BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?

Subject: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:53 AM

The majority of registered Democrats never got the chance to choose the nominee. The party royalty has chosen it's king, another empty suit. The grassroots activism begun with Dean, is now being silenced in the party and among the punditry. Dean's name has barely been mentioned in any news reports this week.

So, it is a timely question. The grassroots progressives have been locked out of the party by the elite interests AGAIN.

So what will the progressive wing of the party do? Will the Deaniacs work for the Kerry ticket? Will they vote for Nader? Or will they stay home and not vote once again, because the Democratic party continues to ignore and belittle their issues and their legitimate needs as citizens and a large constituency in the Democratic party?

Ever since the Reagan victory of 1980, the Democrats have abandoned their strongest constituencies. Union members numbers have been dwindling for decades, and since 1980, unions can no longer be counted upon to deliver their members as a solid voting block. And the union members of bygone eras were some of the most politically and socially conservative members of the Democratic party anyway, which caused the party to lose the support of many progressives alienated by the Republican wing of the Democratic party.

So now, with a supposedly "centrist" candidate who voted with Bush and the Republicans on every major piece of legislation since 2000 (ie, the Patriot Act, war on Iraq, No Child Left Behind, Medicare, the Bush tax cuts, etc) it is clearly apparent the Democratic Leadership Council has annointed another Republicrat for the nominee.

And not just any Republicrat, but a Republicrat they don't even need to develop a new media strategy to defeat, as they can dust off the one used by Bush I to defeat "Massachusetts Liberal" Dukakis.

It is mind numbing, to say the least, to believe one's eyes as we watch the Democratic party make the same stupid mistakes AGAIN, that resulted in them being defeated in 1988 and 2000, but there you have it.

So, what do people think will happen now that Kerry will begin his move to the right to capture the sacred "NASCAR dads" and independent "centrist" voters?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 09:19 AM

Firget the NASCAR dads. Thay aren't worth the expense in dollars and time to try to woo away from Stroker Ace, Jr.

I'm going to aassume that the Democratic base will vote for Kerry. The blocks that Kerry will have to get on board will be Hispanics, single women, and young folks. Too bad that John Edwards doesn't speak Spainish or he'd be a shoe-in...

As fir this ol' Greenie. I'm still up in the air as to weather or not I'll actually work for Kerry because I find little in his voting record that resembles anything progressive *but* I'll definately vote for him and should he win, go back to needling the Dems.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 09:32 AM

There seems to be a lot of "Anybody But Bush" sentiment out there. Even among some of the Republicans.

Kerry's going to be labeled a Liberal, which he isn't, by the Republicans, partly in an attempt to bring disaffected Republicans back into the fold.

Wouldn't a Kerry-Edwards ticket, with Wesley Clark as Sec. of Defense, be interesting?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM

Good one, guest! An veritable screem! If inspiring doubt was a virtue... Snap out of it. The only way to get there from here, is one step at a time. If you want to be beamed up, get a star trek video.

It's 2004, Bush is president, Many civil liberties are but a faint memory, the courts are stuffed with partiality, the economy has been gutted, and is on the opperating table, earth IS in the ballance. The media has been bought off, and most Americans haven't realized that it is their own individual 'free thinking' that has been disqualified... and we have to stop the pendulum

What is, is.

The staus quo is our point of departure. Let's get out of here...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 11:41 AM

Voting for Kerry isn't going to change the courts, nor the Patriot Act legislation, or overturn the Bush tax cuts, or repeal the Medicare bill or the No Child Left Behind act.

Anyone who believes that ousting Bush/electing Kerry will result in these things being overturned is sadly and dangerously naive or downright disingenuous. A vote for Kerry is a vote for the status quo. President Kerry is a desirable alternative, only because the contractors in Iraq MIGHT change, or that less regressive judicial nominees MIGHT be approved by a Republican controlled Congress IF they are even nominated.

Those aren't scare tactics or attempts to sow doubt--those are facts, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:42 PM

Well, GUEST, I'm about half in agreement with you but I think one good thing could come out of a new face and that is the US's relationships with its allies which Bush as so badly bungled. They might be a little warmer and receptive to a new face and, God knows, if the US doesn't get back to having real converstaions with the international community like real soon, it's gonna find itself a more isolated and mistrusted.

As for particulat policies, I believe that Kerry will attempt to roll back the tax cuts and if he uses the White House as a bully pulpit, could very well push a Republican led Congress to begrudingly go along, much the way Bush painted the Dems into a corner with his tax cuts...

As for anything else to speak of, Kerry isn't too much af an alternative voice...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Janie
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM

Hell yes, I'll vote for him. As the bumper stick says "Any other Whore in 2004"

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:44 PM

Any other Whore in 2004

I like that - - summarizes my inclination quite well - -

Think I'll write my lovely bride's name in again - only person I'd trust up there -

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:47 PM

There's always Nader of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:50 PM

DougR, knock it off. No-one is going to vote for Nader.

Your murderous, mendacious, evasive autocrat is going to be facing a fairly unified wave of discontent in November.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Frankham
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

I don't support or agree with much that has been said about
Kerry. I worked on his campaign. I got to hear him up close,
not through Republican sound-bites or disgruntled Dean supporters.

I'll say this. Kerry can beat Bush if he doesn't get sabotaged
by negative sour grapes from the opposition to Bush.

A vote for Nader or a write-in by Democrats will mean a vote
for Bush.

I don't agree with everything Kerry says but he's not the simplistic
"establishment" figure that some here are trying to make him
out to be. Following this "party line" will ensure Bush's victory.
I believe he is thoughtful, not quick to act impulsively, speaks
without "talking down" to people like Gore, absolutely sincere
in his convictions and the fact that he's not quite the smooth
campaigner that others are is a point in his favor. He's staying with the issues.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 02:06 PM

What are you suggesting, GUEST? That we give up and vote for Bush? No, thank you, I don't think so.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 02:46 PM

Look, I'm voting for Kerry. But who we vote for isn't the point, because a vote doesn't constitute support from the grassroots.

The question is whether people will vote for Kerry in the "any whore in 2004" logic, or whether the progressive grassroots will decide to sit out yet another election instead of voting AGAIN for a Democratic candidate that ignores their needs as citizens.

This race won't be decided by who votes for whom, it will be decided by whether the Democratic grassroots base will vote at all.

As a former Democrat and current independent voter, I am leaning towards not voting for the first time in 30 years. I voted for Nader in 2000, and in 1988, 1992, and 1996 I didn't vote in the presidential race. The Democrats haven't been interested in promoting the agenda that is my agenda--fixing Social Security for the boomer generation that will be retiring in a couple more years, universal health care, increases in the minimum wage, support for mass transit, increasing wages for workers, like child care workers, nursing home employees, etc. who are now required to have more and more education to do their jobs, without any corresponding increase in wages and benefits, affordable housing initiatives.

Those are all issues that neither party is addressing on the domestic front.

On foreign policy, neither party has done anything on the issues that matter to me, including reform of the weapons industry, working to prevent nuclear proliferation, seriously addressing the need for a legitimate Palestinian state, working on the Kyoto protocols, approving treaties like the landmine treaty, joining the world court, etc--the list is really to long to go into here.

So, since neither party can be bothered addressing the issues that are most important to me, there is no reason for me to support either party, now is there? One is as bad as the other, and continuing to vote for the Democratic party only perpetuates the problems.

The time has come in the US to overthrow the Democratic party, or at the very least, split off a progressive party that will address the issues, needs, and concerns of low and middle income progressives who believe the political system does nothing for them--the people who routinely don't vote.

Kerry's voting record is out there, and he voted mostly with the Republican majority in Congress since 2000. He voted that way because he had presidential ambitions, and wanted to hang onto his senate seat if he didn't make the presidential run.

There is only one senator who is deserving of my vote as a progressive, and that is Russ Feingold, the only US senator to vote against the Patriot Act. John Kerry should have voted against it, Paul Wellstone should have voted against it, Tom Harkin should have voted against it, John Edwards should have voted against it, but none of them did. They didn't vote for it because they all wanted to protect their political asses in the seats of Congress. The Patriot Act was bad, bad legislation pure and simple, but only one US senator had the guts to vote the right way on it.

If we can't count on the so-called "liberal" Democrats to vote against the Patriot Act, then why continue to engage in the charade? They aren't voting their consciences, they aren't voting with integrity on these sorts of controversial issues. They are voting to protect their jobs.

Outsource Congress, and outsource the presidential campaign, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 02:59 PM

GUEST, I think grassroots progressives are pretty hip to how dangerous Bush is and will rally around anyone--SpongeBob SquarePants, if need be--who can get Bush out of there. It's called "damage control." But once Bush is out, you can't just sit on your butt and whine if the new Democratic president is not different enough to suit you. You have to stay politically active. If you're really interested in changing things, the time to get really active is between elections.

Remember, there are going to be Senators and Representatives up for election also. You have a lot better chance of getting their ears than you do the President's.

If you aren't politically active, and if you don't even vote, you don't have much basis to bitch. You're part of the problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:10 PM

Guest... I think you are trying to fracture the party.

It's Kerry. Get on, or get out of the way. The only way we can look ourselves in the eyes, is to get rid of Bush. Once he's history, It will take years, if not generations... to repair the damage.

Then we can talk about ideals... ok?
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:17 PM

As a conservative, it is my opinion that most democrats are supporting Kerry no because they like John Kerry, but because they want anyone other than Bush. I don't think that is a very ringing endorsement or bode well in November.    We know that Kerry is against anything Bush ever did or said.   The question is "what is Kerry for"?   He has yet to articulate any real message or vision.   What are his policies going to be- all we get are sound bites so far.

So all you Kerry supporters out there- answer me this question.   In 1991 he voted against the War in the Gulf even though Iraq had invaded Kuwait and there were proven rape rooms and mass murders.   After the war he than said that he supported and approved of what we did.   Last year he voted for the 2nd war in the gulf even though there were only suspicions of WMD's, and now says he was against the war.    So why does he support wars he voted against, and is against wars he voted for?   Is a puzzlement!

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:41 PM

Puzzles are my specialty. Kerry is/was a Senator. A Senator from a well informed and involved state, politically speaking... Bush was a governor of the 'most conservative' state... In the position Kerry was/is in, he is particularly beholden to the changing tide of public opinion (which looses direction in times of illogical and undemocratic leadership), and is sworn to reflect it, or be voted out. Bush's 'top down' management as governor of Texas, preferable to conservatives and the uninformed alike... is more acceptable to the electorate of 'the most conservative state' and has molded GWB's profoundly undemocratic approach to leadership.

Kerry speaks to the ever changing concerns of the American people... and Bush speaks to the neverending domination of corporate greed over the needs (and the rights) of the struggling American citizens...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 04:30 PM

There's an old saying, "Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them". The person who is in the best position to make sure Bush doesn't get elected is Bush, and he's doing very well at bringing about that happy outcome, from what I've read and seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 04:54 PM

Don't be too sure McGrath. You may only be reading or listening to media that support your point of view. I think it will be a hard won election but think Bush will be re-elected. Why? There are more voters who believe as I do than voters who believe as you do.

Amos: I wouldn't kiss Nader off so quickly. He still has a lot of supporters, and from what I gather, the Democrats settled on Kerry because they thought he was the best of the bunch running, and had the best chance (in their opinion) to beat Bush. No one yet has convinced me that they are supporting Kerry because they feel he has even been a good senator.

If they had truly wanted to field a candidate that probably would have given Bush a run for his money,though, they would have insisted that Hillary run.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:03 PM

DougR... May I remind you... More people voted for Gore, when GWB's hopes were very high... Now he's made a lot of enemies, made a financial mess, started wars without any experience, and generally displayed strategic incompetence... ie. played dumb, while his dad's connections in the antiquated military industrial complex 'go for broke' before they are outmoded by true humanitarian progress...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 07:04 PM

The Democratic party has been saying "anybody but Reagan/Bush/Bush for over 20 years now. It ain't getting us anywhere, except for more Republican with every election.

Anybody want to know about the supposedly most Democratic and progressive states in the union, Massachusetts and Minnesota, the bastions of the Democratic party?

Both now have Republican governors, and Minnesota elected a Republican senator too in 2002.

So just how is that voting for a losing Republicrat election after election is getting us to the promised land? Hell, it isn't even getting rid of the Republicans, and keeps electing more and more right wing conservative Democrats.

That ain't progress, no matter how you measure it.

Frankly, I don't see how voting against both Democrat and Republican, or not voting at all, is any different than voting for one or the other because nothing changes after the inaugurations anyway. Just the same old shit.

I'm more optimistic about the shareholder revolt at Disney changing the status quo for the better than I am the presidential elections, which don't change a fucking thing or makes them worse.

Not all of us considered Clinton an improvement over Bush I, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 07:06 PM

Ye Gods ! will you Americans never learn !

A fractioned party will NEVER win.

European and US of A histrory is littered with the corpses of shattered ideals. Killed by internal squables of left wing personality conflicts, and the inability to unite around a common cause.

Unite and Fight. Bobert, this means theee as well !!!!!!

Squables on the left meant that we in the UK had to suffer 19 years of Conservative Government.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM

Larry K,

I have not always been Kerry's biggest supporter, as Frankham and others will tell you. But I think your statement that "all we know is that he's against Bush" says more about your own lack of curiosity than about Kerry. Kerry has made many speeches and statements, and has a website full of position papers that will tell you what he is for.

The US media has become a real obstacle to Democracy. They are not interested in informing us about what different candidates think, they're interested in saying "Dean is too angry, and Edwards is too young and naive, and Kerry is too stiff but he may be electable anyway." So we often have to find out what a candidate is for by using our own initiative.

One thing I can tell by the fact that I've met you here: you have internet acces. Go forth and inquire!

I for one will be voting for Kerry in November.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 07:53 PM

Amos - I will vote for Nader again this time, and write his name in if he does not get on my ballot in New Jersey, only because that is a better alternative than leaving the top line on the ballot blank and making a choice in the local contests only.
I will not agitate for him this time around, since all that seems to do is cheese off fellow 'Catters!
But at least I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I voted for somebody who I really would prefer to send to Washington, rather than holding my nose and flipping a coin between Bush or his fraternity brother.
All elections have winners and loosers. This time, as usual, the loosers will be us.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:05 PM

And here is that Kerry website - John Kerry

Just to be fair, here's the Resident's one as well - Bush/Cheney

Why people rely on truncated and distorted media coverage when they can elongated and distorted stuff from the candidates direct is a bit of a puzzle.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:55 PM

Democrats will vote for Kerry because they want Bush out of the White House. Voting for Kerry will unite the party and also, hopefully, bring more Democrats into other offices - the coat tail effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:30 PM

Gareth--Democrats love split ups, that's what unites them.

Our above Guest seems to think that Democrats hve no choice now that that majority of the delegates are spoken for. I'll remind Guest that it would be the sam for the Republicans as well if we didn't have a Republican sitting president. What I would have liked to have seen would be a serious Republican challenge to Bush in the primaries.

Will the grassroots join in? I am and I certainly welcome any that can come out and work. But, mark my word, two hard working Democrats are worth more that a dozen tepid ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 08:36 AM

So, Guest, the democrat party is no longer doing what you want done. Ok, is the Bush mafia doing it? Stay home, that will fix them! But dont piss and moan when that lying pandering phony gets elected(for the first time) I have no patience with those who complain and dont vote.

The party "royalty" defeated Dean? rubbish! he shot himself in the foot too many times. Dean defeated Dean. Angry and arrogant does not fly too well in this country. In the beginning, I supported Dean, I sent him money, but after that outrageous performance after Iowa, I dropped him like a used condom, and it was my choice, not the party royalty. (Whoever they are)

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM

kendall, apparently you haven't seen the film footage of Dean after the Iowa caucus--the so called "Scream" speech.

The news media routinely cuts out the sound of the crowd on video feeds, so the person on the microphone can be heard. ABC News, a week after the Iowa caucus, actually came clean about it, and broadcast the speech without the sound of the crowd removed. Dean was completely inaudible, due to crowd noise. You couldn't hear him at all.

Dean wasn't angry at all in that speech, but he was fired up and so was the crowd cheering him on. He was yelling to be heard in the room, where the sound of the cheering crowd was deafening. But by cutting out the sound, and making Dean appear as if he was going off the deep end, the media effectively nailed the coffin shut for Dean.

Nader is now running at 6% in the polls, with Bush and Kerry in a statistical tie at 45%. It seems that no matter how the Democrats rant about third party spoilers, independent and disgruntled voters will only hear it as so much whining because they aren't getting their way--a temper tantrum if you will.

I'm prepared for four more years of Bush, if that is what it takes to get the Democratic party to recognize it's progressive and grassroots constituencies, and act like an opposition party to the Republicans.

I will vote for the candidate that best represents my interests in the upcoming election. If Nader is that candidate, which looks quite likely from these months out, then I will vote for Nader, even if that means Bush wins. I will vote for Nader with a clear conscience, knowing that if Bush wins, Nader was no spoiler, but the supposedly "most electable" Democratic nominee, in fact wasn't electable at all. That isn't Nader's fault, it is the fault of people whose voting pattern for decades has been to settle for the lesser of two evils. You get what you vote for, when you vote for "anybody but the other guy".

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:39 AM

Boo hiss, mark your miss
Nader's but a ploy
Wake up, tip your cup
Kerry we'll enjoy

Four years, fearful cheers
Bush's hollow head
Bankrupt, terror sup't
Imports unhealthy dread

A kerry in hand is eschewing the bush

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM

Would people who vote for Nader (if he hasn't pulled out at a strayegic moment, which is my prediction) people who woudl otherwise have voted for Kerry? Or are they people who would otherwise have sat on their hands and abstained or spoiled their vote, not seeing anytone they feel like voting for? The latter seems much more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

Horrors! McGrath said something I agree with, and so did Kendall!

I think the majority of Nader voters would not have voted had Nader not announced he would run for President (McGrath), and Kendall is correct when he states that Dean sunk himself.

I agree with GUEST also regarding the infamous Dean speech after the Iowa Caucus. I didn't feel he was angry, just charged up.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 01:24 PM

This is ghastly! I find I'm agreeing with Doug!

Well, except on the matter of Nader. I know several people who voted for Nader in the last election who would have voted for Gore if Nader hadn't been there. Not just my conjecture. They said so.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 01:34 PM

For an anti war activist, our GUEST sure doesn't act with any kind of conviction. Let's get this right. You would rather have four more years of the man who took us to war, than John Kerry and the Democrats so you can make some silly statement. Does pragmatism enter into your ivory tower thinking at all? You are willing to send another several millions of our industrial jobs offshore rather to make a statement about principal? This is why folks that sit and pontificate and awe us with their intellectual prowess, instead of getting out and seeing the faces, being in the homes, and experiencing the hopelessness, piss me off. This isn't about your view of how it should be. And it isn't a game. There are real consequences in our actions.

You are right about one thing, though. The Democratic Party needs real change. But real change comes from within. Dr. Dean showed you how to do it. He showed the Party that they don't need corporate interests to raise the dollars needed to win. He planted a seed that will sprout and return the Party, eventually, to its roots. He has my undying gratitude for that. It won't come as a flash of lightning, but rather it will take root and sprout. Real, meaningful change takes time,and it takes working from within. All your complaining and pontificating will change nothing. And voting for Nader won't do anything to effect the change you want. But then ...... what would you have to rave on about? It is apparent that you vote every time, but you clearly want to waste it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM

That was last time, Don.

An option for people to vote "none of the above" would make a lot of sense in all elections. With a requirement that, if that came in first, they'd have to run the election again, but with a different bunch of candidates.

I guarantee that would cause a significant rise in the number of people who went to vote. And after all, those politicians are always saying how much they want that to happen. Like hell they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:03 PM

Kevin, it's comments like "those politicians" that seem to defy your normal intellectual approach to these things. It is such a over generalization, that it leads to the types of attitudes we see from our GUEST. I know many politicians that are driven by an ethic, a code. We may not see eye to eye on certain issues, but I know them to be honorable and trying to do the best within the system to effect positive societal change. There are dirtbags, and self serving jerks too. But the system roots them out eventually. I am concerned lately with what I see as a loss of confidence in the ability to make change. I know that we still can, if we are ready to jump back in and work with honorable intent. It still comes down to one person, one vote. When that is being abused, we need to act. I just don't see Don Quixote approaches as the way to do it. I thought Dean showed the way. I may not have liked him as a candidate to beat Bush, but that man has my greatest admiration for shaking things up, and breaking the inertia. I pray that he stays with the process and remains a force for positive, internal change. I believe he represents the best chance the Party has, if he remains a player.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:17 PM

McGrath,

As you may know, things are not standardized in US elections. The ballot I see in Philadelphia looks nothing like the ones in Maine or South Carolina. So I don't know for sure that I'm speaking for everyone. But MY ballots always HAVE included a "none of the above" or "no vote" option; this is so you can vote in some races but abstain in others while using the same ballot. Makes sense to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:19 PM

Social change is never achieved through electoral politics, so to expect it to occur by presidential voting seems a bit silly.

I voted for Nader in 2000. Had I not voted for Nader, I absolutely would not have voted for Gore. I would have left the presidential part of the ballot blank, as I had done for the previous three elections. My entire inner city neighborhood was full of Nader lawn signs, I'm rooted deeply in this community both socially and politically, and I can tell you that very few of the hundreds of households with Nader lawn signs would have supported Gore in the absence of Nader as a candidate.

Finally, I don't believe Nader only took votes away from the Democrats, any more than I believe that the Greens or Socialists only take votes from the Democrats. Third party voting and voters who have declared themselves independent of any party, are a complex voting bloc. For instance, I know two Libertarian Party members who voted for Nader in 2000. I also know several Republicans who voted Nader and a good handful of Republicans who voted for Gore.

The majority of voters in some states like South Dakota and Arkansas are neither Democrat or Republican, but independent.

Democrats are looking for someone other than themselves to blame for their electoral failures of the past 20 or so years. Guess what? Nader isn't the reason the Democrats keep losing elections everywhere in the country. Democrats are the reason Democrats keep losing elections everywhere in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

Mick... you are especially lucid today! Thanks!

Voting 'All of the above' would be even more interesting!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM

Fair enough, Mick. But what I have in mind, and what "those" meant there, are the ones who make a show of trying to raise the proportion of people voting, by gimmicks such as polling booths in supermarkets, or unreliable novelties such as electronic voting machines and extensive postal voting - but who rigidly refuse to do anything about what seem to me the real reasons why people turn away from voting.

By that I mean, dodgy voting systems that mean that, for most people, they know that their vote can't make any difference at all, and also that minority positions can't get a look in; and especially in England, centralisation of power so that no matter how people vote locally, the central government make the decisions.

Attitudes summed up in such sayings as "no matter who you vote for, the government always gets in" and "of voting could really change things, they'd abolish it".

All of which said, I'm hoping Americans resist the very reasonable scepticism they must feel, and vote for whoever can get rid of Bush, which looks like Kerry. And I think most people around the world would share that hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:45 PM

Gothcha, Kevin. And I agree with you.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:39 PM

we all hope that Bush will go but .....

If he doesn't, perhaps it will be the beginning of a grassroots revolution. I don't see how the U.S. will be able to survive (domestically) another four years of the status quo. Maybe, for any real change to happen, it will take another 4 years to push the public into realizing that the threat is internal and not external. Maybe its a crisis that is necessary for real change.

Voting for Kerry is not likely to change much at all.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Frankham
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:50 PM

Kerry definitely has the African-American vote. They will support him. Dean didn't seem to reach much into that community.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:57 PM

I'm not sure what "grassroots Democrat" or "progressive" means, but I have the impression that GUEST (and maybe others) mean people who are generally to the left of the New Deal when they use those terms. But then, I really don't know what Republicans and others on the right mean when they use the word "liberal" as a curse either.

I do know a lot of life-long registered Democrats, and individuals who are not party members but who usually vote that way who are pretty middle of the road. These are people who don't much care if individuals own guns (except maybe assault rifles and machine guns), but who also don't see any reason not to register them; people who don't care what somebody else does in the company of another consenting adult, of either sex, in private, and doesn't understand why they can't be married if they want; people who see a reason for laws and think they should be obeyed; and so on. My opinion is that most people are in the center.

I like Kerry, and will support him, because I see him as being in the center. Yes, he has changed his position on issues over time, and I'd say that almost everyone else has done so as well. Granted that there are some individuals who made up their minds on everything when they were eighteen and haven't had a new thought in forty years, but I've never met one of them who was worth the powder to blow them to hell.

GUEST 2:19 PM says that he/she supported Nader last time, and that a vote for Nader in 2000 wouldn't necessarily have been a vote for Gore in Nader's absence. Perhaps the same is still true, but one set of polls I saw had Kerry 4 percentage points ahead of Bush the day before Nader declared, and the two tied with 6 percent for Nader the following day. Like Nader or not (and I personally don't), all indications are that a vote for Nader is a potential vote against Bush that is thrown away.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:09 PM

To say that a vote is "thrown away" enrages me. Absolutely enrages me.

How dare anyone tell another citizen who makes time and effort to vote, that their vote is worthless, because they have voted for a candidate they don't like!

God, the arrogance of some you Democrats is just appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:25 PM

To bring the discussion back to the original question, here is a brief excerpt of the article that got me thinking along these lines, from Salon.com:

Will Deaniacs pull a Nader on the Democratic Party?
Some of the insurgent's supporters say they're going to take their idealism and go home --- but most of them will probably get over their bitterness and support the nominee.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
By Michelle Goldberg

Feb. 4, 2004 |

On Jan. 30, three days after Howard Dean came in a disappointing second in the New Hampshire Democratic primary, posters on the late-night open thread on the Dean for America blog excoriated John Kerry. "At first, I was in the ABB [Anybody But Bush] category, but I refuse to be cowtowed [sic] by the corporate-controlled media and vote for a gutless democrat who rolled over and played dead for George Bush or one who helped draft the Patriot Act," wrote Sydney Platt, a 42-year-old from Houston. Another poster castigated her, but many more supported her sentiment. One wrote, "I have decided that perhaps America must lose everything to value something. That may be what it takes to actually get our country back if Dean goes down."

If this sounds familiar, it's because some of the rhetoric coming out of the most disillusioned quarters of the Dean camp recalls that of the Ralph Nader campaign. Among parts of the Dean movement these days, there's much railing at the corporate-dominated Democratic Party, plenty talk of rejecting the "lesser of two evils" approach to politics and abundant slandering of front-runner John Kerry as "Bush-lite." So as it grows increasingly likely that Dean won't be the Democratic nominee in 2004 -- and that Kerry will be -- some are wondering, and worrying, whether all the devoted legions of activists that Dean brought into the Democratic fold will stay in the party, spoil the race or just stay home. If Dean goes down, will one of the greatest grass-roots movements in Democratic history go with him -- a rerun of the Nader fiasco four years ago? Or will Dean supporters decide that beating Bush is more important than remaining true to their man and their principles and support the Democratic nominee, whoever he is?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:50 PM

GUEST 5:09 PM: the person I voted for in 1980 received 6.7% of the popular vote. Perhaps, depending on how the electoral college swang, Reagan wouldn't have won if 5.7 million votes hadn't been spent on a forlorn hope. Be enraged if you want, but please don't call me a Democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

Agreed artbrooks, I shan't call you a Democrat. But I'm still calling you out on the appalling arrogance of suggesting that someone who shows up on voting day and casts a vote, regardless of who it is for, is "throwing their vote away".

If you feel so strongly that this is the way it works, why not just dispense with the election sham altogether, and install a dictator?

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM

Democrats insisting that progressives enter the Democratic Party is a co-opting strategy as old as the Populist/Democratic fusion campaign for William Jennings Bryan that killed 19th century populism.

The overwhelming majority of Democrats in Congress voted for Bush's tax cuts, his military build-up, his assaults on civil liberties, and his regulatory and tax favors to corporate interests. But now, according to the "Anybody But Bush" Democrats, we should rely on these same Democrats to provide the resistance!

Cynthia McKinney, a Democratic Congresswoman who did resist the Republican Right agenda, is a good example of what the Democrats do to their progressives these days. When the right (including the Georgia's Democratic Senator Zell Miller and the Democratic Leadership Council) targeted her for defeat, she was abandoned by the state and national Democrats, from Andrew Young and Maynard Jackson to Terry McAulliffe and Bill Clinton.

We can't fight the far right by supporting the moderate right. The left did that in Germany in the 1930 elections and the moderate right they helped to elect soon handed power over to Hitler.

The Democratic Party has been the graveyard of every progressive insurgency since the populists died there in 1896. Reforming the Democrats has been the dominant strategy of liberals, progressives, and even most radicals since 1936. Inside the Democratic Party, the left lost its independent voice. Its analyses and policy proposals disappeared from public debate. The left ended up doing the trench work for candidates who were bankrolled by and indentured to the dominant corporate wing of the Party.

Wake up people! If you don't see that the Democrats are just as culpable as the Republicans for driving the nation to the right, then you aren't paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Will Dem grassroots support Kerry?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 07:03 PM

The question is -

Do you want GWB Jnr Out, or waste divided efforts on 57 (Pun) brands of pureism !

Kerry - perhaps not the idealist's choice, but when you think of the alternative !!!!!!!!!!!!

Gareth