Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 09:36 PM

Thanks, Steve; so as suggested above, please email or PM me your postal address & I shall send you copy of the article. Michael

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 10:22 PM

In fact, Steve — I would point out also that my article dates from as long ago as 1966 & relates to a song I learned in 1958; so well predates your 'proven evolution' in the form of the Opies' mention in Lore&Language [which I acknowledge in it as having appeared between my collection & publication], the Clancys WelaWallia, The Spinners OldMotherLee, &c —

Indeed, I think I might reasonably claim mine as the pioneering piece on the link [your 'proven evolution'] between this particular children's song & Child 20. Can you point to an earlier publication suggesting this link?

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 11:24 PM

... in fact it even predated Bronson!

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:04 AM

thanks for this thread M, i have been wanting to download it for ages but never knew how it was spelt.
i have it now, god i love itunes, even if they have nicked the folk section.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 01:02 PM

Michael,
Off the top of my head I think one of the linking versions appeared in the Society Journals in the 30s but I will check this out thoroughly as soon as I get time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 02:30 PM

Don't lots of pairs of songs fit this genre?

Green & Yellow / Henry my son

L in C

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 02:41 PM

Thanks Steve, v interested in your possible Society Journal 1930s link, would like to know more about it. & there is of course Ruth Seeger's 1940 US children's variant,= All alone & I love you-all Down by the greenwood sidey-o = which I think made its way into Bronson; but that's a somewhat different strain from the WelaWalia/MotherLee series which we are concerned with here.

Still await your address to send you my NQ note which you have undertaken to read b4 denouncing me again [as I expect you will; but still think you shd read me 1st!].

Traditional greetings Michael

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 09:38 PM

Hello, Michael, I've sent you my email address as I am interested in reading more about this song.

As a bit of a digression, I'm curious if you and others think that the children's taunts about killing their teachers may have their bases in these "cruel mother" songs. For instance, these lines in
Fergie 12 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM's post:

The rope was pulled and she got hung
we la, we la, wall la,
and that old woman she wasn't very good
Round and round her body swung
down by the river Sáile

-snip-

remind me of this contemporary American rhyme:

Joy To The World
Joy to the world
our teacher's dead.
We barbecued her head.
What happened to her body?
We flushed it down the potty
And around and around it goes.
And around and around it goes.
And round and round and round it goes.
-Sara P.)Anglo-American),recited at Catholic middle school, Dayton, Ohio (mid to late 1990s); collected by Azizi Powell,September, 2005

**
And yes, I know that there are probably lots of songs that have lines about something going "round and round". I'm wondering about any possible connection between these "killing the teacher, principal" type rhymes and these United Kingdom "cruel mother" rhymes. For what it's worth, in my research to date, I haven't found any examples of these violent teacher taunts among African American children [from predominately or all Black schools]. And I'm curious if one reason for this could be the difference in cultural traditions that came from the UK and not only differences in cultural traditions between the two populations (European-American and African Americana) in the USA.

**

Also, a lot of versions of American handclap rhyme "Down By The Bank of the Hanky Panky" have as their first line "Down by the riverside hanky panky". I thought that the singers might have gotten the word "riverside" from the African American spiritual [Gonna lay down my sword and shield". Now I'm wondering if that word "riverside" in that widely known rhyme-which is played as a competitive handclap by childen, teens,and young adults-may have come from that "River Saile".

See this comment from MartinRyan 10 Mar 04 - 01:45 PM

"Dunno about erudition but I can give you a plausible derivation:

..down by the river-side, la (weak syllable to improve scansion)"...

-snip-

Of course,I realize that we'll never know, but I just wanted to through that into the mix. See this post I wrote for more on the origin of that rhyme: thread.cfm?threadid=94034#1815711
Origins: Down by the Banks of the Hanky Panky

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 10:07 PM

I was interested in this comment that Fergie made in her post of 12 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM:


"My grand father had me sing the first line, then he would reply in answer with the second line. He said that was how he learned it when he was a child, he was born in the heart of Dublin city in about 1890. He died in 1974 (Ar dheis Dé go raibh a ainm)."

-snip-

My question is this: Is this the same as the "call & response" pattern? If not, what is that pattern called? And is this (or was this) a common singing pattern in UK folk songs?

-snip-

Also, Fergie wrote "You seldom see street skipping in Dublin anymore, and you hear precious little of "the haunting childrens rhymes, that once were part of Dublin in the rare ould times"."

-snip-

For what it's worth, I concur with the observation that girls don't do "street skipping" (in the USA it's called "jumping rope") much anymore at least in the African American neighborhoods of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and surrounding communities. And when they do group junp rope, the girls turning the ropes on either end and the other girls waiting for their turn to jump seldom chant any rhymes. [I mention "girls" because mostly this is a girl activity]. Girls may count the number of jumps the girl in the middle successfully does, and I've heard girls sing the "Leave the kettle boiling/leave no spaces" rhyme that a teacher taught them. But that's it when it comes to chanting jump rope rhymes.

I think part of the blame for this is having electric dryers means not having any clotheslines that could be "borrowed" for the purpose of jumping rope. Also, it's easier to do handclapping cheers because you don't need anything but your hands or footstomping cheers (dance style cheerleader cheers)because you don't need anything but your feet and your hands.

But even at schools (like the one where I substitute teach) which supply jump ropes for recess, the girls don't chant while they jump rope. As a matter of fact, they don't do handclaps or foot stomping cheers during recess either. I think that girls only chant rhymes and do handclap and foot stomping routines in the comfort of their own setting with a small select group of friends because they're concerned about other people "talking about them" (insulting them).

And that's such a shame.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 10:17 PM

Two corrections-just to show you that I do recognize the errors of my ways:

The African American spiritual I was referring to is [Gonna lay down my sword and shiled] "Down By The Riverside".

Also, "through"="throw" in this sentence: "I just wanted to throw that into the mix".

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 10:27 PM

Okay. Yes. I made another error. I meant "shield" but wrote something else.

I apologize.

I shall now return to being a lurker after saying one more thing: Even though I've never heard this song, I really like the "sound" of the line "Weela Weela Walia".

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 11:32 PM

AZZI,
if you type the title into itunes it takes you to different versions. cracking song!!!! we has it on tape years ago and the tape snapped and i haven't been able to find it since.

it is such a shame that kids don't chant or sing mush trad. stuff these days, but then how many parents bring their kids up to respect the old ways? i don't come from a folkie background so i was never taught either, it seems such a shame to lose these things.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,billy
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:22 PM

my mom and grandparents grew up on this song. the its not baby at all. its dont stick knives in bobbys head. its not a baby its a little boy she had. iv been going around singing the song all day. i love it 2 :P

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 02:07 PM

billy,
Sorry but Liverpool 'babby'=baby came before the 'bobby' version. It might be a little boy in your version, but in hundreds of other versions it's a 'baby' or even several babies, and FWIW I love it too in all its manifestations.

In the 1960s Tony Davis (Spinners?) published a few verses of a version in Spin magazine vol 3 No 2. It is very close to the version Michael wrote about earlier in the thread. I gather from the article Tony's version came from Cheshire (Michael's from London) Both 'Old Mother Lee'. I have been PMing Michael and his very interesting version has a tune quite close to that of 'For he's a jolly good fellow'.

Query. Does anyone know if Tony published his tune? Does anyone know of other versions that follow this pattern...

There was an old woman called old Mother Lee
Old Mother Lee, Old Mother Lee
There was an old woman called old Mother Lee
Down by the walnut tree....
or use a variant of this tune? We're obviously not talking about the 'Weile Weile Wolye' variants/pattern here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM

Sorry I've just reread the whole thread and Tony's LIVERPOOL version is given in full. Does anyone know if it's on a Spinners LP?

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 10 - 02:29 AM

I always wondered if the lyrics
"weila weila waila"
Originally derive from the Irish word
"abhaile"
Which means home/homeward
Often pronounced "a wella" or "ah wal yeh"

Just an Idea.

B Delaney
Dublin
Ireland

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Mao_li_Osa
Date: 18 May 10 - 11:59 AM

Fascinating thread! Thanks to all for contributing.

By way of digression, I learned this song as a transplanted Irish child five or so decades ago. Years later, I taught it to my own children, who took to it with glee. When they sang it for their pals in the schoolyard, the teachers immediately banned the singing of it and sent a stiff message home about teaching "inappropriate" songs to my kids...

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 18 May 10 - 12:18 PM

Yeah, well, Guest Mao, what do teachers know, anyway? Stick to YOUR guns. Teach 'em trad songs. Keep 'em singing. Tw

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 May 10 - 02:21 PM

Mao,
I'm helping to run a seminar for music leaders and teachers in York in July. One of the songs we'll be recommending to teachers is this one, in all its forms.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Sandy
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:55 PM

@O'Faolain I've heard the same story about the grandmother and the famine. I think it was Ronnie Drew I heard tell it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,digger
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 07:36 AM

Not so much on the origins but connected. In December 2010 was hiking in Hapao, Hungduan province, deep into the Mountains in the northern Philippines. An amazing and beautiful region but very remote (and about 11,000 miles from "The Liberties") so you can imagine that I nearly fell out of me shoes when I heard some of the native children there singing this song - with a lot of the words having a decidedly inner-city Dublin accent. It turns out a Dublin chap has got himself married to one of the local girls and they visit here every couple of years. I remember the song from way back when but it came as a real shock to hear sang so faithfully in such exotic surroundings.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Christine
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM

I heard this song in Dun Laoghaire from some children themselves not jump img roped . It is a shame that kids don't chant when jumping rope. Bit I. Dud see some little girls doing so in Windhoek Namibia.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 06:19 AM

I am a bit disappointed to see no one complaining about Joe's ABC code of 12½ years ago, which obviously was produced from the MIDI by software, misplacing the bar lines. Are black dots a case for a strong detergent?

The same tune with corrected bar lines:

X:1
T:Weela Wallia
M:2/2
Q:1/4=120
K:D
A|"D" A AF2F FA2|A2F F F4|D2F2A2A2|"G" B4 "D" A3\
w:There was an old wo-man who lived in the wood, Wee-la wee-la wall-ia;
A|"A" A AE2E EA2|A2E EE4|"D/F#" A2A3/2 B/2A2F2|"A7" E4 "D" D3|]
w:There was an old wo-man who lived in the wood, Down by the ri-ver Sall-ia.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

You can find full lyrics, chords and video on the Martin Dardis site www.unitedirelandtripod.ie or just put Martin Dardis site in search

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Clontarf83
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 02:30 PM

First time I heard it was on a Radio Eireann show called "The School Around the Corner" hosted by Paddy Crosby. The show consisted of getting little kids (usually inner city)up for a brief interview and then they do a song or a "pome". A kid came up with this ballad and had the audience in stitches.

The format often asked the kid to tell of a "funny incidence" and one kid came up with this (I heard about this indirectly, so I hope its not a wind up)

Kid: "There wuz a horse and it fell down a hole, and they had to shoot it"
Paddy: "and where did they shoot it?"
Kid: "In the hole"

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 02:16 PM

True we don't see kids skipping any more, guess they're all too stoned or obese!

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Richard Harold's Cross
Date: 05 Jun 12 - 01:40 PM

Interesting comment on the abhaile (homewards) as an explanation for weela weela awaala. One other item that would suggest this version as distinctly Irish is my understanding of the river Saile as being the Irish for the Willow river, saile meaning willow tree, as in The Sally Gap in the mountains above Dublin (rather than the dirty river as suggested at the start with its shorter vowel and harsh ending, although it too is possible) . Always called, by true Dubliners, as Sally's Gap (maybe she owned the unfortunate horse) it is the Willow tree gap. Although for a long time as a kid I heard it and sang it as the river sai'ed in the Dublin accent for side, where single vowel words tend to have the vowel lenghtened and pronounced twice; words like wo'ords, or "come hee'ar", for come here or "whe'ar" for where but I think Saile is the correct word since as kids we would have heard it long before we read the words.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:22 PM

My Mam always sung it 'She stuck the knife in the loaf of bread'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Fergie
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 07:36 PM

GUEST

I think you mother was trying to protect you from reality.

Fergus

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:30 PM

Yes I was and and still am a member of Wrigley Head. WE learnt the same from John Price of Earlsdone Morris.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:19 AM

Answering a long-ago question (13 years old), the Poddle, which flows through Kimmage and down to join the Liffey at the centre of Dublin (though the central part is long since culverted) was known as "abhann salach" or "dirty river" (probably because of mills and tanneries along it), and is thought to be the origin of the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:52 PM

Further to Michael's offer (Sept 7th, 09, 02.41 pm) to send me his article relating a version of this song to Babylon (Child 14), he did indeed send me the article and this is by way of a belated thankyou. However my previous comments still stand.

Now sadly Michael is no longer with us, if anyone requires a copy I'd be happy to supply it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Sourdough
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 10:46 PM

I wish I could remember who explained the cause of the "dirty river" to me but he said it was caused by the water upstream having run through peat marshes for centuries. The first settlement in the area was at the intersection of the two rivers. Because the Poddle was dark and the Liffey clear, it caused a black pool to be a feature of the spot. The name of the settlement, Dublin, came as a description of that black pool.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 19 - 10:15 AM

Not a witch, a mom, who stabs the baby. Love this song.