BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:15 AM

"I'm curious, Teribus, what is the effect upon your opinion of the standard and calibre of British soldiers?"

Not a simple question to answer. Of soldiers 'A' & 'B' mentioned in my post, Wellington's description seems quite applicable with regard to standard and calibre. These two individuals seem to have deliberately staged photographs, with the intent of making some cash on the side, knowing full well the damage that publication of those photographs would cause. No wonder they wish to remain anonymous, I certainly wouldn't want to be in their boots when they returned to their unit. For the sake of a few quid they have greatly endangered the lives of all their mates and all those serving in Iraq - That, particularly the first bit, you just do not do.

As I said previously, it makes no difference at all now, if it is shouted from the roof-tops by the individuals concerned that these photographs are fakes - not a single person in the Arab world would believe them.

I'd stick the pair of them back out in Iraq and assign them to foot patrol in Basra, then let the world and his dog know that these were the guys in the photographs - a lie? Yes, but what the hell, they seem to have no scruples about disseminating false information. Now should they then be captured/abducted or whatever, they could then compare notes on how they are treated and then possibly wonder why.

In general I have a fairly high opinion of the standard and calibre of the members of Britains armed forces, situation by situation, and, unit for unit, it might vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:34 AM

Soldiers 'A' and 'B' required photgraphs of "abuse" in order to pocket the £10,000 the "Daily Mirror" offered them for their "story".

Does nothing but reinforce my extremely low opinion of the standard and calibre of British journalists (Teribus)

I'm curious, Teribus, what is the effect upon your opinion of the standard and calibre of British soldiers?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:09 AM

I see that they are still peddling those photographs of the "Iraqi" being "abused" by the QLR, even although it is becoming increasingly more apparent that those "shots" were faked, staged in a British Army TA Hall back in the UK. Soldiers 'A' and 'B' required photgraphs of "abuse" in order to pocket the £10,000 the "Daily Mirror" offered them for their "story".

Does nothing but reinforce my extremely low opinion of the standard and calibre of British journalists:

Editor to Journalist - "The Yanks are being blasted for abusing prisoners. Toddle up to Lancs, poke around and bring me back a story about our lads doing the same."

Journalist to Editor - "Fair enough, what's the budget, and what are the expenses."

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:51 AM

DougR, get a grip on reality. Bush (and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rove and Rice, etc.) in his rush to let his rich friends get richer has trumped up charges and attempted to conquer a nation with huge oil reserves. This has NOTHING to do with the events of September 11, 2001 and NOTHING to do with "weapons of mass destruction." Can you try to understand that?

You need to understand that he had no business invading Afghanistan OR Iraq and that the two have nothing to do with each other. Clinton may not have finished off Saddam after Bush Sr. pulled out, but he kept him contained. The rest of it wasn't our business--if fixing the world is our business, then we should be doing something about the Sudan right now, but not a peep there from Dubya. (Why go there? There's no oil.) Do you understand that Bush has made himself and this country the most hated nation in the world right now, and that many of us hate being put in this position, being associated with this fool? In his rush to send in troops he sent over numbers of people without training and without supervision who have in essence waved a match into the gas fumes over Iraq. They have severely complicated the lives of the rest of the troops who are there. I don't know about you, but my association with folks in Iraq is through the Army Corps of Engineers. A lot of them from this Southwest district are over in Iraq now--my ex husband was the one who processed many of their papers. That whole office is holding it's collective breath in the face of this juggernaut that Bush has unleashed. What's your story?

I am horribly offended by his actions in the name of Americans like myself, and I find him to be small and petty and stupid. I'm offended that the supreme court appointed him to office, and I don't care if Bill Clinton screwed a hundred interns, the difference between Clinton's ability to THINK and the doofus that Bush is is embarrassingly obvious.

Bush and his group need to be put on trial for war crimes.

The tornados, on the other hand, were probably generated by a blowhard like you.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:31 AM

Don't be a dam fool Doug.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:23 AM

I have it on pretty good authority that GWB does not eat cereal for breakfast, SRS. He eats a healthy breakfast of biscuits, cream gravy, scrambled eggs and country ham. Blaming GWB for what happened is typical of you of course. There were tornados in Colorado last night. I suppose he caused them too, right? Geeze.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:06 AM

New York Times photo of Nick Berg's father getting the news of his son's death. Comforted by his other son. I think the grief in this is as real as the photograph. No PhotoShop needed.

Too bad George Bush doesn't read newspapers, or he might choke on his breakfast cereal if he happened to glance toward the Times photo tomorrow at breakfast.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:18 PM

"My belief..., is that there was a conscious decision to leave a link to a disturbing pornographic image in the thread, because people are so powerfully attracted to the titillation factor some will get from viewing it"

I may be wrong, but I'm trying to think who (if any) here, on Mudcat, would be 'titillated' by such images?
The theory is as unproveable as the existence of WMDs, IMO.

I don't mind the link being there (I don't mind it not being there, either), but I have no reason (or desire) to make it an issue.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:42 PM

An NPR reported described the video of the gruesome death of that American businessman. Was anyone listening to the story? He's from Westchester, PA. Same place that Mudcat originates. Small world, eh?

Now I've had more than enough news for the day. I'm turning off the computer, turning off the radio, and am going to listen to some music or maybe watch a movie with the kids. If I don't, I'll end up curled in a depressed huddle. I thought this morning's talk with the kids was on a horrible subject. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:35 PM

First, photographs and images being manipulated, changed, etc for effect is as old as the technology. It is a technology open to extreme manipulation because images have such power over our emotions.

So sure Jim, it would be great if everyone could or would figure out for themselves which of the photographs is fake, and which aren't. Except they don't, which is how and why this shit gets circulated to begin with--there are people in this thread who immediately reacted to the fake photograph as if it were real, including Mr. Happy who first posted the link.

It isn't just Iraqis who have difficulty distinguishing the real from the fake.

I'm not voyeuristic either. But I'm also realistic enough to know that many people want to see MORE of these photos, not less, because there is a very real titillation factor involved in their dissemination. Disturbing images of graphic violence is every bit as pornographic and obscene as disturbing images of graphic sex is. When you combine the two, there is a real danger of losing sight of what it is we initially needed to view the photographs for, which was to verify "with our own eyes" what had transpired, because of the power of the warrior hero myth over the majority of our civil society right now.

We also know that in a democratic society, we have to see the photographs, so we can begin to turn the tide, and prevent the atrocity level from growing and growing exponentially on the ground in Iraq.

Does keeping a link in Mudcat to an obviously shady website which blurs the lines so obviously help us do that? Remember, no one is preventing anyone from seeing the image linked to that is being objected to here. Anyone who wants to can, as Lepus Rex rightly pointed out, find those images anytime, anywhere on the internet.

So the judgment call is, does Mudcat want to provide links to that sort of shit? Apparently, the answer is yes. It serves no useful purpose to the discussion, because it is misinformation at it's worst.

And like I said, it wouldn't even be an issue if the most innocuous things get censored at Mudcat all the time. It does beg the question, why leave this link in? My belief, and no one will change my mind about it, is that there was a conscious decision to leave a link to a disturbing pornographic image in the thread, because people are so powerfully attracted to the titillation factor some will get from viewing it. Joe's decision to leave it in, even after the person who innocently posted it came back and said they were wrong about it, says this is about Joe's power over that pornographic image, and not about "what's best and for the good of all."

This isn't anything newsworthy about the image, Jim. It is old military porn, being recycled to extend it's internet shelf life. By leaving the link here, Joe is choosing to help that happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:40 PM

I think we are in the era, now, where we cannot tell with 100% certainty that any 'image' we see is genuine....
This wave of photgraph releases I'm sure, will give the 'morphers' more material to work with, and I think we have to accept that.

The Pentagon, however has admitted that there is 'worse to come', (they are not putting too much emphasis on alleged 'doctored' images), so in a way whereas any photograph or, for that matter, video we see from now on, can have it's authenticity questioned, we have to keep in mind that the Pentagon has confirmed photographs like these ones, exist.
In which case, at the very least, the photographs from the site above can be viewed as 'representations' of the images Rumsfeld has already alluded to; though in fairness, one of the women in one of the 'rape' scenes does look decidedly 'oriental'.

The taking of the photographs in the first place (the real ones, I mean), or the making of 'home-made' porn, and snuff movies, has set in motion a chain of events where everything from security within the prison (in that, for one, images could be 'smuggled out') to issues regarding who condoned or, perhaps, ordered the human rights abuses that the photographs and video have been admitted as having represented, is being (or should be in the process of being) scrutinised in a lot more detail. And that, I believe is the 'good' that can come out of this.

I know that I have no intention of 'flicking' through every 'photograph' that comes out of Iraq from now on; I'm not voyeuristic, and in any case, the damage has already been done by the first revelations. Everything that gets circulated now, will have it's authenticity questioned. The internet is out there, ladies and gentlemen. It's authenticity is always brought into question.
Just as we filter out what we see and hear in the mass media, on a daily basis, I'm sure most of us have a capacity for healthy scepticism, when it comes to 'information' relayed to us via the internet.

Thankfully no-one yet has taken it upon themselves to cut certain sections of my morning newspaper out, before I get a chance to disregard the information that might have been there, myself, and if we are all 'people of the World' here, I think we all can be given the benefit of the doubt that we can seperate the 'genuine' from the 'suspect', to a certain degree.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:37 PM

Yeah, SRS, and even though the "rape" photos are fake, they've already been distributed throughout the middle east, and peasants with no knowledge of such things as rape-fantasy porn or Photoshop have them pinned to their hut walls, so the damage is done.

Just to be a glass-full kind of guy: The fake photos might blunt the impact/violent backlash when the real rape photos are released? Nahhh...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:26 PM

An additional obscenity is the testimony of Taguba, that only the enlisted men and women reservists (and on up the chain of command to their female BG who is refusing to be scapegoated and has been talking to the press) were involved. Right.

That sworn testimony directly contradicts the International Red Cross report. It also directly contradicts what has already leaked out to the press from "anonymous Pentagon sources" about the same practices being used, by Pentagon order, in Guantanamo and Afghanistan.

So who is lying?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:12 PM

El Greko, if censorship never happened here at Mudcat I would be in complete agreement with your position on censorship. That just isn't the case here though, as people's posts get censored pretty regularly.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:52 PM

Rumsfeld and Taguba and others have warned that there is "worse to come."

From one web site, following L.Rex's suggested search, says:

A WND investigation has revealed that most of the photos are taken from the American pornographic website "Iraq Babes," and the Hungarian site, "Sex in War," which is linked to by the American site. Both websites are linked to by violent pornography sites and both describe Iraqi women -- played by "actresses" -- in vulgar terms.

Yeah, sure, they're "actresses" (wink, wink).

From another site, dated May 6, as this story was breaking:

Photos of an Iraqi woman raped by U.S. occupation soldiers in a desert area make intensive circulation on websites these days, adding to shockwaves of "immoral and brutal practices" of U.S.-led occupation forces against Iraqi prisoners.

The identities of the woman being raped and the western-looking males in military outfit have yet to be verified.

The photos surfaced only few days after western newspapers published some photos that revealed the inhumane and torturous practices of the U.S. soldiers against Iraqi prisoners.

Western newspapers published other photos that show the immoral crimes perpetrated against Iraqi detainees, including urinating on them and taking off all their clothes. Such photos have led to a wave of fury spreading all over the world.

From Pitt's essay The War is Lost that Ebbie directed us to in another thread:

We are awash in photographs of Iraqi men - not terrorists, just people - lying in heaps on cold floors with leashes around their necks. We are awash in photographs of men chained so remorselessly that their backs are arched in agony, men forced to masturbate for cameras, men forced to pretend to have sex with one another for cameras, men forced to endure attacks from dogs, men with electrodes attached to them as they stand, hooded, in fear of their lives.

The worst, amazingly, is yet to come. A new battery of photographs and videotapes, as yet unreleased, awaits over the horizon of our abused understanding. These photos and videos, also from the Abu Ghraib prison, are reported to show U.S. soldiers gang raping an Iraqi woman, U.S. soldiers beating an Iraqi man nearly to death, U.S. troops posing, smirks affixed, with decomposing Iraqi bodies, and Iraqi troops under U.S. command raping young boys.

Actually, whether or not a few of these photos are fake isn't the point. There are going to be people who would try to push it all aside, suggesting that all of it is fake, based on a few with muddy antecedents. And like that senator this morning who suggested that what Saddam did was so much worse that this is no big deal.

It's obscene that American soldiers and their followers have had to go to Iraq at all. It's obscene to conduct maneuvers like this in Iraq and call it justifiable. It sounds like a difficult place under the best of conditions and hellish under the worst. Over 700 military have died, and today on Fresh Air a fellow from one of the Washington D.C. think tanks said probably another 50 private for-hire soldiers have died and another 300 wounded. More than 10,000 Iraqis have died so far.

Former U.S. soldier and prisoner of war in Iraq Shoshana Johnson was on Good Morning America this morning and said she was treated well and with respect during her 22 days of inprisonment last year. Only a few hours after that broadcast ABC news posted this:

CAIRO, Egypt May 11, 2004 — A video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq, and said the execution was carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers. . .

Clearly any Americans captured now are at an exponentially-worse risk than they were before.

What I said about how Americans view body parts stands. Even if "legitmate" photos of violence against women appear, as long as there are any male members present, it won't turn up on American televison. So there are always going to be somewhat clandestine places to the photos. And while America is busy trying to hide its privates, a few American soldiers have been busy, as Mary suggests, humiliating members of a very modest society. Another double standard.

The Thomas Hobbes quote from Leviathan comes to mind here, applicable to any and all in Iraq: ". . .which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."


SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:17 PM

...thing... (someone moved the "g" key)

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:17 PM

Fight! Fight! Fight! Gather round folks!
(smiling)
I doon't know Joe from Adam, but I don't like to see anybody attacked in public with accusations of being power-mad etc. My personal view is that I'd prefer Joe not to censor and trust me to be a big boy and have a vague idea of how to filter information available to me.

As to the photo: I was disgusted when I saw it, but incredulous too. I just find it hard to imagine that anyone could be so stupid as to allow themselves to be photographed in such circumstances - so I assumed that the circumstances (and probably the pictures) had been doctored. I then hung around to see what other opinions/views/info would come in, and lo! - it turns out they were fakes after all.

I am still disgusted at the photo, I think that the people actually involved in it are depraved, and the person who doctored it for misinformation evil.

But I'm a big boy. I don't go back to it (as it upsets me) and in the light of subsequent info I no longer believe its intended message.

One more think on censorship: It takes more courage and trust NOT to censor.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 02:31 PM

You are wrong again, Joe. The only links in this thread are to sites that show the photographs that appeared at the Washington Post and on 60 Minutes II, with the exception of the two links to the same "Korean" website by Mr. Happy and Guest Appalled Mudcatter.

I've checked each and every link in this thread. The original link to the photographs that was posted by me in the opening post of this thread, only went to this site because the photographs hadn't been made available at any of the news websites at the time I started the thread. I had been searching the internet for some time when I finally found the first link.

I would be fine with you removing that link as well, as all those photographs have been made widely available online, in print, and on TV.

The Korean website has some of the legitimate photographs that have appeared on conventional websites, mixed in with pornographic photographs. The original site I posted to didn't do such an unethical thing. The original site I posted to simply put them up as a public service, before the photographs were widely disseminated through news organizations.

If you had bothered to check any of this out, which isn't the least bit difficult if you've been following the story, you wouldn't be claiming what you are claiming.

The accused soldiers haven't even claimed the photographs being disseminated by legitimate news organizations are doctored, so why Joe, are you claiming they are?

Answer: as a justification not to remove the link, because you want this to be a control and power issue.

Which is bogus, but as I said, you've demonstrated this inability to remove your ego from the equation in these sorts of instances before, when you turn the dumbest ass things into needless power struggles with people who post here.

---

Oh, well. I guess I'm just a horrible person.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: mg
Date: 11 May 04 - 02:13 PM

Bob, as the above thread pointed out, these are pictures that (a)offend (way too weak a word I know) the dignity of a very proud people, with very strong modesty etc. They will be identified by their families, foes etc. regardless of pixels or whatever. These pictures will be used for filthy purposes by filthy people. If your son or daughter was stripped naked, post-rape or whatever, would you want his/her picture all over the world in a sexual pose? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:37 PM

This doesn't just apply to the one link posted by Mr. Happy. There are a number of links in this thread that lead to photos, and some of the photos appear to have been altered. I'm not able to judge which photos are accurate, and which are not. View at your own risk.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:29 PM

Another bad, arbitrary and capricious decision IMO, Joe.

Of course we are all adults. No one requested the link be removed because it offended our sensibilities. We requested it be removed, because it's violent porn being passed off as newsworthy photographs associated with the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. But it is still violent porn.

I'm guessing the reason why you are refusing to remove the link is, as usual, you want to set this up as a control issue between yourself and this anonymous guest. If a member had said I find this disturbing pornographic link very disturbing, it would have been gone in an instant.

Typical, and pathetic too. But it's your site. If you want this shit polluting Mudcat to prove you are a powerful man like the one in the photo Joe Offer, that's entirely up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:34 PM

Right you are Lepus. Mr. Happy now knows he posted a link to a site that is posting doctored porn photographs from other links on the web. Anytime I see a "korean" website in English with these kinds of photos, I automatically balk.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:27 AM

Heh, you're some easily bamboozled motherfuckers. SRS, the rape photos are fake, from a military rape-fantasy porn site, which really is kind of tacky to link to. They've been around forever, and they're not even that convincing. Check out the cheesy uniforms, and the fact that neither woman looks Iraqi, for starters. Then, search for "rape photos" on Google News, and read about it for yourself.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:20 AM

I have to point out what sad, stupid people these soldiers are who committed these acts of torture. Even the KKK had enough sense that the Klansmen wore the hoods, not the victims. I won't pretend to know what the circumstances were (were they ordered to do it, or not, were theremany of them, or few, etc) but it seems to me that taking a picture of yourself committing a crime is stupid--and it should have been obvious to them that, whatever the orders, these were criminal acts.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:16 AM

Stilly River Sage, I believe you have missed the point. The request to have the link removed has nothing to do with anyone's obsession with or aversion to men's penises or a double standard about male/female pornography.

Mr. Happy has admitted (and he is the person who originally posted the link to this particular photograph) that this photograph is likely a fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:03 AM

Guest, you reflect the sentiments of the American male-controlled media: the penis is off-limits for mainstream publication, though just about anything on a woman may appear, as long as a movie rating is in place. [this is called a double-standard] Your sensitivity doesn't do you any credit, and dulls your ability to look at those images and see what is clearly there.

It isn't pornographic in the sense that it is over-the-top sex, it is obscene in the sense that it is rape. I hope that the men whose pricks are in view torturing those women have to face charges, and that the women they abused are still alive and are able to confront their torturers.

This is such a depressing time. Thanks to George W. Bush and this obscene "war" of his I sat at breakfast with my children this morning discussing torture and rape, and how rape is so different from healthy sex. The photos are out there, and my kids at 12 and 15 need help to interpret that "news." They're healthy normal kids and images that look like "sex" are going to catch their attention. The networks play and play and play the images, and it's impossible to watch the news and void the images. And we are told a new batch is coming. The link above goes to some of those images--various angles of two separate gang rapes of two distinct Iraqi women by a group of American soldiers, may be the same men in both occasions--and those are liable to end up on tv next. I told the kids that some may not, because American men consider images of the penis off limits, so any photos with men's penises, even when they're torturing a woman, will not be shown. Anything else will appear. The women will appear with agonized expressions, as long as American (and in this instance, white) hands and penises aren't in the picture.

I didn't think it was possible to be any more disgusted with George Bush than I have been since he started his defacto personal war against the Moslem world. But he's reached a new low. He turned loose apparently untrained and unsupervised soldiers on that country who are not only brutish, they're so stupid that they take souvenir photos of themselves brutalizing Iraqis.

The radio is on. The senator just asked for Taguba his assessment of the situation. The soldiers had "no training whatsover, and a lack of supervision" he answered. Duh. Two other Pentagon officials are there and interrupt his testimony with their approved views of the war.

Another senator has come on and started his statement by complaining about these "human rights do-gooders." He suggests that because Saddam's torture was so much worse that this is nothing in comparison.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:20 AM

Yesterday I requested that the above link posted by Mr. Happy be removed. Considering that this photo hasn't been posted by a single legitimate news source in the US, Europe, Asia, Australia or anywhere else I did a quick internet search of, I think it is correct to assume this is a doctored photograph until we have evidence to the contrary.

In that light, I think the link, which is pornographic in nature (and the soldier's penis certainly looks "enhanced" shall we say?), should be removed from this website.

Typically, Joe Offer doesn't agree. This isn't a sound judgment call, as even Mr. Happy's concurs with my request that it be removed:

"Request for link in thread to be removed"

Another demonstration of why some of us feel Joe Offer's judgment is questionable at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:04 AM

"The purest treasure mortal times afford is spotless reputation.... Mine honour is my life, both grow in one; Take honour from me, and my life is done." -- Shakespeare

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:35 AM

That's a very sweeping and general indictment, guest Dwight. Having never watched the program Friends, I can't speak to it's popularity. In my circle of friends and associates the primary topic for a couple of weeks now has been the abomination of these acts as they have been revealed. And how to get rid of Dubya so someone else can begin to try to make some repairs.

There have certainly been low-points in America's worldwide reputation within the lifetime of many of us. Korea and Vietnam, for example. About the only other time in the last 100 years when the U.S. reputation was in such shreds in the world community as it is now was after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We killed a lot more there, but in this wired global village, it takes fewer deaths to acquire the same reputation.

I can see George doing the comparison now: Let's see: Hiroshima and Nagasaki, about 150,000 dead within the year after the war, but only about 10,000 Iraqi's killed so far. What a relief! Only 10,000 dead!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:18 AM

I am bemused that the website has a Korean Flag. Bush made a great fuss about 'Axis of Evil'. The subtle thing is that on the second page, there is a picture from 1950 showing US Military parading (North) Korean nurses stripped to their underwear. Only a few years before Aussie soldiers (and nurses) were similarly (and worse) mistreated by the Japanese, and the US were the 'Saviours of the World' against such horrors.

This web page is a political slap in the face for the US over the way it is behaving towards Korea, as well as the rest of the world.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Dwight
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:05 AM

what is amazing to me is that most americans were more interested in the final episode of "Friends" than the prisoner abuse. Where is the outrage. Where is the outrage over 800 soldiers dead in an illegal war. We had a lot more pressing matters like nukes being sold from pakistan to N. korea. We sure needed to stabalize the Afgan situation before going to Iraqi, which had nothing to do with 9/11 and was being contained. We could have worried about Saddam after we solved some of the other problems. I wish this president cared as much about the lives of our soldiers and Iraqi civilians as he does about the lives of stem cells and fetuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Cluin
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:07 AM

Stupid morons doing stupid things to Iraqi prisoners while other stupid morons stand around snapping pictures of it.

You better hope involvement doesn't go too high up. Doesn't say much for the intelligence of the Intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,appalled mudcatter
Date: 10 May 04 - 09:14 PM

Mr. Happy posted a link to a single image in a site that has numerous images. Some are probably what Rummy and Dubya viewed behind closed doors. http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/IraqPOW/ is the index to the image thumbnails.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:47 PM

Considering how widespread the abuse of prisoners was (ie that the CDs were being passed around in Iraq among most of the troops, mercenaries, and CIA/MI people, I'm not convinced that there isn't widespread abuses of Iraqi civilians by our troops too.

I believe the 4 mercenaries/'private contractors' tortured and killed in Faluja may well have been killed because of widespread running amok in our name by 'private contractors' and troops as well. That would make some twisted sense of the savagery of their deaths and the desecration of their bodies, and the fierceness of the siege of Falluja. Remember, we didn't allow the Iraqis to properly bury their dead during the siege. Not much was made of that, or of our siege preventing medical care, food & water, and other necessary supplies reaching the Falluja civilians in the US media, but I'm sure it was a huge deal for them, and that resulted in the fierceness of the resistance to our troops and mercenaries there.

The normal soldier's fears that becomes hatred of one's enemies is a choice, and a common one among soldiers. That hate is still to be heard when you listen to vets speak, half a century later, about their military experiences. I got a blast of it from my ex-Marine brother in law when we were discussing the prisoner abuse scandal this weekend, while we were at a memorial for some deceased family friends. That couple were both WWII vets, him Navy, her Marines. But the contrast between their acceptance and forgiveness of themselves and their "enemies" from WWII, and their conscious decision not to hate the "enemies" of the US wars then and since, became a hallmark of their lives.

OTOH, my brother-in-law, a Korean vet, is bitter and full of hate, racism, and bigotry, and spews the military propaganda lines we see so often here at Mudcat from vets. Yet, when someone challenges him for spouting the crap he was brainwashed with way back when, he does a disconnect, eyes sort of glaze over, he gets confused, mumbles, and changes the subject.

So IMO, we Americans know full well just from experiences we have had with active military people and vets we know (ie family, friends, colleagues) that there are at least two sorts of military/vets in any era, and not just this monolithic "you are with the troops/vets or against us" stereotype that the US military/government/media perpetually promotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:57 AM

http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/IraqPOW/pages/IraqGangRape.htm

---

Later note from Mr. Happy in the Help Forum:

Subject: RE: Request for link in thread to be removed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11-May-04 - 05:37 AM


In retrospect I heartily agree the link be removed, as I've found since I posted it that there's definitely doubts as to the veracity of the image.

Apologies if I offended

---

I have been asked to remove this link because the photos shown on the linked page appear to have been altered. I think I'd agree that the photos have indeed been altered, but I'll let people make that assessment themselves. We're adults here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Another Guest
Date: 09 May 04 - 08:18 PM

Well, to me,..........this is "beyond" shameful for the US in it's standing in the world community. It's repulsive and despicable. How can we as a nation recover from this? It's like a grown-up playing with fire and burning the house down only to be caught by the child. Horrible.

These photos brought instant tears and anger from me. I wondered if my forefathers from Africa AND my native American Indian relatives from years passed were treated this way. I think not. I think it was much worst for them. But who was there to save those abused ones? Wrong is wrong. That's another story.....Some say one way to judge a nation is to see how humanely they treat their prisoners in time of war. I hear this is the tip of the iceburg.

The weakness of some brings shame to all. We, the US, are supposed to be leaders, bringing innovative ideas to an opressed community, not followers that continue the abuse these same people have suffered for so long already in their own with Sadam. Where were the leaders for the military in this whole process? Are they part of this too? There's supposed to be "checks and balances" each step of the way in the distribution of power right?. That's the way our governmemt is set up any way. It's not right and I'm going with a gut feeling that now things will HAVE to change from the very top, in between, and even the bottom.   

To sum it up: I believe that the vast majority of the military enlistants are doing their jobs to the letter and are performing superberbly. I support them. I have yet to believe that this abuse is running rampant in the general population of the military. However, this is a "black eye" for all of us, especially for those that serve and have done so much good. It over shadows the good they have done and will be embebbed in the memories of those that we tried to rescue for a longer time. Ultimatey, it makes the current US administration look worst than before. We already know that Iraq had no direct link to 911, and yet, we the "adult" (in the world community) have gone to war with a "child", little Iraq. I have to admit that even though I have never supported the Bush Administration for a variety of reasons beginning with how they got into office in the first place, the loss of millions of jobs while the rich got richer from insane tax brakes, the extremely large national debt, and the the "cowboyish" image we now have in the way the Iraqi war has been conducted, to name a few,.......this must have caught them off guard. Poor leadership just about sums it up................A change is a commin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 09 May 04 - 02:43 PM

The scariest thing about this thread is that there are people who think it's all OK. Odd to have no education and live in a trailor park but have access to the net.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 May 04 - 12:52 PM

They have accidently released some more shots - see Yahoo - of a woman prisioner on a leash like a dog, naked and kneeling on the floor like a dog.

When the rest of these photos are circulated the entire world will be mad as hell as the USA.

The people who ordered this done to POWs should be tried and then publicly executed by a firing squad. That's what the allies did at the end of WW2 ... oh and they hung a few of them as well... in public.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:53 PM

"The problem is most people will obey the orders of a superiors no matter what the command. Peer pressure has alot to do with this"

Yes, but you can't order someone to hate.
There has to be some room in your theory for personal input and 'creativity'.

Whatever that turns out to be, can be the main problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,CCIE
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:45 PM

It is unfortunate that this event has shown the true colour of some of the comentators here. Americans are no different than any other nation upon the earth at this stage since the creation. If the people speaking here were really " World Travelers " they would have already realized this.
The problem here is not Americans or America. The problem is most people will obey the orders of a superiors no matter what the command. Peer pressure has alot to do with this, but social and political pressure can cause many people to do many different things.
Sure the US has gotten themselves into a war that is looking more and more everyday like it will not have the outcome that was desired in the first place. Ending the war has pushed them to do anything to acheive that end. I would ask all of you to first think about your own ills and address your issues first instead of screaming America or Isreal, Saudi Arabia, India, China or some obscure crack in the earth.
The fact is that most people of the world are blind followers no matter what they are following. They are us and we are them. BLIND FOLLOWERS will do anything that is asked of them. Americans...they thought that they werent blind followers and now they have found that they are just like everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,REALIST WORLD TRAVELLER
Date: 08 May 04 - 07:39 PM

Thank you GUEST, for taking the time and trouble to impartially show some of the photos the world is now discussing and viewing.
I am a Buddhist, but totally disgusted by the photos.
If this is the Christian, caring US Military in action from a country that professes to 'care' so much about Human Rights, then the USA is in a very sorry mess.
One only has to read the threads on this Board from obious Americans and the abuse directed at GUEST, to clearly see that it is a nation of fascist selfish bigots.
The actions of US troop in Iraq make Saddam Hussein seem a much better choice for the Iraqis.
Americans should ask themselves how they would feel if a foreign army took over their country, imprisoned President Bush (now THERE'S a GOOD idea!!) and then sadistically tortured US citizens.
The US should NEVER have invaded Iraq in the first place - America is NOT God. If any Americans have a brain, other than just a belly full of hamburgers and fries, they should get the hell out of Iraq NOW!!
All US personnel involved in this torture and abuse should be tried by Iraqi courts of justice and face the consequences.
George Bush should be there in the cock alongside them.
The crux of the whole problem is that Americans cannot 'see' what the rest of the world thinks of them and why most of the world hates them.
US perople canoot go blindly through life thinking 'We Are The Best', just like Nazi Germany.
The USA is trillions of dollars in debt, ridden with political corruption and led ny a President with the brains of a sheep (apologies to all sheep everywhere).

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Melanie
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:08 PM

We should not condemn the whole military but we need to keep in mind that a lack of respect for the Geneva Convention has been the policy of this administration. It is clear that Lynndie England was not properly trained and it sounds as though many other reservists were not even aware of the rules. It is ridiculous for a war justified on human rights grounds to be waged by soldiers who have not even been familiarized with the primary document regarding rights for soldiers.

It is not enough to discipline young, untrained reservists, whoever trained Ms. England has to go too.

And whether or not Rumsfeld goes, the Geneva Convention must be respected from now on or the U.S. Army will (fairly or unfairly) be known as hypocritical abusers of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:32 AM

First, thanks to those here who have commented positively about my keeping the thread going, and raising the difficult issues.

Mary, I'm with you on this for a number of reasons. In another thread, you said you thought as many prisoners as possible should be released as quickly as possible and this horror magnet of a prison be blown sky high. Just imagine the message our troops COULD have sent to Iraqis if, when the area was taken over by us, we had blown up the prison, and never used it.

Second, you mention the timing. I think there is still so much shock and awe surrounding these events right now, that we don't know exactly what happened. But good journalists will eventually trace it all back, and a few of us who will bother to go looking for their stories, will finally know the truth (as far as it will ever be knowable about something horrendous like this).

It seems to me that the reservists who are currently charged, started sending home letters which appeared to be reporting on irregularities at the prison in January. But that also appears to be around the time Rumsfeld was notified of the investigation? Though I'm not sure, because I think I also heard that Rumsfeld had been notified last fall, so don't hold me to that one. But at any rate, I think the reservists were already in hot water at the time they started writing home, and were in damage control mode.

With the new photos that were published yesterday in the Washington Post, this whole thing could widen, because it appears from the Washington Post story, that a CD with these photographs was being widely passed around among troops inside and outside the prison. Which brings up the issue of what is and isn't acceptable in the military culture on the ground in Iraq. That would, of course, involve the higher ups both participating, looking the other way, and condoning and justifying such behavior because it raises troop morale/relieves combat stresss to see the photos in the (to them) funny context of a travelogue, and especially, of the humiliation of Iraqis who our troops obviously view as their enemies, not their allies, in the liberation of Iraq.

So, I think this is all quite complex. Soldiers have a lot of technology on the ground in Iraq that the military simply can't keep control of, as this shows.

Again, I reiterate that for this CD to have been widely circulated among the troops, the military culture on the ground in Iraq, had to be supporting it, just like whole police departments are often corrupt when there is widespred corruption among police. The culture the troops operate in HAS to give tacit support at the least, to what was going on, the same way it was given in the LAPD when the police brutality scandal broke with Rodney King. These circumstances never involve just a few bad apples. These are circumstances where the bad apples have been put in charge, and it is those with a functioning moral compass are intimidated and silenced.

Rumsfeld must go. There is just no way for him to remain at the helm, because his presence would be too damaging for the troops and for the nation. It would also be best for Bush's re-election campaign for him to go today, but this administration has so much wrongdoing going on it, and so much secrecy covering it all up, I think they can't see the forest for the trees on this one.

We'll see what happens with Rumsfeld's testimony. But I just can't imagine a human rights scandal of this magnitude not bringing down some high officials. And it probably shouldn't stop with just Rumsfeld.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:55 PM

It doesn't take much searching to answer one question: who IS that woman smiling so broadly in so many of those abusive photos? Her name is Lynndie England, and here the sweet thing is in a photo with her fiancé. A Google Search on her name comes up with quite a few remarks and photos. Here's a blurb from the Muslim News from the UK:

Another reservist, Lynndie R. England, 21, told her mother in January about potential problems at the Iraq prison.

England grew up in a trailer down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, W.Va., a one-stoplight town about 13 miles south of Cumberland.

Yesterday afternoon, her mother, Terrie England, pressed her fingers to her lips when a reporter showed her a newspaper photo of her daughter smiling in front of what a caption said were nude Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

"Oh, my God," she said, her body stiffening as she sat on a cooler on the trailer's small stoop.

"I can't get over this," she said, taking a drag on her cigarette.

Lynndie England, a railroad worker's daughter who made honor roll at the high school near here, had enlisted in the 372nd for college money and the chance to widen her small-town horizons. In January, however, she gave her family the first inkling that something had gone woefully wrong.

"I just want you to know that there might be some trouble," she warned her mother in a phone call from Baghdad. "But I don't want you to worry."

Lynndie England said she was under orders to say no more. The military has told the family nothing; all the Englands know is that she has been detained, apparently in connection with the unit's alleged misconduct at the prison.

"Whether she's charged or not, I don't know," Terrie England said.

This was not supposed to be the fate of a girl who grew up hunting turkey or killing time with her sister at the local Dairy Dip, making wisecracks about the cars whizzing past.

"She wanted to see the world and go to college," said Terrie England, whose T-shirt bore a design of heart-shaped American flags. "Now the government turned their back on her, and everything's a big joke."

She held photos of her daughter in khakis, smiling atop a camel in Iraq.

At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the [Iraqis] do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

Everyone had been proud of Lynndie England. A Wal-Mart in nearby LaVale displays her photo on its Wall of Honor. The Mineral County courthouse in Keyser, W.Va., posts her photograph and those of other local soldiers under a banner that says: "We're hometown proud."

Lynndie England had found purpose, and love, in the Army. She got engaged last year to a fellow member of the 372nd, Charles Graner, who appears with his arm around her in the newspaper photo.

Now, Lynndie England is detained on a U.S. base - her family declined to say where - and is barred from leaving for anything besides her job. She has been demoted from the rank of specialist to private first class. And when she calls home, she says frustratingly little.

Destiny Goin said the Army had trained her sister Lynndie for an administrative job, "a paper pusher." Instead, she wound up helping to guard 900 Iraqi prisoners of war in a sprawling, squalid compound near Baghdad.

"It's just unjust, is what it is," Goin said.

Rest of the article is here. This story just tears at your heart strings, doesn't it? [NOT!]

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: mg
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:22 PM

What bothers me the most is not hearing that immediate action was taken..I have had a hard time following this...my computer is basically down and I can just stay late at work sometimes to read etc...when was the abuse stopped and how long did it take? Were special efforts undertaken to speed up the process so that the remaining prisoners could be released if found not to be a threat? Were immediate orders issued to inspect every prison or facility in the war zone? Not just for abuse but for adequate food, shelter etc.? Are we so low on personnel that we must use what have been described as traffic cops (itself a necessary and demanding speciality but different from prison control) to do one of the most sensitive aspects of the war? Were commanders told to inform their troops of the seriousness of their duties and that no abuses would be tolerated? That this would affect how our POWs would be treated? And would lead to more Americans and coalition troops being captured????? It all boggles my mind. I am not so naive as to believe horrible situations do not occur, and as GUEST says, I am touched by evil, but also by good, and the knowledge that evil is not just going to go away on its own. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From:
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:52 PM

I am a soldier and I am disgusted by these pictures, but to condemn the military over this matter is retarded every soldier I have talked to and known would be or is as sickened as everyone is about this.

I am disgusted by this but in all due respect I am not condoning what they did any form quite the contrary I think it is disgusting but, I have seen far worse done to my brothers and sisters in arms.

This is war shit happens. You think shit hasn't happened to our soldiers in such fashions? If you think that your a idiot. The only difference is the US doesn't parade it around like every other country because we seek to protect the individuals from the humiliation that has occurred during their inprisonment.

Again the soldiers behind the abuse will see justice handed to them and rightfully so it is deserved but to condemn all military action is completely unacceptable and irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:32 PM

Sorry, I meant to provide a link to the new photos in that last post.

There is a slide show of some of the new photographs at the Washington Post website, but registration is required to view it.

Slide show of new photos of prisoner torture at Abu Ghraib 5/6

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:29 PM

The Washington Post today announced it has obtained what may be more photographic evidence of detainees' abuse at the infamous Abu Ghraib prison:

By Christian Davenport
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 6, 2004; Page A01


The collection of photographs begins like a travelogue from Iraq. Here are U.S. soldiers posing in front of a mosque. Here is a soldier riding a camel in the desert. And then: a soldier holding a leash tied around a man's neck in an Iraqi prison. He is naked, grimacing and lying on the floor...

...Mixed in with more than 1,000 digital pictures obtained by the Washington Post are photographs of naked men, apparently prisoners, sprawled on top of one another while soldiers stand around them. The graphic images, passed around among military police who served at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad, are a new batch of photographs similar to those broadcast a week ago on CBS's "60 Minutes II" and published by the New Yorker magazine. They appear to provide further visual evidence of the chaos and unprofessionalism at the prison detailed in a report by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba. His report, which relied in part on the photographs, found "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" that were inflicted on detainees.

This group of photographs, taken from the summer of 2003 through the winter, ranges widely, from mundane images of everyday military life to pictures showing crude simulations of sex among soldiers. The new pictures appear to show American soldiers abusing prisoners, many of whom wear ID bands, but The Post could not eliminate the possibility that some of them were staged.

The photographs were taken by several digital cameras and loaded onto compact discs, which circulated among soldiers in the 372nd Military Police Company, an Army Reserve unit based in Cresaptown, Md. The pictures were among those seized by military investigators probing conditions at the prison, a source close to the unit said."

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:07 PM

This war is not of our choosing but theirs! Never ever ever forget that no matter who does what to who.

With all due respect, sorefingers, I think if you review the history of the affair you will find that those responsible for choosing to attack "us" (meaning the US) were not Iraqis. (Actually they wer emostly Saudis, as far as we know).   So how do you reckon it was their choice? Or are you of the turn of mind that says all "ragheads" are the same as all other "ragheads"??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:00 PM

I think Guest is correct to make us think about this matter,regardless of the hurt feelings.
All inhabitants of this earth should look on one another as brothers.
Enemies are in the main, invented by politicians and religious lunatics.
The politician will exhort the soldier to kill "enemies of the State " on one day, and the next will be inviting the same "enemy" to shake hands with the Queen, or join in "democratic government"
Its no wonder the military man,who is usually "intellectually challenged" anyway,doesnt know if his arseholes' punched or bored.
Getting back to the subject ,I just missed "National Service " in the UK,but I remember ,most of my friends who did serve their two years in the forces returned brutalised,and hardly recognisable in personality.
The photographs are sure to reinforce the belief held by Moslems,that
Western culture is corrupt and disgusting.
A belief that I have shared for a number of years....Ake