BS: Democracy in the UK ?

Subject: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Distressed
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:07 AM

So Labour's Scottish MP's have won them the vote on top up fees in England, although it isn't going to apply in Scotland.

Whatever you think of the actual argument one way or the other, can this be right ? Surely not.

Also, Cambridge University have decided not to set up the badly needed animal experimentation lab., not because of the force of the arguments one way or another but because of the threat of violence by a minority of thugs.

Again, whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of the actual matter, is this the right way for a civilised country to resolve things ? Surely not.

It seems to me that we're getting like Northern Ireland, where the thugs rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:16 AM

Don't understand the question! Are you narked because people will have to contribute to the cost of their own education, or because Scotsmen have a say in what goes on in England, or because Cambridge University have decided not to build an animal torture-chamber, or because some people with valid and moral views but unethical methods have got their way, or all of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Distressed
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:19 AM

No, yes, no, yes and no, respectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: lady penelope
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 09:12 AM

What democracy? The majority of people in the country didn't vote for Mr Blair. I didn't vote for my MP, nor did the majority of his constituants. My MP does not ask his constituants how to vote on issues in Parliament. So why should you be bothered on who else is allowed to vote on issues that affect you?

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Charley
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 09:37 AM

And whoever voted them in to parliament in the first place, they're not going to vote according to what their constituents think, or even what they themselves think about the policies, all they're thinking about is their own job security... Couldn't rebel against Tony and make the government look silly now, could they? We can't influence what any of them say, 'rightfully' there or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 10:29 AM

yes of course it can be right - this isn't an English Parliament for God's sake, - and as far as I am aware, the Scottish contribute towards the taxation of the United Kingdom even if they have a limited level of self determination. Since 5/6ths of university funding is paid for through the general taxation system they have every right.Do you really want to live in a democracy????

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Santa
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 10:55 AM

if you don't like it, act. Write to your MP. Write to the PM. Form a focal group. Join your local constituency party and make your opinions known. Form your own political party and find out how many people really do agree with you. You are free to do all of these, in this representative democracy. You are also free just to carry on whingeing.

You didn't vote for Blair? So? I don't think that the candidate of my choice has ever won in my local constituency. This doesn't mean I'm disenfranchised: it just means I'm in a minority locally.

Hey - the best way of all to gain influence! Move to a marginal constituency.

Living in a democracy does not mean that the leaders follow your every whim. Nor should it. This doesn't mean we don't live in one. Perhaps you'd prefer a dictatorship. Or a religious autocracy. Or anarchy. Local warlords? Count me out of all of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 02:49 PM

Well said Linda.

Democracy is the only way isn't it? It's just a bit more demanding than writing tho odd post.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 03:42 PM

Who elected Alistair Campbell?

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Karl Rove
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:33 PM

Don't be ridiculous. If there were real democracy in the UK we could never have gotten you people on side in the Iraq war. We'd have had to fight it alone, and that wouldn't have looked too good.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:21 AM

Harvey,

What legislation did Alistair Campbell propose? How often did he vote on motions in the House of Commons?

GUEST,Karl Rove,

Democracy in the UK - with regard to Iraq, the British Government in Cabinet formulated its policy on Iraq, that policy was then debated in Parliament and both sides of the House voted on it. The House, if I remember correctly, supported the Goverments Policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 11:07 PM

Teribus, you seem like such a naive putz to me when you say stuff like that...but I understand. It's just a question of who one thinks "the good guys" are. And that depends mainly on personal background...right back to age 5 or even younger than that. Some people trust "Big Daddy" implicitly. I don't. I don't call a government that ignores the obvious sentiments of its own populace (a clear majority of them, I mean) to be "democratic" in its practices...though it may have been elected under supposedly democratic auspices. The fact is, most parties in so-called democracies lie outrageously to the public to get elected, slander their opponents in an unscrupulous manner, engage in utterly puerile squabbling with their opponents before and after being elected, and betray most of the promises they made in order to get elected. They institute policies totally against the will of their own public, because they do not serve that public....they serve special interests...such as major corporations, banks, the military, the secret police (like the CIA), and a covey of incredibly rich people.

That's not democracy. It is the facade of a velvet, recyclable dictatorship posing as a democracy by changing their chosen figureheads at somewhat regular intervals through bogus elections that only the rich can finance and only the rich can win. Everyone else loses...every time...including you, I figure.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 04:16 AM

I believe this is a folk song site.

The Banks are made of Marble, there's a guard at every door,
And the vaults are stocked with silver that the miners struggled for.

Tax or take over, what shall we do?

Most people want more things and less tax. Politians can't do what everybody wants , we all want something different. The best ones do a trade off between what they believe in and what most people want. We have political parties to keep a grip of politians.

We had Alistiar Cambell to fight the evil people that write for the Mail, the Sun, the Times etc. and a good job he did.

As for democracy can we extend it into the boards of companies and make them more socialbly accountable. No? Probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Cllr
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 06:08 AM

of course there is democracy in the UK 'cos i got elected.
"John Brown's daughter is a proper sort of gal..." Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 06:39 AM

Karl. Campbell had more power than any backbencher, maybe not in terms of voting as told to by the whips, but in terms of setting the tone and agenda of the Govt through manipulation of the media. In modern times this is a position of POWER whereas an MP is basically powerless and irrelevant it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Cllr
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:04 AM

The influence of individual back bencher's has never been spectacular it is the role of the MP as part of the legislature that provides the power/influence. A cabinet member at local govt level has more responsabilty/political influence/power than any back bench MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,A bit uh gas
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 12:27 PM

scuse me did ya hear this one-

Julius Ceasar let a breezer off the coast of France, Hitler
tried to do the same but did it in his pants!

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:19 AM

Little Hawk,

My post was in response to comments made by two other contributers.

The first - "Who elected Alistair Campbell?"

Meaningless question - that particular individual was appointed to that position no election required, on the other hand, those who govern the UK and dictate policy and law are ALL ELECTED by democratic process. They are advised in this by the country's Civil Service - they are not elected and are in the job full-time irrespective of which government is elected.

The second post, made very much tongue-in-cheek by Guest Karl Rove, I merely pointed out the process involved in making the decision that sent British troops into Iraq.

As for giving the impression of being a "naive putz", your entire post above gives me exactly the same impression of you. For the following reasons:

"I don't call a government that ignores the obvious sentiments of its own populace (a clear majority of them, I mean) to be "democratic" in its practices...though it may have been elected under supposedly democratic auspices."

Now who exactly determines what these "obvious sentiments" are? Who provides the information upon which those sentiments are based? The media (the Press? television? radio?), various pressure groups exploiting the media? Taking into account that the populace has a hard enough time balancing their own personal economy and running their own lives. You would seem to advocate a system whereby, this populace, is expected to keep itself abreast of a myriad of extremely complex issues and then dictate to their government what policy should be - Utterly ridiculous and completely naive.

"The fact is, most parties in so-called democracies lie outrageously to the public to get elected, slander their opponents in an unscrupulous manner, engage in utterly puerile squabbling with their opponents before and after being elected, and betray most of the promises they made in order to get elected."

That little bird IS POLITICS. Worst offenders in the above set up are the opposition parties campaigning to get into power. They have the luxury of not being the party responsible for government in the run up to the election and can promise anything. Once elected they become the party responsible for government they are then hit with the reality of dealing with actual problems. That is when they realise what can be done and what can't.

"They institute policies totally against the will of their own public, because they do not serve that public....they serve special interests...such as major corporations, banks, the military, the secret police (like the CIA), and a covey of incredibly rich people."

I would like you to give me just one example of this. In my own experience I do not believe I have ever come across a situation where a democratically elected government has instituted any policy that it's electorate was totally against. I have also never come across a single issue where the entire populace was in agreement.

"That's not democracy. It is the facade of a velvet, recyclable dictatorship posing as a democracy by changing their chosen figureheads at somewhat regular intervals through bogus elections that only the rich can finance and only the rich can win. Everyone else loses...every time...including you, I figure."

Well sorry to disappoint you LH - as democracy goes - that is the best you are going to get for the time being. The odd thing about it is, that if the present systems are so biased, and that everyone else loses (i.e. everyone except the rich). How is it that standards of living continue to improve, life expectancy has improved, the amazing advances that have been made in a whole variety fields the vast majority benefiting mankind.

By all means, berate, and belittle, the efforts of others, who are actually responsible for solving the problems of the world, whether it be in terms of domestic or international politics, but please do not try and tell me that things are getting progressively worse, when every indication indicates otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM

Cllr - the fact that you got elected doesn't prove democracy, but rather that the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

LTS : )

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 12:21 PM

demos is greek for Mob and cracy is greek for Rule,
Mob Rule in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: mooman
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 12:27 PM

"demos" actually means "the people" in ancient Greek, therefore, "rule by the people".

Is this applicable to some "democracies"? Debatable.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Cllr
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 01:35 PM

if you are using Plato's definition of government the people meant Mob, cllr (no longer at work)

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 01:49 PM

"mob rule" in Plato's diction was ochlocracy.

Good ruler by single ruler: monarchy
Bad rule by single ruler:   Tyrannis
Good rule by several people:aristocracy
Bad rule by several people: oligarchy
Good rule by all people:    democracy
Bad rule by all people:    ochlocracy

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 02:04 PM

But Plato wouldn't have classed our system, in which representatives are elected every few years to rule us, as "democracy" at all. It is really a form of oligarchy, elective oligarchy.

The other one you mkiss outb there is the form of oligarchy which involves rule bt teh weakthy - "timocracy". There's a lot of that about.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 02:26 PM

I'm not saying that everything is getting worse, teribus. It's not. I am merely saying that there are serious discernable flaws in the system, and people should not be complacent.

It is possible for a democratically elected government to behave as a de facto dictatorship...until the moment of the next election...if they choose to. And they do. I've seen it, and I am seeing it.

There is nothing the public can do to stop a majority government from passing whatever legislation it wants to, and betraying whatever promise it made when seeking that majority. I don't call that real democracy...I call it a velvet dictatorship. Many, many people are not voting simply because they realize (either instinctively or consciously) what is going on. They've been disempowered from the top. They have no confidence any longer in their vote achieving anything useful whatsoever.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Cllr
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:06 PM

In plato's time the people was based on the people who were able to vote ie: not strangers slaves women etc to be involved. in a democracy every one had to take part in the debating process so a city state with 8,000 people relied on a population of approx 40,000 non participatory individuals so plato's democracy relied on a slave based economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Gareth
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:13 PM

Funny how those who cry democracy whinge whenever it goes against thier preconcieved ideas !

Actually Cllr - Members of the "Taffia" in Bedford have your card marked as More Intelligent and Community Orientated than the average Tory

But that don't mean to say youve got a clear run next time !!

Gareth. * Friendly BG *

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 03:08 AM

Little Hawk,

Realistically, irrespective of what system is in place, there will always be, "serious discernable flaws in the system", and while, "people should not be complacent", there is no requirement for people to run around like a crowd of alarmist, headless chickens proclaiming the imminent collapse of society.

"It is possible for a democratically elected government to behave as a de facto dictatorship...until the moment of the next election...if they choose to. And they do. I've seen it, and I am seeing it."

Many things are possible, a damn sight fewer are probable, and the view of a person who supported the side, or parties, that lost an election by a significant majority - the goverment in power will always be seen to be acting as a de facto dictatorship - that does not necessarily make it the actual case from the point of view of the whole population.

As for - "And they do. I've seen it, and I am seeing it." - That is entirely your opinion - please do not present it as FACT - it does not convince.

"Many, many people are not voting simply because they realize (either instinctively or consciously) what is going on. They've been disempowered from the top. They have no confidence any longer in their vote achieving anything useful whatsoever."

In other words LH those people are disempowering themselves - well more fool them - they then get exactly what they deserve. Such an attitude to the democratic process, as we know it, may also come from, parents, teachers and lecturers feeding the next generation of voters exactly the same line of crap you describe above.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:33 AM

And I Quote :-

And its because of this Magna Carta
As was signed by the barons of old
That in Britain today we can say what we like
As long as we do what we're told

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM

Very Good, Leadfingers, Very Good!!!!

Enjoyed that, Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:37 PM

I am NOT trying to convince you of anything, teribus. I know that we will probably continue to disagree about most political matters.

All I am doing is talking about something that interests me, because I, like most living beings, enjoy expressing myself from time to time.

And I always vote, despite the fact that I suspect my vote will achieve nothing...or almost nothing...so I am not among those people you referred to who are "disempowering themselves".

When I present opinions, that is ALL I'm doing...presenting an opinion. Why?   Because I like to talk and express myself. :-) Judging by the length of many of your posts, I think you do too.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:47 AM

There is nothing the public can do to stop a majority government from passing whatever legislation it wants to (Little Hawk)

Let's have a look at a country where this is not the case: Switserland.

Each single law can be changed (or newly introduced) by a 'motion' by the people. Roughly four times per year the Swiss have a day on which several of these motions and laws are open to truly democratic decison. Any 'motion' accepted by both the majority of the voters and the majority of the Cantons (making up all Switserland) will come into effect.

That 'The People' decides in Switserland both locally and countrywide has made Switserland extremely conservative.

If we had in Germany such a democracy, we'd soon have death penalty, pro discrimination laws against foreigners etc. I'm glad we have a representative democracy.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM

Good point, Wolfgang. It's vitally important to have mature people of good character...and of flexible mindset...at the top of any government, whether it's a representative democracy, a direct democracy, a monarchy or a dictatorship. To put it briefly...with bad leadership any system goes sour...with inspired leadership any system makes progress.

I've been reading an excellent book about the American Civil War, called "The Last Full Measure". The North in that war had inspired political leadership in Abe Lincoln, but a series of inept and incompetent generals running the Army of the Potomac...while the South had a pretty inept government, but an army (in Virginia) under absolutely inspired and brilliant leadership. Due to this, it took the North four years to conquer the South, despite having overwhelming advantages in men and materiel right from the start.

The thing that most troubles me about the modern political system is that it does not tend to produce inspired leadership from men with high ideals. At least, I don't think so. And it is hopelessly compromised by the influence of Big Money...which has no ideals. Lincoln himself foresaw that that would happen with the rise of the corporation, and he warned of dire consequences if it did.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM

Teribus..Your comments to Little Hawk regarding "disempowerment", were a bit unfair.
As one who no longer votes,I certainly dont feel disempowered by refusing to give a mandate to a bunch of self serving liars,people lacking in principle,and who refuse to resign office under almost any circumstances.   
No matter what "crap" we are fed by the system,I feel that the whole political prosess is deeply flawed, and contributes to the misery of mankind.
Personally if I wish empowerment ,I open my front door and go for a walk on a crisp January morning,in my dear native land. Breath in the sharp clean air , survey the beauty around me ,and think how lucky I am.   No need for "power" over my fellow beings thank you.
       As Burns said, "The honest man,tho' e'er sae poor,
                      Is King o' men for a' that......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 05:15 PM

Good post, Akenaton. If you want a good life, don't depend on the government to provide it for you (either through capitalism or socialism), because it's essentially in your own hands to do that. One of the reasons I still vote is so that certain smartasses can't say to me "You didn't vote, therefore your opinion is irrelevant." But there is no party out there that has proven to be either reliable or trustworthy, so I when I do cast my vote it's with a grain of salt. Parties cannot succeed without rich backers. Rich backers have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and enlarging their piece of the pie. For that reason, parties rapidly become corrupt and they do not serve the general public. It would be foolish to expect otherwise in a system run by Big Money.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:45 AM

I thought those in favour of direct democracy would want to know as a backup to what I have posted above in general terms:

Yesterday was once more voting day in Switserland. The People, against explicit wishes of the parliament and nearly all political parties, the churches etc., has decided with majority that a subgroup of violent criminals and sexual offenders (40 people altogether, none of them with a life term, as far as I know) will be in jail for the rest of their lifes without any chance of their later getting free being reconsidered even if their development is considered positive by the authorities.

That's in violation of the European Human Rights Charter, but who cares, it was a democratic decision.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:11 AM

Bery interesting posts, Wolfgang. As a matter of interest is Switzerland even a signatory to the European Huamn Rights charter?

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:15 AM

I know I'm becoming a cantankerous, contentious and cynical old sod, my so-called-friends constantly remind me, but I've got to say that I was totally unaware that politicians have EVER represented their constituents. They don't vote according to OUR wishes (they seldom ask us for our opinions on anything), they vote almost unfailingly for what their party leaders tell them to vote for. If you accept that there are three main parties, each with a leader, it follows that the wishes of a maximum of three individuals are what decides our lives and our future. Sounds like a bum deal to me.

I stopped voting years ago, my side never won so what's the point?
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:34 AM

The Green Party never wins either, but it wouldn't deter me from placing my vote. It is still indicative at the end of the day how the electorate feel. And must give some encouragement to the lesser parties to keep plugging away.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:37 AM

Little Hawk,

In your post above, you made the following statement:

"If you want a good life, don't depend on the government to provide it for you (either through capitalism or socialism), because it's essentially in your own hands to do that."

I wholeheartedly agree.

As to:
"Parties cannot succeed without rich backers. Rich backers have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and enlarging their piece of the pie. For that reason, parties rapidly become corrupt and they do not serve the general public. It would be foolish to expect otherwise in a system run by Big Money."

I can immediately think of one example that runs counter to that contention, whereby the interests of "Big Money" did benefit the general public and was of great service to mankind. It related to combating the greatest killer on this planet - Malaria, the cure and preventative measures were not researched and introduced for humanitarian reasons, but solely because it was bad for business to do nothing about it.

The examples given above by Wolfgang, relating to the system in Switzerland, is nothing short of bloody alarming - If a similar system was in effect in the UK, we would have returned to capital punishment and we would have been out of the EU. One question though Wolfgang, as Switzerland is not a member of the EU, does the European Human Rights Charter have any weight?

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:40 AM

Peter,

I think yes, but I am not completely sure.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 02:33 AM

Democracy?-----In the UK???

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 03:53 AM

Democracy?-----In the UK??? - One liner, quick laugh, predictable.

Let's take a look at it:

Lots of people above complain about the lack of choice (three party system). What Strolling Johnny states above, "If you accept that there are three main parties, each with a leader, it follows that the wishes of a maximum of three individuals are what decides our lives and our future.", is incorrect. There exists a whole party apparatus behind each of those leaders that stretches back to grass roots level, the constituency parties hold meetings that discuss issues relevant locally and nationally, the party conferences bring those further forward in the process and party policy is formulated, the party that happens to be in government is handicapped in this process by being restricted by way of what is practicable within the term of that Parliament. That is how it is supposed to work, but it requires involvement, a democratic system of government does not run on auto.

Outwith the established political parties in the UK, is there anything to prevent like-minded people forming their own political parties - No there is not. But again it takes a great deal of hard work, it takes a great deal of time.

From my viewpoint - Yes democracy does exist in the UK. From the point of view of those too bloody idle to engage in the process - It doesn't matter whether democracy exists or not as they have proved themselves to be totally disinterested.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:40 AM

Teribarse- not bloody idle (I work on average 60-hours a week) or disinterested (I wouldn't be here in this thread if I was), simply too tired and too sickened by 57 years of living in a system whereby the wishes of the majority of the people are ignored by a small band of arrogant, self-serving, mainly career-politicians, many of whom don't even reside in their consituencies and who toe the party line in order to ensure their future career progression, whilst we Joe Soaps are forced to pay the huge bills for their idealogically-driven bugger-ups. Doesn't matter what party they belong to, they pay lip-service to the notion of serving their constituents whilst blindly following party ideology and dogma.

The 'Party Apparatus' of which you're so clearly in awe is a flawed system whereby a small number of determined and vociferous people with axes to grind get together in order to enforce their will on others.

And don't tell me that I've no right to moan if I don't engage in the party system - it's not necessary to be a part of it in order to have the right to criticise. I don't smoke or take illegal drugs either, but I know they're bad for me and I strongly advise others against doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM

Thanks for your post of 10 Feb 04 - 08:40 AM, Strolling Johnny, you personify my point perfectly. By all means moan, complain and criticise, but please don't tell me that democracy does not exist in the UK, just because it is not served up to you on a plate.

I repeat - For democracy to work it requires involvement, a democratic system of government does not run on auto - You obviously think it should, little wonder that you are disappointed and disillusioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM

Teribus, I've lived a lot of years and I speak not as a starry-eyed, rose-tinted-bespectacled, wet-behind-the-ears young lad, but from a very great deal of bitter experience. (And for that matter, how do you know that I'm not, or haven't been, involved in 'the party apparatus'? You may be surprised there owld lad!).

They ask what we want, then do as they like. QED.

'Bye mate :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Democracy in the UK ?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:47 PM

"...a democratic system of government does not run on auto..."

It did when you all went off to Iraq for yourselves