BS: Cannerbis

Subject: BS: Cannerbis
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:13 AM

From today, in the Uk it is declassified, same as pane kliiers and aunty depressers, what do you think about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Micca
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 03:18 AM

well........;. like.............. wow!!.........

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Partridge
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:40 AM

I've never pressed my aunty for anything. On the whole its good news, particalerry for them thats got arthuriris and stuff.

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: BanjoRay
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:46 AM

Half a brick is a much better pane killer, and would depress your aunty at the same time. Sorry, John.
I wish they'd changed the law thirty years ago - I'd have been in less trouble!
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Micca
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:00 AM

as I was er.. mm... saying....like.. Wow!!!!
What IS this Stuff? Maui Gold?.. Lebanese?.........Wow!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Bobjack
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:05 AM

Do Boots the Chemist sell it now then jOhn? I fancy having a shot at some of this stuff. Does it turn you into a hippie though? I would hate that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:23 AM

To echo a saying of my grandad's, "Cannabis?! you don't even know how to *spell* it, lad!"

Graham.

(obviously he would be saying something other than "cannabis", but anyway ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:15 AM

...and you have Prince Harry to thank!

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:15 AM

It turned everyone I know who used it into hippies. I barely escaped with my normality!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:23 AM

I barely escaped with my normality

Yes, but then what did you do with it? (Stashed it under the floorboards, right)?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:56 AM

in California, normal IS abnormal.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Beardy
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:23 AM

Sorry jOhn but you're wrong.

Cannabis has been downgraded from a class B drug to class C. It is still illegal to possess or sell cannabis. However for small quantities you are likely to be given a caution re=ather than be prosecuted.
I could attach some blue clickys here for the whole story and practicalities in the change of law however I dont think you'd read them.
Legalisation would be welcome as it would cut the link being expounded that cannabis leads directly to heroin/cocaine use could be discredited. The only link IMO is that they both have to be bought from drug dealers therefore giving the dealers an opportunity to encourage use of other stronger drugs.
Stick to alcohol jOhn it comes in greater and tastier varieties.

Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:29 AM

Aunty depressers?

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Beardy
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:34 AM

Yes Kim, Uncles Saturday night specials.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:24 AM

My aunty was in the habit of insisting that Uncle whip out his depresser six nights a week. That's why she married him.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:32 AM

What they did was move Cannabis down from class B to class C, which woudl have meant you culdn't be arrested or jaile3d, just fined. Then, because they were scared about the press, they upped the penalties for class C somyou can now get arrested and jailed for possession of any of them.

In practice it's going to mean things continue to be done in an arbitary way according to where you live.

If they want to put young people off the stuff, they should legalise it for everyone over the age of, say, 50.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 12:39 PM

It isn't as if they've made it less harmful so why all the fuss?

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: open mike
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:03 PM

please post links to blickies regarding the actual story of this...

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: gnomad
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:35 PM

hope this works

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:39 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:44 PM

Smoking the stuff causes lung/throat/mouth cancer and emphysema, and no Doc worth his salt is going to prescribe that unless terminal illness is involved. You want a cannabis high?--eat the damn stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Bobjack
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 03:53 AM

Boab,
    there was a programme on the telly here no so long back about medical trials of cannabis for arthiritus sufferers, it seemed to do wonders for them. And it was administered in tablet form.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 05:41 AM

I'm surprised that jOhn didn't say "This thread is about a load of Shit" - he'd have been right for once.

Perhaps I should make a batch of Hash Cookies to celebrate - trouble is that it's been so long that I wouldn't know where score any these days (and I work in a university).

Perhaps we need a link to Micca's wonderful parody - The Hash my Father Scored.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Bobjack
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 06:02 AM

Any more of this dippy hippy druggy nonsense and I shall have to report you to the local constabulary! I thought folkies only drank real ale, not cannabis.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Micca
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:37 AM

and in true Bardic/topical style, an additional verse

But now to come right up to date
They've made the Hash "Class C"
It's no more harmful now they say
than a good strong cup of tea
and we'll smoke a joint to celebrate
and maybe bye and bye
they'll come to know that Hash
is natures way of saying "High!!
        That brown crumbly resin so fine
        In Liquorice Rizla, divine
        It would raise both the dying and the living
        That green grass and resin so fine

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 11:15 AM

LOL Micca - have to learn it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:59 PM

Great last verse Micca I like it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:28 PM

Did you hear about the raid on the British Columbia legislature? All the warrants are sealed but word has it that its all about trafficing in marijuana. Yeh - Ministry of Transport and the Federal Liberals. Guess we'll have to wait and see what its really all about but...

They won't legalize it because the taxes would never bring in as much money as the blackmarket.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 07:27 AM

My son's a Heroin addict. He's 23 and he's been on Smack for 5 years. His life's shite, his health is wrecked, he's no chance of finding a decent job or a girlfriend who isn't on Smack too. I've never used an illegal drug in my life (even cannabis) but my life, and his mother's, is dominated by his drug habit. From waking in the morning to going to sleep at night there's no respite and, in the brief periods he's off Smack he says he even dreams about getting a fix. He says Cannabis should be Class A. He started on it. They all start on it.

These Latter-Day Hippie Wankers who think cannabis is a hoot have got shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 08:55 AM

They all started on mother's milk, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: mooman
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 09:12 AM

Correct Boab...I much prefer the cookies! (also as a non-smoker!)

Peace

moo (off down the bakery)

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 10:03 AM

GUEST - I expect that most alcoholics could claim that they started with lemonade (sorry Mrs Lemon). About the only thing that canabis and heroin really have in common, as compared with tobacco and alcohol, is that they're illegal. Perhaps if hash was fully legalised, the fact that it would no longer have to be obtained from a person who probably also pushed hard drugs, would make it less likely to lead to anything further.

I know a lady in her late 60s. She edits a folk magazine, is a musician for a morris side, helps to run a very well known folk club, and manages the day-to-day accounts of a national charity. She also enjoys the odd joint - does that make her a "Latter-Day Hippie Wanker with shit for brains" ?

I must point out that I haven't smoked a joint for many years, although there was a time in my life when it was quite a regular habit. Probably my main objection to smoking hash is that I'm normally a non-smoker.

Now what was the recipe I used to use for the cookies . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 12:42 PM

Dave - Yes it does, and you too if you're so dim you can't make the connection. I'll explain:-

Of course not everyone who smokes pot becomes a heroin addict but sure as hell heroin addicts almost invariably begin with pot. My kid did. And they all think they're in control of it. Some, perhaps most, are, but some, too many, aren't - it's A-D-D-I-C-T-I-V-E (maybe not physically, but certainly psychologically). And then they lose control and don't realise, it's losing it's effectiveness and they need something stronger. The 'Now-Legal' hash has to be replaced with something far less legal. Enter the dealer, one step further down the line, but there nontheless. The dealer GIVES the stuff to them a few times. Then they owe him big-style. They're under his control, he gets them dealing too, to pay for their addiction, and on and on it goes. One youngster's life, and his family's, shot to hell by heroin is too many. We should be making it harder for kids to fall into the downward spiral, not easier. Not telling them that cannabis is harmless but shoving their faces into the shitty world it can lead to, and praying they take heed.

Don't preach to me just because you were a bit of a lad in your youth and got away with it - if you haven't lived with the misery and degradation of addiction you have absolutely no idea about it. It's with him, and his family,24/7/52/lifetime. No let-up. Sorry if I sound bitter, but pontificating P-C idiots who don't have to live with their kid's drug addiction give me the shits.

And sorry (genuinely) for posting incognito. I don't like to hide behind anonimity but I hope you'll at least understand that I'm not proud of his lifestyle and I prefer not to publicise his identity or mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 02:07 PM

Guest, firstly I fully understand why you are posting igcognito, and hope you respect my similar reasons for doing the same.
But I don't fully agree with you. Maybe all heroin addicts started on cannabis, but not all cannabis users turned to heroin, I would be interested in the figures both ways, if available.

Should we ban alcohol because some people, a minority of people, are unable to control their drinking to the point where it wrecks their lives?

Should we ban cars because some youths find joyriding stolen motors a suitable pastime, wrecking theirs and others lives.

How about prescription drugs too? Should we ban sleeping pills because some people are unable to function without them? Also wrecking their childrens lives, and what about the anti depressants that are handed out on a regular basis?

I agree with the comment above that were cannabis legalized, it would prevent the hash smoker venturing into a world where other drugs are widely available.They would not be the easy prey that they once were.

I also think that if this were to happen, it would not decrease the heroin abuse, there are some folk who will always seek out the illegal stimulant, and their first drug of choice would probably change to another illegal one.

Having said all that, and fully understanding why you will not agree, I do think that we should be putting our taxes/resources into providing as much support and help as we can, to ensure that the people who for whatever reason, have an internal self destruct button, can avail themselves of the help required,IF they choose to take it. I think that is where our responsibility ends.

There are countless rehab organizations out there, providing excellent help to those addicted to drug/alcohol. But the user has to WANT to be helped.And in order for them to be helped, they also have to accept responsibility for their own problem first. It isn't anyone elses fault that they became addicted. They may have been mitigating circumstances that fuelled their desire to escape reality, and those issues also have to be addressed/counselled too.

I work voluntarily at such a rehab centre, and have too many sad tales to tell. But also many success stories. I do empathise with what you are going through. The innocent family are as much of a victim as the user.But I also believe that legalizing cannabis will have no effect on the heroin or crack statistics. Meanwhile I really wish you, your son and your family all the luck in the world. Hopefully he wants to be helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 02:26 PM

Guest: I am truly sorry about your son's addictiont to heroin but the vast majority of people who smoke pot do not go on to heroin. You say, "it's losing it's effectiveness and they need something stronger."

Two things wrong with that statement. 1. The effect of cannabis and the effect of heroin cannot be equated. 2. Pot comes in many strengths. If he wanted something stronger, he could get stronger pot.

You have my sympathy, nobody wants to deal with addiction. Its horrible!

I guess you have to ask, "What effect was he looking for?"

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 03:20 PM

Plenty of people lead responsible adult lives and (unbeknownst to most of their neighbors) indulge in "cannerbis" regularly. How many? Hard to know, because the illegality is a very strong inventive to keep it a secret.

The only dope smokers who become known as such are those who get caught, one way or another. Understandably, statistical studies as well as people's informal observations are severely skewed by the invisibility of large numbers of moderate users who do not display any antisocial traits and therefore are not found out.

You know all those baby-boomers who'll tell you they "used to" get high, but don't anymore? That's the socially (and legally) acceptable thing to say, but it's not always entirely true.

I would also take issue with the idea that acquiring pot necessarily requires that one patronize a "drug dealer" who also sells heroin, etc. The sizeble population interested in cannabis to the exclusion of other drugs (well, except maybe alcohol) includes growers and sellers as well as buyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 08:22 AM

Thanks 'Guest' (#2?) for your response to my post above (and Dianavan and Poppagator too), especially for the kind words of support.

You're right, I don't agree with all that you three say, and I still believe that removing the first step entirely rather than making it easier is the sensible way. However, I also believe that the jury's still out on that one and who knows, I may be proved wrong. Otherwise, I respect your right to your views. For what it's worth (and you'll no doubt disagree with me again, but that's OK) I'd like to see greater controls on the use of alcohol and tobacco, a lowering of National and Motorway speed limits and a raising of the minimum driving age to 25 too. How radical is that!

My posting was put out there in blind anger (you probably guessed!) and the reason for that is the way others on this thread seem to view their own use of the drug which started my lad's problems as just a lark, a joke,something to feel big about. For some, maybe it is but for far too many others it's an irreversible step towards doom.

Anyway guys, thanks again for your good wishes, my boy's off H at the moment but on Methadone - bad enough but at least it's legal and he can function well enough to have got himself a place on a course at our local college of FE. Hope at last?

Peace :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Peg
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 09:57 AM

I too disagree that marijuana use necessarily leads to heroin addiction. The extant research simply does not support this. Even on an anecdotal basis, this is very flawed logic. I realize the scourge of heroin addiction must be very difficult for those who have experiences it in themselves or loved ones firsthand, but that is no reason to demonize a substance which, as has been pointed out here, is regularly enjoyed by many, many, many intelligent, educated and productive members of society, and at no detriment to their health or social interactions.

If you're going to blame cannabis for being the "gateway drug"   that leads to heroin addiction, you may as well blame nicotine, caffeine, sugar and alcohol, too; ALL of which are physically addictive. Marijuana does not cause physical addiction, nor does stopping its use cause 'withdrawal' symptoms.

Please don't call people uninformed or 'dim' unless you have actually bothered to read the scientific literature yourself, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 11:08 AM

Don't worry about whether marijuana leads to anything else. Marijuana of itself is bad for your health, wastes your money, and damages your chromosomes so you may have unhealthy children. What more do you need to know?

Oh, and it stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 11:35 AM

Peg, thank you for your kind and compassionate response to my posting. If you read my later one, above, you will hopefully understand that my earlier ones were born of the agony my family and I have been subjected to for the past few years, and the almost-unbearable rage I feel against anyone and everyone who is involved in the sale and use of illegal drugs.

I'm so utterly sick and tired of having virtually every second of my life dominated by drugs, talk of drugs (because I've found that druggies have little else to talk about) and the dregs of humanity who benefit from the trade in drugs, that I can hardly be bothered to get involved in a discussion with you or anyone else about whether cannabis is addictive (and as a former Youth Worker I HAVE read a very great deal of literature in this regard, and dealt with many young users, and I've come to the conclusion that, whilst perhaps not physically addictive, there is very strong evidence that it can and does lead to psychological dependency). You say in your post that it's 'regularly enjoyed by many, many intelligent, educated and productive members of society' (as if that piece of red-herring BS makes it OK!) - doesn't the fact that they feel the need to use it regularly suggest just ever-so-slightly that there may be a small degree of psychological dependency there? There are a lot of intelligent, educated alcoholics and heroin addicts out there too - intelligence and education is not an effective barrier against dependency.

BTW Dianavan - if you're still there, he moved on to amphetamines when cannabis no longer gave him the effect, he couldn't get the high any more (his explanation, not mine) and then to Heroin.

I didn't say that use of cannabis NECESSARILY leads on to hard drugs, I said it can - not the same thing. I'm not brainwashed by the latest bit of convenient P-C 'Research' gobbledygook, I live the reality. The evidence of what it can, and often does, lead to lived in my house - a living ghostly apparition who twice had to be resuscitated when he OD'd, couldn't work, couldn't hold a sensible conversation, had no interest in anything other than where his next bag was coming from, seldom washed, lay on his bed and shook, sweated, screamed in agony, vomited, and would probably have shit himself if he ever ate enough to produce any shit, or wasn't so constipated that he couldn't shit even if he wanted to. With regard to cannabis being a 'gateway' drug, you can deny and bury your head in the sand all you like - it won't alter the reality one jot. Very, very few people start with the hard stuff, they start with that harmless fun stuff, cannabis.

In another thread recently (about smoking in public I think) Harvey Andrews made a very valid point that, smokers and users of other drugs alike will use any conceivable excuse as a means of justifying what they do. Read your post again and think about it - maybe you need to ask yourself some searching questions (you and a lot of others).

Don't waste your time replying, I know I can't persuade a closed mind. I'm out of here for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 11:51 AM

Me again (Go on then - groan "Oh NO, it's that twat again").

Before anyone says it, yes, too bloody right I feel sorry for myself. I've the right.

I also feel sorry for everyone else who is or who's been in my position, but most of all I feel sorry for the kids who are going to be fooled and misled by some of the crap I've read here into believing that smoking pot's like eating a sweetie.

Shame on you all.

Goodbye for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 12:54 PM

Dear GUEST: Heroin is one of the 'deadliest' drugs on Earth. Period. A few others cause such a severe addiction (methamphetamine for one), but not too many. I hope the methadone program works for your son. No one should have to suffer from any addiction. I hope you have found some support in a program, too. I'm thinking of organizations that are set up much like Alcoholics Anonymous' sister program called AlAnon. There, the other victims get some support. Some storms are easier to weather if you have company. If I can be of help, please 'message' me. I will not reveal your name or anything like that. I know you may not wish to take that step, but please know that the door's open to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,guest (above)
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 12:58 PM

Sorry for all the rubbish you have had to read, like you really needed that? Methadone is a step, but also an addictive one, as you know. At least he is off the Heroin.

You probably know all about RELEASE HELPLINE but incase you need the number, here it is [phone].And a dedicated helpline for heroin is HEROIN HELPLINE [phone].

Wishing you all the best now.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Peg
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 01:34 PM

Sorry about your trouble, GUEST, I really am, but you are obviously so wrapped up in your anger and pain that you cannot eve see the level of misanthropy and denial that your emotional state has driven you to...

you called my citing of facts "red herring BS" and said *I* have a closed mind?

well I have to say, I do not have much respect for people who think their own personal suffering puts them in a position to judge the behavior or judgment of millions of thinking, capable adults.
Not everyone who smokes pot becames a heroin addict. That this happened to your loved ones is indeed unfortunate, for you and for them, but it does not make your hysterical diatribe justified, and certainly does not make you right about anything.

I have a number of relatives who are alcohoics; but it does not make me want to demonize alcohol. Why? because not everyone who drinks it becomes an addict.

My mother has MS and glaucoma, and has had medicinal marijuana presecribed for her condition. I have a number of friends who have been presecribed pot for nausea accompanying the use of anti-HIV drugs. This substance helps more than it harms, and hundreds of years of history have borne this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 03:36 PM

Go roll a spliff and leave the guy alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannabis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 04:38 PM

(Wanting to keep names out of it makes every sense and noone can be criticised for that, but it gets confusing with two GUESTs without temporary handles posting to say how they disagree with each other.)

The gateway drugs for the vast majority of people are tobacco and alcohol, probably smoked and drunk at an age where that too is forbidden. That is where people learn that it is possible to change the way you feel by ingesting substances. Or perhaps even earlier, with tea and coffee. If cannabis didn't exist, there is no reason to suppose that any fewer people would move on from tobacco, alcohol and caffeine to heroin.

What makes heroin so devastating to lives isn't the drug itself, it's the clumsy and brutal way in which society tries so ineffectively to crack down on it. Where it is possible for people addicted to the drug to have it made available in a legal way, subject to quality control and proper pharmacological standards, addicts can and do lead good lives, and carry out socially useful jobs. And they even give it up, because for some people it is the illegality and the lifestyle that goes with it that is a large part of the attraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:38 PM

Mc G I was the un named GUEST that was thanked by the first Un Named guest. He wasn't confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM

(Obviously an unnamed GUEST knows which posts weren't by him or her. The confusion is caused to other people. And this really is a diversion from a rather more serious topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:55 PM

He made a point, and I answered it. He thanked me for doing so.

The diversion/confusion is being created by yourself. I think he was fairly clear about his intention of continuing a discussion on this matter, because of the response he got from named guests/members.

So we have communicated directly to each other, without either of us being in the slightest confused.Our conversation is over. Please discuss to your heart's desire, there will be no further confusion heaped upon you by us, as we both have made our point and do not feel the need to discuss it here further.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,GUEST No. 1 (The One Who's Hurting)
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:53 AM

I vowed not to come back but this thread itself is like a drug!

Thanks Guest McG, you clearly understand where I'm coming from and you are truly a compassionate human being. Thanks also to Brucie and the others on this thread who are kind, perceptive and offer support and friendship rather than censuring me for opposing them. I very much appreciate your comments, advice and offers of support.

To the others - I'll try once more to put a perspective on the move towards the legalisation of cannabis (Yes, yes, I know it's not legal yet, but as sure as eggs it soon will be) and the muddled thinking of our rulers and their lapdog 'Researchers' (probably a waste of time as you're all so clearly far more experienced and knowledgable in these matters than me):-

The government has relaxed this country's drinking laws recently, and one of the main reasons they gave us for the move was that, by giving people a longer period in which to drink alcohol, public drunkenness and the crime and anti-social behaviour that go with it would be reduced. Jeez - there's a good one! Give 'em more time to hit the booze and they won't get drunk! What pillocks thought that one up? I'd guess some P-C Lefty Government-Employed 'Researchers' more intent on boosting their own career prospects by matching results to Government Policy than coming up with a solution that stands a snowball-in-hell's chance of success. Has anyone noticed an improvement in late-night behaviour in town and city centres recently? Certainly not in my town where they now fight, throw waste bins through shop-windows, abuse passers-by, assault taxi-drivers and spew all over the pavement at midnight instead of 11 o'clock.

And the point (just in case you haven't got it Peg) is that law-changes making it easier to get your drug don't necessarily make the problems it causes go away.

And, Dear Peg, the fact that your demigods - the Intelligent and Educated - do something doesn't mean it's harmless. Lots of them smoke tobacco too, even though your other demigods 'The Researchers' have told them over and over that it's slowly but surely leading them to a very unpleasant and premature death (something else I've witnessed first-hand and to which no-one should have to be subjected). By your rule-of-thumb, is that to be taken as a recommendation to us all to start smoking?

None are so blind as they who will not see. When it all goes horribly wrong I'll piss myself laughing at them.

Now, thanks again to the good guys (they know who they are). To the others - I'm bored and I bet you lot are bored with me. No need for any 'GUEST-confusion' from now on - I've gone. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Peg
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 08:47 AM

GUEST whois addicted to posting in this thread and insulting anyone who has a different opinion than his own:

Smoking cigarettes is proven to be physically addictive to most   people who do it for any period of time. Smoking marijuana is not.
Neither Education nor Intelligence has ever managed to be a preventive against physical addiction.
But as for trying heroin in the first place...maybe intelligence plays a part there. Same for cigarettes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 10:39 PM

What sort of "shit" do you get? What is your price?

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:23 AM

I agree with McGrath's remarks about heroin addiction. A doctor (great fiddle player) who I used to play in a band with, was involved in running a drug rehabilitation centre. He always maintained that addicts didn't die from taking the drug itself, they died from infections from contaminated supplies, dirty needles, embolisms, overdoses, and the dangers of the lifestyle that most addicts are forced into in order obtain their supplies. He claimed that if addicts were supplied with a controlled supply of phamacutical heroin, then they were perfectly able to start sorting out their lives and making a contribution to society.

Athough he obviously didn't mention names, he told me that his patients had included clergymen, MPs, successful lawyers and business men etc. After they'd been able to regulate their use of the drug many were able to give it up without too much trouble. He also pointed out that it didn't cost the health service much - heroin is an extremely cheap drug to produce - it's only the fact that it's illegal which makes it so expensive to buy from dealers. All of the crime tends to be caused by the illegal supply of the drug, if it was decriminalised and available on the health service, the drug trade would be made redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,Guest No. 1
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 09:55 AM

I'm obviously addicted to this thread, despite some of the bollox in it, so here I go again. At last, someone to agree with! Dave, McGrath and my bestest friend Peg may well be gobsmacked when I say that's the best suggestion I've heard so far and it's something I've advocated for a long time (5 years, since my lad moved from pot to amphetamines to smack). Nice one Dave.

In case the pot-heads in this thread don't get it, here's the reason why I'm in total agreement with Dave and his medical mate. The methods employed by Dealers, Pushers, call them what you like, are masterpieces of psychological manipulation - they know all the buttons to push and when to push them. Removal of the dealer is the key, but it's no good just removing the bottom rung of the ladder, cannabis (and this is what I said right back at the start), because they'll simply begin their process on rung two. Believe it or not, these guys are VERY smart (probably as smart or even smarter than Peg's Gods, The Intelligent And Highly Educated - come to think of it many dealers ARE intelligent and highly-educated) and they know exactly how to hook people in. Many may have the nouse to avoid the hooks, (yes Peg et al, not all ... blah, blah, blah) but others (too many others) may not.

BTW Peg, you seem to view me as an idiot. I'm too modest to boast about my own accomplishments but let me assure you that I too am intelligent, highly educated and make my pretty comfortable living in one of the professions (no clues as to which one, to avoid recognition). I'd have hoped that my vocabulary and ability to use English in a reasonably competent fashion might have led you at least some way towards this conclusion (or do I need to be a cannabis-user to qualify?).

FWIW - my lad doubts that it would work quite as perfectly as Dave's medical friend suggests, because drug trafficking isn't actually about drugs, they're just a commodity to be traded like beans and rice - it's about criminal activity aimed at making large amounts of money by assuring trade to a captive clientele, and the Big Boys, the real businessmen, the ones you wouldn't recognise as traffickers if you passed them in the street, who live in very large houses, drive brand-new Mercs and educate their kids in private schools, would find ways of dipping their sticky fingers in, no matter what. However, he agrees it's probably the best suggestion he's heard, and the most likely to achieve it's aims.

Incidentally Dave, did your friend happen to elucidate as to how the majority of his clients began their journey to addiction, what their very first illegal drug of choice was? I've got a very handsome pension fund building up that I'd cheerfully wager on the answer to that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 01:47 PM

For young teenagers alcohol and tobacco involve law-breaking, so the answer might not be the one you think, GUEST-1.

But I quite agree that legalising cannabis won't stop the people whose business is making addicts and exploiting them. The compromise which the UK is now trying, in which possession is semi-legal, but it can only be purchased from someone who is dealing illegally, and subject to heavy penalties, is in some ways the worst of all, because it's likely to ensure that the suppliers are multi-drug dealers.

What has to be done is bring about a situation where there is no significant money to be made out of habit-forming drugs. That eliminates the engine that drives the drugs industry, and greatly reduces the damage done to habitual users. It wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would make it possible to start solving them, and reducing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 04:09 PM

Yes dealers know their market, and are ready to change to accomodate the new users.

Crack cocaine is now the rising drug problem, fuelled partly by peoples desire in the eighties to appear squeaky clean. They abhorred smoking anything, and their new found yuppie wealth enabled them to dabble in cocaine. So for a few years they indulged after office hours and all appeared well.

They then either grew up and accepted the responsibilities that went along with that ie kids, mortgage, etc. Or they continued to use coke. After so many years the hit was not the same. Now in clubs in London and no doubt most big cities, it is common for them to be told by the resident coke dealer that, "we have run out guys, but hey try this." And especially sized "clubber wraps" of crack are sold. This having five times the strength of regular cocaine. Lo and behold it is so addictive that after their first hit, they are hooked. Then it starts to get nasty.It damages the heart muscles, causes strokes and is often cut with crap that can kill immediately. It's purity is suspect and overdoses the order of the day.

Ok I know this is off thread, sort of, but it does endorse what has been said above re dealers. They are in it to pay for their own habit, They have no scruples.

Legalizing and controlling drugs I think would lessen the problems, not stop them. And this could work for most drugs, be it cannabis or heroin.

Peg, sure there are some dope dealers who indulge in just that, but there are many, many more who are the crud of the earth, and we need to protect the vulnerable from coming into their company.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 04:47 PM

If there wasn't money to be made selling any kind of drugs, no doubt they'd move on to something else, the way the bootleggers did in the States, after Prohibition was wound up. That's be more headaches. But they'd certainly move on, if the drugs weren't where the money was any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Cannerbis
From: GUEST,Guest No. 1
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:01 AM

McGrath, GUEST, you are beacons of sense and sanity in the dark vale of lunacy that is some of the posts in this thread. It's a bastard problem to solve, of course it is, but the 'Pot's just a whole heap o' fun, even clever people use it - lets just give it out like sweeties then no-one will want the hard stuff' approach is simplistic, naive and just ain't gonna work.

As you rightly say, there's a need to go down a far longer road, but my guess is that it's one that The Powers That Be aren't anywhere near ready for yet. In the meantime..........more kids' lives shot to hell.

Still, Peg and her intelligent, highly educated pals will be happy...................
Thanks Guys.
:-)