BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!

Subject: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:13 PM

From the NY Times:

"Bush Apologizes for Abuse of Iraqis, Then Backs Rumsfeld
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: May 6, 2004
Filed at 3:54 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush apologized Thursday for the abuse and humiliation of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers, saying the scenes of mistreatment had made Americans ``sick to our stomachs.''

A day after he stopped short of apologizing, Bush told Jordan's King Abdullah II: ``I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families.

``I told him I was as equally sorry that people seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America,'' Bush said, standing in the Rose Garden alongside Abdullah.

The president's statement went beyond his comment Wednesday that the abuse of prisoners was ``abhorrent'' and ``does not represent the America that I know.''

His lack of an apology Wednesday was striking, and his spokesman said later that the president was sorry. Bush gave voice to that sentiment Thursday.

Scenes of mistreatment have been broadcast around the world, drawing international condemnation and prompting outrage in the Middle East. Bush said he discussed the pictures with Abdullah.

For his part, the king said, ``We're all horrified by the images'' of torture and abuse.

He said he was confident that American investigations would find the guilty parties. The abuse by some soldiers ``doesn't reflect the morals and values'' of the United States, Abdullah said.

Describing a meeting he had Wednesday with Rumsfeld, Bush said, ``I told him I should have known about the pictures and the report'' done by the Pentagon two months ago. The president said he had assured Abdullah that ``people will be brought to justice in a way commensurate to how our system works.''

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:31 PM

picture of the Bush dilemma...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/gastruck1.jpg

He can run but he can not hide.

He is tattooed with sexual erotic homo phobic pornography and its going to stick to him for a long long time.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:37 PM

I was actually shocked to hear the apology had actually come from his lips. Man, his ears MUST have burning after that meeting with the king!

The US is so royally screwed in terms of our international rep now. Does any think the apology will be enough? I think for many Europeans, who would love to watch Bush eat crow, the apology is enough. But for the Iraqi people? No. They want justice, and a dishonorable discharge for murder isn't going to cut it for them, or any other Arab countries.

Notice how he only apologized for the torture, and not for the murder of prisoners while in custody? What's up with that?

BTW Donuel, I think that photo is quite apt. We're all sort of waiting for this one to blow sky high, aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:06 PM

Wriggling, I'd call it. Damage limitation. "I'm horrified there are such nasty people around - but it's nothing to do with me. Nobody ever tells me anything." There's a sign oin his desk pointing away from him, and it says "The buck stops over there..."

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:09 PM

Too true, McGrath. Also, the man the Iraqis and other Arabs will want to see held accountable, I think, is Rumsfeld. This is one of those political circumstances that requires the sacrifice of a high official.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: mg
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:27 PM

Next free as many prisoners as you safely can, then have an Iraqi engineering squad blow the damn place sky high. Then in addition to all the other obvious questions, ask why there were women guarding male prisoners, in a place where their cultural feelings on even less intense matters are roughly known, and likewise if there are men guarding male prisoners. And why were the soldiers, even if they had been doing anything "required" allowing themselves to be in such dangerous positions; the pictures of the women (or maybe one was a man, hard to tell) looked like one prisoner who declined to be treated that way could have reached back and broken her neck. It is all sick and bizarre.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:43 PM

Notice that he didn't really say "I'm sorry," but instead mentioned that he'd told King Abdullah that he was sorry. And he was only "sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners." In other words, "I'm sorry you found it embarrassing to be tortured and sexually assaulted."

Then his so-called second apology: "I told him I was as equally sorry that people seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America." In other words, "I'm equally sorry that y'all are so dense that these pictures made you angry."

What kind of a man can't just say "I'm sorry?" It would help him in the Middle East, and it would've increased his reputation at home. What a fucking child.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:25 PM

reminds me of a guy who was forced to apologize many years ago, and who managed to choke on "If I did anything I'm sorry for, I'm glad of it!"

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:41 PM

No sign (or hope) of his apologising to the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:30 PM

He's also very, very sorry that his poll numbers are dropping.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:37 PM

Nah. You're all wrong.   

He's most sorry that the photos were made public.

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:42 PM

I don't suppose he will apologize for the premeditated slaughter of innocents.

A

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:44 PM

If he did apologize, someone else wrote it for him. He couldn't spell the word.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:31 AM

He doesn't apoligize ...you berate him.
He apologizes ...you berate him.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:38 AM

He apologised to the King of Jordan, Doug.

All he did was to tell us that he had done this, as Lepus Rex has said above.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:54 AM

George Bush is only sorry because it was found out.

He can't even say he's sorry with any sincerity.

Course not. If God didn't want it to happen, it wouldn't have happened. Its not his fault!

He should have said he was ashamed!

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Stu
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:42 AM

Shame he din't have the balls to say it to the Iraqis when he had the chance, that may have meant something.

It takes someone with courage and integrity to apologise directly to a person they've wronged. This is another cop-out from the bumbling moron.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST,kiwi guest
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:06 AM

Doug R I've read your offerings for quite some time now. Do you honestly believe the things you print or are you just trying to liven up the discussions. If it is the former then you are either being paid by somebody, completely dishonest or only have one oar in the water. ( a bit like being one sandwich short of a picnic)

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:38 AM

Oh, I for one feel SO much better now. All is forgiven, George..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:42 AM

Personal attacks like the one kiwi guest made just now on Doug R are extremely irritating. They are doubly so when they come from someone "on side". They are the equivalent of a foul by a member of your own team.

Most web discussions I've seen, away from the Mudcat, seem to be like that most of the time, and they tend to be dominated by loudmouthed and offensive right wing bigots. I value the opportunity on the Mudcat to be able to argue out things at times with someone like Doug, who while right wing, and holding a range of views with which I disagree isn't as a rule loudmouthed or offensive. Posts like that by kiwi guest would seem calculated to try to push the Mudcat in a direction I am sure most of us would hate to see it go.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:50 AM

I don't think the apology will matter much, because in Arab political culture, people are more interested in justice being done, than receiving an official apology.

But if you remember back to the early days of the Bush administration, and the China crisis (how did our spy plane and crew crash land in their territory?), it was the official apology that was necessary, because it involved public humiliation of the wrong doer, which in Chinese political culture is as important as justice being done.

It is easier for us to interpret the American cultural nuances of the apology that isn't an apology, which is, as Lepus Rex says, what Bush gave. But even that is more significant for Bush for how it plays at home, than it is in Iraq and the Middle East. Besides, it wasn't the Jordanian people who needed to hear an apology, as someone else pointed out, but the Iraqi people. Not only should justice be done (ie the sacrifice of a high official, because so much of what this involves is male honor), but the apology should be made by a high ranking American official that goes to Iraq for express purpose of offering one. Not Paul Bremer or the generals on the ground, in other words.

I just don't understand why the UN, NATO, OAS, etc. aren't making a much bigger deal of this, to be honest. There is so much political capital to be made out of this one.

But I don't think we will see a single American do jail time for the torture. Not under the Bush administration's justice for us by us system.

And DougR is right to point out the hypocrisy of first complaining that people demanded an apology, and then when one was given, to not recognize it for what it was. Bush's apology won't do much if anything at home or abroad to fix things, but it did have to be given. This wasn't a sincere apology, given to those to whom it should have been, but it was a statement that included the words "I apologized" in it.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:42 AM

Good point, Lepus Rex...

Bush didn't actually apologize but only reported that he had apologized. Apologies start with the word "I". Anything less cheapens it.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:59 PM

Today's preface to the questiong of Rumsfeld by Sen. Byrd was impressive.   Forget the polemics of Kennedy, the dramatics of Congressman Rangel,===the drama and sincerety of Byrd was impressive. As he pointed out---Truman, FDR, JFK, and all their cabinet took responsibility for their actions. They did not weasel out of queries as did Rummy (as he is called by Maureen Dowd in the TImes).

To the question of would even the higher ups in the chain of command be prosecuted as are the enlistees.   He hemmed and he hawed---and when pressed said the old cliche---we always bring the guilty to justice ( I paraphrase here).   Oh sure!!   NOt a direct answer as to who in the chain of command above the rank of enlistee---or contractor (whoever heard of that in a war) is going to prison.

The morality of this administration has got to be the lowest of any of not only recent memory.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:36 PM

While I agree with you, Bill, that Rumsey did evade a lot of questions, I'd at least give him some credit in the area of aplogies. He certainly came closer than his boss...

But, yeah, he did a lot of stalling anf grandstanding, but not quite as wdell as Condi "The Evader" Rice, herself. She's much better...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:42 PM

"I take full responsibility for disgraceful things that happened on my watch. Therefore I will not resign." That's a new definition of responsibility, which could comein very handy for a lot of people.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:42 PM

Seems that there were thirty-seven 'military' intellegence officers hired on contract who were the ones actually trying to extract information.

What kind of a loophole is this?

If they were military, they should be tried in military court along with their commander.

If they were civilians, they should be tried in civilian court along with whoever hired them.

Guess we will have to see what the "fine print" on the contract stipulated. Wouldn't you like to read the contract?

I guess thats what you get when people think they can run the country like a business.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST,Been there, done that
Date: 08 May 04 - 04:40 PM

Who cares, they hate us anyway...Remember Sept. 11? Feed 'em pork and shoot 'em in the back of the head.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 04:52 PM

Good fun out there, then?

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 08 May 04 - 04:58 PM

The only meaningful apology can make to the American people is for declaring a pre-emptive war on Iraq. He owes it to the young servicemen and women who sacrificed their lives for a right-wing pseudo-religious political agenda.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 04 - 05:19 PM

It boggles me to think that he finds humiliating treatment in prison "disgusting", but invading and slaughtering people understandable and even praiseworthy. What is UP with that?

A

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:07 PM

Besides, he was trying so hard to keep the irrepressible smirk from breaking out that he looked catatonic.

He's simply a buffoon, and most of the world realized it ong before this latest disgrace.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 08 May 04 - 08:08 PM

Unfortunately I believe the enlisted folks will most definitely be "punished", whether that means jail time or not only a military courts martial can say.

As far as the officers, well, I've seen too many instances of enlisted folks being treated one way and the officers being treated quite differently. In this I guess I'm with most of you. I don't know that any of the enlisted were "trained" to treat them that way. I do know that the enlisted folks are made well aware of the Uniform Code of Military Justice that forbids this type of thing and if they're over there they should have been trained on the Geneva convention so that they at least knew their rights should they be captured.

It's operation cluster F**k for sure!

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:31 PM

I am convinced that Bush does not give a shit about what the American public or any citizen from any nation thinks of him and his administration. They don't even care if they are re-elected. By November the objective of world domination will be firmly established.

You may think he is a buffoon (thats what he wants you to think) but behind the scenes he is a facist who will never have to walk the streets with people like you and me. He is laughing all the way to the bank.

Kerry, with the help of other concerned nations will be left with one hell of a clean-up and we will be left with, not only the bill for reconstruction, but the humiliation of letting him get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:47 PM

Sorry dianavan, but No, he's just an ignorant buffoon.

Its the guys BEHIND him, the BuShite junta propping him up that are the really scary folks.

If Dumbya were to drop dead tomorrow, it wouldn't make a fart in a high wind's bit of difference. Plenty of other a$$holes available to be front men for the neo-con, neo-imperialist, neo fascist agenda.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: BUSH APOLOGIZES!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:46 PM

Talk about Rumsfeld resigning- in my opinion the entire administration should fall on their swords.

Excerpts from http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040509/ap_on_go_pr :

"Bush pledged in his radio address that the United States would not be thrown into retreat.
"This has been a difficult few weeks," Bush said. "Yet our forces will stay on the offensive, finding and confronting the killers and terrorists who are trying to undermine the progress of democracy in Iraq."

Just who is undermining the progress of democracy in Iraq? Just how do we plan to sell ourselves and our system of government to them?

"Kurt Campbell, a former Pentagon official during the Clinton administration, said it was too early to tell whether Rumsfeld would be able to keep his job.
"The real issue is there's more stuff that's going to come out that is troubling, beyond humiliation and torture. Deaths I think," said Campbell, director of international security at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "And there's going to be quite a long record of warnings that were either ignore or dismissed. And that I think is going to be problematic," Campbell said. "

While the world already has been horrified by pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, the Pentagon (news - web sites) warns there are many more photos and videos that have not been disclosed.

They show "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman," embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress.