BS: Car that runs on water

Subject: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Arnie
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:22 AM

Read yesterday that the Japanese have finally done it! Honda have come up with a car that uses water for fuel. It does 100mph, covers 220 miles on a full tank and the only emission is steam. This could be the ozone-layer saviour we've all been waiting for. But what will the fossil-fuel industry do now?? They'll probably have a go at buying up the patent and stifling this one at birth. However, even if the car is marketed, I can't believe that we'll be allowed to fill up for free from a watering can. I expect that the car will need 'special' water at 80p a litre........I'm off to buy some water coy. shares.....

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:34 AM

Arnie:

Seems unlikely -- can you provide a link??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:35 AM

Steam driven cars have been around since early in the 20th century. The problem is where the energy to make the steam comes from.

A car which used electricity to heat the water to make the steam would be simply removed the pollutants one step away from you -- that is, at the electric plant instead of at your car.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:37 AM

This should have been posted on April 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:41 AM

Well, Jim, they are working on it. Here's one link about Honda's CFX car. It sounds distinctly different from ordinary fuels cells which are loaded with hydrogen. I dunno though.

I'd like to hear more.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:52 AM

Just imagine it eh! We could sell water to the Arabs:-) What would happen if England invaded Wales for the water though? Would Iraq attack us...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: ced2
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:59 AM

Mr Trevithick first did it 200 years ago, mind you his machine was a bit on the ugly side!

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:03 PM

Funny! Actually the FCX is in use by the City of San Francisco as shown in this story but it is not a car that "runs on water" from its tank. Its fuel tank holds compressed hydrogen. It turns that into energy through polymer-based fuel cells.

I think the link I first posted from Scotland was (a) mistaken about the notion of on-board water==>fuel conversion or (b) about some other vehicle altogether. If so I can't find it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:14 PM

2004 FCX

ENGINE

Drive Method:   Front-wheel drive

Motor Type: AC Sychronous Electric Motor (permanent magnet)

Maximum Output (horsepower): 80

Maximum Torque (ft.-lbs.): 201

Fuel Cell Stack Type: PEFC (polymer electrolyte fuel cell)

Fuel Cell Maximum Output (kW): 78

Ultra-Capacitor Electrostatic Capacity (F): 80

Maximum Speed (mph): 93

Vehicle Range (miles, EPA mode): 170

EXTERIOR DIMENSIONS

Length (in.): 164.0

Overall Width (in.) 69.3

Overall Height (in.) 64.8

Wheelbase (in.) 99.3

Tread (front/rear, in.) 99.3

Vehicle Weight (lbs.) 3,713

Number of Occupants 4

FUEL

Type: Compressed hydrogen gas

Storage:   High-pressure hydrogen tank

Tank Capacity (L): 156.6

Gas Volume when Full (kg): 3.8

Maximum Pressure when Full (psi): 5000.0

A

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:46 PM

If they are "ready for market" then the Honda is something of a news item. The technology is not really anything new. Nearly every major manufacturer has been working on hydrogen fueled vehicles for at least the past 15 or 20 years, but putting together a complete package has been "uneconomic."

The car runs on hydrogen, not water. Water is probably the simplest place to get hydrogen, by electrolysis, for the present, but will likely not be a "prefered" source if mass usage becomes common. It is most likely that when you actually can pull up to a pump and "fill-er-up" with hydrogen the hydrogen will come from catalytic "cracking" petroleum.

Most major experimentors have discarded the "pressurized hydrogen" tank concept, simply because the low density of hydrogen requires that it be stored at very high pressure in order to get enough fuel onboard for useful range. The "pressure tank" itself amounts to a small bomb. In addition, hydrogen ignites easily, and burns "explosively" when ignited in large volume. (Remember the Hindenburg.)

Burning hydrogen with air is not polution free since the nitrogen (80% of the air) will still be oxidized at useful combustion temperatures. The extremely high nitrous oxide emissions of experimental hydrogen fueled "engines" ha been a major problem in many development programs. Catalytic combustion may be a way to achieve hydrogen/air conversion with lesser NOx emissions, but it's still a "developing technology."

An EPA mileage range of 170 miles realistically lets you get about 50 miles from the "fuel point." That may be useful in some places, but even ignoring the limited number of places to refuel with gaseous hydrogen, 250 mile usable range (about 325 EPA) is considered a "handicapped vehicle" in my neighborhood.

It's good to hear that commercialization is being tried, but from a technological breakthrough viewpoit:

" HO   HUM   zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz "

John

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:44 PM

Note the article says the car runs on "water-generated hydrogen." That's not the same thing as running on water. The car runs on hydrogen. The hydrogen is generated, not in the car, but in a processing plant somewhere. Then the hydrogen is pumped or loaded into the car, much as you pump gasoline into the car now.

Hydrogen can be made from water, but it takes energy to do that. The energy still has to come from somewhere. It doesn't come from the water.

Hydrogen-powered vehicles may be the way to go in the future. They will produce less pollution, assuming the hydrogen-generating plants produce less pollution than the combined effect of cars and oil-refineries do today.

I think the auto manufacturers are working on this because they expect that someday, some cities will either ban internal combustion engines altogether, or restrict them, or give big tax advantages or subsidies to non-polluting engines. That might be a good idea. Without any of those government actions, it will be a long time, if ever, before hydrogen-powered vehicles are economical.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:29 PM

There's an old geezer in the Chicago area that already has developed and runs about in a modified GM or Ford. He uses Hydride which as you know is a solid material. Anywho tyical US corporations have their heads firmly shoved YKW and he is ignored.

A few years later we have the Asian car makers moving on in.

Corporate American deserves what it gets! and today it is getting stomped into the dirt by genius and ingenuity - none of which have got the B degree never mind the PhD which is what Corporate America loves!

Soon even our food will be made in China! The land will then be turned into a giant ThemePark/DudeRanch.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:34 PM

Back in that misty time before they built a fence around the La Brea tar pits, when I was about eight years old and we lived in Pasadena, Dad had a friend who was a tinkerer and self-styled inventor. One of the things he invented was a perpetual motion machine. It was pretty ingenious, but it had two small problems:   first, after he pushed it to get it started, it ran for quite a while—but—eventually it slowed down and stopped; second, if you tried to hook it up to anything so that it could do some practical work, it stopped immediately. It consisted of a large vertical disk (horizontal axis of rotation) with lead weights all around the edge. At the top, the lead weights would flop over and gravity pulling the weights down would make the disk rotate. He hadn't got quite as far as figuring out it took just as much energy for the disk to drag the weights back up to the top. And there were a few other picky little things he hadn't factored in. Just a few bugs to work out. . . .

He also invented an automobile engine that ran on water. He had it worked out on paper, but he never got around to building a working model. Even as young as I was when I heard him explain it, I remember vividly the way the thing was supposed to work. It electrically separated water into hydrogen and oxygen, fed them down separate tubes to the pistons, then reunited the two gasses in the cylinders and ignited them with a spark from the same battery that separated them. The resultant explosion drove the pistons. The reconstituted water just ran back into the fuel tank, ready to make the round-trip all over again. When I got into a high school chemistry class and saw a demonstration of electrolysis, I suddenly understood what he had in mind. Tricky!

He said that he tried to sell it to a couple of automobile companies, but they obviously conspired to "suppressed" his "invention." They had told him that his system actually used energy inefficiently. It would be much more efficient to dump all the tubes and stuff, put in an electric motor, and run the thing directly off the battery.

I'm afraid there were a few basic scientific inconveniences that my Dad's friend tended to overlook.

I have a friend who owns a Toyota Prius. He goes on long trips in it. He loves it. He feels real smug, especially at gas stations when, as other people wince, shudder, and whine as they fill the tanks of their SUVs, he fills the tank of the Prius with an eye-dropper.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:51 PM

Sorefingers -

Storage of hydrogen fuel as Metal Hydride has been under study by nearly every "transportation company" in the world for at least 20 years. I 1981, Beech Aircraft Corporation had a running hydrogen fueled demonstrator car that used hydride stored hydrogen fuel. I can attest from personal observation that the car ran quite nicely, but had "a few problems." And based on my having worked for Beech+Raytheon for a cumulative dozen years, I can firmly assert that they stole all their ideas from only the best sources.

One of the problems with storing the fuel as hydride is that you have to "force" the hydride to release the hydrogen so it can be used in the engine. This means, usually, that the entire fuel tank has to run at elevated temperature - commonly about 350F or higher, well above the "flash point" for hydrogen if it's mixed with a little air before it gets re-cooled. Think traveling bombs again.

There's also the "minor problem" that putting hydrogen fuel back into the hydride is a "chemical process," that's not much slower than recharging a storage battery ... but....

The "leading technologies" currently touted by developers may use hydrogen fuel stored in hydride form, catalytic combustion, possibly fuel cell conversion, and electric traction motors. Nobody has a "ready to sell" that I've heard of that's beyond "field test" stage as yet.

Given that combustion of hydrogen fuel still has a serious NOx polution problem, an alternate method using propane and catalytic burner/fuel cell conversion to electric power looks promising. All of the component processes exist, but the cumulative effect of inefficiencies in each of the processes - when you put them all together - still leave you with a rather inefficient vehicle. Same as for straight hydrogen fueled combustion engines.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:06 PM

Don Firth: A friend of mine in St. Louis once showed me a "perpetual motion machine" that he had inherited from an eccentric neighbor. It was very much like the one you described. Of course, it didn't work either, but the maker believed he just had to keep working on it. Too bad he died before he perfected it.

The builder (my friend's neighbor) was a notorious eccentric known as Highway Mike. (I have forgotten his real name.) His other obsession, besides building a perpetual motion machine, was highway safety. He believed the local freeways were too dangerous because they didn't have enough reflectors and warning signs, so he would make them himself, out of old beer cans, and erect them along the sides of the freeways. (The bottoms of beer cans do make good reflectors if they're pointed the right direction.) Of course, the Highway Department would always take them down. He would also show up at any city planning meeting to complain about the state of the roads. When he died, the St. Louis Post Dispatch printed a nice obituary. I looked for it, and couldn't find it.

Maybe someone should start a thread called "Eccentrics I have known."

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: pdq
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:18 PM

A car that runs on water is called a boat.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Joe_F
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:27 PM

If only cold fusion had turned out to be feasible! The deuterium in a liter of water, if converted to helium, would yield as much energy as the burning of 300 liters of gasoline.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:57 PM

I just finished reading the Hydrogen Economy by Jeremy Rifkin,
and its amazing how much of what he talks about is even more apt now than when the book came out a couple of years ago.

the various problems with the fossil fuel industry (overestimation of reserves - just recently by Shell),
the unstable mid-east where the most of the cheapest extractabe crude oil lies, and will be when were descending down the bell curve of fossil fuels reserves. And of course the global warming - thanks to extra co2 and other pollution.

the main idea is that we have been slowly moving towards hydrogen energy source over the centuries - from wood - coal, petroleum each actually contains more hydrogen. Rather than an energy source, hydrogen is more a way to store energy - than can be used in cleaner fuel cell. the advantage of hydrogen is in storage of energy. Currently you can store electricity either chemically in batteries (expensive) or in hydro dams - but now extra electricity that is produced can be stored as hydrogen.

given last years massive blackout on the eastern seaboard - there is an advantage to decentralize the electrical grid. Many industries,
banks, financial, hightech, are setting up backup fuel cell powered generators (right now) to avoid losses from power failures.

some chip manufacturer was down for an hour - with $30 million in lost production. This also makes the system less vulnerable to terrorist attacks.

also pound for pound hydrogen has about 3x the energy as the same weight of gasoline. Even though its stored under pressure it would dissipate into the air if it should leak rather than spill out on the ground. (not sure of this one - Rifkins point)

Rifkin sees the potential of hydrogen economy as re-distributing the power from a few to many in the same sense the internet did with communication and the spread of information - (although its by no means guaranteed to happen.)

ideally the hydrogen should ultimately come from clean renewable sources, such as wind, solar, biomass, geothermal
(countries like Iceland are planning to be huge players in hydrogen production) Holland gets about 15% of its electrical needs from offshore wind.


I suspect that once the Chinese govt decides to increase pollution controls on cars - even though fuel cell powered cars are expensive-
the big automakers will fight each other to get into that market and make it work.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Amergin
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:21 PM

Let's just have world war three...then we won't have to worry about running out of oil...pollution...

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 May 04 - 04:28 AM

Hey pdq..a car that ran on water in the 1960's was called the "Amphicar"

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Gurney
Date: 08 May 04 - 05:54 AM

There's a new 'Anmphicar' type which was designed by a Kiwi and I think built in UK which goes well in both environments, even planes in the water, unlike the original. Not bad looking either.

I've always thought that the fuel of the future is alcohol made from biomass. It has a reasonable calorific value and a lot of the technology is already around. Brazil use to mix it with their petrol.

The alcohol in methelated spirits here is mostly made from Whey, a by-product of cheese-making. This may give new insight into why Little Miss Muffet keeps seeing spiders.
Is Meths what is termed in the US 'denatured alcohol? I've read the words but not seen the product.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Raven "Where's my pint"
Date: 08 May 04 - 07:18 AM

Honda's FCX Site

The car looks identical to thier standard range hatchback. Depending on the cost will depend on the take up really.
Skoda and Vaxhaul (Opel) have both had working Hydrogen cars in the past, the problem was they were around 20% more expensive to purchase in the first place.
Vaxhaul's had the secondary problem that it didn't use water it used pure hydrogen only available at special BP HydroStations; which really hampered things.

Personally I think what they should do is combine a current vehicle which is popular with the technology.
Such-as the Smart Car, they look quirky but they sell like hotcakes over europe.
The added bonus with those cars is they're already dirt cheap and low-top speed; so people aren't going to be put off by the fact the top-end performance isn't pretty decent, and any extra cost and they'll still end up cheaper than current equivilant models on petrol.

Smarter business sense if you want to get people to buy green.

Subject: RE: BS: Car that runs on water
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:27 AM

John Prescott has two that were financed by hot air. (UK political reference)