BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?

Subject: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

I would really appreciate some opinions on this topic -- I am embroiled in a really nasty fight on another forum. Here's the situation:

Americans on the other forum accuse Canada of having a free defense ride, because we don't have a very large military. They claim that the US military would protect Canada in the event of attack, and that therefore Canada is a parasite.

My argument(s) are as follows: 1) Canada is a peaceful country without any enemies, so that we don't need a large military; our chance of being attacked is fairly slim. 2) Canadian troops are famous all over the world for being peacekeepers, going in and cleaning up messes caused by wars involving other countries. 3) Given point 1 above, any major risks to Canada would be based on the fact that we are allies with the US, a country with a lot of enemies. 4) When it is/was necessary, as in the two World Wars, Canada not only participated, but fought above its weight, with terrible losses.

Opinions, please? Thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:21 PM

I left out the fact that one risk to Canada is that it is next door to the US, 95% of our people live along the border, and any attack on the US would do damage here as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM

Do you all have alot of oil resources up there? Because that could be another risk to Canada....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:36 PM

With a grossly over-budgeted military ndustrial profit-oriented complex which dwarves the second largest military and the combined militaries of the next X countries, the notion of starting an argument on "hey chip in here you Canadians" is arguing for no purpose. Just noise with no good end to the discussion.

Second point, in the two World Wars, the ancestors of today's Canadians and the ancestors of today's Americans participated. That's not us, nor likely to be any of the people you're arguing with. I'd say give it a pass and let them have a win on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:47 PM

Normally I would agree with you, Heric, but there's another tale to be told here. My husband and I were in Hawaii recently, and on the bus to the airport, the driver asked where we were all from. When we said Canada, an American passenger turned around and snarled that Canada gets (same phrase) a free ride from the US military. Obviously this idea is spreading, probably because we didn't participate in the war in Iraq, which our own intelligence found wasn't justified.

The oil thing...yeah, Amergin, I know. We all know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:48 PM

Canada's vulnerability stems directly from living next door to the target of pissed-off 'foreigners.' Those people got some balls asking for Canada to pay for the privilege.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM

The thing that is most dangerous to Canada is our supply of fresh water. Are we getting a free ride? We participate in wars with which we agree. We didn't agree about the present thing in Irag. What does it mean when someone says "free ride"? Canadian losses were terrible in WWI and WWII on a per capita basis. We were used frequently as shock troops. We have left lots of bllod on lots of soil. If our collective courage is being called into question, the people doing th calling don't know us very well. If we aren't dancing to someone else's tune, in the words of my dear departed mom, "Tough Shit!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:56 PM

I used to live in Honolulu. You get the biggest and pinkest of the BigPinkLads there!! Big Bright Pink Lasses too. (No offense BPL - these are a different breed!) With Giant melting ice cream cones dripping on their vacation clothes. Buffoons. Especially so if they can spout off like that when even the Bushites are scrambling about the false "intelligence." Let them go their way, I'd say. We're stuck with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:20 PM

I wish I had been on that bus, that prick would have gotten an earful from a history major!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:36 PM

pdc - Next time they say something of that ilk, invite them to join me and my band mates at the Remembrance Day ceremonies we play every year. Invite them to discuss it with some of the guys, former and current, from the 48th Regt., They can explain to the four guys our drummers were talking with after the parade was dismissed - one was wearing a St. George's Cross, two were wearing DSOs and one a Military Medal. Tell *them* that Canada does not pull its weight.

If yer wankers were to look at military & military spending per capita, they'd have a harder time saying stupid things like that. Unless of course, they are being fair and balanced.

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:57 PM

The Northamerican Aerospace Defense Command, a joint Canadian-US military organization, has been in existance for about the last 45 years. It has target location equipment (radar) and interdiction assets (fighter aircraft) from both nations, and was the primary line of defense during the cold war. According to the NORAD web site, they have assumed a new mission since September 11, 2001 of tracking possible terrorist threats.

In other words, tell them that Canada is and has been actively involved in the defense of the US, and to get stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:05 PM

Actually, what I said to the man on the bus in Honolulu was "bull-fucking-shit!" and a horrible silence fell. My husband told me later that you're supposed to leave the "g" off "fucking," lol. I'm proud to this day that I said it, because it's not my usual language.

(Maybe that's why the bus driver let us off first!)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM

Oh, yeah...also tell them about the Canadian troops on the ground in Afganistan and the Canadian Air Force supply flights into that country, and the Canadian civilian medical mission in Iraq.

And then tell them to get stuffed again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:25 PM

when US Ambassador Celucci chastized Canada for not supporting the US on IRaq, he said that the US would come to Canadas aid if it needed help, (although we were 3-4 years into both ww1 and 2 before the US joined)

essentially he said Canada would lose out economically on because of Chretiens decision - which we are already -
never mind the fact Canada has lost soldiers in Afghanistan, (We didnt get attacked in 911) the 30% lumber tarrif still stands (despite nafta rulings against it).

- the irony is the US went after Iraq, when the real terror exporters are Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan with their extreme Islamist schools.
And when AQ Khan the father of the Pakistani Nuclear bomb, openly admitted to sharing nuclear weapons plans - and a IAEA recently turned up a secret underground market for manufacturing nuke components, missiles etc and selling them to the highest bidder - between Libya, Pakistan, NKorea. ANd Musharraf immediately pardoned
Khan (meaning there can be no investigation) there was not a peep from the US state dept.

the threat from Iraq is laughable in comparison. Now theyre talking about Canada joining in the anti-missile shield, spending billions on an unproven technology, which will not prevent a bomb smuggled in on a fishing boat entering ny harbour, or a civilian transport plane. THeyd be better off spending the money on improving the gulf between the poorest nations and the west. But then BUsh famously told Senator Biden when he proposed spending 50,000 US$ on schools in Afghanistan,
'I dont do nuance'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:36 PM

I don't know whether this is the correct thread for this or not. If anyone has a better thread to post it on, feel free.

An article from Salon.com finally tells what is probably the truth about the US deciding to go into Iraq, the Office of Special Plans, the Pentagon, etc., written by a staff member who was there, and involved, and who is now retired.

A good 4-page article that should be widely circulated.

Intelligence and Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM

My argument(s) are as follows: 1) Canada is a peaceful country without any enemies, so that we don't need a large military; our chance of being attacked is fairly slim.

I'd say you don't have to argue any farther than that. I can't say Canada does everything right, but I think it's wonderful that Canadians do things differently - and the U.S. should learn from those differences. If the U.S. government would follow Canada's example and spend far less on warfare and far more on health care, that would be a wonderful thing.

-Joe Offer in California-

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,jc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM

We sent our troops to Afghanistan to assist the Yanks and they bombed
them and said they thought our boys were the enemy! They killed several of them and wounded others. So called friendly fire.
I wonder why we didn't want to go to Iraq!!

Canada was involved in the second world war long before Uncle Sam got into the fray and then only when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Were they getting a free ride then I wonder!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:54 PM

Oh good! Ammunition! Back to the fray.

(Thanks, Joe Offer -- that was a really nice comment.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:00 PM

Canada is such a nice country that we deserve a free ride as far as I'm concerned, but we ain't gettin' one. No sir.

And Brucie is right, the greatest danger to Canada is the fact that we have the largest reserves of fresh water in the world. The USA is very interested in that. If we were to deny them access to it, our independence would very soon be just a memory.

It is physically impossible for Canada to marshall the resources to militarily defend our whole enormous territory against any major attack from abroad. Therefore, what we must do is hope that no major attack is launched upon us, and keep our wits about us in regards to our relations with:

1. the USA

2. the USA

3. the USA

4. Russia (fairly unlikely)

5. China? (highly unlikely at the moment)

6. the Martians...?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:07 PM

To my Canadian Mudcat Friends,

Please calm down. You have obviously been in the presence of a certain species known as U.S.Americanus Assholus.

Those of us with a brain in our heads know the sacrifices that Canada has made in the wars. The idea that you are getting a "free ride" just because you border us is utter nonsense. You suffer from our industry. You suffer from our tourists. We share so much in common that this argument parallels me telling my brother that because I serve in the military and he doesn't that he is getting a free ride. Two different countries with different ideas about how things should be done. You are not our siamese twin and you owe us nothing!

To the last post: We were gearing up to fight after the last round of military cuts after WW1 (we never learn) and participating in the lend-lease program (more of a "we're giving you this, maybe we'll see money from it but we realy don't expect to) with the UK. We also were funding and equipping Chenault's Flying Tigers in China fighting the Japanese. It took Pearl Harbor to get the doves plucked and let us throw off the camouflage.

From a bumper sticker:
Ass, Gas, or Grass - No free rides!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:22 PM

Yeah, what CC is saying is important for us to remember. We have too many friends around the world to get nasty with any of them. I know that my dad fought along side Americans in Italy during WWII. Sweat's sweat and blood's blood. The Americans I know are fine people for the most part. I doubt their AH quota on a per capita basis is any more or less than our own. I don't want to offend my neighbours by rehashing history. I know that the Canuck troops who landed at Normandy took it in the teeth just like the Brits and the Yanks. We all died just the same. (My dad told me the Anzacs were good also, and their blood was just as red--he did mention that as a rule they were a bit crazy, but he didn't know whether that was because of their language or the heat.)

Those suggesting that Canada is getting a free ride might want to take note that presently Canada is involved in 12 (that's a dozen) peacekeeping operations. We do not play step-an-fetch-it for anyone, and that's that. They can think what they want of us, but the fact is we pull our weight, just as do other civilized governments around the world.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:29 PM

(It just occurred to me pdc that even though you should have dropped the "g," your husband was secretly proud that you didn't and didn't know to.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:55 PM

Maybe, Heric! He just thought it was extremely funny.

There have been some good posts on this thread, but I think I will not repeat them to the rightwingnut on the other forum who said Canada is getting a free ride. It would simply provoke another argument, and believe me, he knows how to drop the "g"s!

But I love what you all said -- thanks very much for the support, you terrific people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

Where do I sign up for my free ride. I could use something free. It's been a long expensive winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:46 PM

Don't worry about it, pdc. Someday when Canada annexes the US, it won't make any difference anyway.

Seriously, though, we are no different than anyone else. We have assholes that live here. Any Yank that doesn't understand what it means to have a neighbor like Canada needs to spend about a 1/2 hour with me. You have simply run into some of the cretinous amongst us. I have not heard any of this talk, and would certainly take the Canadian position. Canada has been a wonderful neighbor, and a wonderful ally. I wish that US government officials would adapt a more Canadian style on going to war. The Canadians, when they go to war, acquit themselves valiantly and with honor. I haven't looked up the per capita figures, but I would bet the equal or exceed any nation that went to WWI or WWII. But they just don't go flying off every time someone tries to push them to.

This is one Yank who does not believe Canada is getting a free ride. In fact, just having this stable ally on our Northern border provides security for the US that is worth a very great deal.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM

Mick, we have our share of --er -- goons and lowlifes here too. It's an international epidemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:29 PM

when canada helped a number of diplomat escape in Iran in 1980
we were heroes, how quickly it was forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:31 PM

Right, I'd forgotten that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:44 PM

I have a long tradition -

Whenever I am near the reseviors of North and Central Wales, (Water to the English) or the 7 Springs nr Gloucester ( Source of the Thames) I urinate. That way the Saxons are getting recycled Welsh Water.

If things develope as I suspect they will perhapos our Canadian friends might do something similar.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM

Right! Much along the same lines as a man is really stupid to beat the woman who prepares his food. Good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:57 PM

No man is a hero to his valet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:14 PM

Blame Canada - South Park Parents

Times have changed,
Our kids are getting worse
They won't obey their parents,
They just want to fart and curse

No!
Blame Canada!

With all their beady little eyes,
their flapping heads so full of lies
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
We need to form a full assault


He saw the darn cartoon, and now he's off to
join the klan!>

but now when I see him, he tells me to fuck myself>

Well, Blame Canada!

It seems that everything's gone wrong since
Canada came along
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!


Instead he burned up like a piggie on a barbecue>





Heck no!
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
With all their hockey hubaloo

Blame Canada!
Shame on Canada!

The smut we must stop
The trash we must smash
Laughter and fun
must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before someone thinks of blaming us!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: flattop
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:15 PM

One of Canada's newspapers had a frontpage story recently with a picture of a bus and one of Canada's military helicopters. The bus made the trip across the country faster than the helicopter. In fact, the helicopter was only half way across the country when the story was written, still having breakdowns. Hurrah for the busses,

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:23 PM

We just got new helicopters (blush). They were way, way, WAY overdue.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:30 PM

Well, I think we are really more in need of buses than helicopters, all things considered. I wouldn't want to try flying in a helicopter that was experincing breakdowns. Sounds like a quick trip to the hereafter.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:35 PM

Our government was absolutely shameful on the issue of replacing the old tired helicopters that our troops were using. They were holding them together with paper clips, glue and hope, while the government fiddled and diddled and played politics, risking lives in doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:43 PM

When my Dad died and his local Legion put a veteran's cross in the earth in front of the cenotaph in his honour for the occassion, I was reminded that he once said he was proud that I didn't have to serve as he did. He wasn't anxious for his children to step into the line of fire, he'd done that so that others wouldn't need to. I wonder if his father had felt the same after the previous world war. Anyway, history records the Canadian sacrifices, even as not all the world is educated about them.

It is sad that an American would think Canada gets a free ride. Is it an extension to the "if you're not with us you're against us" bullshit? Our contributions are well enough documented by previous posters, but as major partners in trade including war toys, we are hardly unsupportive.

Too bad ignorance gets so much press.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:57 AM

A free ride? A free ride to hell if you ask me. Why would Canada want to ride with the U.S.A.? Obviously, they don't or they would have been alongside in Iraq. Seems to me its the U.S. who wants the free ride. They seem to think they are entitled to most of the world's resources including Canada's water, wood, and electricity, natural gas and fish.

A free ride? Nothing free about being neighbors with the biggest bully on the block. We pay a bundle for their so-called security. The biggest fear Canadians have is being swallowed by U.S. greed and/or being collateral damage should someone decide to push them back.

I do not recall Canada asking the U.S. for protection. Seems to me its the U.S. always asking Canada for testing grounds, engineering expertise, and air space. In the past, we have obliged but this is changing. We have been good neighbors but we fight our own battles and we pick them carefully.

Canada owes the U.S. nothing. Thats just plain arrogance.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:25 AM

I have a long tradition -

Whenever I am near the reseviors of North and Central Wales, (Water to the English) or the 7 Springs nr Gloucester ( Source of the Thames) I urinate. That way the Saxons are getting recycled Welsh Water.

Gareth, when will people like you ever realise that this is the thinking that leads to 911 and what's just happened in Madrid. Saxon indeed! How far back in history do you want to go..apes?
So my knee jerk response to your insult is another insult, a jibe about our taxation subsidising your two million people, then you get angry and shout at me and then I hit you, and then you reach for a weapon and so do I, then we recruit followers, then we invade, then we fight then we kill...well done Gareth!
Water isn't Welsh it's a resource for humanity, as is compassion,understanding, tolerance and sharing...our only defences against tribalism, nationalism, religion and the other madnesses your attitude above personifies.
It's not a joking matter Gareth, it's life or death when it's taken to its logical conclusion.As far as I'm concerned you're welcome to whatever benefits belonging to our island society confers upon you, you can live amongst us,eat our crops, drive our roads, use our hospitals, our schools, marry our women, drink our water, but your piss will never put out the fire your bigotry can start. Can't you see that?
The question is what have I, an individual, an "innocent" to you, ever done to you personally that you should want me to drink your piss? Can you not see that by seeing me as a "saxon" and not as an individual human being, you're starting down the road to blowing up trains?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: el ted
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:31 AM

Thanks for Leonard Cohen and Nelly Furtado. Canada rocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:32 AM

Harvey - Have you had your sense of humour surgically amputated ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Ben Dover
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:37 AM

what about neil young and joni mitchell? canada is well hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Ben Dover
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:44 AM

Anybody else remember that great song from Not the nine o clock news called "failed in Wales" sung to the tune of "Men of Harlech"? Most excellent dude.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:45 AM

dianavan...well said.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

And don't forget Buffy Sainte-Marie, Ian and Sylvia, and Gordon Lightfoot. All Canadians. This country puts forth great singers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Ben Dover
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:06 AM

Clinton Hammond anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:07 AM

Now I am going to throw a little hitch in here. Just as the ignorant fools made comments about Canada, so you are making ignorant comments about the States. Sure we have our problems. Let those without sin cast the first stone. I don't mind pointing out ignorance among my fellow citizens, but when the rest of you start making blanket statements and over generalizations about the US that is just as bad. It reminds me a great deal of the Irish Americans that talk about "the Brits". As long as that type of polarizing shit is out there, we will continue to cannibalize ourselves.

The answer, IMO, to the question is no. And it is ignorant to say so. Almost as ignorant as Europeans casting all kinds of blanket statements about Yanks. There is plenty in this world to be upset about. Like GWB. But we are a diverse country, and if you take a look at the polls you will see at least as many folks that don't like what's going on with this administration. You have insulted them, and me.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:38 AM

Mick, I don't know if your last comment was directed at me or not. If so, I did not intend to insult any Americans. I like some Americans, don't like others, agree with some, disagree with others, etc. etc. I will confess that I loathe your present administration, which I think is damaging your country to a point from which it will be difficult to recover, and is doing a lot of damage to other parts of the world as well, some overt, some covert.

You are correct: it is not only bad, but ridiculous to make blanket statements about a country. This is where the difficulty arises -- many people seem to confuse the government of a country with the people of the country.

A few years ago I went to China. Some (not many) people I know have asked me how I could go to a Communist country. Guess what -- the government is communist; the people aren't. In fact, some of the ones I met are suffering under communism. The people don't represent their governments. In many cases, the governments don't represent the people either, and I believe that is what is going on in the US right now.

Fair enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:55 AM

Hell no, I didn't mean you, pdc. I think you have been very fair. There is just an air creeping into the discussion that seems to indicate that all is grand when it comes to making disparaging comments about the US. We have faults, and many of them. So do others. I just don't want a thread about whether Canada is getting a free ride to turn into another "let's take the piss out of the US".

Canada is as good a neighbor, and ally, as can be had. They have their problems. I could go on all day about the Canadian trash that they don't want to bury in their country, so they ship here. And you could fire back, as you have. The simple fact is, we are allies and good neighbors. No one that I associate with feels as has been implied, and I must assure you that given my special relationship with the Canadian folkies I would be in the fore of denouncing anyone who suggested these things in my presence. And I would hope those that know me would also denounce as untrue anyone from Canada who made blanket statements about Yanks. Herd thinking is the source of most conflict in my view. Right and wrong are not, or at least, should not be fluid concepts.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM

I agree with Mick. Pro-Canadian doesn't and shouldn't have to be anti-America. The Catters here are our friends fer God sake. Let's treat them like friends. When we have specific issues, let's be specific. I don't want to call all Americans bad names; it just ain't so. Enough already. This started because a few assholes someplace called Canada a free-loading, ride-on-the-back of the USA country. The appropriate Canadian response if "Fuck you, Dick or Susan, and the horse you rode in on." The appropriate response is NOT "All Americans are bad." ALL Americans didn't say that. A few did. Let's all ease up a bit.

Love and Peace,

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:14 PM

Harold: "Uncle Red, maybe we should call the Air Force!"
Red (looking at wrist watch): "It's past six o'clock. He's gone home."

Quando omni flunkus moritati

If some country wanted to invade Canada, considering its size, I don't think there are enough Canadians to raise a sufficient military force to defend the country. That's just the way it is. But since you don't generally go around kicking sand in people's faces, why would you need to?

But military force is not the only deterrent that Canada has. Because of its size and topography, not to mention the weather in much of the county during certain times of the year, can you imagine what a bitch Canada would be for some invading force to try to conquer and occupy? That, in itself, would give any potential invader second thoughts. On two occasions, Napoleon's invasion and Hitler's invasion, Russia let winter work for them. That may have something to do with the fact that nobody much seem too enthusiastic about invading the Scandinavian countries. The Swedes are used to it. If what my son tells me is true, people in and around Ottawa are used to it (actually, he said he'd never get used to it). I don't think Canada had much to worry about from the mighty desert-dwelling hordes of Saddam Hussein.

If some country posed an actual threat to Canada, I think the United States would already be deeply embroiled in such a conflict. It is therefore in the interest of the United States to be willing to keep Canada under its own defensive umbrella, and accept whatever military assistance Canada can provide in doing so. Canada has always been there in a pinch, and Canadians have always been stalwart fighters when push comes to shove. In a civilized and sane world, that fact that Canadians disagreed with Bush's policy of pre-emptive strikes is a mark in their favor. Theirs was a much more realistic (or truthful) assessment of what was going on. And since when do Canadians have to be mindless puppets of the United States?

What mighty threatening force is this that the United States has to defend Canada from? The Klingon Empire?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:18 PM

I know this is a folk page but ne of the greatest influences for me musically was RUSH! Just wish I could get the radio stations here to stop playing the same three Rush songs. Oh, and thanks for Bob and Doug McKenzie as well. I know that they stereotyped the worst Canada had to offer but they were good for a laugh which is better medicine than what your HMO will give you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM

Don Firth said, "What mighty threatening force is this that the United States has to defend Canada from? The Klingon Empire?"

The only country that some of us fear is the US, Don, and I don't know if that is paranoid or not. Given the increasing scarcity of resources (gas for the SUV?) and Canada's supplies of them, who knows?

As far as climate goes, modern warfare has, I think, made climate fairly irrelevant. If our cities were hit by bombs like the US used in Iraq (both times) we would be toast. 95% of Canadians live in a 150-mile strip along the US border, where the land is more habitable.

I don't think the geographically largest country in the world, with one of the smallest populations, has many options when it comes to defence. We would fight, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM

Whoa there, pdc. Are you suggesting that anyone in the US is contemplating invading or attacking Canada????? Or did I misunderstand the post?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:51 PM

No Mick, I'm not suggesting that at all. I will say that we get a lot of "joke" threats from rightwingers in the US who are angry that we didn't jump into the Iraq war. When Canada refused to join in, a lot of Canadians had problems in the US, but only from some people.

A former prime minister, Pierre Trudeau, once said that we were a mouse in bed with an elephant. That kind of situation creates a lot of paranoia for the mouse, especially when the elephant is prone to militarism. Many people here believe that the US went into Iraq in order to control the oil. Canada has a lot of oil, natural gas, water, and other resources that are running short.

I don't for a minute think that our alliance and friendship with the US could deteriorate to the stage that we became enemies. But some of the remarks I get from right-wing Americans (on another forum) are a little over the top.

One other thing, which is a little off the topic of this post: Canada's so-called "free ride" is an exaggeration for another reason. Any attacks on the US put us at immediate risk as well. Bombs don't know borders. If Seattle is attacked, what happens to Vancouver and Victoria? If Detroit is attacked, what happens to Windsor? We parallel each other right across both countries.

And one more thing (I'm at home with pneumonia, so have lots of time on my hands): I must confess I would be very, very happy to see Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Ashcroft, and the whole cabal out of office, so we (and the rest of the world, presumably) could feel comfortable again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: flattop
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:56 PM

As for Canada's contribution to world security, I'm surprised that no one mentioned the burden Canada bears, with its bears, just being a civilizing influence on Big Mick and the Americans.

And let's not forget Canada's satirical songwriters like Joe Hall, who, in Canada most multi-cultural cities, wrote a bus song to a reggae beat, The Third World. It goes something like this:

they're leaving Soatto (sp?)
they're coming to toronto
don't drive the bus off the cliff
please don't drive the bus off the cliff

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

Flattop, the Canadian singer/songwriters are among my most potent influences. I consider myself an adopted son and have great admiration for the Canadians. They have such a sense of place, both in their songs and when one speaks with them. I don't believe anyone out there that I have listened to touches me as much as the Canadian singers and the songs they write about the land and its history. My admiration rivals that of my love of the music of Ireland and Scotland. They have already tamed me, and I respect that land and the people I have met there. In many ways, I wish the States would pay a little more attention to the lifestyle of our northern neighbors. The only thing I am doing here is asking for a little restraint on the part of the US bashers. There is also much to admire about the Americans, both north and south of the US border.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

I personaly would like to invite our American friends to the Ontario Meeting at my humble abode and a possible chance to see the World famous Clinton Hammond (if the bugger shows up).

Please see the Possible Ontario Meeting Thread up in the non BS section!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

Sadly Big Mick, there is a constantly updated plan that the American government has been working on since the McKinley era. The old 54-40 or fight is not dead in the psyche of some US citizens and politicians nor in the psyche of some Canadians either.

There was a interview of an ex-military author here this week, regarding his recent book, that calls for more significant, immediate, investment in the Canadian Military.

His premise was that if Canada didn't do it and quickly, the US would use Canada's lack of military preparedness, as an excuse to step in and take over, in the guise of protecting America, because militarily Canada's ability to do so is limited. And there goes the last semblance of Canadian sovereignty.

There is hardly any political move that is made in Canada without trying to second guess how it will effect our relationship with the US and the subsequent economic and political ramifications. This is the consequence of living next to a nation that likes to win...everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

Sorry, Mick -- I forgot to mention, even emphasize, that we have a lot of over-the-top rabidly paranoid people here in Canada who are constantly coming up with conspiracy theories involving terrorism, or the US, or "the loss of Canadian identity because of immigration" and other nonsense. I didn't mean to sound as though all extreme remarks come from south of the border!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:21 PM

Hmmmm, Metch, and I thought all the paranoid wacko's lived here in the States. I must tell you that any politician that tried that would be done in a heartbeat. Trust one thing, I have been a part of the politics of this country for a long time. I have never heard any discussion of anything close to this. And I don't know anyone who would support such a ludicrous proposition. If that is a concern of the Canadians, I am going to have to hear it from more than just one person. I have never heard it discussed amongst my Canadian friends or my US friends. Nor would I ever support such a ridiculous suggestion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:22 PM

Metchosin, we cross-posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:27 PM

Yeah, Metch and PDC, it is really something what folks come up with. Although I understand the predicate that the retired military officer, I just can't see how that would ever fly in the States. I know that if the Canadian Government asked for military assistance due to a threat on Canada, we would respond positively. How could we do anything else? But move to take over the sovereignty? I hardly think so. But I am open to debate on the issue.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM

Face it folks, no one has a corner on stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:45 PM

Well, Mick -- what if the economy in the US continued to worsen, and resources became scarcer, and Bush was re-elected, and the right wing went even further right? The populace of any country can be convinced with rhetoric to do anything at all, IMO, so if enough lies were told, especially about "protecting Canada, our friend and ally," people would read it, buy the whole idea, and turn to the sports page. In both countries.

Of course that's not going to happen, and you and I know that. But there are enough nuts out there that sometimes the unthinkable actually gets thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

Maybe not quite the stretch you envision Big Mick, when people are frightened enough, a substantial number can even be made to believe that an an invasion of Iraq is a sane and reasonable way to protect themselves from terrorists.   

However, America doesn't have to invade Canada to control it economically or politically, we've got enough of our own citizens and politicians who are only too happy to let you have control or sell the whole damned country to you, little by little, piece by piece.

No invasion needed in the short term, as long as we don't turn left again and do something radically socialistic, as we did with universal medicare.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:28 PM

Too right, Metchosin! That was one of the few aspects of Chretien's leadership that I liked -- with same sex marriage and looser marijuana laws he took us at least a little away from the economic and cultural dominance of the US. Now we'll have to see what Martin does, as he's a businessman who is further right. I hope he's not like some of our previous leaders who would sell anything in our country for a dollar.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:42 PM

Heck, we've already got New Hampshire, the UP, North Dakota and Montana...who needs Canada? Toronta and Vancouver are nice, though...how about a short-term lease? Gotta stop saying "eh" and start saying "y'all", though.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:50 PM

Eh? I already say y'all. Thought the Yanks got it from us, eh?

And, Chief Chaos, you have seriously pissed me off with your notion that Bob and Doug stereotyped the worst Canada has to offer. That was the BEST. Just for that, give us back William Shatner. Gloves are off now, man. Hey, Raptor and LH, you hear what this guy said? Says Bob and Doug are hosers, man. We gonna take that layin' down? Or should we just take it sprawled on the floor, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:08 PM

Aw Take Off Eh

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM

pdc, he operated his company by expediency and gutted the Canadian medical system when he was Finance Minister, why would one expect anything better from him as Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:04 PM

And we still need some bloody helicopters for our Armed Forces and SAR people. That's a national disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:31 PM

Metchosin, there is a theory that Medicare's problems stem from Chapter 11 of NAFTA, which Martin had to cave in on. If you google Canada +Health Care +NAFTA, you will probably come up with some interesting stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

Just remind America that the reason we dont have a large military is our never ending supply of corrupt politicians, who waste our money and resources on other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

It is interesting to note that the countries that spend the greatest amount of their GNP on the military are North Korea and Angola.

It is also interesting that the US is pushing Canada and not Mexico to increase its military spending. But then again when you supposedly want to "level the playing field", regarding NAFTA, I guess aspiring to the lowest common denominator of the social well being of the "players" seems to make sense to the US. After all, it seems to believe it is the arbiter of all standards.

The Case Against More Military Spending in Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:21 PM

"Canada is a peaceful country and has no enemies." The inference, I suppose, is the U. S. is not a peaceful country. To that I say horse pucky.

In the first place if you think Canada has no enemies you are sorely mistaken. Last time I heard, Canada is a free country and Terrorists do not like countries that are free. I wouldn't count on Osama giving Canada a pass were I you.

As far as the question is concerned, no, I do not think Canada is getting a free ride. It seem to me that country was among the first to send troops to Afghanstan. I'm not sure if any Canadians are members of the coilition forces in Iraq though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM

We were in the Gulf War; not this one, Doug. However, as ever, we have a few ships in the Persian Gulf for interdiction and rescue. Did when last I knew of it, anyway.

We do not feel the sense of impending terrorist doom that Americans feel. Not to say it couldn't happen. But, I trust that our government would give JTF2 a license to count coup. I don't think anyone has ever really pissed this country off, but if I know the people here, we'd applaud a hunting license for our special forces if anyone f#cked with us. And fact is that JTF2 is as good as they get--with all respect to SAS.

Glad you're back--I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

DougR - Terrorists are terrorists because they do not have the big guns to fight their oppressors in an all out war. Where did you get the idea that, Terrorists do not like countries that are free??? Seems to me that its an act of self defense and an act of independence.

Do you think the IRA did not want a free country?

Canada is not a target of terrorism because it is not a country that tries to bully other countries politically or economically.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 03:14 PM

Dianavan, you anticipated my post. Thank you for stating the case so well.

Just one little extra: DougR said "The inference, I suppose, is the U. S. is not a peaceful country."

That made me laugh out loud. No, the US is not a peaceful country -- it was, and could be again, but at the present time and since WWII, the US is not and has not been, a peaceful country. Pre-emptive war is not "peaceful," no matter the justification. Peace generally means the absence of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 03:55 PM

DougR - Terrorists are terrorists because they do not have the big guns to fight their oppressors in an all out war. Where did you get the idea that, Terrorists do not like countries that are free??? Seems to me that its an act of self defense and an act of independence.

Do you think the IRA did not want a free country?

Canada is not a target of terrorism because it is not a country that tries to bully other countries politically or economically.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:08 PM

While I accept that the US is currently a country that bullies and coerces other countries politically and economically, and that preemptive war is morally unjustifiable, I would also chip in that Canada is not a target of terrorism because it is a marginal, usually symbolic, player in geopolitics.

As an aside, I'm not sure that my three BC sisters above know (maybe some do) that Big Mick saw some of the worst that the Vietnam conflict had to offer. (There's a thread that describes it in part.) I know all three of you are sincere in your writings, and I would never suggest sugar-coating substantive debate-- I'm not even saying that its directly relevant --I'm just . . . tossing in a tidbit that you might consider useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:36 PM

So is Spain, but they sided with the Brits and Americans in the UN (over the Iraq invasion) didn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

And maybe someone ought to watch Bulgaria.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:48 PM

Well, that's a third angle. But Spain does not "bully other countries politically or economically." So dianavan and I would both have been wrong if we had been suggesting that there were only her way (bullying) or my way (being a major player)to attract notice from Al Qaeda.

No, the Spanish sure as hell didn't get a free ride, did they.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:52 PM

Canada is not a target of terrorism because it is not a country that tries to bully other countries politically or economically.

Canada is also a country that, not too many decades ago, stood up to its own domestic terrorists, the FLQ, a group whose arguments were not that different from the ETA in Spain.

As a western democracy, it is not clear that Canada can count on continuing to be free of the type of terrorist attacks suffered by the USA on 9/11, or by Spain this week.

Terrorists are terrorists because they do not have the big guns to fight their oppressors in an all out war. Where did you get the idea that, Terrorists do not like countries that are free??? Seems to me that its an act of self defense and an act of independence.

That is utter nonsense. Terrorism has nothing to do with self defense and independence. One of the goals of terrorists is to break down freedom. Restrictions of freedom and civil liberties are almost a by-product of terrorism. Terrorists, by and large, are also well aware that their actions are going to bring repression and reaction on to the very people that they claim to be representing. By and large, they don't give a shit about people or about life itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:55 PM

Restrictions of freedom and civil liberties are almost a by-product of terrorism.

What I meant to say was: Restrictions of freedom and civil liberties are almost *always* a by-product of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

Terrorists have no objection whatsoever to countries that are "free"...nor does anyone else, except certain great powers who resent people who don't meekly follow orders.

He who follows orders that are against his own interests is not free.

Terrorists have objections only to this: anyone that they perceive as threatenting THEIR freedom. The USA practices terrorism, Israel practices terrorism, and Al Queda practices terrorism...all aggressors practice terrorism...all of them for their own specific reasons. They each perceive their FREEDOM as being threatened.   Their freedom to do exactly what they want, where and when they want, that is...which is an immature jerk's definition of "freedom". He means: freedom for ME and my friends but not necessarily for anybody else.

Every aggressive country around seems to rest under the illusion that it is a bastion of freedom, and educates its young people to believe that. It's mere propaganda. Every society is free in some ways, not so free in others.

Terrorists are NOT opposed to freedom. They are opposed to those who happen to be opposed to them over a variety of nasty issues, such as who has the power, who has the money, and who calls the shots.

Killers out of uniform are called "terrorists". Killers in uniform are called "soldiers". To those killed, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 06:15 PM

I'll rehash something I said on another thread. The purpose of terrorist activity is to terrorize civilians. You don't really do that by killing the military. You do that by killing indiscriminately--and if there are children and women in the group, so much the better from a terrorist point of view. The response from governments is fast and often causes divisions within the country that was attacked. It happen in Quebec with the FLQ, it happened in the USA with the 9/11 attacks, and it may happen in Spain. Governments react to reassure their respectyive citizens, but sometimes they get a little 'hard' in the way they respond.

I think people ought to examine whether or not that is the REAL goal (strategic goal) of terrorism. The tectical stuff is straight forward. But response by governments can be predicted, also. Look there a bit more, IMO. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 07:16 PM

Hmmm ! - On the terrorism side, does anybody recall what happened to an Air India 747 that departed from Canada some years ago.

I believe the fragments, and corpses, splashed in Irish teritorial waters.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 07:28 PM

I guess we didn't take it personally Gareth. (no emoticons allowed)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 07:51 PM

I don't exactly agree with your definition, Bruce. Every since the invention of strategic bombing it has been common military policy to kill vast numbers of civilians and to attack the entire civilian infrastructure of a targeted country, thus causing death and misery to noncombatant men, women, and children. Italy did it before WWII in Africa and Spain. Germany did it in Spain. Japan did it in China. Then came the World War, and the Germans, British, Americans, and Japanese did it in numerous places (the Japanese mainly in China). To put it simply, they all did it wherever and whenever they had the power to! The intent was to terrorize the enemy civilian populace to such an extent that there would be a complete collapse of social organization in the targeted country. The most effective use of strategic bombing was by the RAF on Germany, and by the USA on Japan. It killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, possibly even a million or more. This was deliberate intent to terrorize civilian populations and demolish mainly civilian targets. Allied fighter pilots in late '44 and '45 were instructed to strafe "targets of opportunity" which included any human being, vehicle or domestic animal they saw on the ground in Germany. American submarines were running out of full size ships to sink around Japan around that same time, so they took to massacring Japanese fishermen in little wooden boats. It's documented. The Japanese were doing even more hideous stuff to civilians in China, and had been for years.

Sounds like terrorism to me.

Other examples of terrorism: the Holocaust, and Stalin's purges.

I find it amazingly hypocrytical that those with the money and power to field great national armies call other people without such money and power "terrorists" when the only difference in the final result is this: the so-called "terrorists" must operate clandestinely and they manage to kill far fewer people in the long run (because they have far less manpower and firepower at their disposal). The basic impulse is much the same...the ruthless use of raw power for the purpose of victory...or if not victory, vengeance.

When is a killer not a killer under this system of thinking? Oh, that's easy, they say! He's not a killer when he kills for "us". "Us" being the good guys, of course.

And if you happen to be born on the other side, just reverse the faces and names of the heroes and villains, and call those opposing you "terrorists". It's that simple.

Every revolution starts with acts of terrorism. The American revolution did, and so did the creation of Israel. When the terrorists win, they become "freedom fighters". When they lose, they remain only "terrorists".

"Terrorist" is a handy insult word used by the powerful and ruthless to describe the less powerful and ruthless.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 08:13 PM

LH you (I hope its not adhoministic to say) "always" fail to acknowledge any value to the concept of an army being sent lawfully into action under the governing documents of a people, which documents in turn should be drafted in recognition of international agreements. Of course it's an extraordinarily imperfect system, and I can understand the meaning of "dispossessed," but can you not give any credence whatsoever to attempts to have international treaties and efforts directed at creating rules of military engagement? Can't guys with guns and loyal guerrilas ever be bad guys, too? Do you vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 09:22 PM

Heric said, "you ... "always" fail to acknowledge any value to the concept of an army being sent lawfully into action under the governing documents of a people, which documents in turn should be drafted in recognition of international agreements."

I believe that the last time the US participated in war action with that many caveats to make it lawful was WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:40 PM

Clauswitz was clear, LH, and I do not dispute your post in that regard. The difference I think occurs when the deaths happen in war or on a calm Tuesday or Thursday faternoon when people are thinking about supper and a night of TV or whatever.

I guess we can spin the semantics, but terrorisms business is to terrorize. I'm aware of Coventry, the allied refusal to bomb Auschwitz (when they did the Polesti oilfields), the raids on Germany to set firestorms: what you say is true, but that was to break the will of the people in a declared war. It is terrorism, but there is a distinction: there is no war in Spain between that country and any other. That's the difference I see.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:18 PM

Yeah, sure, Bruce, I get your point about that, and I agree that the act carries a more shocking quality, in a sense, simply because it is totally unexpected. And, yes, it is despicable terrorism to do such bombings, and I am entirely opposed to such terrorism.

I am about equally opposed to the terrorism launched by aggressive governments who hide behind the fig leaf of their own legality or the pretense of it. Hitler did that too.

Heric - Yeah, for sure I vote, but not with much optimism generally speaking. :-) I also acknowledge that governments must sometimes fight wars. Clearly. Although, given a little more maturity on both sides, it wouldn't have to happen. Maybe that's too much to hope for?

I don't admire revolutionaries who blow up innocent people any more than I do governments who blow up innocent people. What burns me is that the governments have this false notion of their own legitimacy. They think that their style of murder is legitimate, even heroic. They think they're better than killers out of uniform. I think they're living in fantasy land to make such an assumption. Stalin, with all the august authority of his government at his command, killed way more people than Al Queda is ever likely to. So did Pol Pot. So did Mao. And so has the USA in its various adventures, Vietnam being the most protracted and destructive of those so far.

I am simply trying to look past the cultural cliches of my particular era to what is really happening on the ground level to ordinary people who happen to get in the way.

I notice that in the New Testament Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for who? The high and mighty, the proud, the authority figures of his society at the time...scribes and pharisees. They were the guys at the top of the pecking order. He called them hypocrites, whitewashed tombs filled with bones and decaying bodies. I'm not trying to preach religion here, I'm just offering it as a rare example of honesty. He said what most people didn't dare to. The style of his time was this: you can accuse poor people, thieves, moneylenders, prostitutes and such of all heinous acts...but DON'T accuse the high priests of anything, because they are important people with clout and influence and prestige. They are beyond reproach. And they have the power to destroy you if you go too far.

I am saying that governments behave in the same fashion now as high priests did then. It's an analogy. Governments do the same vicious things as terrorists do, and they make the rules up as they go along, and they break the laws when they choose, but they feel it's okay, because they are the reigning authority system.

That's what you call a closed shop. The rich and powerful murder with impunity, and it doesn't get named for what it truly is: terrorism. Except when they lose to the other rich and powerful, as Hitler did. Then it's given a special name: Holocaust. If the winners had launched a holocaust of their own (and they did...with bombers) you wouldn't hear too much said about it shortly afterward that was very honest...or you would hear it justified by some patriotic rationale. As time went by a few obscure books might be written that revealed the horror and named those responsible for making the decisions and issuing the orders. Only one in a thousand people would read them. People prefer to divide the world into guys in white hats and guys in black hats, cos it's so much easier to pretend that life is simple, black and white.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:49 PM

Ya know, LH, that's pretty darn clever. The truth is that we grew up living with the greatest terrorist threat in history: nuclear Armageddon. I recall as a kid being scared about that. My whole generation--at least those who knew--had the good sense to be scared. To this day, I really have a dislike for the people who did that: the playboys and playgirls. It is time to take our world back, and there ain't much of that time left. Between the neocons lookin' for global domination, and the silly bastards who still believe in their twisted ideologies, really there isn't all too much time left.

Good post, buddy. I definitely hear you.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: flattop
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:52 PM

It sounds like we're talking about a hockey game.

While people in Spain and Iraq are suffering unbearable pain and sorrow.

Phil Ochs wrote, 'There but for fortune go you and I.'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: flattop
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:05 AM

Show me a country where the bombs had to fall
Show me the ruins of the buildings once so tall
And I'll show you a young land with so many reasons why
And there, but for fortune, go you or I

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: flattop
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:06 AM

GOD ON OUR SIDE
(Bob Dylan)

My name it means nothing, my age it means less
And the country I come from is called the Midwest,
Was taught and I learned there the law to abide
And the people who live there have God on their side

The history book tells it, it tells it so well
The cavalry charged and the Indians fell
The cavalry charged and the Indians died
Our country was young then with God on our side

The Spanish American War had its day
And the Civil War too was soon laid away
The names of the heroes, I was made to memorize
With their guns in their hands and God on their side

Oh the First World War, boys, it came and it went
The reasons for fighting I never did get
But I learned to accept it, to accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead with god on your side

The Second World War, boys, it came to an end
We forgave the Germans and called them our friends
Though they killed six million, in the ovens they fried
The Germans now too have God on their side

For many long years I've thought about this
That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss
I can't do it for you, you've got to decide
If Judas Iscariot had God on his side

I've learned to hate Russians all thru my whole life
If another war comes, it's them we must fight
To hate and to fear them, to run and to hide
And accept it all bravely with God on our side

But now we've got weapons of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to, then fire them we must
One push of the button and a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions with God on your side

So now as I'm leaving, I'm weary as hell
The confusion I'm feeling, ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head and fall to the floor
If God's on our side, He'll stop the next war

Copyright Warner Brothers, Inc.
@war @political
recorded on Newport '83
filename[ GODONSID
TUNE FILE: PATGAME

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:07 AM

Sometimes, talkin' about it is the way people deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:09 AM

Canada is involved in 12 peacekeeping operations at present. Those countries and their civilians are hurting, too. No, it ain't hockey, but Iraq and Spain ain't the only ones hurting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: flattop
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:17 AM

Agree with you on all counts, cousin brucie.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:21 AM

Yeah, Flattop, perspective is hard in these situations. Sorry. Crappy day, and I do apologize for the attitude. Later, buddy. Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:19 PM

(Thanks LH.   I'm sure looking forward to uninteresting times.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, me too. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 10:59 PM

Three countries with huge land masses are the USA, Canada, and Russia.
Two of these have been watching each other through gunsights for many years, and the other has been directly in the line of fire. Throughout the cold war our only hope for survival was to promote world peace, which we tried to do. As no rocket or bullet flew we must have had some success. We do not spend nearly enough on our military, but that has nothing to do with a free ride. We need to equip our troops much better, not to go to war but to provide things like search and rescue on the worlds longest coastline. It is criminal of our government to not provide our peacekeepers with the best available resources when we send them to the worlds hotspots. It is a credit to these brave troops that they continue to operate as well as they do with antiquated equipment.
They are heroes that make us proud !

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

It's a great time to be alive. I love it all, even the stuff I hate. Life's too short not to have regrets. If I'm getting a free ride, then someone point me towards the wet bar; I've got some more bumper stickers to compose.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:34 PM

Did Canada ever invade another country for its resources?
To expect a country with 20 million people to have the defense budget of one that has 300 million is stupid.

Anyone who trashes Canada in front of me better keep his chin tucked in.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:51 PM

"Did Canada ever invade another country for its resources?"

Ask the First Nations Peoples how they feel about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:41 AM

Kendall, Canada has more than 10% of the US population but way less than 10% of the military budget. I think, for the most part the issue is that Canada's goal is self defense and that the USA's is "force projection.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 12:50 PM

100% American from the state that looks 'down' on most Canadians 'cause we're North of most Canadians. Maybe it'd be more politically correct to say 'across'.
I love Canada for herself. Don't want you to be more like us whatsoever. Don't always agree or like every single person, but as a country, a territory, a place with its own grasp on multicultural domesticity, humo(u)r, and at least has stooped to spell Aluminum like us, and for the many many times have been on our side when we could use the help. And successfully defended herself when we tried to conquer her, Canada has my life-long respect.
We also expect will need your help from extra-terrestrial foes and there's a reason why I've heard reference to 'tasty Canadians' from one of our radio hosts. Apparently you're going to be our interplanetary buffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 12:56 PM

Unless the alien overlords value good manners. In that case Canada and Japan will be last on the menu.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada getting a Free Ride?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 14 - 02:43 PM

Canadian dollar down to US $0.92. Supposedly because house sales were down last month, but sale prices at record levels.
Go figger!

Come on up, you US'ers. Make Canada green. Another pipeline or two also would help.