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BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: dianavan Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:58 PM dck - you are soooooooo right. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: dick greenhaus Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:12 PM WEll, STand Up for Judas is by Leon Roselson--just for the record. Seems to me that since Jesus' death (and preceding Passion) was a necessary preamble to his Resurrection, and subsequent saving of the faithful from sin, the whole thing was planned by God, who should take the rap for the whole thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Nemesis Date: 25 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM Mark, exactly imo, someone had to "betray" Jesus in order for him to die to .. all what you said So, back to a music thread then and Dick Gaughan's "Stand up for Judas" ?? (Is that a banned song?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: freda underhill Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:26 PM some people only ever truly read their own comments on threads... and i suspect in life only hear their own voices.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Mark Clark Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:05 PM After skimming this thread, and others like it, one thing seems to jump right out. No one in the debate seems to have a grasp of Christian theology! In Christian theology, Jesus is the only person ever born to die. Without Jesus' suffering and death, there would be no Christianity. No one “killed Christ.” If you are a Christian of whatever stripe, you believe Jesus came to redeem us all through His suffering and death. If you are a Christian, then you simply can't be wishing Jesus hadn't suffered and died. What would be the deal with that? If anyone remembered Jesus at all, he just be another Rabi with a lot of good ideas. In Christianity, God provided for the redemption of mankind by offering His Son as a sacrifice. You can figure God knew Jesus was going to be tortured and killed. Do you think God created some souls to do the deed and be damned for it? Send a few people to hell and have their decendents persecuted because they had a part in the implementation of God's plan. Come on guys, think about it. The only proper Christian attitude toward Jesus' crucifixion is thankfulness and forgiveness. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: GUEST Date: 25 Feb 04 - 04:46 PM No McGrath, they don't think this pope is a heretic. It was that Vatican II pope they think was the heretic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Feb 04 - 04:43 PM For example when John Paul came out against the war on Iraq, he wasn't making any kind of infallible pronouncenent. That doesn't mean he was wrong. Catholic fundamentalists? It seems to me that the people who fit that label best are the hyper-traditionalists who, far from thinking the Pope is infallible, think he's a heretic... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Feb 04 - 04:30 PM I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about the "supreme authority of the Vatican," and a lot of that understanding is fostered by Catholic fundamentalists. Lots of people think the Pope claims infallibility for just about everything he says, and the fundies think that, too. The Doctrine of Infallility was promulgated in the 1870's. Since then, only two infallible statements have been made, both of them titles to Mary that don't make a heck of a lot of difference. Basically, in the Catholic Church, the old guys in Rome are upper management, and they deserve the same respect and disdain due to upper management everywhere. In most cases, they have very little to do with the faith and everyday life of most Catholics. Still, if you have a worldwide organization, somebody has to staff the home office. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Feb 04 - 03:57 PM Did I point a finger in your direction, dianavan? I was responding to a comment that John Hardly made up the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: dianavan Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:04 PM McGrath - I have nothing against Catholics but I do question the supreme authority of the Vatican and the many abuses of the church. I also question Jewish tradition, Protestant fundamentalism and Moslem extremists. For this, I am often called radical. What???? I thought part of my responsibility was to question. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:16 PM Seems to me that a touch of anti-Catholicism is the way a lot of tolerant people get a brief break from being tolerant. Fair enough, if it helps them. It's probably good for us. ................. I think myself interpreting the squabbles in the First Century, between what were essentially two varieties of Jews, as anti-Semitism is a bit misleading. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Feb 04 - 12:05 PM Hey, I like that, Amos... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM Good enough, Brucie. It's been said, with some merit, that religion is the opiate of the masses. Like any opiate, small doses can serve to accelerate healing, while larger ones lead to addiction and acute unreality. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Strick Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:47 AM Amen, brucie, what you said! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: John Hardly Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:47 AM It seems to not be nearly as anti-semitic as the majority on the mudcat are anti-catholic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Peace Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:07 AM Well, regardless of who killed Jesus, He forgave them while he was on the Rood. If forgiveness was good enough for Him, it's good enough for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Feb 04 - 07:14 PM I checked the Greek. In the Gospel of John, it definitely says "The Jews" (with a definite article) several times. John can easily be construed as anti-Semitic in modern times. There certainly was animosity and bitter disagreement between Christians and Jews at the time John was written, something that wasn't so strong at the time of the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, Luke), about 30 years earlier. But so there was disagreement and animosity - is that anti-Semitic? Don is right in saying that Jesus was executed by "the establishment." But in the location where Jesus lived, the Establishment was part Jewish, part Roman. Certainly, we would not want a depiction of the passion of Jesus to engender or express anti-Semitism, but does this mean we can never imply that any Jew ever did anything wrong? I guess we'll have to wait for the movie to come out, and then decide whether it's anti-Semitic or not. Still, I have to say I don't like being put on the defensive, especially in attacks from those who take a fundamentalist description of Christianity and use that to define and attack MY religious faith. What I believe has very little connection to fundamentalism. What I've seen of Mel Gibson's fundamentalist Catholic faith is not the same Catholic Church I belong to. It's an entirely different world, a world that is abhorrent to me. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Feb 04 - 06:21 PM And Walt Disney himself actually does appear to have been something of an antisemite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Strick Date: 23 Feb 04 - 06:13 PM "Maybe Disney should have made the movie, then everyone would be nice and we'd have no debate." No way. If Disney had made the movie, they would have tried to copyright the Gospels and would sue for copyright infringement anytime someone wore a cross. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 23 Feb 04 - 06:07 PM Seems to me that any form of fundementalism breeds hate, hypocrasy and intolerance, be it Protestant, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim based. Maybe Disney should have made the movie, then everyone would be nice and we'd have no debate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: freda underhill Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM my father was a Catholic who left the church before i was born. i knew i shouldn't have commented on something i didn't know anything about. but fools rush in.. thanks, especially Don Firth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Don Firth Date: 23 Feb 04 - 02:12 PM Jews, Romans—I think we're getting hung up on meaningless specifics here. Jesus was executed by the Establishment, which consisted of a confederation of the Roman occupation, the puppet government, and the Jewish clergy. The latter were just as stodgy and rigid as the clergies of most long established religions, including (obviously) a substantial number of Christian denominations extant these days. There is an argument that Barabbas was a metaphor rather than a real person. Bar Abbas means "Son of the Father," implying "a child of God," hence, Jesus died in the place of an established sinner (a condemned criminal and an allegory for all humankind), thus underlining the Sacrificial Lamb aspect of the Crucifixion. But assuming that Barabbas was a real person, he was pretty well known to the crowd, and having given the finger to the Romans, he was a bit of a hero to them. Jesus was just some kook who went around talking about loving everybody. . . . Am I a Christian? Not by most people's definition. Have I accepted Christ as my Savior? Hell, lady, I don't even know what that means! Do I think Jesus said (or is reputed to have said) some good things? Yes. Do I go to church? Yes, when the weather is good enough so I can get to the church in my electric wheelchair without getting rained on. Why do I go to this particular church? Because the folks who go there are a pretty nice bunch of people, and they don't just sit around worrying about their own personal salvation and fretting over what other people do in their bedrooms. They take passages like Matthew 25: 34-40 seriously, and act on them. They sponsor and run free meal programs in the community, and they're working with other churches to find inexpensive housing for the homeless, and are involved in a whole bunch of other programs in the real world. Incidentally, they don't qualify for Bush's "faith-based initiative" money because, being a Lutheran church, they don't belong to the Southern Baptist Convention. Communion every Sunday (open to everyone, whether they are members or not, and including children [who receive grape juice rather than wine]) is introduced with Pastor: Living God, Risen Christ, you make yourself known to us in the breaking of bread and the pouring of wine. Refresh us once again with these symbols of your healing presence in all the world.To me, that seems to capture the essence of it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM "The" Jews, with its implication that it refers to Jews in general, is in the English translation - but Latin doesn't have any definite articles, so the Vulgate doesn't carry that implication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:08 AM I don't think that there are reasonable people running around and blaming Jews for the death of Jesus. There's a small faction of Christian extremists who do - but heck, every group has loonies. But "the Jews killed Jesus" is not a dominant theme in mainstream Christianity. In general, the blame is placed on all mankind. My question is, are we expected to rewrite the New Testament, removing any implication that Jewish people took part in the execution of Jesus? If Mel Gibson's movie portrays the story as written, is that anti-Semitism? I will admit that the Gospel of John talks of "the Jews" in a way that seems to be provocative, at least. But it was written in another time. Somehow, I think we need to desensitize ourselves a bit, so we don't have to sanitize all the "bad stuff" out of historical writings. As for Jesus using power to avoid execution, that's the point. I see a parallel in Gandhi, a demonstration that we need to resolve the ills of the world through the strength of love and suffering, and not be brute force or sheer power. But in many way, I hate to get into discussions like these. Many Christians get all wound up in defending their faith and proving themselves right - apologetics, they call it. As I see it, my religious obligation is to care for the needs of the world God created. I'm not required to defend my faith - but I am required to live it. If you want to know what the Christian faith is about, read the Gospels. I'd recommend Matthew or Luke. Even if you're not a believer, they're good stories. The Sermon on the Mount, Chapters 5 to 7 of Matthew, gives a good statement of the essence of Christian faith. That's what Christianity is about, not what's preached by the television evangelists. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: freda underhill Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:51 AM i'm not a Christian... but this whole focus on "the Jews killed Jesus" is such a kneejerk, blame - throwing position. if anyone was Christian to care enough about who killed Jesus, wouldn't they be focussing on his message (forgiveness), rather than looking around for someone to blame. otherwise, haven't they missed the whole point? freda |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Rustic Rebel Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:37 AM I don't think it was Jesus who was crucified on the cross to begin with. It was a look-a-like, an imposter. Peter denied knowing the man, because he didn't know the man. Do you think someone with the power Jesus had would really let the Romans kill him? He was all ready gone, 'ascending' into a cloud of fire before they had a chance to get ahold of him. That is my humble, yet controversal opinion. Carry on.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Feb 04 - 02:02 AM Certainly, Peter, the Romans looked on Jesus as a troublemaker and one worthy of execution - that's what the story says, that it was Romans and Jews who participated in the execution of Jesus. Indeed, even one of his own Jewish followers took part. It's fairly well established that the Gospels were written between 65 and 100 AD, perhaps just a bit later for the Gospel of John. The canon of New Testament Scripture was fairly well set by 150 AD. By this time there wasn't much of a presence of the Christian church in Rome. It was centered in Greece and Greek Asia Minor, and wasn't particularly involved in Roman politics. It's more than a little far-fetched to think that the New Testament was written to please the Romans. The documents of the New Testament were written by the Church, for the Church. There's no evidence that Jesus was some sort of anti-Roman revolutionary. Quite the opposite seems to be the case - his followers expected a political Messiah, and Jesus insisted that wasn't what he was called to do. You seem to imply that this apolitical position of Jesus was something made up by the Church so it wouldn't get into trouble with Rome. Sorry - I can't buy that. I think that a very important part of the message of Jesus was that salvation does not come from politics or power. Too bad the later Church didn't heed that lesson. Where's this paradox you refer to, Peter? In the Gospels, Jesus refers to himself generally as Son of Man, a term whose meaning is not completely clear. He didn't directly claim to be God, and he didn't claim to be the Messiah. The theology of the divinity of Jesus is something that developed in the first hundred years or so after the death of Jesus, as people of faith reflected on the meaning of the life of Jesus. You can trace the development of that thinking in the Scriptures if you have an idea what was written when. The Christian faith was codified into the Nicene Creed in 325 AD, but most points of faith were quite well established in the New Testament, which was written over a period of about 55 to 100 AD. Jesus had no need to define himself or present some sort of theology or doctrine of himself. He was who he was. His primary concern was getting people to love God and one another, and he wasn't particularly concerned about self-definition. In reflecting on the meaning of his life, Christians came to believe that he was God, present on earth - and that's what they've believed for a couple of millenia now. It's not something you can prove or disprove - but that's what generations of Christians have believed since the very beginning. It makes sense to them. And yes, anti-Semitism and all racial and ethnic and religious oppression is deplorable. The Christian faith has at times been used as a rationalization and a vehicle for this oppression, and that is even more deplorable. But that sort of oppression is an aberration, something that is absolutely contrary to the essence of Christian faith. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 Feb 04 - 08:39 PM Yes, I go along with that, McG. OK Joe, but if the crime was indeed down to Everyman (which would no doubt chime with the folklore character of the early oral accounts) then it is regrettable that the Christian (later Catholic) church singled out "the Jews" (sic) for approbrium. But there is still a paradox that you are ignoring Joe. Even according to biblical scripture, Jesus was presented as the King of the Jews, and the son of Joseph. He referred to God as "his father," but he did not, during the years of his ministry, go round claiming to be the Messiah, and that is not why people flocked to see him. For sure he could do tricks like turning water into wine, but this was no smarter than those some other prophets had done. Somewhere along the line, his royal status was quietly ditched, and he became the Son of God, sent down to earth as an ordinary, humble kind of guy. I can't see why you have difficulty accepting that someone presented as a direct descendant of Abraham might present a challenge to the occupying forces - a challenge they would have no compunction about sorting: they crucified people be the thousand, often on little more than a whim. Similarly, can you not accept that the developnent of a church based on Jesus's teaching would have been compromised if Jesus had been projected as a champion of any kind of "Romans out" tendency. Those first Christians were living under a brutally repressive occupying army. Obviously I can't say for definite that the obove factors influenced the message of the bible, but it is at least a possibility. It's a possibility that has much credibility among some respected scholars of the period. I am puzzled that you decline even to consider it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Feb 04 - 06:54 PM One of the confusions is the use in this context of the term "the Jews" instead of "Jews". That's really a fault in translations into odern languages such as English, and it feeds into a sense of anti-semitism where the actual original text doesn't carry that implication, and this is used by people who are lookimg for some kind of justification for hatred and perecution. "The Jews" aren't responsible for anything, and can't be, and nor are "the Romans". The same goes, in various contexts, for "The Christians" or "the Muslims" or "the Germans" or "the British" or "the Americans". Jews, Christians, Muslims, Germans, British, Americans and every other variety of human beings have done, and continue to do, some pretty horrible things, but that's just not the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Feb 04 - 04:41 PM Peter, I don't think the execution of Jesus had anything to do with the Jews being Jewish. I think the message is that Jesus was killed by Everyman for preaching a message that contradicted the selfishness, greed, and power of the world. But where Jesus lived, Everyman happened to be Jewish. To deny that is ludicrous. It just doesn't make sense to dance around and bend over backwards to be politically correct and say that the Jews had nothing to do with the death of Jesus, and that Jesus was killed by all those nasty Romans who are now extinct. The story (the Gospel) is the basic belief of Christianity, whether it is historically correct in all details or not (newspapers aren't always historically correct in every detail, either). The story says that there were Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of blasphemy and that there was a Jewish mob who supported that accusation, and that they were involved in the death of Jesus. It's not a reason to hate Jews. It's just what the story says - and it's too late to rewrite the story in a way that avoids offending sensitivities. The Jewish and Roman leaders are to blame because of their self-righteousness, greed, and desire to protect their power - not because they belonged to any ethnic or religious group. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:28 PM McG, you're quite right that Jewish involvement was a possibility, but no-one's yet come up with any evidence that would find Jews guilty even under the modest "balance of probabilities" that Blair now advocates for terrorist trials, to say nothing of "beyond reasonable doubt" to which we have hitherto subscribed. In any case it would be unreasonable to condemn the Jews on the strength of what some collaborators may have done. (I realise that you, McG, were not doing so.) There were plenty of Jews who fought to the death against the occupying forces, including every one of those at Masada. Joe, I'm sorry, but you're being ridiculous. I've come nowhere near suggesting the gospels were any sort of plot, anti-semitic or otherwise. I don't think that was it at all. But you do need to take account of the order in which the accounts of Jesus's life were recorded, starting with Paul's work, and how they varied even among themselves. You need to consider the tensions among the apostles in respect of taking their message beyond Judaism, and above all you need to consider that the apostles were developing a creed around a guy who could hardly not have been a serious nuisance to the Romans - and who, let's face it, they executed. My guess is that Mark, Paul et al, were honorably intentioned, but the fact is that the religion they did so much to establish turned out to suit the Romans very well - and which derived its greatest impetus from being adopted as the empire's state religion. The unifying effect of Christianity's then unique intolerance of other religions was just what Constantine needed. (Gibbon deals with this at length in chapters 15 and 16 of "Decline and Fall".) Your faith that Jesus was a victim of the Jews is just that, Joe. Your faith. It happens to be a faith that has, down the centuries, inspired loathing of Judaism, and sometimes intentionally so. But it has no basis in fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Cruiser Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:08 PM Jesus, from this atheist's perspective, was a preacher (historical evidence) similar to the popular modern televangelists. He was just a man that believed he was the Son of God and believed in miracles, as did his followers. He was mistaken then and "believers" are mistaken now. Cruiser |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Sorcha Date: 22 Feb 04 - 02:53 PM And, I don't really think he inteneded to start a new religion....just clean up the old one because of politics and greed. Sound familiar? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM Frankham: I disagree that "there is no evidence for even the existence of Jesus". I am not debating his divinity, status, any of that. The notion that a historicl Jesus may not have existed has been around, and it rears its head from time to time. However, there are too amny 'testaments' to the existence of Jesus. I don't refer you only to the Bible (NT), but also to the Nag Hammadi and the DS Scrolls. We have the 'evidence' if you will of disparate writers in both the NT and the Koran making reference to Jesus (Yeshua). I am not playing a name game here. If Jesus as he is represented in the NT is not the Jesus upon whom the Christian religions are based, then there was someone just like him upon whom the Christian religions are based. I am aware that only a snippet of his life is addressed. But, that is common in older writings. Other than the Welsh "Mabinogian", we don't have many references to Arthur, either. And Robin Hood is sorely lacking in the literature. Don't mean to sound antagonistic; such is not my intent. However, I wouldn't buy into the "Jesus may not have existed" scenario. Too much says he did. The real question, in my humble estimation (and it is humble), is did he exist as we have him iconized and represented. Sincerely, Bruce M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:07 PM But bear in mind that as much then as now the labels were not the substance and in fact are isleading. It is true that those who called for his death were Jewish, but their reactions were less Jewish than simply human. The exact same dramatization could as easily have occurred among Zoroastrians or any other cultural or ethnic collective. The fact that they were in Judea being Jewish is purely secondary and this should never be forgotten: It was humans who crucified him and it was humans who tried to defend him. It was humans who felt threatened by whatt jhe taught and humans, too, who felt uplifted by it. Let's not be racist about the problem of human aberration. It leads nowhere -- fast. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Feb 04 - 12:58 PM It was a family quarrel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Feb 04 - 12:46 PM It may seem trite, Peter, but I don't know how else to say it. It's well-nigh impossible to whitewash the part that Jews took in the execution of Christ. His teaching was offensive to those in both the Jewish and Roman power structures - and it still presents an embarrassing challenge to ALL power structures. That challenge, that embarrassment, resulted in his death. If he had been in Spain in the 16th century, he would have been expecuted by the Spanish Inquisition. But he was in Judea, so he was killed by Jews, at least in part. I think the message is that he was killed by self-righteous people who wanted to protect their position of power - not that he was killed by any particular ethnic group. In the Gospels, Jesus repeatedly ranted against the Pharisees, who were, in general, self-righteous, rigidly observant Jews who often enjoyed economic and social status. Although it may be hard for churchgoing people to stomach, it seems that "the enemy" are the self-righteous, religious people who pass judgment on others and who see themselves as superior to others. Sorry, Peter, but I can't buy your implication that the Gospels were some sort of anti-Semitic plot. The Gospels were written by people who were very close to their Jewish roots.. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Frankham Date: 22 Feb 04 - 10:51 AM There are three major oxymorons. 1. Bible scholarship 2. Military intelligence 3.Economic forecasting. The first involves a lot of theory and no evidence for even the existence of Jesus. It's all about faith kinda' like finding WMDs in Iraq. That said, I like Jesus and what he stood for. He was a true communist and really cared about the poor unlike so many of the Psdeudo-Christians that have hi-jacked Christianity that are around today with big churches, big religious budgets and private elevators to Heaven. Mel Gibson has combined a Hollywood formula with his religious convictions. It's a winning combination (for making money). Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Feb 04 - 10:39 AM Given what generally happens in occupations, there's nothing implausible in the suggestion that the local collaborators would have had a hand to play in bringing about the execution of somebody who had been seen as stirring up trouble. After all, when people make waves in that kind of context, that means potential problems for the collaborators as well as for the occupying forces. And theocracies tend not to be too reluctant to come down pretty heavily on religious dissidents. Nothing the least implausible in the Gospel accounts there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 Feb 04 - 09:51 AM Thanks for the link, Guest, whoever you are. If Jerry M delves into it, I think he'll find that what's going on is not about three high-school rascists with a pamphlet. His post is useful though, as an indication of how easily many Americans can be scared by almost anything these days - and therefore how eaily their fears can be exploited by an admin like Bush's. Joe, you said: Since Jesus was Jewish and surrounded by Jews, there seems to be a good chance that the locals were at least partly responsible for his death. Considering you're in a position to bring more scholarship than most of us to this question, I'd say this observation was a bit trite. Jesus was born into a community that was under Roman occupation, and he was killed by the method applied exclusively by the Romans. Yet the gospel accounts, which are at odds with known history in many ways, are at pains to play up Jewish involvement. For instance the bit about the (Jewish) crowd choosing Barabas for pardon rather than Jesus must be fanciful, as the custom of a Passover pardon, on which it is predicated, never existed and in any case would not have been observed by the Romans. I don't claim to know what actually went on, but I can see that the scriptural accounts are sometimes in conflict with each other and are often at odds with external accounts, particularly those of Josephus and Tacitus, and the known history of the period. Q. Why would the Romans want to crucify Jesus, beyond the fact that they crucified countless hundreds of people with - by present-day standards - very little reason? A. Because Jesus was, or was claimed to be, of royal dissent, and as such was a potential focal point for resistance to the occupation. Matthew spells out his lineage, tracing it through Solomon and David right back to Abraham. The bloodline reaches Jesus not through his mum but through his "dad", Joseph. PLainly Jesus was at this stage being presented as (potentially) "the King of the Jews" and decidedly not as "the Son of God". I would surmise that he came to assume the status of a revered prophet, closely tuned to God, and that the messianic mantle was thrust upon him only after his martyrdom. But that's just my conjecture. Q. If Jesus had offended the Romans with sedition, why would the gospel writers need to suggest instead that he had offended the Jews with blasphemy? A. Probably because, by the time the gospels were being written, the Jews were under the Roman cosh like never before. They knew that the Jesus cult would have no chance of survival if it were seen as anti-Roman. Mark's gospel is widely believed to have been written around the time of the fall of Jerusalem (70CE?) and the Jewish last stand at Masada (73CE?). His gospel goes out of its way to present Jesus as obedient to the Roman occupation. But Mark is stuck with the fact that Jesus died on a Roman cross. So according to Mark, Jesus is tried by the Romans for sedition (threatening the temple) and acquitted. He is passed to the Jews, whose Sanhedrin finds him guilty of blasphemy. Rather than have him stoned, the Sanhedrin passes him back to the Romans for crucifixion. THis is hardly a likely scenario. Jewish criticisms of the film that I have heard have been to the effect that Mel Gibson has followed the simplistic Catholic and anti-Jewish line of the gospels in his account of a piece of history that in truth remains obscure. Maybe when I see the film I will form a different view. If not, I will be a bit peeved that the only way I could find out for myself was by contributing to the film's commercial success! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Bohdran Killer Date: 22 Feb 04 - 05:13 AM I've got news for you Joe, we are |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Teresa Date: 22 Feb 04 - 04:57 AM Well, it seems to me that the talk-show host Dr. Laura has been a unifying figure for fundamentalists of all the major religions, at least in the forefront. As for what could be going on "behind the scenes", that could be just as scary, if not more so, IMO. Teresa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:50 AM Yes, it is interesting how much hype the Catholic and Protestant fundamentalists have given this movie. Moderate Catholics are taking a wait-and-see stance, and we liberals are downright suspicious. I've seen some Mel Gibson movies that I liked, and some that I didn't like so much. Maybe this one will be a good one, and maybe not. As for anti-Semitism - since Jesus was Jewish and surrounded by Jews, there seems to be a good chance that the locals were at least partly responsible for his death. It's hard to report the death of Jesus without involving Jews in one way or another. If he had lived and died in Hull, we could all be prejudiced against Hullites, I suppose. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM Myself, I prefer to talk in terms of duties rather than rights - including a duty not to kill. How that translates into law is another matter - there are all kinds of duties we have which aren't enforced in law, and can't be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Strick Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:17 PM "The American evangelicals are front line defenders of Sharon and the political right in Israel, because their god propaganda tells them the Jews must control Jerusalem for The Rapture to occur, which will kill off all the Jews and Muslims, so the good Christians can get on with ruling heaven and earth." Sorry, the bit about killing off all the Jews and Muslims is fundamentally wrong. See Romans 11:25-29 and Revelation 7:1-8. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: michaelr Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM McGrath -- "Right to life" here in US denotes people who want to deny women the right to safe abortions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:10 PM Maybe it's different over in the States, but generally speaking in most places "Right to life", for Catholics is seen as entailing being against the death penalty, and pretty dubious about wars generally, these days - especially "pre-emptive" ones. I don't think those kind of attitudes would really go down too well with the kind of fundamentalists in the picture GUEST presents. Maybe that might not apply with the Lefebvre variety of schismatic ultras, but I can't imagine much love lost between them and the more extreme Protestant fundamentalists either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: mack/misophist Date: 21 Feb 04 - 06:55 PM I'm afraid the GUEST is probably right. The bishops and the televangelists cooperate well enough when they choose. They reason they haven't done so the last few years is because Pat Robertson's people were making a special effort to convert Catholics who worked with them on birth control and abortion issues. It pissed the bishops off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Peace Date: 21 Feb 04 - 06:22 PM Like the cannibals eating the comedian. One says to the other, "Does this taste funny to you?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Right Wing Catholic & Protestant Fundies From: Peace Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:45 PM That's pretty funny. |
