BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:58 AM

George Will is so far out in right field that I can't hear what he is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:49 AM

Sorry, don't mean to have a theological debate here. Much truth in what you say given the tension between Romans and John 3:16. Some even think other Christians are going to hell. They do remember what Isiah, Jeremiah, the minor Prophets and Revelation say about the Remnant. Since they can't tell who will or will not eventually be "saved", they have to respect them as human beings. No one I know is blithely sitting around waiting for everyone else to die and go to hell. Only the most annoying go around trying to convert everyone.

Even the most hardcore know that the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. They know that it isn't important that you consider this His first or second visit, only that you accept Him when He comes.

Now if you're from my tradition, Romans 11 opens up a lot of interesting possiblilities, particularly if you know that God, while keeping His promises, still gets to do what He pleases. Over the centuries it's the people who try to put God in a box and wrap Him up with a bow that usually get the bigest surprises.

Sorry for the sermonette. I know this isn't the place for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:09 AM

Strick, the problem with using Romans 11 in that way is that Romans 11 says that all men have been made disobedient by God, so that he may have mercy on them all. In other words, according to Romans 11, everyone will be saved.

But most fundamentalist Christians do not believe this. They do not believe that Jews will automatically be saved. They believe that Jews will, in fact, go to Hell unless they convert to Christianity.

I can't speak for your friend, and fundamentalist Christianity is not monolithic, but certainly "accepting Jesus Christ" is essential for salvation to MOST fundamentalist Christians. Inasmuch as Jews do not accept Jesus, they are destined not to be saved.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:06 AM

I do think there is a trend wherein it's cool and free-thinking to criticize Israel. Because compare them to other countries, right?But compared to a lot of other countries it seems on balance that they are being specially singled out for this brand of "fairness."

I disagree. South Africa was criticized just as much. More so, I'd say, because when we criticized South Africa, we didn't raked through the coals for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 11:54 PM

The above was before reading the column, not that I disown it.
   Boy it goes quickly from Europe to America then from (sometimes) trendy criticism of Israel to Hitler and exterminating people. Look! it's a bird! it's a plane! no it's a dweeby guy in a bow tie and a cape making lots of absurd over-reaching leaps in a single bound. Too quick for me, it's like reading soup. A nasty one with weird crap thrown in to make it seem "gourmet." Maybe he's reduced to this gunk because he's as aware as anyone that the conservative president and candidate is an incompetent disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:23 PM

George Will is a pretty darned good conservative journalist, given extra credit maybe because there are so many popular put-on hacks in the field. But he's not so bad as a many others. Backed into a corner he merely throws up his hands and wonders why we are evil, but at some point we all do--except for some liberal hacks who think one day we will all be much better people if we just keep mouthing the right platitudes. He's better than that, at least.

   I do think there is a trend wherein it's cool and free-thinking to criticize Israel. Because compare them to other countries, right?But compared to a lot of other countries it seems on balance that they are being specially singled out for this brand of "fairness." Some of my Jewish friends criticize the living crap out of Israel, but they've been there, recently, and know much more about it than I do.

I don't know that the good of this country could have been achieved without the bad that was part of the same damn deal. Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:33 PM

"George Will is one of the most respected journalists there is."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 04:26 PM

Sometimes you have to beat them at their own game.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:52 PM

Wow, bible spouting, just like on cable TV.

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:17 PM

"In other words, Right-Wing Fundamentalist Christians believe they must defend the Jews' right to Israel so that the rapture can occur and the Jews can go to Hell."

Bless you, Nerd but I have to disagree. In the words of a deeply fundamentalist friend, "the Jews have their deal with God, we have ours". I know not everyone agrees, but it's scripturally based:

Romans 11:25-29

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
       he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    And this is my covenant with them
       when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

(italics added)

Not trying to convert anyone, just pointing out that a good number of fundamentalists (not that I'm one) firmly support Israel because they believe they're on the same side.

It's sad that for once people are trying to get along rather than kill each other and we can't be pleased with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:18 PM

You're welcome, MG. Thanks for the lead to the article. A few years back, I recall reading an article published by the Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies in which video 'games' available on the internet allowed one to run an extermination camp. You could choose the people you put in the camp (Jew, Muslim, Turk, etc) and the purpose of the 'game' was to kill off the quota as inexpensively as possible. I remember that the 'game' was popular amongst youth in some European countries. I imagine the White Supremist groups have their equivalent. There are some very sick puppies out there.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:32 AM

That's an interesting article though there are some arguments or formulations I do not agree with. Two examples:

(1) A formulation: The choice of the word 'migration' (from the right to the left) is very unfortunate. Something that migrates leaves the old place. 'Spreading' is a much better word. The left in several countries adopts anti-semitism but the right doesn't give it up.

(2) The argument anti-semitism = anti-zionism is put in such a blunt way that the author of the article cab be read as meaning that any criticism of Israel's politics could be seen as anti-semitism. I do not believe the author means that but he comes dangerously close to this type of argumentation.

The examples in the article are cleverly selected to bolster the intended impression.

However, the main argument sadly is true: Anti-semitism, disguised, unintentional, or even open, has become acceptable in the more extreme parts of the (European) left. I restrict myself to this continent, for I do not know enough about others.

We had at least two other threads about that theme, one for instance starting from an article by Pilar Rahola (easy to find in a search if you care).

In several European countries with sizable Arab minorities (France, in particular) physical attacks on Jews by Arabs are increasing. The Arabs in these countries are, let there be no doubt about it, on the lowest steps of the social ladder, exploited by the white majority, with little chance to get a job with a decent wage or a job at all, with little acceptance of their different culture. The left as usual, good on them, stand by the underpriviledged people with a different culture. The underpriviledge take their rage and fury, the origions of which are understandable, towards another small minority, though mostly not underpriviledged, and try to win a war in the host country which they consider they lose in their countries of origin. The left, apprehensive of the origins of the rage, go too far in endorsing the ways in which very few Arabs living in Europe find an outlet for their feelings.

Being on the side of the underpriviledged and against the oppressors it seems now natural to support the fight against Israel. Some easily forget that a small minority in a large region (Jews) once has been supported by the left in their fight for separation and independence.

In Germany, open anti-semitism is still restricted to the right (for bad historical reasons). When e chairman of the Greens once made anti-semitic remarks he had to resign within a few days. But, on the other hand, this very man is the only Green candidate to win his constituency (the others come into the parliament by proportional representation). So, at least, anti-semitic remarks don't make a left candidate uneligible.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:56 AM

Yes, the right wing currently has an unholy alliance with Zionists, because in Christian fundamentalist belief Israel must be in Jewish hands for the prophecy of Revelation to be fulfilled. In other words, Right-Wing Fundamentalist Christians believe they must defend the Jews' right to Israel so that the rapture can occur and the Jews can go to Hell. Meanwhile, the Zionists don't believe in the Christian prophecy, so they maintain the alliance which is in their immediate interest.

But don't fool yourself. It doesn't make the right wing any less anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:31 PM

I have to admit. There is much truth to the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:20 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:39 PM

Hmmmmm, no reactions yet.

George Will is one of the most respected journalists there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:57 PM

Brucie, Thanks for doing the link right. I tested it and it goes to where I wanted it, the article titled:

"Gibson's movie should be least of Jews' worries"

Thanks, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:49 PM

http://www.suntimes.com/output/will/cst-edt-geo25.html


Which article, MG?

Subject: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:40 PM

Here is a fine column from 2/25/04 by George Will.
More an more Jews unfortunately are realizing the shift in anti-semitism from right to left.

If the blue click thing doesn't work, please cut & paste and read this relevant article.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/will/cst-edt-geo25.html