what are the non-C instruments?

Subject: what are tne non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:00 PM

I'm organzing some music-playing sessions at our church, open to everyone. I project a piece of music onto a wall or screen, with chords, and everyone plays it. There could be kids who are learning band instruments in the group, and the kids are often anaware that their instrument is different.

I know that there are some instruments that need special music because their notes just don't come out the same. For example, some or all clarinets. What are the instruments, and how do I change the music to accommodate them?

Subject: RE: what are tne non-C instruments?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

What are the instruments

Brass and Woodwind mostly.

how do I change the music to accommodate them?

You transpose it.

Subject: RE: what are tne non-C instruments?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM

Ah the delight of the transposing instruments Bb & Eb for these beasties - Clarinets & Saxophones mainly - but other brass band instruments are often in Bb or Eb.

Think of it this way - tinwhistles are made in lots of keys Bb C D E F G A and a few others...

Suppose you have some sheet music in the key of C.

Each whistle tries to play it, each pretending that it is a C whistle - using exactly the same fingering as the C whistle. Some thought - and maybe much scratching of heads will be helpful here. Each instrument will transpose the music into the key in which it is built - the D will transpose the music up 2 semitones to the Key of D , etc. The Bb will transpose the music down 2 semitones to the key of Bb.

So if you want the Bb whistle, say, to play in tune with the C whistle in the key of C, you must give the Bb whistle player music which is transposed UP 2 semitones, so that when he plays what is written, the instrument will produce the correct notes.

Now go take two aspirins and have a good lie down...

Orchestra (and band) music packs come with the appropriate changes made to the music for the appropriate instruments. Really experienced players can sight transpose to get the right notes... :-)

Now if you don't plan to buy the prepared kit for the tune you want - then you are going to have to do your own orchestration by hand - which includes transposing the parts for these transposing instruments.

First - Go buy a pack of Panadol....

Robin

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,ferry hanumul
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:44 PM

But I thought that a Bb whistle only has the notes for the key of Bb available to it - and so could not play all the notes that are in the C scale? So - I thought you could play in any key on a single recorder - but would need an appropriate key'd whistle for whatever key you were in. The tradeoff being that you have simpler fingering but less notes.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM

Trumpets and cornets...

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:58 PM

Ahh! that was a no brainer example - in fact you would have to half hole some notes, difficult but it can be done - you're too clever for the example I used - but the basic music theory of it is correct.

:-)

Example works exactly for the clarinets & saxophones...

Robin

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:04 PM

Just pray that a Northumbrian Smallpiper doesn't turn up...

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:06 PM

A good player can play in C on a Bb whistle (or any other kind, for that matter). The issue here is those instruments for which staff notation has to be prepared according to conventions specific to those instruments, and I really would recommend a look at a general introduction to the subject for answers. In the UK, books like Teach Yourself Music have most of the basic information you'd need, and there will be plenty of equivalents where you live, probably at the local public library.

A friend of mine runs the music dept. at a local school, and has been training up sword dance teams and a linked orchestra there; they did a series of excellent performances at a local festival recently. There were a few odd moments when groups of them did some impromptu busking, though: one girl played a set of tunes on oboe (reading from music) and was joined by two recorder players who read the music over her shoulder. The result was a set of tunes played perfectly in time but in two completely different keys.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM

Are there any band teachers on board who know the answers to my questions or can tell me where to find them?

They are not in MY public library.

"The result was a set of tunes played perfectly in time but in two completely different keys." -- That is what I hope to avoid.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM

Leeneia:

It will be a bit harder to accomodate the kids who bring band instruments to your session than you realize, because they will need their parts to be completely written out, and they also need to be conducted, and they will need the other musicians and singers to exactly follow the the conductor as well--

As to the parts, in addition to being transposed to an appropriate key--it is important to know that a number of the band/orchestral instruments typically do not play the melody line, and so these parts have to be created and written out as well--the long and the short of it is that, in order to make it work, you'd really have to do all the things you'd need to do if you were starting a beginner's orchestra and chorus for the kids, starting with the purchase or comission of written arrangements

The best arrangement(least trouble, most fun) is to simply have the kids sing along with an informal guitar or piano accompaniment, and save the band instruments for band class.

I

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:04 PM

It will be a bit harder to accomodate the kids who bring band instruments to your session than you realize, because they will need their parts to be completely written out, and they also need to be conducted, and they will need the other musicians and singers to exactly follow the the conductor as well

Perhaps these music sessions could be a way that some of them could start to learn that it doesn't have to be that way...

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM

Unless you are able to teach them how to improvise the appropriate parts on their instruments, it does need to be that way--

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:45 PM

By all accounts, the old bands were kicked out of churches because of the terrible racket they made, and were replaced by organs. Now, it sounds to me as if you are possibly in danger of re-enacting this interesting piece of folk history.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:16 PM

Bb instruments:

Trumpet (cornet)
Clarinet
Bass clarinet
Tenor saxophone
Euphonium (baritone horn) playing in treble clef

Eb instruments:

Alto saxophone
Baritone saxophone

F instruments:

French horn

C instruments:

Trombone playing in bass, tenor or alto clef
Euphonium (baritone horn) playing in bass clef
Flute
Oboe (I think)

If I have forgotten any band instruments, they are probably in C.

For transposition purposes, a C played on an Eb instrument will be the same note as an Eb played on a C instrument; a C played on a Bb instrument will be the same note as a Bb played on a C instrument; a C played on an F instrument will be the same note as an F played on a C instrument.

Clear as mud? I thought so. Transposing and arranging isn't for the timid. I wish you the best of luck.

jeffp

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:31 PM

And then there is the Ocarina...

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: treewind
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:37 PM

...and in case jeffp's reply doesn't fully answer the question,

for Bb instruments you have to write the music out a whole tone higher, including changing the key signature, so C major would become D major, or G would become A and so on.

For Eb instruments you have to write the music out three semitones lower, so C would become A, or G would become E.

The only other solution you can hope for is that some of the players are used to this problem and can transpose - some can, because it's obviously a useful skill for occasions like this.

Anahata

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:21 PM

Thanks for the list and the advice, Jeffp. Just what I was looking for.

Now as to the rest of you, you need to start addressing your fears. Transposing is no problem - that's what Noteworthy is for. Conducting is no problem. That's what one-lol-ly, two-lol-y is for.
And I believe my friend "onehusker," who has a master's degree in horn performance, will be there. We should be able to manage.

BTW, this won't be in church, it is merely a social event meant to encourage people to get out their instruments.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:26 PM

Now as to the rest of you, you need to start addressing your fears

To the best of my knowledge, none of us were afraid...

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:46 PM

But wait, what about clarinets? I distinctly remember having to prepare special Christmas music for my 12-year-old niece one year.

There's more than one key of clarinet, isn't there?

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: treewind
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 06:53 PM

There are A clarinets but they're rare. Many clarinets have interchangeabale barrels to convert between the two keys as they are so close. I think the existence of the A clarinet is to make it easier to play in sharp keys.

There is also an Eb clarinet much bigger and lower in pitch.

Anahata

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:04 PM

I do believe I have seen a G Clarinet - Lark In the Morning had such a weird beast a few years ago - apparently used in Arabian music, but can't be sure of anything much at this time...

Pardon lack of mental clarity - not much sleep last night - temp has not dropped below 30 deg C for a couple of NIGHTS (and was above 33 -36 for last fortnight day temps) - and today is forecast for 41 deg C - humidity has been 80+% .....

The whole point about orchestrating bands/orchestras of assorted instruments in various base keys is that there are very good reasons why those instruments were built in those keys - some of it is historical - it gets worse when you realise that some instruments are built to different pitch standards as well - not all A = 440 - I won't mention piano accordions in detail, but there is a brief discussion of this in Technique: Piano Accordion for The Recycled Muso - some old instruments like fultes may not be in A = 440, clarinets too. You takes your chances... new instruments for bands most likely are safely in "standard pitch".

And rehearsals are for getting the worst of the bugs out of the system...

The point about sight transposing for non-C instruments - it is a skill that is not for beginners - it takes some years of experience to learn to do the sight transposition "on the fly"... and some never manage it. It took me quite a while to handle it on whistles, as when I started on them - I had only played C instruments.

As to getting any random group of musos to play together, especially "off the cuff", the results are not always pleasant - there were some LP's issued by "The Portsmouth Sinfonia" in England abot the 1970's I think - it is really worthwhile to survive listening to these records to truly understand the meaning of the word "cacaphony" (caca - root word pertaining to faeces!).

But it can be a lot of fun, especially for kids, even if the aural results are unlikly to be worthy of a Grammy, or whatever...


Robin

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:55 PM

G'day leeneia, treewind & Foolestroupe,

Band Instruments aren't my forte - but I have been paying them a bit more attention lately ... and I do know of at least one example of a 'C' clarinet (it was owned by a Dutch player with The Backblocks Musicians a few years back - Christiaan Dolislager, who now lives about halfway up NSW ... towards Foolestroupe ... and fixes accordions).

The reason it came up in the past week was that, as well as my Bush Music Club Concert Party, I'm contemplating another small group for an RFS (Rural Fire Service) fundraiser that evokes the style of "German Band" that was common in Australia in the latter part of the 19th century. This was nothing like the "Oompah! - oompah!" bands of the Bavarians from whom they were refugees. The bands had, typically, concertina (or, later, button accordion), cornet, euphonium/tenor horn, clarinet, flute ... and anything else handy!

They played popular and dance music of the day - at dances and out on the streets. I'm taking advantage of being able to involve some Lithgow RFS friends who play both concertinas and brass instruments to bring together something of the same grouping of instruments ... and I'll put together a set of tunes and songs from the "Germanic" end of Australian collected music (Schuster & Zann's work around Toowoomba, a lot of Meredith's Mudgee area tunes - and later material from the Barrosa Deutsch and nearby traditions.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:04 PM

Funny - the last post reminded me that thermometers come in the keys of C and of F (and occasionally K). Beat that anyone!


Now the question I have: I play tin whistle so I'm pretty much only used to the simple fact that without half notes all over the place, I just carry around 6 or 7 different keyed whistles so fit in with most groups. I used to play clarinet and I thought that the modern woodwinds are so complicated with keys and what not to make it easier to play and fit in with the other instruments. I used to be able to play a friend's flute music with my clarinet and it worked out fine.

What gives?

Oh and by the way, Foolestroup mentioned early on in the thread that "tinwhistles are made in lots of keys Bb C D E F G A . . ."

That's true, but to be a bit more specific, it might be better to list: A Bb C D Eb F# G. The A should be on the other end of the list. As far as I know, no one mades an A whistle at the top end. My High G is almost too small to fit my fingers on. As are at the bottom end of the "regular" whistles, in fact some makers list them as a "low" whistle and group them with the G F# D (descending order & occasionally there's others, but not commonly)

pax y'all!

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:52 PM

Dear...Leenia....It is obvious you have embarked on a missionary service and while you "know music" you are not "A musician."

My most blessed, heartfelt prayers are with you. Continue ON! Eventualy, some of the children can enlighten you.

In the meantime - Ignore this "Troupe-of-Fools" and secure an older (cheap) version of "Band in a Box" software. Instrumental conversions and parts are simple with notation. Everyone can participate in the worship - the elder's will be happy because is cheap - and parent's of the children participants may be drawn into the congregation.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 12:34 PM

Gargoyle has a point.
See.. parents - even musical parents - are spectacularly uncritical when it comes to the fruit of their loins.

From school recorder ensembles all hooting away mournfully like a flock/herd? of suicidal owls, no two children playing the same note, or even the same tune, to talentless kids in "talent" shows. We parents clap them all, we love them. We turn up in our droves, buy exorbitantly priced costumes or instruments they will wilfully abandon after a couple of months, and we will buy unbelievably over-priced tickets.

We will sell our poor long-suffering friends tickets as well, but that's Ok because we as *their* long-suffering friends, and we have to go and see their hideous brats.


So, take some advice. Just give them all different pieces of music. The kids won't know and the parents won't care.

School bands are dreadful anyway.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 12:49 PM

It isn't about notation software, Leeneia, and it isn't about transposing--it is about giving kids a positive musical experience, and the key to that is in doing what you know--

You obviously don't know anything about writing arrangements or making lead sheets for band instruments--why make the success of this event contigent on something you don't really know how to do? Especially something as time and detail intensive as the preparation of music--

If you really want to have them play instruments, spend your time begging , borrowing , or buying some simple band arrangements of of tunes--look for "flip-folder" books of the kind used by pep bands, that usually contain 15-20 well known tunes, the new ones often cost 3-4 dollars for each indivicual instruments(each transposed to the right key) or 15-20 dollars for a conductor's score with all the parts written out(usually written in concert pitch, not transposed). The local high school marching band/pep director will likely have many different books of this type, and might be persuaded to lend you a stack for a couple days.

If you want things to work out, you might also try to borrow the director, or at least the student assistant director--

PS--Here are the instruments that tend to be in a marching band(excluding percussion)--a pep band, which is essentially what you'll end up with, has roughly the same instruments, but is fewer--The euphonium part is often played on a baritone horn(I think in Bb), the F Horn part on an Alto horn--The tuba is usually a Sousaphone, and I think that is also in Bb--

Flute/Piccolo
Bb Clarinet
Eb Alto Saxophone
Bb Tenor Saxophone
Bb Trumpet 1
Bb Trumpet 2
Bb Trumpet 3
F Horn
Trombone 1
Trombone 2
Euphonium
Tuba

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Altcar
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 02:15 PM

The guitar is a transposing instrument as well!

It is written one octave higher than it's sounded pitch.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:26 PM

... as are quite a lot in instruments - some sound an octave higher or lower...

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: s&r
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM

Many folk tunes have a limited scale - eg many Irish tunes in 'D' have no 'C#' in the tune so can be played on a G instrument. Pentatonic music uses five note in the note row - this may help. Try asking the youngsters to have their teachers transpose the songs/tunes you use.

This begs the question of the reading ability..

Good Luck

Stu

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:36 PM

Actually, that's a thought... you wight want to limit the percussion instrumets if you can - too many enthusiastic unsubtle percussionists will swallow any performance - ask anyone here about Bodhrans.... :-)

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 10:56 PM

We are probably going to have a handful of people, probably playing guitars, flutes, perhaps a violin. There may be one or two kids who are taking a band instrument in school. I think that between my NoteworthyComposer software (Alt T-T, anyone?) our music director and the friend with the master's in horn and trumpet, we will be able to cope.
--------------
You parents are right about the kids. When kids sing in one of our concerts, attendance swells.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: IvanB
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:05 AM

leenia, since you use NWC, I'll assume you're working on a PC. Ignore the naysayers - certainly you can do the job with the tools you have available!

There's a nifty PDF file here:

Instrumental Ranges

that gives you the ranges of the common symphonic instruments along with the score transpositions for each. You might find it useful.

Good luck with your project. I admire anyone who tries to get more people involved in music as a participative rather than a spectator event.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:07 AM

My most sincere and honestly felt prayers are with you on this adventure....may it bode well....and may there be many more celebrations in the future.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:36 AM

The list by M.Ted (20 Feb 04 - 12:49 PM) is a good one. About the only "fairly common" other instrument that might show up would be a bass clarinet (Bb) or possibly and alto clarinet (Eb), since these are still fairly common in school bands and orchestras.

If you have notation for C, Bb, and Eb instruments you should be in good shape. You may want music for C instruments on bass clef, but treble clef is the usual notation for all but a few.

A handy "cheat:" Music written bass clef for C has the dots in the same place as treble clef for Eb instruments. Change the clef sign, move the sharps/flats and add three sharps and the trombone part will sound in tune when played by the alto sax.

I'm compelled to point out a missing "key" in Blackcatter's comment (19 Feb 04 - 10:04 PM ). Thermometers also come in the key of "R." There's the common Rankine, or "absolute Fahrengeit," or the less common Reamur(sp?) (0 is melting point 80 is boiling point) fairly common in Sino countries early in the prev century. Unfortunately, the two "R keys" are not enharmonic with each other. The Rankine thermometer is possibly an appropriate instrument for playing "In the Key of R".

John

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM

Thanks for the chart, IvanB. I have printed it.

Thanks for the tips, JohnInKansas. I've saved them in WordPad.

Thanks for the encouraging words, Gargoyle. We are meeting after the fish fry. Do you like fish?

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: open mike
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 03:56 PM

youj might enlist a music theory student
if there is such a class near you, to
do the transposition as extra credit
for their class. Good practice for them,
and good help for you. I thouhgt the Eb
clarinet was smaller that the Bb. Sort
of like the comparison of a picolo to
a flute...The clarinet does come in "A",
too.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 06:40 PM

open mike -

You were absolutely right. The common Eb clarinet (alto) is smaller than the Bb Bass clarinet. It is, however, somewhat larger than the common Bb licorice stick.

There is, or has been, an Eb contrabass clarinet, but I don't think any living person has seen one except in a museum.

The clarinet and saxophone families go up and down in size, alternating between Eb and Bb, in the "normal" styles.

The most popular(?) saxophone is the Eb alto. The Eb bariton is "one octave larger/lower." Between the two, the Bb tenor.

Above the alto, the standard is a Bb Soprano, although a "pseudo soprano" in C was fairly popular some years ago.

Bb Bass saxophones also exist, below the baritone, but are very rare.

The clarinet - standard licorice stick style - usually plays from music written as for a Bb instrument, although the "key" for a clarinet is somewhat ambiguous. The "second register" fingers like a true Bb instrument, but the registers are an octave and a half apart, rather than an octave, so the fingering for the lower register is "in another key."

The alto clarinet - one of the most truly ugly* instruments ever built in its common form - is similarly called an Eb instrument, based on the fingering of the second register. (*Mechanically ugly - they can make good music.)

Below the alto, there's the Bb Bass clarinet.

Clarinets in A are made, and are written for and used in some orchestral work. They get so little use, however, that even professional musicians in the finest symphonies often just use a Bb with an "A barrel" A short section between the mouthpiece and the "keyed sections" can be replaced with a very slightly longer one to lower the Bb instrument to A. (Clarinets are often sold with both barrels, and many clarinet cases have a hole for the other barrel, even if you don't get it).

In actual fact, if you order a "clarinet in A" from the factory, you'll most likely get a Bb instrument with the A barrel. They'll keep the standard Bb barrel and charge you a few bucks more because it's a "special order." There is a real difference in the "professional" and "symphony" lines, but you're unlikely to find a student musician with one of those.

Almost any common band/orchestra instrument has been made in C, but the only one of the common Bb Eb family that's likely to crop up might be a "C - melody" (almost a soprano) saxophone. Most band/orchestra instructors would not accept one of these in their organization, so it's not likely one will show up.

Some of the "brass" instruments can swap a tube or two and change keys. This is what normally has been done if you run into a "C-bugle," (or sometimes an A-bugle) cornet or trumpet. It usually is the "standard instrument" with a different tuning slide. If they haven't lost it, they can stick the "original" tube back in and be in a "normal" Bb. On some, you can pull the existing tuning slide far enough to get an "A cornet" back to a Bb (or to get a Bb instrument in tune with that "standard pitch" at A=400Hz that used to be common on barroom pianos.) If a kid is using the instrument in a class at school, you can be fairly certain it will be in the common Bb.

John

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: IvanB
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 09:14 PM

John, I graduated from high school in 1958. Several years before my graduation year, one of the instruments purchased by the school for the Sr. High band was a contrabass clarinet (the school commonly provided the more "expensive" instruments since few parents would be willing to have their child play one if they had to buy it). And actually the purchase was to replace another that had been in use for about 25 years at that point. Having lost track of the music program at that school, I don't know whether they still have one as part of their regular lineup, but I certainly was familiar with it in actual use. Along with the bassoon, it added wonderful depth and timbre to the woodwind section.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:30 AM

IvanB

I don't recall ever seeing a contrabass clarinet actually in use.

The bass clarinet (Bb) was quite common in my area at about that time, although seldom more than one per band - occasionally two in an orchestra. The schools usually provided the bass and alto clarinets in my area, although most bands/orchestras just waved off on the alto. Alto saxophones were more popular, easier to play, and have about the same pitch as the alto clarinets.

The bass clarinet was not a particularly popular instrument with the kids, and unfortunately often got "assigned" to the least proficient player available - on grounds that it seldom needed to play rapid (or significant solo) passages and hence would be "easier." (An ex-wife happened to be one so "gifted.")

In actual fact, it's one of the more difficult instruments for most kids to play passably. Relatively few high school age kids have the "oral cavity volume" needed to back up the air column in a bass. The ones who do are typically the precociously developed males - who get the sousaphone because they're the only ones who can lift one. Just as with singing, the needed capacity can be "developed" or just "discovered." Even a small person can learn to use the whole capacity of the body to adapt to playing the bass, but it doesn't seem to come too naturally to most.

It should be noted, too, that the Bb bass clarinet is sometimes called by other names by those who fancy themselves to be "purists" of the musical world. By citing some archaic tradition known only to themselves, some might call the Bb bass a "contrabass" instrument, particularly if they've been taught that the "names" of the instruments just really have to relate to human voice ranges. It's sort of the same with the "stand up" string bass, which isn't really a string bass in the form most often seen - which is usually a 3/4 bass. The "real" string bass - to some - is that thing that's about 6.5 feet tall. And you'll occasionally see the 8 or 9 foot monster brought out for special pieces by large orchestras - and no two people have ever agreed on what to call them.

I'm afraid I've been out of touch with the band and orchestra world for far too long to really know what's the "in" thing now, but I don't think the academic music world has changed all that much. There seem to be many more flutes than when I was in one, and more bands use an occasional oboe - which used to be considered strictly an "orchestra" instrument. On the other hand, I haven't seen a "band bassoon" in decades, and we had two of them in town when I was a "schooler."

The C, Bb, Eb sets of instruments, for purposes of providing notation, should still be the common ones.

John

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:20 PM

First, what the hell is a "Band Bassoon?" Are you referring to someone marching with one?......Stupid idea, went out decades and decades ago..........Or are you meaning the Military Style bassoon in F using the military fingering system rather than the Heckel? Or do you just mean a bassoon used in bands which is very common?

Also, why with all the clarinet talk was the Eefer not brought up? Although far more common in classical and jazz applications, they are still used in many traditional bands. Plays in E-flat, it's quite small and generally made in 4 pieces or less (no middle joint).

Spaw

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:31 PM

It is truly remarkable just how many instruments and variations of instruments are out there.

It is also remarkable just how few of these instruments the typical orchestra (even a professional one) utilizes regularly.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 04:01 PM

Spaw

Our bassoonist didn't usually march with the bassoon, although there were a couple of exceptions when the weather was nice. He was, however, an excellent musician - one of those kids whose parents got him started early on an unusual (and incredibly expensive and difficult) instrument to assure that he'd follow a musical career. (And I don't know if he did.) He played in both band and orchestra, and was much in demand for "outside" events, since good bassoonists were, and probably are still, pretty rare.

When the band went out to march, usually he picked up a bass drum or a pair of cymbals.

Sorry, but I don't place your Eefer clarinet as anything I've seen (and remembered). There have been a lot of "deviant" instruments popular with specific performers, or with a particular "cult(?)" of music, but most of these don't find a place in conventional bands, and kids who turn up at a playalong aren't too likely to bring one.

The standard Bb clarinet is already something of a "screecher" if a kid has learned to get into the upper notes, and an alto sax player (especially a kid) who's learned to get into the top (4th) octave can "break glass" (or eardrums). Kids in my era were usually only taught the first 2.5 octaves on a sax, but quite a few now are being taught to "explore" the full 4 octaves of the instrument.

Instrument range does bring up a minor thing to be consideered by leeneia, or anyon else doing transpositions. Especially with "beginner" level kids, each instrument does have a fairly limited range in which the kids (beginners) will be "most comfortable" playing - especially unfamiliar tunes. It does make some difference where the transposed music "fits on the staff" for each kind of instrument, so you have to decide whether to go up or down with key changes, to get to where they're used to seeing stuff written. Unfortunately, what they'll want depends a lot on what kind of music they're being taught, and on who shows up; so I'd recommend just taking a reasonable "songbook," in three or four key versions, to the first session or two, and waiting for them to tell you what changes they need.

The fundamental problem likely to arise is the very popular guitar vs band/orchestra instrumentation. At beginner levels, they often mix about as well as oil and water (or maybe like drain cleaner and gasoline).

John

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: IvanB
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 08:16 PM

John, our school provided the alto and bass clarinets also, as well as the oboe, piccolo, English horn, basson, French horns, baritone horns and tubas. But it was definitely a contrabass clarinet I'm talking about - a huge instrument. While i was in band, the contrabass clarinet was played by a guy who'd started out on clarinet, switched to tuba, then to the contrabass. He definitely did all that switching around because he was no great shakes on the clarinet and the switch to a brass instrument was too much for him. But he applied himself to the contrabass and by the end of his sophomore year was doing some pretty amazing things with it.

The oboe, English horn and piccolo were all played by the same person. At times our bandleader had to decide which of two parts was most important to him since there was no one else interested in playing any of the three. She was quite good on all three but especially shone on the piccolo.

Our bassoonist was also quite good, but I don't know what happened after she graduated. There was no one coming up through the band program to replace her.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 08:59 PM

That's a good point about which ranges are easy for young players. I'll look into that. As for the guitar vs orchestra instrumentation, we have the following instuments playing together at masses, and it works:

grand piano guitar violin recorder French horn clarinet string bass (bowed or plucked) gentle percussion

Not all of them at once, usually, though at Chrismtas time I believe it did happen. That's where I got the idea for the sessions.

As for Spaw's Eefer clarinet - knowing Spaw, it's probably a misspelling for Effing clarinet.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,Tony still sans cookie
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 09:02 PM

I still remember with horror my experience of trying to play the trumpet for school assembly. For some reason, almost all the hymns we had to play were in D or A, which meant that a trumpet had to play in E or B - both very hard keys for a beginner musician (with almost zero natural talent).

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 09:36 PM

The Eb clarinet is the one that is favored in Balkan and Eastern European folk music--it has a zippier sound than the Bb--

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM

Spaw=moderately fine bassoonist/ Cols. Youth Symphony,64-67; All Ohio Youth Symphony, 65-67 and lots of other assorted stuff. Had a neat feature piece for bassoon, Variations on the old folk tune, "Lucy Long."

In any case....wanna' talk jazz instead? Came a lot closer to a career there......

As to the e-flat clarinet, they've been around for a long time, but you never saw them much in band use, but they are more than a novelty piece. Don't forget that until about 35 years or so back, the popularity of the Soprano Sax was pretty low as well. It was never a toy or novelty, just didn't find itself......Eefer is about the same still and it may never find itself!   Here's a Selmer Eefer for sale and some info on a Clarinet site.

Spaw

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 11:49 PM

I guess I've just led a sheltered life. I knew that both the contrabass and the "sopranino" clarinet had been invented, but I never got the chance to meet one, and maybe didn't pay enough attention to the jazz world to hear about what they were playing. With my current decrepit hearing, I probably couldn't hear either one if they came along now. Can't you use that Eefer for a dog whistle??????

In my gang in high school, the soprano sax was very popular, it's just that nobody actually had one. I always thought it would make a nice addition to the rack, but my musical career sort of wound down when I began to see how hard it was to make a living that way.

I'm told the "C-melody" sax was actually quite popular in the 20s - and I saw quite a few thru early to mid 40s, especially in the local "western swing" bands where they refused to play everything in Bb for the convenience of the oddball horn player. There were also a number of "town bands" around my vicinity that had one or two. (I think they came mail order from Sears.) That's pretty close to a standard soprano, although I'd have gone for the "real" Bb Soprano.

John

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 12:07 AM

Well, well, well--after all these years, you finally come clean!   and after all, isn't the double reed sound a refined and perfected...well, you know what I mean---

But of course I am only kidding--I am truly impressed--the bassoon is probably the most daunting instrument of the orchestra--in the right hands, it can do almost anything, and in the wrong hands, it can do almost nothing--

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 04:13 AM

I saw the Big Chris Barber Band (11-piece) recently and one of the reed players played an instrument I didn't recognise, it had a bell like a bass clarinet but wasn't as large. I discovered it was a basset horn which is described as being a tenor clarinet. I hadn't come across one before, in all my years of watching jazz bands, and don't remember it from the wall charts of instruments in our music room at school (which I used to gaze at while failing to understand any of the musical theory they were trying to instill in me before I was dropped from music classes!).
Does it have any well-known non-classical exponents?

RtS

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:35 AM

Eric Dolphy was a great exponent of the Bass Clarinet, which, in his hands alone, was capable of some very interesting things-- as far as I know though, the alto fills out a certain kind of sound in the reed section, but doesn't have a lot of advantage as a solo instrument(though it just takes one imaginative player to bring it out front, like Coltrane did with the Soprano Sax)--

Frank Trumbauer was the great C-Melody sax player in the twenties, but no one else really carried it any farther--I have been told by sax people that this was because the C-Melody saxes that were available weren't particularly good instruments, though to me, it seems like a an instrument with a lot of potential--


IvanB--any chance your friend played a ContraBassoon?

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: fogie
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:56 AM

If you want to see some amazing old / transition instruments there is a great museum in Oxford called the Bate collection. It's free to go in and you can take photos. I was staggered at the evolution of such things as the oboes, flutes , and they have keyed flageolets with two chambers, a family of 'oons! and sub bass tubas, alpenhorns - you name it!
as a player of C-mel saxes, I think the big problem is that the mouthpieces are no longer made ,and the old ones are'nt the normal reed size. It's also strange that although you'd think they'd be ideal for folk tunes they dont go down to low A and the highest notes are difficult to blow, so I bounce between octaves.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 12:04 PM

Okay, Spaw, you're innocent this time. "Eefer" is slang for E-flat.

Subject: RE: what are the non-C instruments?
From: IvanB
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 08:40 PM

M. Ted - no, it was definitely a clarinet. He tried oboe once and couldn't handle the double reed.