BS: Chiseling granite

Subject: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 01:04 PM

It's been a long, long time since I worked in the stonecutting trade. But I kind of thought I'd like to do some carving again, seeing as how I'm surrounded by mountains and rocks.

I know that I can use carbide-tipped chisels on granite. Can I use cold chisels, such as are used for work with metals? (I know where I can get stone carving tool kits, but I don't want to invest a lot until I regain what skills I used to have.)

I'd be working on granite and schist, as well as softer stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 01:41 PM

You can, but you will have to be prepared to sharpen them more often.

Don't do anything that isn't gneiss.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 02:55 PM

Rapaire - just chisel on the softer parts of the granite. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: GUEST, Anne Irritant
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM

Hey ... this is a folk forum, not rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:07 PM

Sharpening chisels used to be part of my job at the ol' tombstone shop. Boy, that was a gneiss job! A sharper bunch of chiselers you'd never want to meet -- and talk about being stoned! It rocked, lemme tell ya. And the customers were quiet, too. Never had one complaint from 'em. They'd take whatever we'd do lying down, heck, they were so laid back that the grass could grow over 'em, but they were a deep lot -- some were "whither thou ghost" sorts of course, but they all had spirit.




Want me to continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:16 PM

Ya know, Rapaire, you can be a real schistkopf sometimes...

Enjoy your new adventure! Be sure and empty your boots in the morning.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: open mike
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:18 PM

check out Kate Campbell's "album" monuments,
about a guy who makes grave stones out of discarded
chunks of sidewalk using a screwdriver as a chisel.
A labor of love by this guy:
The album's centerpiece, "William's Vision," is brilliantly composed as a conversation with tombstone maker William Edmondson, the first African-American to have a solo exhibition at New York's Museum of Modern Art (1937). Campbell ends the tune by succinctly summarizing Edmondson's source of inspiration and life's work: "William had
a vision / Straight from God in heaven / Pick up your hammer and chisel / And mark the graves of my children." Campbell's Monument has been hand-carved with much the same artistry that informed Edmond's work.
see: http://www.katecampbell.com

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:25 PM

Hey, I want to try sculpting, too. I've never done it. I have a nice chunk of red sandstone that I salvaged from a demolished building. Any advice? What kind of chisel should I use? What kind of precautions should I take? Being inexperienced and all, should I make a clay model first, to help me visualize what I want to carve? Should I practice on wood before I try stone? Should I buy a book?

I'd probably do something simple, like a lawn ornament, maybe a small ornamented pedestal for a flower pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:44 PM

Emeritus setting in, Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:45 PM

Jim,
you might want to take a class at the local college, art school or adult ed center.

But since it's sandstone - try a power sander.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:50 PM

Jim, if you're certain it's red sandstone, feel free to carve on it. But if it came from an old building, it might possibly be unpolished Minnesota Red.

Minnesota Red is a type of granite that was used on buildings, for gravestones, and so on early in the 20th Century. But like its companion granite, Minnesota Black, the quarries gave out. As a result, even a small piece is worth quite a bit of money -- no new granite means that you can't match the stones in Ye Olde Family Burying Plot unless you use recycled granite. Therefore, matching the stones means paying through the nose.

If I were you, I'd hie myself down to the public library and check out a book on stonecarving. Then fool around with scrap stone so you can get the feel of the tools, etc. before you start "for real."

Good quality sandpapers will serve well as final buffers. You needn't try to polish it (and if it's sandstone, you can't do much of a polish job anyway).

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 03:56 PM

Whoops! Jim, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS wear work gloves and eye protection when carving stone! If you're sandblasting or using a power grinder of any sort, add a dust mask and hearing protection too.

Stone chips in the eye or hand, loss of hearing, and silicosis aren't things to fool around with.

Block your work in place well, too. Your blanker (stone cutting work table) can be anything from a custom made bench to an old 55 gal. drum, but a heavy stone rolling off onto your feet hurts like...well, just like you think it would.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 04:24 PM

Good you pointed out all that OSHA stuff, Rapaire -- we wouldn't want Jim to take anything for granite.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM

Rapaire..Im a stonemason to trade, and this area of Scotland is full of grey and pink granite.
The best tool for trimming is a knapping hammer.Granite is very hard but quite workable.
The granite quarries round loch Fyne used to employ dozens of men cutting kerb stones,cobbles and dressed building stone.
Now the granite is crushed mechanically for road "mettle"
I still cut granite to build stone fireplaces for the "white settlers"
In my young days, built an alter for the RC chapel.
Cold chisles,with points are ok for carving,but the steel should be tempered by a blacksmith.Hard to find a real blacksmith these days
   Best Wishes Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 04:52 PM

Hey, thanks, ake!

Blacksmiths are around here -- I'm in horse 'n' cattle country (they also raise potatoes here). And I mean real blacksmiths, not only farriers.

Besides, my brother has a forge and the knowledge to temper the chisels. I'll make him do some work for a change.

As I said, it's been...it's been...forty years since I did this stuff! Forty years? That long? Doesn't seem that long.....

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 07:33 PM

I'm sure what I have is sandstone, not granite. Hard enough that it won't crumble in your hands, but softer than, say, a brick, I think. About the same color as red brick (but then, I suppose brick isn't always the same color, is it?). The building I salvaged it from was mostly brick but with a few bits in stone. The demolition company apparently wasn't making any effort to save the stone. Most of it was broken, heaped together with the brick, even those pieces with ornamental carving. That's why I felt OK "liberating" a few chunks.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:51 PM

Probably sandstone, then. Mind you, I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a couple of tons of Minnesota Red and Black. I wouldn't be set for life, but it would finance a trip or two.

Sandstone is easily carved, but be careful because a chisel slip can be anything from an annoyance to disaster because the stone IS so soft.

I'd start with surface relief until you get the hang of it, and then try carving in the round.

Makes me sad when old buildings are torn down without regard for carvings and such. Some things should be preserved -- and some of the carvings can be resold for more than a few dollars to restorers.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: HuwG
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 08:57 PM

Do you actually intend carving schist ? It is a metamorphic rock with a pronounced cleavage i.e. like slate, it will split more easily in one direction than in the other.

There are of course small carvings of slate, but anything ambitious could well fall into pieces along the cleavage plane.

I don't recall seeing any tombstones made of schist, though there are some made of slate in North Wales.

Gneiss is another metamorphic rock. It has bands of separate minerals, but less pronounced cleavage than schist. The best definition of gneiss I heard is, "Not gnasty".

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 09:07 PM

I'm no schisthead! I'll probably play with it a bit, but I actually have other stone in mind for actual carving. There's actually plenty of rock to choose from here, from igneous to pretty decent granite.

I freely admit that I am just fooling around with this. It's something I used to be able to do a bit of and which I want to try again. Besides, everybody must get stoned to really rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: HuwG
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 12:04 AM

<nitpick> Er ... granite is an igneous rock, though I'll allow that the other igneous rocks aren't always pretty or decent. </nitpick>

Have a look at this Geologists' Jokes site, and please forgive my pedantry.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 05:40 AM

When I did my blacksmithing course, I learned about tempering steel tools.

Briefly, you COULD use ordinary cold chisels, but

1) You should get them retempered to cut stone not metal.

2) You need different shapes and sizes from just the standard (metal cutting) cold chisels.

Tempering is not an overdifficult skill - (I was a natural at it!) - it involves watching the right colour run into the right place, and starting with the right sort of tool steel. The colour indicates the steel temperature.

If you look up the subject in a good library, you should be able with a little effort to handle it yourself, or better, try to find one of those Adult Ed blacksmithing courses if you can. If you are a sculptor (of any sort) being able to make and temper and sharpen your own tools is a good thing.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 06:59 AM

Now here`s a chance to get "traditional". Try the old bronze, iron and deer antler. The Colliseum, Parthenon, Stonehenge, not to mention the Pyramids. How they did it is astonishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:58 AM

G'day Rapaire,

If you really want to get your rocks off after the 40 years since you spent time turning large ones into small ones, don't tool around, get hold of The Complete Modern Blacksmith, by Alex Weygers - he gives you all the info on adapting cold chisels for stone carving, so you and they don't lose their temper. You'll find the book at Amazon.

As to details on current tools and techniques, check out Walter Arnold. He's got got a heap of guff and a bloody good eye for knowing which bits of rock to leave behind - and that's SERIOUS.

As to carving schist et=schistera - get a high-speed rotary carver - it's even grainier than the wood - Take note Jim Dion - stone and wood are totally different materials to carve.

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Chiseling granite
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:02 AM

I've given some thought to trying the old bronze-antler-iron tools. You could also use other rocks, espcially to create a lighter background (as was done by the American Indians among others, including those who lived around here).

Just for information: you can shatter stone by heating it in a fire and then, when it's very, very hot dashing cold water on it -- but stand somewhere safe if you do it. I do not recommend this method, but I've seen it done and it can be spectacular (and dangerous).

HuwG, I'm sorry that I was misleading. When I said "igneous" I meant the products of vulcanism, the rocks that abound around here in the malpais. This was and is a seismicly active area, with hot springs, cooled lava flows, and historic vulcanism. Yellowstone Park is about three hours away by road, as is Craters of the Moon National Park. There was quite an earthquake in 1983, and there was the Teton dam collapse some years before that. At work, in the library, everything over 48 inches high must either have an oversized base or be securely fastened to the walls. As I said, this area rocks.