The role of folk clubs today

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: treewind
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:47 PM

Les - your two-tier idea of a folk club, with a beginners session at the beginning and the proper club starting later, has been done before, I heard with great success. Go for it!

This problem is solved in some other places by the scheme I mentioned before, when the same people run a very informal pub session in parallel with the club. I have actually seen singers start (very nervously) in the session and months later have enough confidence to be able to sing in the club. This is a Very Good Thing, of course.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: treewind
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:22 PM

"Guest": "the percentage of the populace currently actively involved in the traditional english folk scene... is far less than the percentage of people who's roots do not hail from England."

While the existence of all this music from other cultures is all very exciting and not in any way to be discouraged, it is a very sad corollary that most English people do not even recognise their own folk culture when they hear it. On more that one occasion I have been in a session in a English pub where we were playing English music, (including an instrument uniquely invented by an Englishman...) and bystanders come up and ask us if (or tell us) we're playing Irish music. If you went into a session in Scotland or Ireland and asked anyone what the music was they might say it was folk or traditional but they'd never say it was something foreign.
(rant over...)

There's another thing about "world music" that has come to my attention recently. Much of what finds its way into the "world" category in a British record shop is the cultural equivalent in its own country of rock, pop, easy listening or even classical music.

The truth is that there is no such thing as world music - it's pretty well known that the term was invented by a group of record industry marketing chiefs as a convenient heading under which to sell commercial music to bigger market.

I'm with Ian Anderson of fRoots who pointedly includes English music as world music, while the American Grammy association's definition of world music apparently excludes anything sung in English.

So I'm sorry, but I don't agree that music from the rest of the world is the future of English folk music, any more than I should believe that Mongolian overtone chanting is the future of Flamenco or thet Hardanger fiddles are the future of Salsa.
(I just know that I'm now going to find exactly those combinations featured in some edition of a certain mag....)

Anahata

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:39 AM

Thanks for that Countess Richard.

It helps a lot to think that I may be on the right track. :-)

Sooz has been so so helpful with very sound advice.

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:26 AM

Les

I was disappointed to learn from your thread on the proposed Market Rasen Club that it is not now happening. Your description above sounds just the right open-minded and inclusive policy so lacking across what passes for a 'folk club scene' today.

It was, of course, a shame to miss out on such a good venue. However, maybe it will work out better to start with a less ambitious venture - say a session in a friendly pub - where prospective residents could meet and sort out repertoire while mentoring relative beginners. You would then have time to build experience (and funds) before settling on another, even more ideal, permanent venue.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:55 AM

This is a very interesting thread for me.
I am trying to get a Folk Club going in Market Rasen, if I can find somewhere that is folkie friendly - already been let down on that score.

From my point of view, its seems pretty pointless giving somebody the floor, who is not a competent singer. The songs they sing are not the important issue. You can't like all the songs or styles. But to me a bad voice is going to turn away new members.

I have already made a link with the local school to accomodate very good singers (youngsters) who will want to sing at the club. I would like to give at least one floor spot each evening for such a singer. I have been promised that if any of these youngsters come along, that they will have good voices and will therefore be worth listening to.

Anybody who has offered their services so far have a good track record. To me recomendation is critical. I would rather turn somebody down than be embarrassed or they be embarrassed. I dont'mean that in a nasty way at all.

What I want to do, is offer not so confident singers or players a chance to work alongside the competent singers and players. That way they get a chance to do something without being thrown to the wolves.
So I would be allotting a 30 min slot maybe more for artists to mix and play together. I am sure this will help to encourage the less confident. It also gives somebody who plays an instrument but does not sing a chance to play in a group as such. This gives them a chance to show what they are made of. You never know what can happen from such an idea. Maybe a new folk group or 2.

Hopefully by giving competent groups/singers floorspots, young singers floorspots and anybody else a chance to mix and match, each night will be a success, and encourage people to come and watch and come back on a regular basis.

I appreciate that not everybody will agree with my thoughts, and I welcome any constructive comments.

Remember, that I am a person who doesn't sing or play, but would love to keep folk music and verse (whatever that may be) alive.
I am prepared to work hard at making a success of it.

I am also very aware that the only way it can be a success is the people who are performing. They are the most important thing of all. Everybody I have made contact with have been very kind and helpful, except The Club which I was going to use.

Les

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: madwaff
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:09 PM

I think we may be doing OK up here - first meet of the month is guest/club night - if we have a guest, they feature majorly, with club support; if not, everyone who wants to has the opportunity to do a (usually) 3-tune floor spot. Second meet is committee night, after the meeting it's singaround, anybody welcome to try out anything they like (to critical(!) acclaim). Sing whatever style you like, blues, jazz, folk, rock - you get listened to, encouraged, criticised; but, above all, treated fairly. Some may not like what you do(who likes everything?), but that doesn't restrict your right to do it. If there's a clique, I've never noticed - if you're an honest performer, they give you due credit.
btw - it's Fyvie Folk Club - advert over!

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:17 PM

Harvey.......huge is a BNP word? Only if you take it as a criticism. I think it is celebratory and something to be proud of.

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:10 PM

I didn't mean to give the impression that the traditional English musical heritage had gone out of the window, to the contrary, I think it will be one of many traditional musical heritages celebrated for many years to come.

I would hazard a guess,and it's only a guess, that the percentage of the populace currently actively involved in the traditional english folk scene,and by that I mean the number of people freqeunting traditional english folk clubs, is far less than the percentage of people who's roots do not hail from England.

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM

"huge proportion of the populace are the offspring of parents from places other than the UK."

A fair point, but don't exaggerate.."huge" is a BNP word.

"It's going to be in central Birmingham,"

That's where mine was!
Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel.....

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:12 PM

Hi Harvey

Yes, I think Jim Moray will start a club, I imagine after he gets back from his Australian tour in April. It's going to be in central Birmingham, I think. Will they let me in? Well, it's nothing to do with money. Or age, though I can well understand the suspicion of younger artists' hesitancy and suspicion given the way they've been dissed and patronised by old farts in the revival-style club setup. It's more to do with a willingness to break with convention while retaining absolute respect for the tradition, neither of which is present in abundance among my contemporaries. I just hope the younger performers recognise me as a little more open-minded..

Guest,

You are right to an extent but it's something of a distortion to give the impression that the English traditional musical heritage has gone out of the window! Many musicians are incorporating aspects of world music into their arrangements, and many more are sharing venues with different genres. But the traditional repertoire is very much alive and thriving. Just look around!

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:29 PM

Nowadays a huge proportion of the populace are the offspring of parents from places other than the UK.
Their roots and folk music are not from the traditionally known UK scene.

There is a thriving World music scene which reflects this. It represents many races and it's vibrancy extols it's popularity.
It is an all encompassing "folk" music.
The clubs offering this sort of music have no problem filling their floors.It offers a wide ranging audience something to identify with.

IMHO this is the future of "folk" music.

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:27 PM

"he says somebody young may well invent an entirely new kind folk club, but it won't be recognisable to the older folkie generation"

So he's talking about it, but will he START it?
Mine was called "The Broadside" in Hurst St Brum, and we only booked songwriters, that was our speciality. There was a purely Trad club, an Irish Trad club,an English come-everybody club,...there was something for everyone in Brum, but we DID it.

"will still let me in"
Well, if you show the colour of your coin what does your age matter?

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:46 PM

I won't wade in with all the stuff I've said here before on this subject because Harvey and Anahata have just summed it all up so eloquently.

What I do fervently hope though is that clubs like the one Jim Moray plans and the others that will surely follow, presenting our traditional heritage in a way that's relevant to how lives are lived today, will still let me in.

However, I have to say in support of the Twickenham club that it is extremely well organised. Artists who get floor spots there always fully merit the space and are worth a listen - there's no putting on the bloke in the corner who cannot hold a tune or remember the words just because he's been coming for ever.

It's booking policy isn't always to my taste but I know that when I do go the music will be of the highest quality, the sound good and the surroundings pleasant. If a club wants to attract punters, this is surely the way to go.

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: treewind
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:24 PM

Harvey, spot on about the music halls, variety circuit and WMC's - a similar thought vaguely occurred to me but you put it far better than I could, with those specific examples.

The idea of a new generation of folk venue already exists. In the Jim Moray interview in fRoots he says somebody young may well invent an entirely new kind folk club, but it won't be recognisable to the older folkie generation. The folk revival in the 60's had an air of subversion and rebellion about it and the the next one will do the same, distancing itself from the establishment.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: wendyg
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:23 PM

It's true. Lots of the clubs I remember from when I was performing full-time in the late 1970s are gone. Those that are still around often have much smaller audiences, and you *don't* see a lot of young people, although I expect that acts like Boden and Spiers and Eliza Carthy will draw those in, because they give folk music a younger, fresher feel.

And some of those clubs are much less open to untried singers than they were. My "home" club, Twickenham, often has only three floor spots on a guest night, and most of those go to people they already know from singers' nights or who have been recommended by someone they know.

wg

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM

Following on from Treewinds point...The role of folk clubs today is very different to what it was.It's a generation thing. The young do what they do and then carry on doing it until old age. Their children do not do the same thing.Unless young musicians want to meet regularly and play for an audience that wants to listen in pub rooms etc then the folk clubs as they have been known will die with the retirement of their organisers.The process is already well under way and the all year round club scene is being replaced by the summer festival scene. The loss of the weekly bread and butter gig will make it very hard for most young folkies to earn a living as pro's, although some will be able to do so on the arts centre, village hall circuit. It's all happened before to jazz.
Where is the music hall circuit that supported literally thousands of "turns", the variety circuit that supported the next generation of pros, the working men's clubs that followed after variety? It's as natural a process as the changing of the seasons. Any popular entertainment starts, blossoms, and dies along with its generation. It can never be repeated the way it was.
I'm talking here about the folk clubs, not folk music, which of course will continue in various guises as it always has.
What is called a folk club by many today bears no relation to the folk clubs of the past. They appear to be gatherings of people having a session. In a way, they are the last links with a phenomenon that was at its peak nearly 40 years ago.
In 1970 for example I played in folk clubs that were generally heaving with people in the most unlikely places;
Bedford, Birmingham (Digbeth, Aldridge, West Bromwich,Centre,Solihull,
Bromsgrove, Erdington, Smethwick, Yardley,Acocks Green, all suburbs of the city, all thriving clubs) The Black Country, (Wolverhampton (3clubs),West Bromwich,Halesowen,Lower Gornal,Walsall (2 clubs).
Oxford, Coventry(2clubs)Leicester,Colne,Preston,Blackpool,Accrington,Burnley,Clitheroe,Bacup, Poynton,Middlesbrough, Hyde,Manchester, Aldermaston,Bristol(2 clubs),Farnborough,Exmouth,London(3 clubs), Liverpool, West Kirby, Bromsgrove,Lichfield,Bognor regis, Wooten Wawen,Brinklow, barnsley, Surbiton,Brewood, Portsmouth, Bewdley, Little Sutton, Kidderminster, Chasetown, Lymington, Addlestone,Ewell, Banbury, Wallasey,Altrincham, Ashington,Chichester,Leamington Spa.
College clubs at;West Midlands Education Coll, Saltley Coll,Shoreditch Coll,Wrexham Coll,Aston University,Surrey Uni, Kings College London,Westhill Coll.
All of these were folk clubs, and I wasn't everybody's cup of tea, as no performer is, so there were many more than those listed that I never played, particularly down South and in the far North.There's not one in the whole of Wales or Scotland. Yet I still managed 121 gigs in the year including a few concerts and festivals, and I wasn't the hardest working by any means..
In 1971 I added; Newbury,Stourport,Warrington,Chester, Derby,Brownhills,Uttoxeter,Newport,(shropshire)Perrenporth,Padstowe,Braunton,Wheaton Aston,Barry Island, Kingswinford,Wellington,Farnborough,Hull,Plymouth,Barnsley,
Huddersfield, Leeds,Halifax, Hazelslade,Burton,Chasetown, Godalming,Nuneaton,Bury St Edmunds,Haverhill, Oswestry,Cleethorpes,Cannock,Stourbridge,Leicester,Turville, Norwich, Chelmsford, Forest of Dean, Havant,Petersfield, Scunthorpe,Stockport,High Wycombe, Aberystwyth,Royston, Bishop Stortford,Plymouth,Wrexham....all folk clubs as were Notts Coll, Aberystwyth Uni, Aston Uni, Bishop Lonsdale's Coll,Lancaster Coll,Notts Uni,Canley Coll.
I did 141 club gigs that year, that's nearly 3 a week. How many of those places listed above can still boast a successful club?
There's no such structure for the young musicians today and the only way they will get it is to create it, but is the audience from their own generation there to support them as it was for us back then? I think that's the question and the problem so many good young musicians face today.Without the bread a butter they have to go for the more populist approach if they wish to make their living, and many folkies dislike anything that smacks of "commercialism" as we see on one thread where we're asked to vote for a best "non-commercial" cd. For the person that's made it, a non-commercial cd is a failure if they wish to be full time musicians.So the folk world today creates this dilemma, failure to earn a living but gained credibilty in a parochial scene, or success and brickbats from the same people.Maybe the hope is that the young audience won't see success as failure. However I did notice on TV when we saw Kate Rusby's audience that the majority appeared to be older than her, many considerably so.
In 1970 as I've shown, a good living could be had in thriving clubs without compromising yourself in any way.
(Then the audience paired off, got married had kids, stopped going to folk clubs, raised kids, retired and now....they're coming back out again, but not in the modern pub, more in the arts centre and the small theatre, as treewind said.)

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: dog my cat
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:46 PM

It is a sad fact of life that many folk clubs have very small attendances even for guest evenings. However, there are still many many many clubs in the UK. I don't see them as a dying breed yet but they will if they don't evolve.

Folk music is an evolving tradition, it always has been. The folk revival in the 60's moved swiftly into merging it with electric instruments (Fairport et al.) That did it no harm, it brought more people to the tradition who might not have gone there otherwise, me included.

Those of us who are holding the tenure of that tradition presently must accept those youngsters (and there are quite a few) who want to take the trad music and put a modern slant on it....mix it with rock, electronics garage etc. (Peatbog Faeries, Shooglenifty etc).

The arran sweater brigade will probably sudder at the prospect but if its to evolve and move in those swirling circles we must help provide the venues to let the youngsters do that in.



If they are popping their heads around the doors of folk clubs and not seeing an opening for them, then they will go elsewhere.

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: treewind
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:29 PM

Breezy, there used to be a club in Manchester which some of its participants nicknamed the "singing songs and talking bollocks club".
For some reason, I am suddenly reminded of it...

The people now in their 50's in folk clubs now are the identical people who were going to folk clubs 30 years ago, who were then in their 20's. We could all hack it then, we were mature enough (or were we?), it was a young person's scene. Maybe we identified with it too strongly - it was 'our scene' and we didn't notice we were getting older and insular and intolerant of younger newcomers.

As for anonymous guest before, it's no use writing off folk clubs and illustrating your view with a session as an example. Most clubs (of the more organised sort, not a bar room session) try hard to welcome newcomers - if they fail to do that the club shrinks to death.

It seem to me that successful clubs nowadays typically run monthly and are in large rooms that are generally community friendly - village halls, social clubs etc. The ones in grubby little pub back rooms are the ones that are struggling, and especially if they run every week. There are exceptions, of course.

I suspect there are more pub sessions of all sorts than there used to be, and at the other end of the spectrum there are folk concerts in Art Centres and similar venues. I've also noticed that some of the larger scale club organisers also run less formal sessions in parallel, which complement the more performance oriented club and give the less experienced an easier start at performing for the first time.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: breezy
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:44 PM

Folk clubs provide an opportunity to hear songs without distractions and the performer to ply the art.



Its not a young persons scene, no need to pamper to them they must come on our terms thats the tradition.

The songs and recordings are there and as such are immortal.

Its a far more mature environment than most young people can hack

I agree we all need to start somewhere but some people start too early too soon and very unready.

I provde 3 clubs, each one different

1 for the top flight performer and good resident

2 for the good resident to be a performer with room for floor singers who are ready but I cant commit to cater for more than 2 of these an


3 singaround session night for all, alternating an experienced with a rookie


I have to get people in so I sing in the street to meet like minded individuals and draw attention to the venues and me

Did 5 hours today a spoke to 20 interested peolple a disrtibuted leaflets and fliers.
Now if they come I dont want to lose them to inadequate performers or a dull venue.
Come to my club and judge for your self.

Fridays at The Duke af Marlboro the Premiership

sundays at the British Legion the nationwide

1st Sat month singa round at the legion for all

Good luck

Subject: RE: The role of folk clubs today
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:52 AM

It's to do with the inner circle, most Folk Cubs have inner circles and how ever much they say "all welcome" other people from outside there immediate circle are not made to feel at home. I have witnessed it time and time again, last week I was in a pub where a session was happening, I heard someone start to play a beautiful piece on the violin and another person complained that it was "their turn", there are no rules written down that state you must go round in a circle. You ask "what is the role of folk clubs today" in my view it is to promote music to ALL which includes giving everyone a chance, unfortunately this does not happen. You ask "will there still be folk clubs in the future" I certainly hope so BUT people have to change there approach and allow entry for people to develop. There will be many people who don't agree with me, but they need to take a step back, be honest, and look at themselves.

Subject: The role of folk clubs today
From: GUEST,Jane
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:22 AM

Hi, I regularly go to two folk clubs in my area and have noticed that I'm usually one of the youngest people there (and I'm not that young, being nearly 40!). I was wondering why younger people don't go (at least not to the ones in my area). Also, what is the role of folk clubs today? Will there still be folk clubs in the future?