome and a clarification of the role he thought he should (or could) play in in the country. He was confident in the divinity of his throne (or at least its stability)and didn't need the Pope's support.

Our concept of 'folk' song is necessarily coloured by the need to give us handles to understand the wealth of modern music our society is awash in. I strongly doubt the people of the 13th century allowed themselves many learned divisions -- mostly it must have been 'right' and 'wrong' songs (pagan\historical vs liturgical christian). I guess multiple classifications for music is an improvement on simply suppressing the past.

* The pagan\historical songs themselves certainly displaced other songs and had their own issues. Its just that the rise of literacy allowed for a markedly coordinated assault on the aural tradition so displacement was more complete and effective.

Is middle-english part of the arguement?
Is melody necessary or just lyrics? Are lyrics necessary?

Its fun to postulate and look for a small range of candidates but we are very unlikely to agree on one answer.

Sigurd


(Personally, whenever I look at the wealth of art in the public domain I have to ask who let our society as a whole stop contributing to it in any reasonable fashion. Guess we have our suppression too.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:50 PM

Guest, Van,

I remember an interview with Steve Reich where was comparing the work of Wagner with one of Wagner's contemporaries. I don't remember this other composer's name, but Reich said that he was known to be quite a compassionate humanitarian and very vocal against inequality and brutality in the world. And Wagner is known to have been quite the racist bigot and a thouroughly unpleasant human being. And Reich had trouble resolving himself to the fact that Wagner's work far outclassed the nicer composer's (to the point that I can't even recall the man's name).

So artistic merit by no means guarantees sensitivity and compassion. Picasso was famous for being a thorough bastard to all the women in his life. (he's not my favourite artist, but many critics consider him a genius).

Henry VIII was the quintessential Renaissance Man, by all accounts. I have no trouble believing he wrote several songs. He didn't like being left out of anything (hence his many wives).

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 03:45 AM

Hard to say with certainty what the tune or song was, but it most likely came from Ireland.[gottta go, I hear a pint calling. Cheerio, and all that.] :)

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: IanC
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 04:09 AM

You might consider Caedmon's Hymn here. First performed around 650 ad and recorded by Bede around 700-720. No tune, i'm afraid.

;-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 04:10 AM

I always thought that the Outlandish Knight was a very old trad ballad, as sung by Fred Jordan and similar

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Jeanie
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 04:52 AM

Greg and Q: My argument is simply that if an English song has vocabulary including words of Norman French origin, it is post 1066. If it is of Christian basis, it is clearly post- Anglo-Saxon conversion period (ca. 600 AD). Songs without these two elements (i.e. pure Old English vocabulary with no Norman French input; no Christian input/content) *could* (and I stress *could*) be much older than the extant manuscripts on which they are written.

I agree wholeheartedly that the further back in time one goes, the more everything can only be open to speculation, as in the case of Kathleen Herbert's suggestions. Also, let's not forget that very few songs were ever actually written down at all - this is a thoroughly oral tradition, so any discussion of "the earliest song" can not be based solely on the dates of surviving manuscripts. Vocabulary and content can serve as very useful clues to the comparative age of a song. Whereas in speech and in prose writing, with the incoming of the Norman French influence, alternative words often became available for one object/concept (i.e. the Old English and the Norman French word), in *song*, because of the constraints of rhyme and rhythm, the Old English words in a pre-Conquest song would be retained.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: masato sakurai
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:11 AM

Related threads:

Oldest European Folk Song

Origins: history of folk songs

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 06:36 AM

Lots of food for thought. I tend to agree with McGrath of Harlow that 'Sumer is Icumen in' is the oldest folk song that is still sung as I've heard someone do it at a folk club - however, I can't remember if it was sung or spoken (does it come with a tune?).Other candidates are of archaeological interest only as they have died out in the oral tradition and are mainly now of scholarly interest only. Still, an interesting subject to while away a few hours on a chilly January night!

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:34 AM

Without wishing to open up the whole argument about what constitutes folk music or what constitutes English...;-)

If we look at the question "Earliest known English folk song" it has distinct parts. Firstly - Earliest known. I take that to mean earliest recorded. We can all assume that the cave men sang songs but there is no proof - so it is not 'known'. Known, I think, can only mean something that can be proved?

Secondly, English. As the English are very much a mongrel nation and can lay claim to many influences besides the Normans and Saxons already mentioned. I think we can only safely say 'In England' as this encompasses all the races that have gone to make up this country.

Finaly, folk song. What is a folk song? Huge question! I think we should exclude sacred and classical as being for the people but not of the people. Does that make sense? So, in a nutshell, folk music in this context being music as written and performed by the ordinary, everyday folk?

So the refined question may look more like 'Earliest recorded instance of music written and performed by people in England'. Bit long winded but am I on the right lines? If so perhaps you may agree that the Romans now must have a valid clain here!

Very quick research gave me this passage -

"Bishop Ambrose started a musical tradition of church songs written in Latin and based on Roman folk songs to appeal to the populace." So, we know that the Romans had folk songs. They were also resindent in England for 50 years before Christ and 400 years after. They also recorded things.

So, any of you historians out there that can come up with a Roman folk song that may well have been sung by the lads tramping along Hadrians wall may well be able to answer the question definitively!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Daithi
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:48 AM

I've also come across a mediaeval tradition - the name of which escapes me for the nonce - in which secular words are sung to a religious song AT THE SAME TIME, to provide a kind of harmony/counterpoint. These are often in Middle English and may be the origins of some "folk" songs, building on an earlier religious theme.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: John P
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 09:31 AM

This is a reasonably interesting thread, but every time I see a discussion like this I am faced with the question: "Who gives a rat's ass?" If you find a song you like, go sing it. If you find a song you don't like, don't sing it. What does its age have to do with it? Is there some inherent quality imparted by oldness that is escaping me?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 09:52 AM

No inherent quality in age, John. I think what may be escaping you more is an understanding of the quest for knowledge! Lot's of people, including me, do 'give a rat's ass'. Not because it makes the song any better but so we can bore the pants of people with and endless supply of useless information;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 09:56 AM

then there are those who do entertainment in historical or psuedo-historical settings.

For myself - while I don't stick to historically accurate pieces - knowing which ARE historically accurate and/or "current" to the period can help choose what you DO sing/play.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:27 AM

I've always thought that the main claim for Somer is Icumen In is that it is about the earliest secular song where we not only have the lyrics, but also have a notation of the tune. In the 11th century, literacy was quite a rarity and the ability to notate music much more so. In fact both skills were most likely to be found amongst clerics, and therefore early recorded music tended to be religious.

It is very possible that the words of many "folk" songs date back an exceedingly long way, but the changes in usage and style of language (basic folk process) have modified these lyrics beyond recognition. The notion of "Folk Music" wasn't really around until the latter half of the 19th century and many of the versions of "Folk Songs" were only actually written down and notated then. There were also many broadsheet and theatrical composers (Gay, Dibden etc) and collecters (Playford etc) who tended to muddy the waters by their own compositions and modifications.

The "Earliest Folksong" debate is a bit of a waste of time because very few modern folksingers would wish to sing early or middle English lyrics anyway, and I suggest that most audiences would find them rather obscure. Mind you Linda and I keep meaning to learn "Watkins' Ale" which although not easy to sing (it keeps changing time signature) would probably amuse some of our audiences - on the other hand, it only dates from Elizabethan times.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:42 AM

According to Gershon Legman and others ' Somer Is Icumen In ' is the oldest known written down poem. It is also According to Legman, a limerick.
eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 12:11 PM

I can't remember the exact episode but I watched Howard Goodall's history of music series and he dedicated a whole program to the 'invention' of music notation which, as I recall, was VERY late (maybe 1400s). Anyone remember it? What that would mean of course is that NOTHING was recorded prior to that except by commitment to memory. True folk methodolgy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 12:17 PM

Since poetry and song are such kindred spirits, and because I love the Ezra Pound parody, I will post this little tidbit. It comes from
this page. There are footnotes numbered "3" and "4" in here, but I can't find where the notes themselves are located. --SRS


Ezra Pound - "Winter is icumen in"

Translation is by no means the only vehicle whereby literary minds can practice the art of derivative historicism. Ezra Pound's "Winter is icumen in" demonstrates what ingenious mischief this "objectionably modern" and "objectionably antiquarian" poet (in the sympathetic words of T. S. Eliot) could wring from an anonymous thirteenth-century rota. First, the text of "Sumer is icumen in" (c. 1260):

Sumer is icumen in, / Spring has come in,
Lhude sing, cuccu! / Loudly sing, cuckoo!
Groweth sed and bloweth med / Grows the seed and blooms the meadow
And springth the wude nu. / And the woods springs now.
Sing, cuccu! / Sing, cuckoo!               

Awe bleteth after lomb, / The ewe bleats after the lamb,
Lhouth after calve cu / The calf lows after the cow
Bulloc sterteth, bucke ferteth. / The bull leaps, the buck leaps, twisting.

Murie sing, cuccu! / Merrily sing, cuckoo!
Cuccu, cuccu, / Cuckoo, cuckoo,            
Wel singes thu, cuccu. / Well sing you, cuckoo.
Ne swik thu naver nu! / Nor cease you ever now!

Sing cuccu nu, sing cuccu! / Sing cuckoo now, sing cuckoo!
Sing cuccu nu, sing cuccu! / Sing cuckoo now, sing cuckoo!3


Pound's notorious parody goes thus:

Winter is icumen in,
Lhude sing Goddamm,
Raineth drop and staineth slop,
And how the wind doth ramm!
Sing: Goddamm.
Skiddeth bus and sloppeth us,
An ague hath my ham.
Freezeth river, turneth liver,
Damn you, sing: Goddamm.
Goddamm, Goddamm, 'tis why I am, Goddamm,

So 'gainst the winter's balm.
Sing goddamm, damm, sing Goddamm,
Sing goddamm, sing goddamm, DAMM.4


Perhaps even more than Eliot himself, Pound embodied the paradoxical essence of the "modern" artist, at once fiercely defiant of—and proudly devoted to—tradition. Pound's passion for history took the form of numerous adaptations of Provençal and early Italian poems, a version of The Seafarer (tenth century), and even translations of the Chinese author Li Po, which laid the foundation for the richly allusive language and culturally diverse imagery of the Cantos. Earlier in his career, he helped establish the Imagist school of poetry, whose emphasis on clarity, conciseness, stylistic economy, and the elimination of meter and rhyme was derived from his study of the classical poetry of Japan and China.5

T. S. Eliot credited Pound with having been "more responsible for the XXth century revolution in poetry than any other individual." That this revolution was founded on a profoundly learned historicism strangely contradicts the exaggeratedly iconoclastic pretensions of modernist theory and criticism.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 12:27 PM

"Sumer is icumen in, / Spring has come in,"

On the same basis as you might have "Autumn is a-coming" in being equated with "Summer has come in", or "Spring is a-coming in" meaning the same as "Winter has come in"...

Seems a bit shaky to me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 12:30 PM

Maybe the missing footnote explains that summer/spring problem? I don't have time to poke around the site now, but if someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll have a go at it later.

SRS

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 12:44 PM

Musical notation was used by Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) so in its various forms is at least 1000 years old. Did the Romans have notation for tunes played on the hydraulus (organ) or did each performer apply his own music?

Examples

As pointed out by Dave Bryant, literacy was rare in the 11th-16th c. so written or notated music is not really folk.

Religious music excluded? This would, in America, leave out the spirituals.

Thanks, Stilly R S, for Pound's parody. I had lost my copy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:33 PM

Wasn't the earliest written music Gregorian chant? 600 AD or so. For accurate liturgical purposes I understand there was written movement of pitch, but I wonder if there was any attempt to apply it to song in the years before the development of the multi-lined staff.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:00 PM

Link Error- sorry!
Notation: Musical Notation Bingen
Plainchant was notated as early as the 8th century, so says an encyclopaedia.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:08 PM

What about the songs that served the purpose of passing down historical information orally? In pre-Roman Europe, the Druidic Bards would have served that function, woud they not? Surely there were people in what is now England before the Normans, Saxons, Angles, and Romans, who had this tradition? If it were up to me, I would certainly put this type of song in the category of 'folk' music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:23 PM

You'd have to find it first!

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:52 PM

The topic has strayed from old "English" songs into the realm of "what consitutes English" and "what influenced English" as all of these European origins come into it. That's okay, it keeps the thread intersting, but from the point of a purist looking for the first documented folk song in English, is it still "Sumer is icumen in"? Is there church stuff that is earlier?

SRS

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 04:08 PM

The website which reproduces the MS copy of "Sumer...." states the Manuscript contains other pieces (the songs all religious), and Latin and French texts including the "Lais" of Marie de France.
Sumer

Several sites mention prior religious texts; perhaps someone can locate them. If plainchant was notated in the 8th century, it is likely that Mss were prepared in the British Isles, but they may be all in Latin or French.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 06:29 PM

CarolC: youre obviously quite right there were folk songs before the English, the Romans, the Normans. And certainly before the murderous Celts with their iron swords eliminating all the culture that had gone before. I would bet plenty of money that the builders of Stonehenge had some lovely songs. Ever since there were folk here, there will have been folk music. But alas, we dont have a great a great deal of information on what it sounded like. The thread title asks for "earliest known English folk song. And until some new clever kind of DNA sound retrieval comes up, something of the era of "Summer is icumen in" is likely to be as early as we're going to get. Not that that should stop us speculating.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 07:24 PM

Let's be less parochial - are there any older songs still extant in any culture? I mean, where there is some kind of contemporary evidence indicating that a song being sung today was being sung at some distant period.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE AGINCOURT CAROL
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 09:00 PM

One of my old favorite old, old songs is

THE AGINCOURT CAROL
Owre kynge went forth to Normandy,
With grace and myyt of chivalry;
The God for hym wrouyt marvelously,
Wherefore Englonde may calle, and cry
Chorus: Deo gratias
Deo gratias Anglia redde pro victoria.
He sette a sege, the sothe for to say,
To Harflue toune with ryal aray;
That toune he wan, and made a fray,
That Fraunce shall rywe tyl domes day.
Chorus

Then went owre kynge, with alle his oste,
Thorowe Fraunce for all the Frenshe boste;
He spared 'for' drede of leste, ne most,
Tyl he come to Agincourt coste.
Chorus

Than for sothe that knyyt comely
In Agincourt feld he fauyt manly
Thorow grace of God most myyty
He had bothe the felde, and the victory
Chorus

Ther dukys, and erlys, lorde and barone,
Were take, and slayne, and that wel sone,
And some were ledde in to Lundone
With joye, and merthe, and grete renone
Chorus

Noe gratious God he save owre kynge,
His peple, and all his wel wyllynge,
Gef him gode lyfe, and gode endynge,
That we with merth mowe savely syng
Chorus

Certainly NOT a folk song. Indeed, even the author (if that's the word) is known, and the tune. But, well and solemnly sung, it's gorgeous! Written by Henry VI's house minstrel, so to speak, after the victory in France.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 09:18 PM

Agreed that it's a lovely song, but it was Henry V (reigned 1413-1422) that was the hero of Agincourt.

D.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:57 PM

Here the Agincourt Carol is sung (scroll down to victory song and click): Agincourt

Yes, Henry IIII + I.

Maybe it sounds better when Uncle_DaveO sings it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Little Robyn
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 02:40 AM

How about the songs that go with the pagan May festivals at Padstow or Helston. The words of the songs have kept evolving and there is no 'proof' of their antiquity except they have been handed on by oral tradition for hundreds of years. I suspect the sentiments have remained while some of the words became garbled.

Unite and unite and let us all unite
For summer is a-come unto day,
And whither we are going we will all unite
In the merry morning of May.

That's one recent version but who talks like that these days?
Nowadays you can buy a songsheet so the words have become standardised and unchanging. In the future, researchers might class them as Victorian, judging by the language and the tune structure, because that was when the songs became set in print.
But local tradition has it that the festivities date back to pre-christian times. That would make these words living evolutions of the earliest songs of the 'folk'. I wish I knew how the Padstow song sounded then!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:12 AM

Pastow and Helston songs in pre-Christian times would not have been in English, for a start. So to refer to modern songs as garbled versions of pre-Christian songs sounds a bit fanciful to me.People have doubtless greeted the summer in song for thousands of years, and will continue to do so. But that doesnt mean there cant be several different songs on the subject, rather than one song that slowly evolves, which is what Little Robyn seems to be suggesting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 09:14 AM

This is probably 14th century:

Icham of Irlaunde
Ant of the holy londe
Of Irlande.

Gode sire, pray ich the,
For of saynte charite,
Come ant daunce wyt me
In Irlaunde.

"saynte charite" is Norman looking, so it might not be one of the earliest, but hey, there was an Irish music scene going on in Englend even then.

Greg: I can't see why pre- Christian English songs wouldn't have been in English (or Anglo-Saxon as we call it now). Is there any evidence that the dance was Cornish rather than a later import, perhaps from elsewhere?

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 09:42 AM

Q:

The Agincourt Carole doesn't sound better when I sing it, because I don't sing it. I am intimidated by the beauty of Richard Dyer-Bennet's version. Which is quite different from the version in the link given above.

Incidentally, that link gives the attribution as "anon". I don't remember the name any more, but the name of the originator is known, found it on the web a year or so ago.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:31 AM

Quite a lot of the floor singers I see around these days don't seem to have any "known" folksongs - they seem to need the words in front of them !

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:45 PM

Jeanie you are a star! I have been looking for "maiden in the moor lay" for AGES!!!! I came across it years ago in a poetry book (the words were updated a bit though - and its was "primrose and meadowsweet" for her meat), and I wrote a tune for it so I could sing it. Eventually I forgot the words & couldn't remember which book it was in & was left with fragments. Now I have it back again - thank you!
I had no idea it ws so old though! It was a very ordinary poetry book. I may have to hunt through for it again just to see what it attributes it to.

Kris

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Jeanie
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 01:12 PM

Glad to be of service, Kris. Oooh, that has quite made my day :)

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 01:15 PM

Guest Van, you might like to look up the life and the gentle, sensitive music of Gesualdo.

Oh, nice poems about maidens and trees. Like them a lot.

Why does it matter what's the oldest? Ah, you have to water the roots, man!

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 02:14 PM

Re pre-Christian songs not being in English. The Padstow and Helston May songs were being talked about. My point is that the English language was unknown in Cornwall till well after Christian times. So there may have been songs then, but they werent in English.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:30 AM

For the less parochial approach see this old Mudcat thread:

Oldest European folksong.

I've never seen an older reference than the one by Wilfried in that thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:50 AM

Perhaps I should mention that Caedmon's hymn (which I mentioned earlier) is not only a folk song according to any definition. It is also regularly sung, albeit in a modern translation ... it appears as "Stewards of Earth" in a number of modern hymn books.

:-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:09 AM

If you look at the history of English language it was a minority dialect spoken in southern England and not fully adopted by the 'English' until after we were defeated by the French around 1200 and it was decided to replace French as the main language of the court.

It was authors like Chaucer who wrote in the early English and did much to popularise it's use over a wider area.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:08 AM

What!

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:43 AM

Some 40 pieces of ancient Greek music are preserved. Notated scores go back with them to 600 BC. The Epitaph of Seikilos, about 1st c. BC, mentioned by Wilfried, is notated, but only the first line is preserved. For convenience, here is the translation:

Shine, as long as you live; do not be sad.
Because life is surely too short and time demands its toll.

It is a skolion, or drinking song, but what the basis for this is, I don't know. The fragment is discussed on many sites; the notation changed into modern form may be seen here: Seikilos

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 01:43 PM

Couple of clangers there Shanghaiceltic ... Chaucer wrote in modern English, albeit a bit strange-sounding now. The French never defeated the English (if that's who you mean by 'us'); the Normans were the successful combatants near Hastings in 1066 and brought with them what we now call 'Norman French.' They were, as the name suggests, Norsemen who had occupied that part of what is now France for a couple of hundred years. Indeed, William's claim to the throne of England was based on his marginally-better-that-Harold's claim. The ordinary inhabitants of England disliked William only a bit more than they disliked Harold. Except people in County Durham, upon whom he committed genocide.

Oddly, there are no songs about that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:14 PM

Chaucer wrote in what is commonly referred to as middle English.

Shouldn't this question really be "what is the oldest recorded song of the British Isles?" rather than limiting it to English in its various forms?

SRS

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From:
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:22 PM

I know that the discussion has drifted away from Henry VIII references, appropriately so, but I can't help mentioning- Isn't it a bit difficult to verify the veracity of the praise given to Monarchs? After all, being in the disfavor of them brings hard reward. The opinion of the common folk is often not recorded, and they had little chance to get more than a glimpse anyway. The view of courtiers is slanted, what prince in their view is ugly, untalented, unlearned or uncaring? The view of visitors is still slanted, as they were often dependent upon the good will of the visited monarch, take Erasmus, for instance, in the case of Henry VIII.

So when the prince is heralded as magnificent at music, learning, riding, archery, poetry, singing, and all things "Renaissancian", well, perhaps, but who cared to try to best him at anything?

Sorry to go on, but I've rather had a facination with the whole time period, and with Henry in particular.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:29 PM

SRS ... one large slice of humble pie please ... ;o)

Subject: Lyr Add: THE VICAR OF BRAY
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 03:00 PM

wschultz, this view suggests absolute power on the part of a monarch, with the subsequent suppression of any ideas or opinions expressed to the contrary of those held by that monarch. Total acceptance by court members. This just can't be. There may be a degree to which these ideas aren't expressed out loud in the presence of that monarch or their close allies, but contrary opinions certainly existed, even regarding such simple issues as musical talent.

Rather than trying to verify the accuracy of praise of any monarch, compare it with what you can of their detractors. Scan the records of the period and weigh the information and decide from there. To say you can't trust reports of Henry's talent is akin to saying no Royal can have talent because they're Royal. You are looking at a group of people raised in incredible privilege and exposed to the best scholarship and culture the land had to offer. Some of it may have rubbed off! I wouldn't go so far as to say that anyone on the throne automatically took the best advantage of the opportunities put before them (just look at today!). But some of them surely did!

I will conclude my display of logic with the following evidence for your position, just to be fair (and because I love the song!):


THE VICAR OF BRAY

In good King Charles' golden days, when loyalty no harm meant,
A zealous high churchman was I, and so I gained preferment.
To teach my flock, I never missed
Kings are by God appointed
And damned be he who dare resist or touch the Lord's annointed.

cho: And this be law, I shall maintain
Until my dying day, sir
That whatsoever king may reign,
Still I'll be the Vicar of Bray, sir.

When royal James usurped the throne, and popery came in fashion,
The penal laws I hooted down, and read the Declaration.
The Church of Rome, I found, did fit
Full well my constitution
And I had been a Jesuit, but for the Revolution.

cho:

When William was our King declared, to ease the nation's grievance,
With this new wind about I steered, and swore to him allegiance.
Old principles I did revoke
Set conscience at a distance,
Passive obedience was a joke, a jest was non-resistance.

cho:

When Royal Anne became our queen, the Church of England's glory,
Another face of things was seen, and I became a Tory.
Occasional conformists base
I blamed their moderation;
And thought the Church in danger was from such prevarication.

cho:

When George in pudding time came o'er, and moderate men looked big, sir
My principles I changed once more, and I became a Whig, sir.
And thus preferment I procured
From our new Faith's Defender,
And almost every day abjured the Pope and the Pretender.

cho:

The illustrious house of Hanover and Protestant succession
To these I do allegiance swear --- while they can hold possession.
For in my faith and loyalty
I never more will falter,
And George my lawful king shall be --- until the times do alter.

cho:


SRS

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:28 AM

Interestingly "The Vicar of Bray" is probably a good example of a song which appears to be from one period, but in reality dates back to an earlier time. The monarchs named (Charles II, James II, William III/Mary II, Anne, George I) span the period from 1650 - 1727. However, the actual man involved is thought to be "the singing vicar" Simon Alleyn who was the vicar of Bray (Berkshire near Maidenhead) from 1523 to 1565 -the even more turbulent times of the reformation (Henry VIII, Edward VI, Jane Grey, Mary I, Elizabeth I).

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:55 PM

The problem with Sumer is icumen in, Caedmon's Hymn, Greensleeves, etc, is that usually we need some indication that a song was available in oral circulation before we call it a folksong. So these songs may be old, but we don't know that they were in oral circulation until modern times.

Looking for evidence of oral transmission sets up some arbitrary limits (how many people have to know it?, etc.) But it's a good rule of thumb for very old texts. Otherwise, you could have an item that exists in one manuscript (like Beowulf) and claim it was a folksong. Looking for such evidence creates a subsequent problem as well: the further back in time you go, the less likely you are to find such evidence, even if the song was in fact in oral circulation. Because not so much was written down, because manuscripts have been lost, etc. So we are left with the older material, saying things like "this might have been a folksong." The degree of certainty you require will heavily affect the answer.

There's another problem with the question, too. Some of the ballads we have in English are clearly what folklorists would call versions of international types. The Scandinavian versions are far older, as the ballad form seems to have existed there first. Thus, does a ballad like "the two sisters" count from its first appearance, or its first appearance in English?

Also, we have some ballads, such as "Bangum and the Boar," ("Wild Hog in the Woods," etc), which are clearly derived ultimately from medieval romances. When it ceased to be a romance (probably read or recited aloud) and turned into a song (sung with a tune) is unknown. Do we count the earliest romance versions? Or (our only other option) take a wild guess?

And John, if you're looking for someone who gives a Rat's Ass, in the folklore world you'd go to what Vladimir Propp would call a "magical donor." Try helping out some old hag on a streetcorner. If you're lucky, she'll turn out to have a magic Rat's Ass she can give to you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 01:40 PM

Thanks, SRS for your view. Strictly speaking, I don't think sugesting that evidence of a proposition (i.e., "the king is great") may be unreliable is equivilant to saying "No king can be great". What I suggest is that those who were in positions to comment, and whose comments could be preserved and come to us for our review at this late date, more often than not had significant reasons, other than the truth, to color their observations. And there was no mass media for the commonfolk who were more out of that direct sphere of influence, to convey their thoughts.

As for absolute power, well, no. But Norfolk's warning to Thomas More (Disobedience to Princes is Death) was not exactly an idle observation in Henry's time.

And thanks for the Vicar of Bray lyric, and for the pleasant discussion of these thoughts.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 02:33 PM

This thread seems to have wandered into a discussion of the powers and natures of kings, also an interesting subject.
"The Vicar of Bray" (already in the DT) seems to be a late (18c?) popular remake of "The Tale of the Cobbler and the Vicar of Bray" by (?)Samuel Butler. Certainly not a folk song, but a political statement. See Charles Mackay, "Cavalier Songs and Ballads of England." Mackay says "'The Cobbler...' is of a date long anterior to the popular song 'The Vicar of Bray'."
I have not seen "The Vicar..." which is in The British Musical Miscellany, vol. 1.
In any case, this song is not the earliest English 'folk' song.

The book is online now at Cobbler

Some of the songs in "Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England," ed. Robert Bell, could be 'folk'. Some are attributed to the 15th c.
Poems

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: IanC
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 04:05 AM

Nerd

Caedmon's hymn was in oral circulation for 50-70 years before being recorded by Bede.

:-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 05:39 AM

"Caedmon's Hymn" I suppose must be called a religious work although it was not part of liturgical chant. Some question the validity of Bede's story, but, written by Caedmon or some anon. monk, it certainly is one of the earliest English poems.

I think the attempt to identify early song as 'folk' is wrong. Wouldn't it be better just to say 'English song' and not engage in rather fruitless speculation as to 'folk' origin?

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:00 AM

A bag of Anglo-Saxon poetic records: Anglo-Saxon

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 10:04 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM

Q,

yes, that is sensible when dealing with old texts. Whether something very old can also be considered "folk," for the reasons I gave above, is mere speculation in most cases. Even Caedmon's Hymn requires that we believe Bede's story is true, and that the song reached him by a process of oral transmission from person to person, neither of which is a certainty. And in fact most of the replies to this list have been about the oldest English songs, not "folk songs."

As you've pointed out, this does raise the whole question of Anglo-Saxon poetry. The best guess of most scholars is that much of this material was chanted or declaimed with harp accompaniment. Songs? Perhaps. English? Definitely. Folk? Probably not.

Also keep in mind that most folklorists today don't consider "folk-ness" to be a matter of origin, so "folk origin" is itself a red herring. Many of the ballads that have survived to the twentieth Century in oral tradition, like "Matty Groves," were probably of minstrel origin (i.e. created by professional songwriters generally for a noble audience). There does not seem to have been such a great divide in older times between what kinds of art were enjoyed by different classes of people, so these songs, once created, were circulated among all classes. Because of changing material circumstances, they were preserved primarily among poor, rural people. They did not, however, originate there.

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 02:42 PM

Q,

Vicar of Bray was posted as a humorous illustration of that part of the discussion, not to compete in the "oldest song" category. But the resulting references to it and it's antecedents are interesting.

Nerd, I have trouble with the intellectual chauvanism that puts forward the claim that songs somehow could be preserved among poor, rural people but did not "originate there."

SRS

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:07 AM

Stilly River Stage,

Your righteous anger on behalf of rural working class people baffles me. It's not a question of intellectual chauvinism. If I say that "Stewball" did not originate among African-American railroad workers, but was preserved there, I'm not being racist, nor making a slur against railroad workers. The simple fact is that "Stewball" originated in Ireland, probably with the broadside press. We know a good deal about the events to which it refers, and can fill in the rest fairly easily. Likewise, if I say that "Froggie Went a-Courting" was preserved among African-American singers, but did not originate there, I am stating a fact easy enough to prove; the song predates the African-American community itself.

It's similar with Child ballads. The so-called Child Ballads are a very heterogeneous set of texts with different origins. The best guess of most scholars is that some of them (not all) were composed by minstrels working for the wealthy. "Little Musgrave" is an example. Another class, like "Bangum and the Boar," as I said above, derive from known medieval Romances, so once again must have come from the literate, upper middle classes. Some ballads, like most of the Robin Hood corpus, are addressed directly to "yeomen," a middle class category. Others, like "our Goodman," use language that marks them as (most likely) products of the rural working class. Some are obviously from the Scottish Borders and refer directly to historical events there. Others, like "The Two Sisters" and "The Outlandish Knight" are based on old European originals, and their origins are lost in the mists of time.

Wherever they originated, material conditions changed. By the middle of the twentieth century, among the only groups of people who relied on homemade entertainment were the poor and working class. The ones most likely to sing old ballads, as opposed to light opera, tin pan alley songs, etc., were rural folks. So the songs were preserved mostly among rural, working-class people, whether they originated there or not.

How exactly does making these observations constitute "intellectual chauvinism"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 08:00 AM

The term 'chauvinism has gone through as many twists as an old and popular song. As a result, one must look at the speaker's intent to determine what is meant.
Nicholas Chauvin was a character in a long-forgotton 1825 play, "La Cocorde tricolore," who was excessively patriotic and devoted to Napoleon. In general, it suggests overdue attachment to some group or place.
Its most usual occurrence is in relation to superiority attitudes of males (in the first half of the 20th c. cartoons on the 'War between men and women' looked humorously at different attitudes of men and women- I forget the cartoonist).
Stilly seems to be applying it to the 'war between the classes'.

Preservation of the old 'folk' songs also must be attributed to interest on the part of a small group of educated collectors; from Bede through the authors of the 'miscellanies' and compilers of the 16th-20th centuries.
(I guess some would define this as a chauvinist attitude (in one of the current senses of the word).

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 12:13 PM

Nerd, that use wasn't the same as calling you a "male chauvinist pig" or other sort of name-calling. It simply implies a bias based upon the assumption of superiority of one class or individual, and is one that is leveled against academics on a regular basis, I might add.

I was implying that your argument attributes all of the creative energy to the top rungs of society and from there it would trickle down. (Folk-reaganomics?) We know that's not true today, so why would it be any more true hundreds of years ago? Who can say here that those trubadors and minstrels didn't knowingly mingle among the common folk to hear what they were singing, then tart it up or rework it for the upper-classes? Who was going to sue?

Humor me and look at theory for a moment, that has to do with literature and folklore. I particularly favor the work of Jean-François Lyotard, who suggests that within society, all societies give special privilege to storytellers and I would extend that to trubadors or minstrels. This means that this particular group is more easily able to move among the classes, and someone from a lower class, who is a good singer or storyteller, will rise to the top.

Your observations about the preservation of the songs makes sense--when a lowest-common-denominator situation exists (can't afford any or many other kinds of entertainment) then singing familiar songs and passing them down through the family is entirely logical. But if they were singing those songs, they were also singing songs of their own, and singing parodies, etc. It's human nature. I suggest there be an asterisk by songs from this period, to give more creative credit to the lower classes also. I want you to think that the lower classes contained a few nightingales, not just parrots.

SRS

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 12:25 PM

Yes, Stilly River Stage, I agree completely. My original post to which you took issue was referring only to some songs. I wasn't espousing a general theory, just pointing out what empirical observation suggests about a certain class of songs.

As a professional folklorist, my whole life is dedicated to documenting and pointing out that the so-called "lower classes" contain artistic geniuses of the highest order. This raises interesting issues that are being discussed on the "impressions of you" thread. Somehow that post above (30 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM) gave the impression that I didn't value the artistic creativity of poorer people. Whoops!

Subject: RE: Origins: Earliest known English folk song
From: Gray
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 02:06 PM

Bigpinklad, I am interested in your recent comment about William's "genocidal" attacks on the people of County Durham. Being completely unaware of this piece of British history I would like to know more. Can you help?

gray