BS: Are there really Angels?

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 10:14 AM

I saw several wings on the backs of some pretty poppets at Chippenham Folk festival but I didn't ask if they were angels - maybe I would have found out if I had. They looked as if there weren't.............

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Christian
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 07:12 AM

Spoken well Dianavan. Angels are there fort all who are "able" tosee them

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 02:26 AM

Little Hawk - I like what you said about angels being non-denominational! I was not raised "in a church' but was not discouraged from seeking God. As a child, I was on a beautiful but isolated Pacific beach at sunset. I was at the waters edge, feeling the sand squish from beneath my feet. I heard a sound. I looked into the sky and saw a choir of angels to the northwest. There was also a larger, singular, bright figure in the southwest part of the sky. I could not see faces, wings or hands. What was more amazing than the bright and radiant visual was the sound. It was one long, sustained sound that got louder and louder. It was perfect harmony.

I did not wish for this. I was not looking for angels. In fact, I believe that it was my untrained mind that was open to this experience. Too often, schools and churches categorize and codify, not only that which exists, but also how to think and feel about what exists.

When we separate what we think from what we feel, our perception is limited to one knowledge or the other. When we think and feel simultaneously, our knowledge become personally relevant. I wish I could have another experience like that but I think my brain is over-trained and far too rational. I have lost my innocence. The balance is gone.

Doesn't the bible say something like: Lest ye make yourselves like little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven?

I think I entered the kingdom of heaven for a few brief moments. I wish I could go there again.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 12:18 AM

I'm a writer, but not a successful one, with two very fine cats, who are very well fed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Cruiser
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 10:48 PM

I must admit one of my favorite songs 'Angel On My Shoulder' by Shelby Flint would not sound quite right as "got an Angle On..."

So, the word has at least inspired one good song. I can't say the same for Angle.

Cruiser (aka Mathmatishun)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 07:59 PM

Some folk obviously have the right angle on it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 02:48 PM

Ok fine ... let's not get all obtuse over it now ...

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Mathmatishun
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 10:44 PM

Well of course there are Angles: some straight, some right, acute, central, obtuse, reflex, vertex, etc.

Now I ask you, ever seen acute Angel?

I guess when you wing your way to heaven it is on the wings of the Angel of Elevation.

Angles are real, Angels are not.

That's the Angle on Angels...they ain't congruent.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM

Actually, I had been thinking about calling you...so your message was half getting through, I guess. Will do. Shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 07:21 AM

Little Hawk, I've been asking the angels to give you this irresistible urge to call me ... but no go ... hmmmph! angels shmangels .... gotta do everything myself ... oh fine!

GIVE ME A CALL WHEN YOU GET THE CHANCE LITTLE HAWK!

daylia


PS are you perchance an American kestrel???

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 07:20 AM

Thanks, Ebbie, for (implicitely) correcting my typo.

Comes down to a matter of belief. (brucie)
Besides, if angels don't really exist for some peopl--why are we discussing them? (brucie)

Yes, it's a matter of belief, of course, and belief needs no evidence. An expression like 'really exist', however, sounds funny for me in juxtaposition with 'for some people'. If I believe there are no angels and no God do they 'really not exist' for me? It seems to be clearer for me to use words like 'belief' here and leave 'really' to another sphere.

The story about the skeptic's surprise after death is a good one for more than one reason. I nearly bought a book elaborating this story at the last german skeptics' congress. It was hilarious and it ended with an uprising against God. But I like the story for another reason: It points to a basic asymmetry between a believer and a skeptic: The dead skeptic can only find that she was wrong (or find nothing), the dead believer can only find that he was right about the afterlife (though perhaps miserably wrong in many details). The skeptic has no chance to find out he was right and the believer has no chance to find out she was wrong. That's one of the basic differences: skeptics prefer to be proved wrong, because there is much more to learn from being proved (proven?) wrong.

Georgiansilver, I consider many things correct and real that I have never experienced.

BTW, if someone is interested in reading a skeptical point of view regarding angels and similar entities, you can read

Joe Nickell, Entities, Prometheus Books, 1995.

The point is not to prove that they don't exist, for after all, it's a matter of belief (see above). The point is to show which situations and what stimulation can lead to the real experiences which then are interpreted by some as, for instance, angelic action.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:30 AM

There are plenty of different definitions of "Angel". It just depends on who you ask. If you actually encounter one, however, then you've got something more definite to go on...but don't expect anyone else to necessarily believe you! They won't if they are not inclined to, and that's perfectly okay, I guess. I mean, really, what difference does it make whether they believe you or not? None, actually. Same deal with flying saucers, ghosts, and anything else the least bit unusual that one may have encountered. Let the debunkers be happy in their unbelief, I say. They want a World that fits only what they already believe and nothing else. Okay, fine. You live in exactly the World you believe in as long as you keep believing in it. Sometimes direct experience can change that set of beliefs radically...but only for the one who has the experience! There will always be people who deny YOUR direct experience out of hand...because they KNOW it just can't be true. "I don't believe it's possible, so it can't be true. You couldn't have had that experience, and if you think you did, you are mistaken." Well, whoopee doo. Ignorance is the most impervious armour known to man. It admits no possibility that it has not itself already adopted.

And you do not have to belong to any religion to see an Angel...they're nondenominational. :-) Despite this, most organized religions seek to establish exclusive ownership over them. Sad, that's what is. Sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Brucewith no beard.
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 05:42 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 06:04 AM

Hi Beardedbruce.
It would appear to me that there are many different interpretations of what angels actually are but consider this. The Bible actually tells us they exist as the guardians and helpers from God whereas the demons are of the devil and working for evil. Some of the very personal replies I have had on PM indicate that whatever they are they "help" people positively.
I personally believe that Angels are of God as it is the only documented evidence of such positive beings but each to his/her own I suppose. Everyone(who has any kind of experience of such phenomena) has a relevant opinion. Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 05:33 AM

Did anyone ever give an explaination/definition of "angels"?

I know there are things that we have no explaination of, but what exactly do you mean when you say "angel"? A helpful spirit that moves trees out of the way of moving cars? A little voice that tells you to slow down?

Are we talking about an external agency, or an aspect of God/Goddess that resides within each of us?

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:52 AM

Great Lady Jean but your vivid imagination might not be shared with others. Do you have a lot of cats then??? lol Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 01:35 AM

You're unusual, Lady Jean. I think you should consider writing a book. You might get on Oprah.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: LadyJean
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 01:22 AM

Generally when I haven't had enough sleep, the furniture moves by itself. It doesn't do this if I've had a decent night's sleep, even if I'm running the vacuum, so I don't think the furniture really moves.
Shortly after mother died, when I was averaging 3 hours sleep a night, the supermarket was full of cat food. Every aisle had cans of catfood. They weren't really there, but I saw them.

Then there was the very sleepless trip I took with my friend Cecilia, at the last of it, I saw her in a black leather halter top. Let me assure you she wouldn't be seen dead in something like that. Then I saw a 20 foot high Confederate soldier on Shady Avenue. He hasn't been back there since. I think he was a telephone pole.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:02 PM

Dipwallow, dipwallow...

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Cruiser
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:44 PM

Dipwallow!

(Thanks again to LH)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:08 PM

You can say that again!

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Cruiser
Date: 30 May 04 - 09:00 PM

Dipwallow!

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 04 - 07:35 PM

I hear that, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:33 PM

Having met both doctors AND an Angel, I can say without any doubt whatsoever that I would put my trust in the Angels first. Doctors are like dogs and dandelions....they're a temporary phenomenon. Angels have staying power.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:14 PM

Sure that made you feel better! lol

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 04 - 05:40 PM

That's true. Three days in the hospital and I took a turn for the nurse.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:59 PM

Nurses are angels though

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:58 PM

Neither do I. I think doctors are among the most overrated individuals on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:42 PM

GUEST:

I don't BELIEVE in doctors.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Altcar
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:07 PM

Nonsense! Delusions! Go speak to your doctor if you believe in angels.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:55 AM

Thanks all for your contributions. Have decided to do some serious research on the subject but can see it is a very mixed bag of tricks.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 04 - 10:57 AM

Consider this, though...their lack of sleep may have been the very thing that lowered their normal state of conscious resistance or control, so to speak, so that they were open enough to see something real that we don't normally see. It's a possibility, specially when many people see the same thing.

It's not easy to break through barriers of perception. In many sacred traditions things like fasting and sleep deprivation were used to do precisely that, in a very purposeful way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 May 04 - 01:32 AM

There are stories told of soldiers in the first world war seeing angels. It should be noted that most of those men had gone withoug sleep for long periods of time when they claimed to have seen them. I've been a bad sleeper all my life, and I've seen some impressive things that I hope to gracious weren't really there.

Back in the sixties, the city of Pittsburgh started to build a bridge and ran out of money. For several years the "Bridge to Nowhere" spanned the Allegheny river, and came to an abrupt end.
One night some idiot got drunk and drove off the end. His car was totalled. He walked into the nearest emergency room, and said, "I just drove off the Bridge to Nowhere, you'd better check me out." He checked out fine.
No angels were seen, but the Lord looks after fools and drunkards.

There may be angels, but I have yet to encounter one. I'll be out in Homewood Cemetery today, dropping by the family plot. If I run across any there, that arent' stone or bronze, I'll tell them to go to mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 May 04 - 11:47 PM

yes, I understand there are manipulators and self deluders. and i don't have a random, open acceptance of every version of psychic phenomena that turns up.

but these things have happened and yes, I don't care when others disagree. I admire their reasons for disagreeing.

i enjoyed your post too Ebbie, and all your posts, come to think of it.

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 04 - 11:16 PM

Beautiful, freda. One gets to the place where it is all right when someone else doesn't accept the experience, huh. One knows. And in all likelihood, they too will know, eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo
Date: 28 May 04 - 09:18 PM

*grinz* Helpin' ya out there BB

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 04 - 09:05 PM

Pogo:

I'm trying...

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 May 04 - 09:04 PM

ta Pogo, and here's another one for you.

I had a close friend in the 80s who was a drama therapist from Chile, very handsome, very gay. He did some amazing work with disabled people in Australia, and was a pioneer of getting people off medication and into their life and creativity. His name was Aldo Gennaro, a documentary was made about his work (Stepping Out) including putting an an opera at the Opera House with people who have Downs syndrome.

For a while I was lucky enough to work with Aldo as his assistant, it was an incredible experience working with someone like him. He had a form of autism, and had gone into a Catholic monastery in Chile which offered a silent lifestyle. Aldo grew and changed and left the order, and came to Australia and worked with a range of disadvantaged or disabled people.

Anyway, one morning I woke up after a strange dream. I had dreamt I visited Aldo at his flat in Ashfield. Now Aldo's place was beautiful, walls painted white , beautiful paintings (by Aldo) and a large wall hanging on one wall. But in the dream, it had been stripped of all possessions, the walls were painted a sort of peach/pink colour, and there was nothing in there except for a dark purple scarf on the floor.

I went to work and phoned Aldo at his flat off and on during the morning, just to check in. At midday, another friend of his answered the phone. She was minding Aldo's flat - he was in hospital, at St Vincent's, seriously ill with a life threatening condition.

I went to visit him in hospital that afternoon. He was in a small, bare hospital room, painted a peach/pink colour, and he had tied a dark purple scarf tied on his bed head.

If I hadn't had that dream, I wouldnt have been alerted to his illness, and would not have been able to spend time with him before he died.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:49 PM

Okay I'll keep an eye out for it LH. I always enjoy furthering my theological knowledge :)

Can't be odder than the account of the young Jesus making little birds out of clay and bringing them to life.

Mebbe we oughter start a 'ligious thread and take these drifting topics to it...so this thread can keep on angels and not bother those wanting to talk about them

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:38 PM

freda very neat experience BTW :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:37 PM

No, it's more recent than the Apocrypha. It was written in the 1800's, and is quite fascinating. It intrigues me that people can accept the notion that something was written by revelation as long as it was written VERY LONG AGO...but will dismiss it instantly as if it was written in their own time.

People are strange critters.

I say...judge the message by the quality OF the message, not by its antiquity. If miracles can happen 2,000 years ago they can happen now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:34 PM

Is that considered part of the Apocrypha LH? I have flipped through some of the books in the Apocrypha...wild stuff especially the medieval texts talking about Jesus's childhood. The Book of Judith I enjoy greatly..

(still love my old King James version the best...I enjoy writing and the poetry of the language appeals to my writer's heart...A matter a personal taste)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:33 PM

I might get run over by a truck tomorrow. and if this happens, I won't think the angels were looking the other way. I will know its my time to go, and I will look forward to some help from them in moving on.

Twenty five years ago, on a Sunday evening, I got a phone call with some bad news. My close friend Julie, mother of four young children, had just died. She had been driving her car along a country road, and had looked behind her to the two young children in the back seat, we think. She was hit by a moving train, went into a coma and died. The two children were unhurt and were found wandering in a field nearby. Julie was in a coma for three days before dying.

Julie and I had previously shared a large house in Burwood in Sydney - three families lived communally. We shared cooking, childcare, and lots of good times. We had mulberry trees out the front and back, and made mulberry pies, crumbles, tarts and jam. She was an incredibly kind and good natured person, and a very good friend. At the time of the accident she had moved further north and was living in Queensland on a farm.

I cried for hours that night, in shock at the news, angry thoughts ripping through me about the injustice of her death, how would her husband manage with the kids on his own, and running a business, why someone like her was taken so young (early 30s) and why such a lovely person should die. Finally, in the early hours of the morning, I had cried myself empty of any other thoughts or feelings. I just lay in the darkness, exhausted, just sort of empty of anything.

The bedside radio next to me turned on (by itself) and I heard
julie's voice and felt her presence as some lovely classical music softly played on the radio. She said "don't worry, I'm fine, I'm fine".

I rolled over, turned the radio off, turned it on again and off again, just checking to myself that it responded to being switched on and off, & trying to work out why it turned on. I went and took two herbal sleeping tablets and went to sleep.

I found out a year later at a reunion of her friends that two other women had had similar experiences on the same night. One had walked into the backyard at night, and had seen Julie hovering in the air in front of her - Julie didnt say anything but extended comfort. This woman was extremely shocked as this did not fit in with her preconceptions, she didnt believe in ghosts, or angels.

The other was a young woman who had been a neighbour of Julie's in Queensland - Julie came to her and asked her to take care of the children. This young woman helped considerably with the childcare until Julie's father remarried a few years later.

Anyone not present can analyse these experiences however they want. But that is speculation which may be very logical and commendable. but I say after having an experience like this, it would be illogical for me to believe that Julie's life was over when she was hit by the truck.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:24 PM

And then read the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ, a very underrated book in most of Christendom... :-) (in my opinion, anyway) Who says "the Bible" is the ONLY Bible? I don't think it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:19 PM

*laffs* oh no...that'll get a whole new thread started...

Thank you Georgian I looked them up. To completely confuse you...I agree...Jesus was indeed Jehovah of the Old Testament

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:59 PM

Exodous 3-14....John 8 58...for you Pogo just as a start......

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:50 PM

:) I do Georgiansilver although I admit leapfrogged here and there...However I'm making a goal to read the Bible from beginning to end straight through. My favorite writers in the NT are Paul and Luke

" I and the Father are one " I take that as being one in mind and purpose not literally one being.

" Father forgive them for they know not what they do "

" This is my Beloved Son in who I am well pleased " when John baptized Jesus correct?

" Father into thy hands I commend my spirit "

" Father remove this cup from me..."

To me it makes more sense that He is speaking to God the Father rather than speaking to Himself or throwing His voice but this is just my view on things

back to angels :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:35 PM

The new testament, like ALL religious texts, can be used to prove whatever point one might want to. This is NOT even getting into the different translations that exist, each with it's own set of biasing errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:28 PM

Try reading your New Testament thoroughly Pogo and you may learn a thing or two about the trinity.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:54 PM

To add to the thing about those that do not get what they want even when they pray for it...Welll...I personally believe prayer is two-way reception...in order to get the answers you seek you must make sure your spiritual tuner is in the best possible working condition...and if you only get static then keep moving the attennae and have faith that eventually you'll catch the station you're so desperately seeking for...and be able to recognize that it is indeed WHAT you are looking for. Sometimes answers are very subtle or not quite what we were expecting.

Prayer should be more about communion with God. Sometimes you just need the strength to get through a trial more than to have the trial removed completely and sometimes you simply need to talk about anything and everything and feel that someone is listening. If our parents carried us around constantly while we were learning to walk...we'd never be bothered to try and take that first step. It's about the bumps and bruises, the process of learning.

Humans are built on hopes...if we did not have hope we would be sad creatures indeed.

Faith is a deeper knowledge...where the human mind fails to fully comprehend or understand something, where logic has no answer, faith steps in and takes over for sometimes our souls know what we cannot put into words...

My two cents {O)

Now for personal experience...my brother was driving home one night it had just been raining and my brother drives fast. He was on the highway and there were puddles. As he related the experience he says that someone suddenly spoke in his ear and said " Slow down " He was so startled he did and immediately hit a puddle that he could have fishtailed and gotten into a serious wreck over...had he been going faster. He came home so shaken he was crying and my brother is as far from the churchy type as it gets, although he is a good kid...and I've NEVER seen him cry about anything...

This might classify as angelic although I look at it more as a manifestation of the power of the Holy Spirit who is also a guide, a comforter and a protector (I believe BTW that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all separate entities...the three in one thing just doesn't cut it for me)