BS: The Lady Killers

Subject: BS: The Ladykillers
From: Strick
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:44 PM

McGrath mentioned a successful case of an Americanization of a British classic, All In The Family in another thread. Made me think.

I saw a bit of Tom Hanks on Letterman pushing his new movie, The Ladykillers. From what Hanks said, I'm the only American who's see the original with Alec Guiness. It looks good and enough different to justify a remake. Is that a fair justification for this kind of transplant? Or was it a sacrilege to remake something when the original was this special?

More to the point, if this is good box office, what's next, The Lavender Hill Mob and Our Man in Havana?

My kids are insisting on going, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:03 PM

I've got to say the only remake I've seen so far that was worth the bother was Ocean's Eleven and that was mainly 'cos of George Clooney and that I don't think the original film is that much cop in the first place.

Other than that, there's a reason why these films are classics. They have hit upon a moment and a feeling that transend time. the remakes will never live up to the originals.

I shall now gracefully retire from me soap box.........

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

There's a distinction between remakes, and translations into another culture - which mostly means Americanisations (though Bollywood goes in for it as well, but the films don't get on general release over here.)

The classic example of the latter was The Magnificent Seven. Not as good as the Seven Samurai. But pretty good considering.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:08 PM

Also Yojimbo by Kurosawa.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:17 PM

I loved Alec Guiness's quiet, understated humor. I'm not sure Hollywood knows how to do that anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:50 AM

To the best of my knowledge "Yojimbo" has been remade twice. As "A Fistful of Dollars" with Clint and as "Last Man Standing" with Bruce. Most remakes never seem to capture the original's magic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:59 AM

I hate the word "remake". That makes it sound as if the original has been altered and turned into something different. In reality, the original still exists in it's original form and is readily available. Why not let someone else have their take on the concept? The remake rarely tries to "capture" the orignal magic, rather it intends to create it's own magic.

I'm sure Bill Shakespeare would not have liked Olivier's take on his works either. Those films never matched the original production at the Globe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:49 PM

The film looks hilarious - and Tom Hanks is one of my favorite actors. Anyone seen it yet??

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:15 PM

Don't forget that cretinous ramble of last year 'The Italian Job' which was more an advert for a small car than a serious effort.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:20 PM

"The film looks hilarious - and Tom Hanks is one of my favorite actors. Anyone seen it yet??"

Be patient. I think it comes out Friday.

The bad thing about a bad remake of a great movie is that it sours people who haven't had a chance to see the real original. The good thing about a bad remake of a great movie is you can always go back and watch the original -- if you can find it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

Darn Strick - I had no idea it was a remake of an old movie. But then again most of them are I suppose.

Guess if I'd pay more attention I would have known it had not been released yet. Spring and yard work tend to over ride the obvious at times!

Thanks
Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:12 PM

Sometimes it has happened that the film companies have deliberately set out to stop people seeing the previous version of movies that have been remade.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

Strick, it will probably come as no surprise to you that I, too, have seen the original The Lady Killers. It has been a long time because that one doesn't come around often. But now that there is a new version, one of the cable networks that plays old films will dig it up.

There are some interesting remakes of films, and I'll give a few examples.

Janet Gaynor was in the original A Star is Born, in 1937, with Frederic March. This was remade in 1954 by Judy Garland with James Mason, and most recently in 1976 by Barbra Streisand with Kris Kristofferson. While the most recent one did win an oscar for Streisand's song "Evergreen," I don't think there was a lot that people really loved about that version. The one that comes to my mind first is the first "remake" of the story, with Judy Garland.

In 1940, James Stewart and Margaret Sullavan made The Shop Around the Corner. That was was remade by Judy Garland and Van Johnson in 1949 and put out under the improbable name of In the Good Old Summertime. It was again remade in 1998, this time by Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan in You've Got Mail [note to AOL, grammatically that should say You Have Mail]. Each of these has a lot to recommend them without reference to the other versions.

In 1934 Alfred Hitchcock made the first of his two versions of The Man Who Knew Too Much, the first one with a British cast of Leslie Banks and Edna Best (and I really do like her roll in this!) and in 1956 with Doris Day and James Stewart "Sorry we were late, we had to go pick up our son!".

An absolute little gem of a mystery is Hitchcock's 1935 The 39 Steps with Robert Donat and Madeline Carroll. In looking this one up (I've been to IMDB a lot this week!) I found a remake I'd never heard of, produced in 1959 with Kenneth More (well known to Americans as Jolyon Forsyte from the 1967 version of the Forsyte Saga, remade in 2002 and played again as part of Masterpiece Theater). I never went to see the 1978 remake of The 39 Steps with Robert Powell (though I see by the cast list it had some good supporting folks). I wasn't interested because I liked the earlier version so well and the trailer looked like the story had been "sexed up" with a lot of violence. I see that there is another version in production at this time, but no information about it.

The 1949 classic film Gaslight with Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boyer was a remake of a 1940 film with Diana Wynyard and Anton Walbrook. I hadn't seen this until recently when one of the classic movie channels did Wynyard movies all day to celebrate her birthday. I'd never heard of her before, or of this movie.

There are some films that should have been left alone. Sabrina, An Affair to Remember (the acting wasn't that good, but the story really grabbed you), anything Hitchcock made that he didn't redo himself, anything Judy Holliday made, anything Kathryn Hepburn made. Anything Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy made (unless Howard Keel does the remake). Anything Howard Keel made. . .

I'll stop for a breath now. But you get my drift, I think. There are a lot of interesting films out there, some are okay as remakes, some are better, some are a great waste of time. It all depends on who does it and how they handle it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:56 PM

There's only about twenty original movies, and ALL the rest have been remakes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:59 PM

I'm familiar with all of those. I thought Hitch redid a few of the movies he made, particularly the ones he made while he was still in Britain. I may be wrong. They've certainly butchered the remakes he wasn't involved in (with the possible exception of Rebecca).

I haven't seen the remakes of The 39 Steps, but I suppose you won't be surprised to hear it's over there in my private movie cabinet. I haven't seen Gaslight in years and skipped it the other night because I wasn't in the mood. Not my favorite. The original Shop Around The Corner was delightful as was it's musical version, She Loves Me.

I may have to disagree with your exclusion of Hepburn from remakes, though. Part of it is that I miss Spenser Tracy more than Kate, but not much.    I'd kinda like to see a remake of Adam's Rib or even Pat and Mike. Besides, What's Up Doc was a pretty remake of Hepburn and Cary Grant's Bringing Up Baby.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:18 PM

I certainly prefer Kakushi Toride No San-Akunin to Star Wars. R2D2 and C3PO are not a patch on Tahei and Mataschichi

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:25 PM

You know, I had forgotten this was a Coen Brothers movie. Produced by Disney if I understand right. It could get a little weird...

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:59 PM

One of my favorite Hepburn/Tracy films is one written by Nora Ephron's parents, Desk Set. It's a witty mature romance. You simply couldn't make it as a story set today with the computer-replaces/displaces-human premise however, considering the ever-shrinking footprint of modern computers.

I also thought Hitchcock remade more of his early films, but I can't find which they might be. I am sure I once "knew" what the others were (or thought I knew!)

Considering Hepburn, the remake of The Philadelphia Story into High Society was pretty good--though I thought Bing was way too old for Grace. Some other films made by Grant and Hepburn (though not together), like Arsenic and Old Lace and African Queen (after which Hepburn wrote a book called something like "How I Went to Africa with Bogart and Bacall and Nearly Lost My Mind") are sacrosanct.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:01 PM

I'm sorry, while Cary Grant is magic in Arsenic and Old Lace, I could see someone else doing it. Any one but Jim Carrey, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:15 PM

Actually, I wasn't thinking so much of Cary Grant's role in the movie, but the movie itself. Peter Lorre and Raymond Massey were incredibly funny in there, as were the other members of the cast. Grant was a leading man of the day who landed that role, and I agree, any number of others could have played it as well. It's the result of that cast that makes the film such fun. I see that there was a remake for TV with Lilian Gish and Helen Hayes. Bob Crane played Mortimer Brewster. Now there is an inspired job of casting. :/

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:16 PM

Back to Americanisations - they made a pretty dreadful version of La Cage aux Folles called The Birdcage. I believe there's a version of Cinema Paradiso, but I don't think I couldn't bear to see that transplanted. That sort of thing does seem pretty pointless - in fact worse than pointless, because it takes away a major part of the enjoyment, which is getting under the skin of a foreign culture. (Well, it doesn't so much for us, because it's a foreign culture anyway, but it surely must for Americans. Very strange.)

I don't know if The Italian Job counts as a remake or an Americanisation. I saw it the other day, and I'm one of the few people who've seen the remake but not the original. Slick enough, but when it comes to caper movies, none of them are a patch on The Lavender Hill Mob. I prefer movies where there's some character for ehom I want things to turn out well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Strick
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 01:57 PM

A review of the movie:

'Ladykillers' is a killer remake

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:38 PM

However good the remake of The Ladykillers is, I suspect I'll still prefer the original. Even though I first watched it years after it was made, it's one of my favourite films.
Besides which, I tend to admire most the version that I watched first!

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Hollowfox
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:50 PM

I was raised on Sir Alec Guinnes movies, and love them dearly. After seeing a trailer for the Coens' Ladykillers, I went home and rewatched the original. I'm cautiously optimistic that the Coens' film will be enjoyable. However, I think that comparing the two movies will be a bit like comparing Romeo & Juliet with West Side Story (or The Odyssey with O Brother Where Art Thou *g*). I have a feeling that they took the premise and made it into something all their own.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Burke
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:41 PM

From the Soundtrack CD it looks like it might be worthwhile for the music.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

Hollowfox, I assume when you say "Romeo and Juliet" you're not referring to Baz Luhrman's version?
Now that was a bad remake (IMVHO, of course)

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:10 PM

Just saw this movie and the music was GREAT! Never heard of any of the performers before but we waited until the last credit to find out who they were, only to have the names fly by too fast for me to read. Frank caught "The Soul Stirrers." The black gospel music was the best I've heard, and there was also some shape note and blues plus dashes of classical chamber. Music started and ended the film and was heard throughout.

The movie itself? It had some funny parts and the acting by Tom Hanks and Irma P. Hall and the rest was very good. The Coen brothers films (I've now seen two) are definitely different from the typical hollywood fare and worth seeing. However, there was a large dose of violence, this time done with dark humor and irony, but gruesome nonetheless. Am I just getting squeamish and overly sensitive?

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Strick
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:36 AM

By an odd coincidence I didn't get to see the movie until today. We really liked the music, too, but it was the language, not the violence that bothered us. Knew what was going to happen to the crew from the beginning because of the plot from the original.

If you think about it, only a couple of characters meet their end at the hands of anyone else and one of them off screen. For everyone else it's accidental.

As far as violence goes, this was nothing compared to any number of movies. My boys want to go see Hellboy, think about that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:01 AM

What really bothers me about the violence - even when done with humor and even if integral to the plot - is that it desensitizes us to it eventually. People get used to the images and the idea, and it becomes acceptable and accepted in everyday movies, everyday experience. Or it makes people like me overly sensitive.

Language, on the other hand, does the same thing (in my opinion). I wasn't offended by the language because those 4-letter words have become so common and so frequently used by everyone, sometimes myself included. I greatly enjoy the clever use of words in print and spoken, and when mixed with good comedic timing even the repetition of the same old words can be funny and effective. Now that my kids are grown, I can relax that they don't walk around spouting expletives as a result of this exposure, but of course I would think differently with younger children.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Strick
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

Ah, but that language isn't used by everyone in my circle, certainly not to that level. Maybe in "hippity-hop" circles (inside joke).

As I said, in the relative scheme of things, there was death but little violence in the movie. Any major "action picture" would roll up a higher, more obviously violent body count in the first 5 minutes. A slasher movie...

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 May 05 - 03:43 PM

I just saw a video of the Tom Hanks film "The Ladykillers." It was wonderful. Now I'm wondering why it got relatively little attention at Mudcat when it first came out. It has a lot in common with "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" (for which over 20 threads were started!) Both were written, directed and produced by the Coen brothers. Both were comedies. Both make extensive use of music, and some of it was traditional. T-Bone Burnett co-ordinated the soundtrack in both cases. (For "The Ladykillers" it was mainly southern black gospel.) If you ask me, the characters in "The Ladykillers" were even more fascinating than those in "O Brother," and the dialog was better written and funnier.

Even though I did find this one thread, it has very little about music in it, and it was classified "BS." Huh?

Here's the soundtrack listing, from imdb.com:

"Come, Let Us Go Back To God"
Written by Thomas Dorsey
Performed by The Soul Stirrers

"Trouble Of This World"
Traditional/Arranged by Henry Burnett, Bill Maxwell and Keefus Ciancia
Produced by T-Bone Burnett, Bill Maxwell and Keefus Ciancia
Live Performance by Rose Stone with The Venice Four and The Abbot Kinney Lighthouse Choir

"Trouble In, Trouble Out"
Written by William Hughes, Brian Scott, Melvin Adams, Ronald Wilson, Keefus Ciancia,
Henry Burnett
Produced by T-Bone Burnett and Keefus Ciancia
Performed by Nappy Roots
Contains a sample of "Trouble Of This World"
Traditional
Performed by Bill Landford & The Landfordaires

"Jesus I'll Never Forget"
Written by Roy Crain
Performed by The Soul Stirrers

"Troubled, Lord I'm Troubled"
Traditional
Performed by Bill Landford & The Landfordaires

"Trouble Of This World (Coming Home)"
Written by William Hughes, Melvin Adams, Kenneth Anthony, Brian Scott, Ernest Franklin, Henry Burnett
Produced by Sol Messiah for SME, LLC, Tahir for Hedrush, LLC and T-Bone Burnett
Performed by Nappy Roots
Chorus Performed by Rose Stone, Freddie Stone and Lisa Stone
Contains a sample of "Trouble Of This World"
Traditional
Performed by Bill Landford & The Landfordaires

"Sinners"
Written by P. Coleman, T. Jones, P. Douthit, Henry Burnett
Produced by 9th Wonder for the Planet, Inc. and T-Bone Burnett
Performed by Little Brother
Contains a sample of "A Christian's Plea"
Traditional
Performed by Claude Jeter and The Swan Silvertones

"Another Day, Another Dollar"
Written by Brian Scott, Vito Tisdale, William Hughes, Taylor Massey, Freddie Macintosh, Henry Burnett
Produced by Taylor Made and T-Bone Burnett
Additional Production by Freddie Mac for Black Rockers of America Entertainment
Performed by Nappy Roots
Contains a sample of "A Christian's Plea"
Traditional
Performed by Claude Jeter and The Swan Silvertones

"Let Your Light Shine On Me"
Traditional/Arranged by Blind Willie Johnson
Performed by Blind Willie Johnson

"Let The Light From The Lighthouse Shine On Me"
Traditional/Arranged by Bill Maxwell, Henry Burnett
Produced by T-Bone Burnett and Bill Maxwell
Performed by The Venice Four with Rose Stone and The Abbot Kinney Lighthouse Choir

"Yes"
Traditional/Arranged by Jerry Peters, Bill Maxwell, Henry Burnett
Produced by T-Bone Burnett and Bill Maxwell
Performed by The Abbot Kinney Lighthouse Choir featuring Kristle Murden

"Any Day Now"
Written by Faidest Wagoner and Jean Butler
Performed by The Soul Stirrers

"Weeping Mary"
Traditional
Performed by Rosewell Sacred Harp Quartet

"Come, Let Us Go Back To God"
Written by Thomas Dorsey
Performed by Donnie McClurkin

"Concerto Grosso In D Major, Op. 6, No. 4"
by Arcangelo Corelli
Performed by Capella Istropolitana; Jaroslav Krcek, conductor

"Minuet, Opus 13 No. 5"
by Luigi Boccherini
Performed by Orchestra di Camera di Roma; Flagello, conductor

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 May 05 - 05:29 PM

The music was the best thing about the Tom Hanks remake of "The Ladykillers." The DVD includes a couple of additional performances by the gospel choir featured in the movie, and they're pretty great, too.

I think a fair number of Americans over age 40-45 had some familiarity with the British original "Ladykillers," since it was shown often on TV in the 50s and early 60s. It was one of my father's favorite movies of all time, and he had never been to England. Of course, I had no idea until recently that it was originally filmed in color, having seen it exclusively on pre-color television in my youth.

There was a thread on the subject of "remakes" at about the same time as this thread dedicated to a particular remake, or perhaps a week or so earlier. I'm pretty sure some comments on the new "Ladykillers" (including some of mine) appear in that other thread.

Anyone who knew and loved the original would probably have found the more recent US version at least a little inferior, but it was different enough to stand on its own and claim its own identity and validity. I just don't thank it was all that great, and the proof is in the pudding ~ it wasn't tremendously successful. I don't think Tom Hanks (usually one of my favorite actors) was at his best in this one; his phony accest was pretty bad, and his whole characterization was similarly mediocre.

But Jim Dixon is right ~ the music is excellent!

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 05 - 05:42 PM

Whenever my wife and I watch a European film, understated, no special effects or explosions, working like a good narrative song with depth and character, we always say when it's finished;
"It couldn't be made in America." And having seen their re-makes of many European , particularly French films, we're right. Just get used to subtitles over there and enjoy the real thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 May 05 - 06:18 PM

What, Jim, no lyrics? Geez, you're slipping. :)

I'm ashamed to say that I still haven't seen the original. I loved the remake, but... it's not really top Coen bros. stuff. (It was a HUGE step up from "Intolerable Cruely," however, which made me laugh exactly one time. {The inhaler/pistol scene...}) I thought the music was great, the dialogue was perfect, the performances hilarious, but it just lacked something that their pre-"Intolerable Cruelty" films had... Hard to put my finger on what it is, though. It felt a bit rushed, maybe? And a bit too slick.

But still, I did love it.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 24 May 05 - 08:19 AM

Just a thought, but to me (aged 49 next Sunday) and many other Londoners the society and city portrayed in the Ladykillers (set in postwar London) IS a foreign culture.

The locations are no longer there, the railways no longer use steam power and how many little old ladies are able to let out rooms to gentlemen lodgers?

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:17 AM

I've spent a total of 24 hours out of my life in London (in August 2003, during the record heat wave), but when I rented the Ladykillers DVD a few months later, I was amazed to recognize the railway station featured in the movie, and even some of the surrounding streets.

When we took the train to London from my brother's home in East Anglia (via Ely and Cambridge), we arrived in the city at the very station featured in the film. (Is it King's Cross?) It hasn't changed all that much, and even some of the environs remained recognizable (taxi-stand area, etc.).

However, I don't recall a nearby cul-de-sac with a little old lady's house at the end of it, overlooking the tracks. Was that area really right there next to the station, I wonder, or was it on the Ealing Studios lot? Hmmmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:32 AM

i like Kevin Costner's Wyatt earp better than Burt Lancaster
but I preferred Errol Flynn's Robin Hood

Alec Guinness, Peter Sellers, Herbert Lom - helluva line up - Ithink Tom Hanks was very brave to even try.

Subject: RE: BS: The Lady Killers
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:56 AM

The cul de sac in the film should have been north of the station jusging by the amount of rail traffic and that area has been derelict and/or redeveloped for many years now. On the other hand the film has other indications that set it south of the station. It was most likely on a film set.