BS: Legalize Pot?

Subject: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 10:16 PM

For years, Canadians have been calling for the legalization of marijuana. The govt. even tried growing medicinal marijuana in underground bunkers but it was declared 'bunk'. But now, amazingly enough, the Fraser Institute (a right wing think tank) has come out in favour of legalization. I can't believe it. Whats this all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 10:25 PM

Some damned hippy put on a tie.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 11:03 PM

sounds good to me....it never should have been illegal...now if they keep tight control of it and make money off it...like here in the states we have state ran liquor stores...

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 11:33 PM

cough...

oh, excuse me...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 12:06 AM

I only wish......

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 01:37 AM

@hy has it been illegal?

Easy - the government knew early on that ANYBODY can grow pot. You legalize it, and I'm planting a shit load in my back yard. It is indigenous in all 50 states, including Alaska, so I assume it'll grow in the ground just about anywhere in Canada.

It's easy to grow and easy to process.

On the other hand, alcohol takes work and frankly talent if you want the good stuff.

People would grow so much pot that the government wouldn't make any tax money on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 03:26 AM

Amos, you are SO funny!!!!! (And might be right!)..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: el ted
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 03:58 AM

Goodness! I never knew pots were illegal! I must get the servants to empty the kitchen straight away. Does this law apply to earthenware too?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 04:17 AM

(From The Sun Newspaper)....


Police to let England
fans smoke dope


From NICK PARKER in Portugal

ENGLAND fans will be allowed to smoke dope before Sunday's crunch clash with France — to keep them calm.

Cops in Lisbon plan to crack down on drunk supporters while turning a blind eye to those spotted puffing on a spliff.

Pot-smoking fans have been assured they will not be arrested, cautioned — or even have their drugs confiscated.

Last night experts said the Portuguese police's "Here We Blow" policy would reduce chances of a punch-up between rival fans.

Alan Buffry of the Legalise Cannabis Alliance said: "If people are drinking they lose control, if they smoke cannabis they don't.

"Alcohol makes fans fight. But cannabis smokers will be shaking hands and singing along together."

Dutch police used a similar policy in Euro 2000 and England's hooligan element were too stoned to fight.

A Lisbon police spokeswoman said: "If people cause a problem through drugs and become a menace then police will take action. But when this doesn't happen why should the police be the ones making the fuss?"

More than 600 officers will be on duty for England's opening group game at Lisbon's Stadium of Light.

Fans who seem to be drunk may be breath-tested and refused entry.




(We knew this was a good idea for a long time...but were just too stoned to mention it...xx..e)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 04:37 AM

So let me get this right, you want to encourage the younger generation to come into the folk arena and ALSO take drugs. I am amazed, do you openly encourage this within your homes, you are loosing the plot, or are you all born again hippies - grow up

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 04:46 AM

Ah GUEST. There you go, getting all upset...

Yup, I'm an aging hippy. Yup, I'd encourage young people to eat a little pot sprinkled over a nice spagetti marinara rather than any other drug out there, especially alcohol and cigarettes. If they feel they need to experiment and then go to a football game...or for that matter a folk session, I'd rather them a little stoned and mellow than a whole lot drunk and fighting angry.

All grown up and still of the same (sound) mind about pot..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Parent
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 05:01 AM

Always the same pathetic excuses for pot smoking.
It is the thin end of the wedge. If you don't think so try and explain that to parents who have a child that has died from heroin, especially when they tell you that the child started experimenting with pot.

Grow up and act responsibly

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 05:14 AM

If you are indeed that parent, I have nothing but sympathy for you. But the fact that some people go from one drug to another is more symptomatic of an addictive personality than it is a condemnation of one relatively harmless drug.

Many children experiment, that's the fact. I maintain that if pot were legalized that child would not have to be buying it from the same source that might be providing other more harmful drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 06:21 AM

Nobody starts with pot. We start with ice cream and lemonade and cola and move on to coffee, and perhaps tobacco and then maybe beer or wine, then perhaps pot...

Mormons draw the line there between lemonade and cola, Muslims draw it between tobacco and beer. Other people draw it between wine and pot, yet others between pot and...

Sensible people stick to a reasonable selection of substances which they've found suit them, and leave the others alone. I'd cut out the cola as well as the coke, avoid smoking, more especially tobacco, and run a mile from anything involving needles. But I don't see any value in having the law enforce my particular tastes rather than anyone else's.

Quite why this has all has got tied up with left-right issues puzzles me. Basically, it's an issue where the division is between authoritarian/libertarian, both of whom come in left wing and right wing varieties.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 07:27 AM

Apart from GUEST 'Parent', how many of the Yea-Sayers on this thread have children with a hard-drug habit? Hands up please.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 07:56 AM

I can see GUEST Parent's point but teenagers nowadays know what the dangers are surrounding drugs, and if they don't, it's not hard to find them out. There has been alot of T.V and radio advertising and loads of magazine articles over the last few years about the dangers and effects hard drugs can have on you. And if they don't know what they are being offered...the simple rule is to not take it!

However, back to the question in hand...yes..!!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 07:59 AM

Sweetfia - which question? There are two in hand at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:15 AM

Ok, my answer to wether we should legalise weed is ...yes.

The answer the other question...here's a clue...i'm not old enough to be a parent with a child old enough to take drugs!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:16 AM

Ah! Why am I not surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: el ted
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:17 AM

Me neither, and I'm her dad johnny!! She is 17 next week on the 18th.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:19 AM

Nobbut a lass Ted! I'll be kind to her :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:20 AM

Hey, i'm tougher than i look...just ask s6k!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:22 AM

Tough I can do wi'out! I've got Mrs. Johnny to contend with, and they don't come any tougher!
Cheers M'Dear, :0)
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: el ted
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:24 AM

You shouldn't know what it is Sophia. I will have to stop your pocket money!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:25 AM

Good, i'm glad to hear the wife is keeping the husband in check...and not the other way round...good on'ye Mrs Johnny!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:28 AM

I would love to voice my opinion on what you have just said Dad, but some may find the language offensive...so I will refain, for now.

Anyway, I make my own money, I have two jobs!!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:34 AM

Go for it girl! Sounds as though El Ted can afford to retire.
J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: el ted
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:41 AM

I have two daughters, so that's my pension plan sorted!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:42 AM

Cheers Johnny!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Guest #2
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:57 AM

Ellenpolly
I always enjoy your posts and would agree with you on this one if I hadn't seen my oldest son nearly kill himself (suicide) after "only" smoking pot 24/7 for about a year and a half during college.I suppose you can say the same about alcohol but the assumption that pot is totally harmless to all of us is a dangerous illusion.

As an addendum, my son is 2 years down the road, doing fine and we're all living happily ever after, but I wouldn't wish that hell on anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:08 AM

Sorry to hear about that Guest.

I once made my best friend choose between me and taking pills (E's) after i rang her up one moring after she's taken some(she'd been drinking too)...the come down was so bad she could hardly string a sentence together, she was so disorientated she stayed in bed all day...we're are still best friends today, thankfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:23 AM

In terms of the actual danger they cause and are capable of causing, far stronger cases can be made for criminalizing alcohol and tobacco. Hey, waitaminute, didn't we already try that? Yes we did, and look what happened. Prohibition spawned the growth of organized crime in America, and we are still fighting it. And it never stopped people from imbibing. And how many of our musical icons have smoked pot? Would the world be better off if they had gone to jail for it?

Any dangers surrounding the use of pot can much more easily be dealt with with it being legal and not having to complicate the situation with the whole legal machinery issue. I don't mean for a second that overuse is not a potential problem. Overuse of ANYTHING is a problem. You can even overdose on water, but SOME water is necessary for life. And from the "fighting" scenario painted above and growing anecdotal evidence about various medical conditions, we can say that the use of some pot in some cases is actually *beneficial* to some people.

The furor that keeps pot illegal (at least in the US) is totally irrational, and countering it takes measures outside of logical argument and weighing of facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: s6k
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:27 AM

tougher than she looks??? omg.... thats a understatement.
i still recovering from some of the damage incurred.

legalize pots - of course, what would we eat off otherwise?

legalize pot - yes. then people dont have to go to dodgy drug dealers to get it. also = alcohol is the most dangerous drug around and kills more people than cocaine, etc, each year.

so a little pot can be good, but having it once every hour or something, that would be bad

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Parent
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:34 AM

Sweetfia, you are lucky to be blessed with the understanding of life that you obviously have for your tender years, unfortunately others out there are not so lucky and need constant help and guidance, your friend for example (well done)

Ellenpoly, I to have read some of your posts and am also surprised at your stance and flipant comment "I'd encourage young people to eat a little pot sprinkled over a nice spagetti marinara rather than any other drug out there"

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:01 AM

I have known many people who liked the hard drugs...I never touched them....I have known people sent to insane asylum because of those drugs....I have known people sent to the emergency room because of those drugs either oding or having the the unfortunate circumstance of getting on the wrong side of some one on hard drugs...i have even known some one murdered over drugs...but none of it was over pot....it was all over crank, cocaine (and crack), and heroin...

legalise pot and use the funds for healthcare...and for proper education and treatment against the harder drugs. Like i said the state can grow it's own...and sell it in state ran stores..while keeping a tight clamp on those attempting to grow it for other than personal use...

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:05 AM

GUEST, Parent - I suspect we are kindred spirits. If you're a member posting as a guest in order to preserve your anonimity, feel free to PM me and I'll expand on that.

If not, let me say I share your views and with very good reasons. I'll be very interested to see how many responses I get to my earlier question, and what they are.
J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:06 AM

At least if it were legal, we could stick a great big health warning on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: rhoda horse
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:10 AM

I am a Centaur from Greek Mythology and have no need for such simple earthly pursuits.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:14 AM

And a talking stuffed toy (baggy and a bit loose at the seams) who is friends with a banjo playing toad and some mice has no need of such substances.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:36 AM

GUEST (anonymous) - what good would that do? We put big health warnings on fag packets, as well as adverts on telly showing blocked-up arteries and people dying of lung cancer and emphysema, but the pillocks still practise their filthy, antisocial, suicidal habit.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 11:47 AM

I would like to get really clear with both Guest 2 and Guest Parent:

I was also a pot smoker in college. Fortunately, I do not have an addictive personality, and therefore never took any drug to excess, though I tried more than just grass.

I was also clinically depressed, and though I never attempted suicide, I certainly thought about it a lot. Ingesting pot did not make me more suicidal, but it certainly made me think more introvertedly. Can that in itself cause someone to kill themself? I seriously doubt it and I've been in therapy and studied depression for the past 35 years.

With what you have said about your poor son at college indicates to me that his depression and his marijuana intake were not proven to be directly connected, either medically or psychologically. Again, if the proof was out there, REAL proof, then it would have been in a lot of medical journals by now. It simply isn't.


I have also, by the way, never offered grass to a young person, and I doubt I ever would. The reason isn't that I have ever been afraid of what grass does to me, but I can't know what grass or any other drug will do for another. Therefore I would not want to be responsible for another person's ability or inability to handle it.

If I sounded flippant to you, well, I guess it was meant to be. But only because of what I feel is an unjust uproar mostly instigated by powerful folk in the Food and Drug Administration, along with the government that has a huge amount of taxpayers money tied up in their Drug Enforcement Agency, especially in other countries. It is not to their benefit to have their cash cows removed, which is exactly what would happen if marijuana were legalized.

Believe me, if this subject were either about smoking cigarettes (you notice that I talk about ingesting grass, not smoking, which has to my knowledge, never been connected with any kind of lung disease) or about drinking alcohol, my tone would be a heck of a lot more serious. I've seen the DIRECT result of those excesses both physically and mentally on dear (dead) friends.


This is a subject that I have had an intense argument with one of my dearest friends (and a fellow mudcatter). He has also had his own personal story as to why he despises marijuana, and again, I am deeply sorry for his pain. But to him, and to the both of you, I say again...

This is a herb which when used in moderation (as all things need to be) has not been proven to be harmful. From my own experience I agree. That there will be others, young and old, who will have a bad experience either because they were incapable of using this or any other drug for either physical or psychological reasons, can not be laid at the doorstep of pot.


PS-I'm very relieved that your son is now "clean and sober". I also hope he is or was in therapy to help him remain that way.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 12:29 PM

Ellenpoly, a lot of what you say is well-reasoned and well presented (can you sense the 'but' coming?), BUT is the fact that you personally used Cannabis without any ill effects and without feeling the need to move on to 'harder' drugs sufficient justification for unleashing it on the wider public? A great many drinkers and smokers practise their drinking and smoking for considerable periods without suffering any ill effects, but would you use that as an argument for encouraging the consumption of alcohol and tobacco? (Before I go any further, I'd also say that I would like to see greater controls on the use of alcohol and tobacco, both of which I regard as very dangerous substances).

I know the 'Elderly Hippy' element here on Mudcat will come out with teeth and claws bared (like I give a shit) when I say this but, as an ex-Youth Worker, and as the parent of a young man for whom cannabis, by his own admission, was the gateway drug to his amphetamine and, subsequently, heroin addiction, I firmly believe that greater control, not relaxation, is what's needed, together with a much tougher approach to the detection and prosecution of those who deal in all illegal drugs, cannabis included. The current move to liberalisation is an open admission by those in power that they've given up on the drugs issue, and on the misery of those caught up in it.

I asked my question about Yea-saying parents/druggie children deliberately and I'm not surprised that no-one has responded. Ask any parent of a young person who's addicted to illegal drugs what their view is of the relaxation of the cannabis laws and I can almost guarantee you what their answer will be. At the end of the day they know, by their experience, the sad truth and no amount of flippancy or intellectual argument will make it different.

I respect you and your views, you're perfectly entitled to believe whatever you wish, and I'm in agreement with you regard to the medicinal benefits of cannabis, but I'm afraid we have to differ otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 12:55 PM

"unleashing it on the wider public?"

Do you realize that most estimates figure that 40% of Americans have tried it already? And that's with the "War on drugs" that is going on. Exactly what do you consider the "wider pblic" to be?

Please.


If pot is a "gateway drug" why do so few choose to enter through that gate, and of those that do, few actually continue beyond experimenting.

You may think your "feelings" are valid, but you ignore scientific proof. How sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST, Reverend Jim
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM

You can rationalize anything. It's not called dope for nuthin. I think. What were we talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 01:33 PM

Most opponents of drug use in general are loathe to concede that the best antidote to substance abuse (of legal AND illegal substances) is the love of friends and family, and treatment and education, if necessary. At the same time, we must accept that no one makes it out alive, and that whether it is drugs or whatever other problem, some people will fall off the bottom no matter what is done.

So I pose the questions: How is imprisoning drug users more effective at limiting drug use than treatment, education, and caring? Additionally, what does society gain by limiting drug use?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 01:37 PM

Seems to me there are a lot of people here need to see the movie "Grass"

"This film explores the history of the American government's official policy on marijuana in the 20th century. Rising with nativist xenophobia with Mexican immigration and their taste for smoking marijuana, we see the establishment of a wrong headed federal drug policy as a crime issue as oppposed to a public health approach. Fuelled by prejudice, hysterical propaganda and political opportunism undeterred by voices of reason on the subject, we follow the story of a costly and futile crusade against a substance with questionable ill effects that has damaged basic civil liberites"

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 01:42 PM

But it's not just banned in the USA, just about everyone else bans it, excluding the Netherlands where it is restricted. Why did they ban it?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 01:49 PM

"Greater control" of a drug is in practice the opposite of prohibition. Ineffective efforts at total prohibition - and they are always ineffective - means that there is no control whatsoever. No control on purity, no control over the circumstances in which they are used, no control on the age at which they are used.

It just doesn't work. It's been given an awfully long time to see if somehow it might start to work. It's time to stop pretending, and try it another way.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Well, yeah.
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 01:52 PM

Yes. Choice on this matter should be legalized. Antisocial activity is what should be illegal. There is nothing antisocial about a person choosing in their own privacy or out in the open air to smoke pot. It doesn't hurt other people.

Antisocial activity is activity that hurts other people in some way, damages their property or impinges upon their freedom. Smoking pot does none of the above. Driving stoned might cause a problem...accordingly, don't prohibit the smoking of pot, prohibit driving under the influence. Same basic approach as with alcohol.

If you wish to protect people against themselves...then you would have to also outlaw laziness, willful ignorance, overeating, sleeping too much, staying up too late, being promiscuous, wasting valuable time doing valueless things, etc...

And it would be very silly, wouldn't it? And effectively unenforcable on a broad basis...just like the silly antimarijuana legislation is. You don't have the right to legally force other people to be like you, just because you think you are better than they are in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 02:17 PM

The only reason that I can see..to show itself for legalising pot is that the life of the authorities might be made easier...and a few who have medical needs.
Perhaps the question to be asked here is who actually "needs" it and why?.
Having pursued a career..first in the Police Force, then Child Care, I have seen the results of the "gateway" drug...and you cannot convince me that it is not!!!!!!! leading people on to other things and ultimately addiction and death for some.
To those of you who are giving your views on here.....Have you actually seen a death due to heroin, cocaine or amphetamine....I have seen the horrific circumstances of all three, and on questioning friends/relatives..I find that the "victims" started on pot!!!!. I do not care what figures you can come up with which are published by whoever....figures can be fixed....some of you need to experience first hand the damage...then perhaps you could climb off your all-knowing soap boxes and face the reality of this sorry, selfish world we live in.
Strollin'johnny..glad to see there's someone on here talking sense.
Be Blessed.