BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........

Subject: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 07:19 PM

Well, I've been renovatin' a house by day and have had the radio on listenin' to the 9/11 Cimmission and have heard just about all of it and one thing has become very apparent. There are some questions that aren't going to be asked. Oh sure, they've had to ask the ones that have made the conspiracy rumor boards, like about the Saudi airliner allowed in to scoop up some of bin Laden's family of why John Aschroft was told to not use commercial flights just prior to 9/11.

But, IM(most)HO, this panel doesn't have a bigger view in askin', "Just why the heck are these folks so pissed off at us?"

Or, "Well, if intellegence is so important why have we driv4en such a wedge with the For-Us/Against-Us which has done lots of damage to our ability to buddy up to folks to collect intellegence?"

Or, "Is rattin' out our own CIA operatives going to help us collect intellegence in the future?"

Hey, these seem to me to be thoughfull, intellegent questions and I'm concerned that the Commisssion has allready come up with their conslusions and is manipulating the preceedings to arrive at there preset place...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 07:22 PM

Well, it's obvious that Southern women are more attractive than... wait -- have I got the wrong thread again?

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 07:36 PM

Okay, Strick.... Now walk into yer bathroom, open the medicine cabinet and take the little shite pill in the bottle that says "Take as needed for knotheadedness"....

Jus' funnin'... Like what's up. You like this thread? No? Sorry...Go back to the babe's thread. Some purdy womenz in it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 07:37 PM

Sorry, make that "white" pill... Freudian slip...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 07:43 PM

Just taking the obvious opportunity to play on your reaction to a post on that other thread. Comedy may be mostly timing, but opportunity is important, too.

In answer to your other question, no, I don't see that the Commission was charged with answering the questions you ask. Then too, some of them are a bit odd.

"Or, 'Well, if intellegence is so important why have we driv4en such a wedge with the For-Us/Against-Us which has done lots of damage to our ability to buddy up to folks to collect intellegence?'"

You see, the people we're most interested in collecting intelligence on are the guys we think like us least. What you observe is true in all of the best examples. Of course, even our best friends get a little ticked off when they think we're spying on them.

I'll leave getting real answers to your "intellegent" questions to you, though.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:12 PM

Is the 9/11 Commission a ship? Triple master? If so, she has to be rigged. HA HA

Got my evil chuckle for the day. Thanks, Bobert.

Strick, you're right. It's in the timing. No applause necessary. No kudos. It's OK. Thank you. I knew the thought was there.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:14 PM

Post number seven!!

Thank you for making a young ferret very happy

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:17 PM

You don't get useful answers if you don't ask the relevant questions. Here's what I'd like to know:

How did WTC Building 7 get destroyed? It wasn't hit by anything.

What happened to the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon?

A flight attendant reported the hijacking of the first plane, and kept speaking on her cell phone until it smashed into the tower 20 minutes later. Another 17 minutes later the second plane hit. Why were no jets scrambled to shoot them down?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:23 PM

Okay, Strick, this is gonna take a quantum leap fir ya so ya better fasten yer seat belt.... but....

...rather than paint Saddam as a bad guym why not have resurrected a relationship with him? Hey, send his good buddt Donnie Rumsfeld over with a gold plated M-16 and couple boxes of Girl Scout cookies, shmooozed him just like the last time thew US needed him and then gottn a few CIA folks into Iraq who looked and sounded just like other Iragis?

Hey, Strick, get up off the floor. Ain't that farfetched ot funny. I could have been done... Yeah, it could have been done. Might of fact, if Saddam was such a threat to the survival of mankind then he coulda gone fir a walk in the Tigris River with his cement boots on fir that matter...

Advantages:

1. No war...

2. No instability...

3. No international ill-will toward the US...

4. Lots of intellegence opportunities...

Disadvantages:

1. US seen as buddying up to bad guys... (Oh, how scarey. We've never done that before, have we?)

2. None

Bobert

p.s. Pro-action is infanitely better than reaction. The 9/11 Comission is 100% reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

" ...rather than paint Saddam as a bad guym why not have resurrected a relationship with him?"

I see what you mean. Problem is it's a little like a woman going back to an abusive husband. What makes you sure you could trust him this time? Even by comparison to what you think of Bush, Saddam's one of the biggest weasels since Hitler. I'm tired of Hitler comparisons too, but IMHO I'm not exaggerating.

It's like the people who argue Saddam was finally starting to cooperate with weapons inspectors at the 11 hour. People who think he was really cooperating after all the times he tried to pull a fast one have never had a teenager promise they'd clean up their room tomorrow. It's always tomorrow and after a while you have to quite listening to what they say and look hard at what they're actually doing, whether there's real progress or more foot dragging. He proved he was an untrustworthy weasel so many times only a fool would have believed him once more.

And, yeah, I know it sounds odd, but I sorta like putting the evil tyrant down for once. All the crap we take because the US has propped up people just as bad all over the world and the one time we do something right, we catch even more crap for it. Figgers.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:44 PM

When you sleep with the Devil, you shouldn't be surprised to have the Devil's child.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM

Well, Strick, look at the laternatives. Yer guy may loose the next selection, in spite ot Diebold, becuase of it. Ahhhh, not that I like yer guy, but you know that allready but...

... as long as the US needed Saddam he was a ready and willing participant. We quit him becuase we didn't need Irag anymore. Not vice versa. He has always been a team player when he was on the team. When he took Kuwait he thought he'd gotten an okay wink from Bush I ot he wouldn't have done it... Hey, I ain't no Saddam aplogist but most of the evil stuff he;s done has been done with the US's knowledge and approval... Oh yeah, way after the fact, like in the gassing of the Kurds, a new administration uses this as a rammin rod of public opinion but bottom lihne, after he gassed the Kurds, Donnie Rumsfeld presented him with presents from the US governemnt??? Go figure....

So I'm sticken with the premise that if the US is gonna do better intellegece then it's gonna have to get a little closer to the enemy. Can't rememebre who said it but stayin' close to yer enemy is more importamt than being close to yer friends.....

Jus' food for thought.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:03 PM

"So I'm sticken with the premise that if the US is gonna do better intellegece then it's gonna have to get a little closer to the enemy."

OK, but given we've put it where the sun don't shine, I don't think he could stand us any closer, do you? Taking you up on your suggestion, I could direct you to any number of people who'd like to get really cozy with Ben Laden. Suggestions on how we should proceed?

The part I'm less comfortable with (I'm a boy scout, I know) is the assumption that once we get close we can put a .22 to the back of their head (or a cruise missle as the circumstance warrant) and look for our next "best friend". People will talk.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: flattop
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:53 PM

In a way, Bobert, you've avoided the direct question yourself. Instead of complaining about the commission, you could start a simple thread "Why are these folks so pissed off at us?"

Then you could consider if being respectful to more people might have better results than shooting at them or buddying up to collect intellegence. Make that a rhetorical you, not personal you.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:56 PM

Well, danged, Srrick. Look at what we;ve gotten with "hot war" thinkin'??? Lots o' folks kilt making lots more enmemies. There ain't no perfect world here. Jus' a matter of lessers of evils. I'm lookin' at 700 Americans killed, 20,000 serrouiosly wopunded, 15,000 Iragia killed and another 30,000 seriously wounded and mje and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule have figgured out that we's have done better buddying up...

As to yer thoughts that "offin'" folks will get around? Yer right. Hey, you are right. Keep 'um' 'round and work 'um till they drop of high colesterol. Workd fir me, jus' fine. Plues, saves 25 cents on the bullet...

Jus funnin'... Kinda... But in this screwed up world where nuthin' seems to make sense, we gonna have to think way out side the box to survive with any assmbelence of freedom so we're just gonna have to adapt... Hot wars ain't adaptin'... They're reactin'... Ane they ain't gonna get us thru these times...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:58 PM

Yer entirely correct, flattop...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: flattop
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 10:53 PM

So why don't you start that thread?

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 06:41 AM

Re. Buddying up to Saddam.

This comes out of the perception that "he" was "our" man and that the regime of Saddam Hussein and the US have been on excellent terms for years.

Of course all that is complete and utter BS. Iraq broke off diplomatic relations with the USA after the 1967 Six-Day War - they were never restored, that's kind of odd for countries who are supposed to be such good friends.

The assistance given to Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war, as well as the assistance given to Iran during that conflict, was limited and given to ensure that NEITHER side won. The US were not alone in feeling and acting that way, many more countries were invloved in this balancing act.

Operating under the UN Charter it is well nigh impossible to interfere with the domestic situation in any member state unless you are specifically invited to do so. It is one of the major failings of the UN and the main reason why the UN can never function as many here would seem to want it to.

Looking at Bobert's Advantages/Disadvantages with regard to buddying up to Saddam:

Advantages (as perceived by Bobert):

1. No war...
At least not just now. You would still have Saddam in place and at some point in time you would have to lift sanctions. Only my opinion of course, I believe that there would be a confrontation further down the line. Remember the Iran/Iraq war mentioned above, Saddam chose to start that because the Iranians were prepared to negotiate a settlement of the Shat-al-Arab question. Saddam took that willingness to negotiate as a sign of weakness that he thought he could exploit. The US would still be the declared target of Al-Qaeda and others. Now while Al-Qaeda might not "buddy-up" to Saddam if he were still in power, the others might not be so selective, particularly if the groups arrayed against the US get into some form of pissing contest for who is the most fundamental of the fundamentalists.

2. No instability...
Perhaps not in Iraq in the short term. You would definitely have continued instability in the region, for Saddam Hussein, last of the great pan-arabists, it was essential to keep the Palestine/Israeli situation as volatile as possible. As a result US support for Israel would have to increase and in doing that Saddam's purpose gleans the catch-crop of keeping Al-Qaeda and other such groups on America's case - Saddam just sits back and laughs, America, America's interests and American citizens are no safer than they are now.

3. No international ill-will toward the US...
There has always been international ill-will and envy felt towards the US for as long as I can remember. In the Jimmy Carter days it was ill-will and envy combined with contempt, you still have the ill-will and the envy but the US is treated with a damn sight more respect subsequent to 9/11; Afghanistan and Iraq.

4. Lots of intellegence opportunities...
Now where those would actually come from, or present themselves? Dissaffected Iraqi's? Hardly you have just, more-or-less, inadvertantly declared Saddam as the winner of the 1991 Gulf War. They are going to come to you to do something about their situation - No bloody chance.

Disadvantages:

1. US seen as buddying up to bad guys... (Oh, how scarey. We've never done that before, have we?)

Quite right Bobert nobody would give a seconds thought to it, however, as previously stated, Saddam and most of the Arab world would view this approach as a sign of weakness - you'd be back to the good ol' Jimmy Carter days ill-will + contempt, no-one however would envy the US.

2. None
So apart from that one point you mention regarding what the "world" would think of the US buddying up to bad guys there are no disadvantages?

Hmmmmm - Don't think you have thought this through Bobert, or realised just how much the world changed on 9/11 - You were probably too busy complaining about spilt milk - the 2000 election result - to get your head round the fact that your country and your way of life had just come under the hammer.

Oh and Bobert, your p.s. Commissions of Inquiry are normally 100% reaction. You can hardly constitute a Commission of Inquiry and call it to look into something that has not yet happened.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 09:26 AM

On shooting down civilian airliners.

I don't know of any hijacked plane that was shot down, intercepted, escorted, yes, but shot down, no.

NORAD has various interceptor stations on 15 minutes alert, so timimg could be a bit tight.

Don Firth did a PING and PONG thing on this in another thread. After reading through the links I came to the conclusion that it prompted more questions than it attempted to answer. Apparently there were fighter aircraft up at the time and the articles went to great length on their interception speeds. No information was given on:
- reason for flight
- how long they had been up.
- Fuel state
- were there tanker aircraft airborne
- armament
- What stations were at "Alert" status, what ones weren't

the list of questions goes on and on before you arrive at anything closely resembling what the picture was that morning.

On the speed thing the article mentioned the maximum speed of the aircraft, but did not go on to explain that the maximum speed was that of the aircraft on full re-heat, it did not go on to explain that that particular feature of an aircraft's performance can only be used for seconds as it tends to burn one hell of a lot of fuel.

But I too expected something to come out about that feature of the events of that particular day.

Oh yes, the day Berger, Clarke and Tenet appeared they did establish the facts relating to the only plane allowed into US airspace on the 12th September. The flight was made at the request of the Saudi Government either through the State Department or White House Staff. The FBI apparently were asked if they wanted to question any of the passengers and they said no, so the aircraft was given clearance.

Subject: RE: BS: 9/11 Commission Rigged???...........
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

For questions that should have been explored, how about this comment The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer11 December 2002 :

>>GWEN IFILL: Are you suggesting that you are convinced that there was a state sponsor behind 9/11?

>>SEN. BOB GRAHAM: I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government and that we have been derelict in our duty to track that down, make the further case, or find the evidence that would indicate that that is not true and we can look for other reasons why the terrorists were able to function so effectively in the United States.

For the full interview--The News Hour