Chord Search Help - help on figuring out chords

Subject: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: BigDaddy
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:34 AM

I'm sure you all know the old story about if you give a man a fish you feed him for the day and if you teach him to fish he can feed himself until he can't stand the sight or smell of fish. Well, something like that. Anyroad, I'm tired of asking for chords for songs. I can usually easily pick out the tune on my guitar but I don't know how to convert this to chords. There are always songs for which I need chords, so if anyone can help me figure out chords for myself I can quit asking for help and do it myself. I assume there must be a way to do this. Just as a fr'instance, if I want the chords for Fairport Convention's recording of "Reynardine," and I have the recording and can sing and pick out the tune, how do I progress from this to finding the chords? Help!

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: s&r
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:54 AM

crude way of finding chords that work

1. Find the key (usually the last note, or the one that the tune feels happy to finish on).

2. Play the major chord (I) on that note.

3. Sing the song slowly while playing the chord - when it sounds crap, play the V chord - continue till that sounds crap, and change back to I

4. When both sound crap, try the IV chord

this works crudely for songs that aren't minor or modal. It won't give the best chords but it will give you practice at finding them.

Stu

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: pavane
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:28 AM

Or use my program HARMONY, which can add chords to tunes - that was it's main objective. HARMONY also understands Modal tunes (if you tell it in the key signature)

If you have the tune as an abc file of a simple MIDI, just load it up and select the option to generate chords

Download from www.greenhedges.com

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: pavane
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:31 AM

That should read abc file OR MIDI, of course

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: pavane
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:34 AM

Also, if you have a full performance on MIDI, I have another program which will tell you what chords are actually being played. And you can find plenty of MIDI files on the net.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: GUEST,Slickerbill
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:19 PM

I went for many a year doing what you're doing BigDaddy. The key is to learn the notes on your fret board if you haven't already. I would learn all the note on all the strings to at least the fifth fret, and then all the notes on the 5th and 6th strings from 0 to the 12th fret.

Now as you listen to the song, first find the key as suggested above by just trying to find that note on the fretboard; that's your tonic and that's your main chord. If as you play the chord to the song it sounds off, try the minor or the seventh chord. Then listen for when the change in the tune calls for a new note/chord and so on.

The easiest way to learn tons of chords, aside from the basic open ones, is to learn the barr chords rooted on the 8th and 5th frets (at least for starters) So for example the open E shape barred at whatever note on the sixth string renders twelve major chords. Pick up your pinkey and you've got twelve seventh chords. Pick up the middle finger and you've got twelve minor chords. Pick up both the pinkey and the middle fingers and there you have twelve minor seventh chords. And remember, that's just the 6th string.

Hope that helps. There are lots of web sites but a good book might also be of some help I like Ralph Denyer's "Guitar Players' Handbook". Good luck. sb

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: BigDaddy
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 10:52 PM

Thank you all. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. Cheers.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: Mark Clark
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 11:21 PM

With practice, over time, your ear will learn to tell you what the changes are, even for a tune you've never played before. Much of the traditionally based music most of us enjoy has a very simple chord structure. With a little practice, you'll be anticipating chords with great accuracy and finding the proper key will be a second nature.

One way to speed up the process is to become the regular backup guitarist for an accomplished and active fiddler. At first you'll have to memorize the changes and learn to associate the changes with the tunes and their variants. But after a while, you'll find yourself successfully accompanying tunes you've never heard before on the first chorus. You may need to adapt your playing to please the fiddler but the ear training you'll get will make it well worthwhile.

It also helps to learn to think of chords as numbers (I, IV, V, VII, etc.) rather than their actual names. That makes it easier to translate progressions into other keys. There's been a lot of discussion on this over the years. The site map and PermaThread index should help you find some of them.

      - Mark


 

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 May 06 - 09:34 AM

This has been one of my alltime favorite threads since reading s&r's post above. I do 99% of the arranging for our gospel band, from my 21-chord autoharp. When I've done our songbooks, there have always been a few songs in each one that I think of as the "pesky" songs-- where the chord structure is just beyond my grasp.

My husband and co-bandleader has lots of music theory, but he's so busy that I prefer to chase down solutions myself. In doing that, I often return to an extension of s&r's method. Using it has taught me how to approach new genres and sounds, many times.

Right now I have a dozen "pesky" songs I've always loved and wanted our band to present, all loaded on my new MP3 player to hear until I am sick of them. I am convinced they all have something in common chordally that, once solved, will unlock LOTS of songs our band can do really well.

So thanks, s&r!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: Nick
Date: 23 May 06 - 05:58 AM

Have you got examples of the pesky ones?

Or is part of the fun being stuck, and the achievement getting unstuck yourself?

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: pavane
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:41 AM

S&R's method should also work in minor keys and modes, provided that you know when to substitute minor chords instead of the major ones.

And preferably don't use any 7ths in the modal ones.

For example, in Dorian mode on D (Scarborough Fair is Dorian)

I = Dm
IV = G
V = Am

Unfortunately, each mode is different!

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:46 AM

http://www.xs4all.nl/~hippy/xp/
Do a Google search with the word "Chords" followed by the tile of the song you want. This will usually produce several results. You can also use the word "Tabs" for your search. If you wish to sing the song in a different key use the URL above to transpose it to your required key. Just one word of caution - sometimes you will find songs submittied by "three chord merchants" who mean well but will not be accurate .

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:56 AM

The transposer above is easy to use. Simply "drag" the document showing the chords into the "box". Enter the original key and the key you wish to tranpose to. You have the choice of seeing the results in "letter" or "chord diagram" format. The site also includes a very useful guitar chord finder.

Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: REYNARDINE
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 06 - 07:05 AM

REYNARDINE

Intro: Dm, C, Am, Dm

    Dm          C       G                  Dm
One evening as I rambled among the springing tide.
Dm                  C    Am                  Dm
I overheard a young woman converse with Reynardine.
    Dm                  C                   G             Dm
Her hair was black, her eyes were blue, her lips were ruby wine.
Dm                         C                Am             Dm
And he smiled as he looked upon her, did the sly, bold Reynardine.

She said, ?Young man be civil, my company forsake.
For to my own opinion, I fear you are some rake.?
?Oh no I am no rake,? he cired, brought up n Venus Train.
But I?m searching for concealment all from the judges men.
----------Said Reynardine

Her rosy cheeks and ruby lips, they lost their former dye.
As she fell into his arms, all on the mountainside.
They had not kissed but once or twice when she came too again.
And so modestly she asked him, ?Oh pray tell me your name.?
-----------Reynardine

If by chance you look for me, by chance you?ll not me find.
For I?ll be in my green castle, enquire for Reynardine.
Day and night she followed him. His teeth so white did shine.
And he led her over the mountains did the sly, bold, Reynardine.

You might not like the 'G' Chord in the Verse, but Am should work as well.
The original's on mandocello or bazouki or something but it can work fine on
guitar, especially if you use all bar chords.

Here are the chords of Reynardine located by above search process at Tabworld.

IF I HAVE BROKEN SOME RULE BY DRAGGING THIS DOCUMENT FROM THE TABWORLD SITE PLEASE RECTIFY THE MATTER BY DELETING THIS ENTRY

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 May 06 - 09:51 AM

The "pesky" ones are all old, obscure gospel pieces.

~S~

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:58 PM

A further trick: play the melody. then harmonize the notes on the strong beats(generally first and third counts in 4) and that'll tell you which bass note to drop in--and give you your chord.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 May 06 - 07:17 PM

Hardi is also a big help when he brings his bass downstairs for a little arrange-a-thon. He can intuit a couple of good bass notes to try and we can extrapolate chords from there-- based on whether it "sounds crap."

~S~

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: Gary T
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:35 PM

It's helpful to become familiar with common chord progressions - and the linked site even has one labeled gospel chord progression (although I disagree with their nomenclature "the IV chord of the IV chord" - this is normally called the bVII [flatted seventh] chord). It's can also be very helpful to become familiar with the circle (or cycle) of fifths, which relates nicely to said progressions. s&r has dipped a toe in the water here for I-IV-V progressions, but as you've seen that doesn't cover all the bases. The concept becomes much more valuable when you have more progressions in mind to work with.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:40 PM

Gary, I'll gladly take a look, but..... WHICH kind of goepel do you suppose they mean? There are so many types, each with their own sound and chord peregrinations.

Black Gospel? Southern? Bluegrass? Mountain? Polka Gospel?

~S~

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: Gary T
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:04 PM

You got me, Susan (is that right?). Before I saw that site, I didn't even know there was anything called a "gospel chord progression," much less that there might be different types.

Another approach I have used is somewhat tedious, but perhaps quicker than sorting through various possible progressions. It's trying all the chords that are typically used in a given key. In a rough order of popularity, for the key of C, they are:

C, F, G7, G, C7, Am, Dm, Em, D/D7, A/A7, E/E7, Bb, F7, Fm, Ab, Eb.

I'm not so sure in minor keys, but this should be a good start for Am:

Am, E/E7, Dm, G, C, F.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: s&r
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:48 PM

My 'system' wasn't so much a progression as identifying the chords which contain the melody notes, hence harmonise.'I' contains I III V ; 'V' contains II V VII (add IV for a V7 chord) and 'IV' contains I IV VI. The idea of my (crude) approach is that one of the three chords will sound OK with the melody note.

Everything that has been said above is pretty accurate; however, I felt that the simple approach is the best starting point.

The strategy I usually suggest next for awkward chords is to look at the notes in the bar, and try to find a chord that contains them all, or if not that contains the first and third beats.

Sometimes when you find the right chord, it doesn't seem to have a reason to be right - it just is.

Glad you found the original suggestion useful Susan

Stu

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 May 06 - 09:35 PM

Gary-- that site has heavy jazz/blues emphasis, so when I play through the gospel progressions it won't surpoise me it they go that blues/black gospel direction-- I'll get back to you! :~)

Re: trying all the chords that are typically used in a given key Oh yes, I do that, so the pesky songs are the ones where that doesn't work because some genius tunewriter has done some devilishly creative thing I suspect is common to their usual idiom-- and that's the missing link. WHERE do they go when they leave the jkey and are STILL not really ,modulating!?!?!

--------------

Stu,

What was helpful was exactly what you are now emphasizing-- that the ear is the best judge. I have 21 chords on autoharp to choose from, so trying different ones on an autoharp is not too hard to do, and I have a GREAT ear.

Having a submenu to narrow the detective work is a big help too, though, so I am going to play through the chord progressions at the site Gary linked above, just to train the ear to be quicker on the draw. Like, hear the progressions and let them tell me what song they go with, that I have well embedded in my head already. ANd I may discover ust the two chords I LACK and can make to rteplace the ones I bever use-- or maybe those nver-used chords are just tyhe ones I need and I haven't learned that yet! :~) (Just kidding-- of course I tried those first.)

I also loved what is not a common experinece in my part of the US-- "sounds crap." I found it so straightfoward, it cut through the theoretical that I know is really important to people, and for good reason-- but I'm an expoeriential type learner. I have to hear it first and then backtrack to the esoteric theory, for theory to make much sense to me and becaome usable. So "try XXX and see if it sounds crap" is a GREAT encouragement to me.

In addition to all the help in this thread, I also got a great offer by PM to MP3 soneone a song for him and a pal to scope out for me. I sure wish we could post soiund files here to have a group-study approach. I'd love to play through ALL of everyone's ideas and my own, to see what might develop. I mean, I'm a pretty good arranger when it comes to regular monor and major tunes, and micing major and mo=inor in for shifts in emphasis. But it's alwasy fun to try someone else's idea of a song.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 04:02 PM

I would have like to add this link to the thread on origins of Reynardine or the one requesting information on Reynardine. Both are closed, I know not why.

Rhinordine http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-Rhinordine.html suggests the song is not so old.

"Although usually called 'Reynardine' by Folk Revival singers, the common title of this piece in tradition is 'Rinordine' and under that title it is Laws P15. Laws lists versions from Arkansas, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Vermont, and West Virginia, as well as Nova Scotia. He also lists assorted broadsheets and songsters. Interestingly, only one version from Britain is known.

The above version is unusual in that it lacks the ending in which Rinordine disappears, leaving the girl to warn others against the mysterious (supernatural?) figure.

Despite its British 'look,' it seems likely that the Broadway version mentioned by Lyle is in fact the original, or nearly, and that all the traditional versions derive from that."

Subject: RE: Chord Search Help - help on figuring out chords
From: maeve
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 06:45 AM

Hello Felipa. I suggest you send a PM to Joe Offer, requesting his help in joining your post to one or both Reynardine threads. It won't be easily found in this quite unrelated thread.