BS: Legalize Pot?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 08:25 PM

You got the Washington, DC refer-endum all wrong, Donuel... Everyone knew the results but Wsahington D.C., like Iraq, is an occupied territory... Oh sure, they have a mayor and city council and can do some things but if the Congressional Review Board don't like what's going down they have the ultimate veto power... Yep, purdy screwed up system and if anyone is thinking democracy here, firget it... Won't find it in D.C.... Sho nuff won't...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 07:25 PM

Donuel, I have some slight interest in this point as well, having had glaucoma most of my life. As you will see from the thread, I'm in favour of pot being treated much the same as other recreational drugs, but as I understand it, any clinical benefits have yet to be proven, and the potential side effects are not fully researched. (Apart from the obvious ones!)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 06:34 PM

Wash DC passed a referendum for medical pot.
Problem is the Congressman from Georgia was able to hide/deny the results of the DC election for 2 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 04:41 PM

Donuel,

Many of us, including me for certain, that do not want pot legalized for general use welcome marijuana as a legal drug for prescribed medicinal use only. It should be no different than codeine, morphine, etc.

Good luck,
Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 03:58 PM

Hasn't the UK decriminalized Pot?

I have Fuch's Syndrome. I know it has a funny name but similar to Glaucoma in that swelling in the eye causes me temporary blindness from time to time, I would like to determine if pot would help me.

Problem is, in the repressive regieme I live under, my family could lose the house, savings and child custody if the police had the excuse of finding pot here.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM

Martin -

You said, "And yes, it can lead to harder drugs. My pot smoking crowd (who thankfully like myself has grown up and out of it) did occassionally harbor the opportunity to try other things like coke and acid. Someone in pot smoking group will always be the one to do the introducing of other drugs."

Right. So the main problem is obviously (in my opinion) not the substance itself...the problem is the people you choose to hang out with while acquiring and taking the substance...and your own attitude toward things in general, which was my point.

Pot is not the problem. People's addictive attitude toward things is the problem. Some people are inclined toward substance abuse and abuse of their health and doing reckless things. Those people will find something else harmful to injest or do in the absence of pot...and they do. It's often something much more harmful than pot.

The important thing is not to allow it to be mass marketed. You cannot stop people from casually acquiring, growing, and using marijuana with ANY law, unless you wish to assign a cop to watch every single citizen 24 hours a day, which is not possible. Anyway, someone else would have to watch the cop! :-) Cops sometimes deal illegal drugs too.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM

Martin Gibson:

Thanks for coming clean (in more ways than one!)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 12:34 PM

Sorry. That sounds quite bad, and it's a little strong. I'll clarify. If the law can't protect my kids, I will. There. That's better.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 12:29 PM

One more thing before I melt away into life. The person who offers hard drugs to either of my children will have great difficulty walking on two broken legs.

I live in a town that has a major methamphetamine problem. Problem is that the cops can't do a helluva lot about it. I was given a dirty look when I suggested that a few of us with baseball bats could help some wayward dealers see the error of their ways. Oh, well. When it comes to my kids, I will call the ambulance after the little talk.

And those who are about to tell me about the law: yeah, I've heard that one before.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 12:18 PM

I agree with Martin. Not that I ever did stuff like that--smoke, etc. But if I did ever smoke, I haven't for over two decades now.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:26 AM

Good arguements overall. But with the sake of sounding repetitive, I used it for 20 years and have abandonded it for the last 10.

It's very over rated as an enhancement to life and is bad for your health.

And yes, it can lead to harder drugs. My pot smoking crowd (who thankfully like myself has grown up and out of it) did occassionally harbor the opportunity to try other things like coke and acid. Someone in pot smoking group will always be the one to do the introducing of other drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:20 AM

A tern is a bird. Why are people getting them stoned?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:20 AM

Well, LittleHawk, I think you're right. The Fraser Institute is recommending legalization so that it can be taxed. Its just another idea for generating revenue so the laws would not be as open as you would wish. I agree - it should not be marketed. That way, personal use or growing it would be legal but it would still be illegal to sell it. There wouldn't be much of a market if they did that so it probably won't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: pdq
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 10:41 AM

arr terns rHub-isdh?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 10:06 AM

Yeah, I always figured the name "dope" was perfect to describe those who used the stuff regularly. :-) I never in my life saw so much needless importance given to anything else as to dope by two diametrically opposite sets of people...

Dope-smokers and cops! They could've both spent their time more usefully on almost anything else whatsoever, I figure.

I think the whole situation is just ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Leave No Tern Unstoned (Throw Rocks at Them)
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 09:53 AM

"leave on turn unstoned".

pdq must have been stoned on Pot. That is why people call it DOPE!

Just kidding pdq we all make typos!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 08:53 AM

One thing I should probably clarify here. I would be in favour of legalizing pot...IF it were done responsibly...but it wouldn't be!

Here's what I mean.

The responsible way to legalize pot would be to pass laws as follows:

You can legally grow and privately use your own pot on your own property...BUT...you can't sell it to the general public or market it through any licensed business whatsoever. Nor can you put it in a fancy package, advertise it, or give it any brand name.

You can use it, but you can't deal it.

This would put the power, and the decision back in the hands where it belongs, the hands of ordinary people.

The power is presently mostly in the hands of organized crime.

I know perfectly well that if pot were made legal the business community would leap joyfully at the opportunity to mass market it to the ordinary public, and that would undoubtedly have bad effects on society in a wider sense.

Do I think that this money-driven society would actually be responsible enough to enact such laws as I have described?????

No! I am sad to say that I don't think the politicians are that responsible. I think they would reward the highest bidder, by allowing big business to market the stuff. They always reward the highest bidder. That is the central sickness of this whole society. Money in the hand RIGHT NOW is seen as more important than life, health, Nature, or a viable future for mankind on this planet.

Therefore, given the prevailing idiocy of our society and our governments...I would not recommend totally legalizing pot at this time (sigh)...even though it's not very harmful to most people and helpful to some.

What I WOULD recommend is totally de-criminalizing personal use of pot (in private) and possession of small amounts of pot for personal use!!!! And I would de-criminalize growing small amounts of it on private property for personal use.

Simple.

What I would do, however, my stupid government is highly unlikely to ever do, because they are after money and power, not sanity and responsibility. They do not serve, they dominate, lie, and exploit.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 07:49 AM

Or maybe "no tern unstoned"?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: pdq
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 12:52 AM

As the ornithologist said, as he tossed pot leaves to the nesting sea birds: "leave on turn unstoned".

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 12:30 AM

It would NOT be a good idea to legalize pot.

Those that "need" it can already get (it) or better for free.

Those that recreate with it....can grow their own....if it is important enough to them.

Sincerely.
Gargeoyl

The economy distribution system works weel as it is.....why try to "fix" it......(Worst phrase from a government agent, "Hi....I'm from the federal government....and I'm here to help."

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Cruiser
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 05:27 PM

NO!

I would do away with tobacco and alcohol but we all know that could never happen. I just don't understand why adults want to put those harmful substances in their bodies.

(I drank and smoked some as a kid...how could I have been so stupid! I never did drugs...even as a kid I was smarter than that).

If you smoke anything, drink alcohol to excess, overeat, and especially do "drugs" you are stupid. Your stupidity costs the taxpayers and I do not want to pay for your self indulgence. Exert a little self control and think of the consequences of your actions on yourself, your family, and society.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Sweetfia
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 04:19 PM

Well, the thing is, wether it's illegal or legal people will still smoke/eat weed for years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 03:22 PM

Well I was dragged away from the screen, and Little Hawk posted some real common sense before I got chance to submit my earlier message - otherwise I would have referred to it, ar at least tried to avoid being repetitive. Good one, Goerge (LK. Likewise Blackcatter.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:12 PM

People use drugs, hard or otherwise, because they take them for granted (due to the fact that their peer group sees it that way) and they want to fit in with their peers. And they want to fill an inner psychological emptiness. They also often use drugs because they grow up seeing their parents doing it (legally or otherwise). If they want to rebel against their parents, they will simply use a DIFFERENT drug, that's all. Addicted parents raise addicted children, in many cases. 99.9% of the public IS addicted to some substance.

When you make those drugs illegal you (1) harm and harass the victims (the users) and (2) provide the criminals (the dealers) with a tremendously lucrative trade which they will pursue vigorously. The major dealers command big financial power in society...accordingly they will cleverly lobby politicians to KEEP the illegal drugs illegal because it is to their benefit.

They are unwittingly assisted in the meantime by morally concerned people in the ordinary public who think that a law against a drug will stop people from using it! It won't, as has been amply demonstrated over and over again.

The law should never persecute the user, but should go to the source (in the case of hard drugs). In the case of marijuana the law should allow people to grow it and use it privately, but not mass market it as, for example, cigarettes are mass marketed. In other words, no brand names, no packaging, no licensed businesses, no advertising...just allow private individuals to grow it and use it privately if they want to (any fool can do it, I assure you...it's so easy)...OR....provide it through a regulated governmental agency for good medicinal purposes (of which there are several).

No fancy packaging...plain transparent baggie...no brand names...no advertising...no mass marketing.

The criminal element would not be able to push it any more. The big business community would not be able to legally push it, like they do cigarettes. The ordinary people who already choose to use it anyway would continue to do so without legal harassment. The police would have more time for stuff that actually matters.

Many police officers would oppose my ideas as set out above. Why? Because, like other people, they are creatures of habit. Many would support my ideas too. Depends on how mentally flexible they are, that's all. It's not easy to break old mental habits.

I don't smoke marijuana. Why would I? It smells bad and I don't like inhaling smoke in the first place. Plus, the "high" doesn't impress me. I leave other people alone to make their own decisions, and I appreciate it when they leave me alone to make mine. I don't need cops or laws to protect me from marijuana, nor does anybody else. What people need is a stable home life, a sense of purpose, some self-esteem, and a good grasp on reality. The long arm of the law is not going to give it to them.

The law can't make people good or wise...it can only restrain those who have totally lost control of their moral and ethical behaviour towards others. It should restrict its activities to doing that and otherwise leave people alone.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 11:14 AM

I don't suppose others will have been confused (witness Dianavan's point: "...if they would make it legal to grow and possess, it would take a big swipe out of organised crime"), but for Georgiansilver's benefit I will just re-explain the third paragraph of my earlier post. I was pointing out that the criminalisation of drugs has very unpleasant consequences, exactly as prohibition did in an earlier age. He should know this from his police experience.

Maybe Strolling Johnny has let emotion cloud his judgment, but he seems to have confused the issue of criminalisation with the issue of drugs abuse. There is no inconsistency in opposing the first and wanting to discourage the second. They are separate issues, as his own family experience demonstrates. For the fact is that his son got himself into a mess even though what he claims to have been the so-called gateway drug was criminalised.

Johnny should face the simple (and I would have thought unarguable) fact that many people experiment with pot, or for that matter use it regularly long-term, without ever going where his son went. And for people like his son - ie those who, for whatever reason, need protection or support - the outlawing of cannabis is of no help.

Johnny's family experience is obviously an unhappy one, but it is no basis on which to frame laws that affect everyone. In a few days' time a pal will be staying who has smoked pot regularly for at least 35 years. It has caused him no problems and he has caused no-one else any problems in all those years. Face it Johnny: criminalising him or his suppliers doesn't help your son one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 11:08 AM

John,

First of all I don't have kids so let me say "no" to that question.

Secondly, like Ellen, I'm very sorry about what had happened. And no one truly understands that kind of hell until they go through it.

Thirdly you are right, in the western world, the vast majority of of heroin and cocaine uses "start" with pot. But that still doesn't mean that pot should continue to be illegal. It is truly a tiny percent of pot users that go on to be addicted to "hard" drugs.

There are people who:

never tried pot.
tried it once or a few times and stopped.
used it occasionally for a few years and stopped.
used it regularly for a few years and stopped.
used it regularly for years - maybe they haven't stopped.
used it and also tried heroin or cocaine once or a few times and stopped.
used it and also tried heroin or cocaine for a few years and stopped.
used it and also used heroin or cocaine at a level that would be considered to be addiction.

Each of the above levels decreases in size from hundreds of millions down to thousands. And that doesn't include people who abuse illegal drugs like amphetamines and barbituates, because a great deal of those users do not "start" with pot.

Also, heroin use in other parts of the world has little connection with pot. So thousands of people do not "need" pot to be willing to use other drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

Johhny...if cannabis didn't exist at all, hard drug users would still find and use hard drugs. The reason that cannabis sometimes leads to hard drugs IS because cannabis, like hard drugs, is illegal...and that results in it being pushed by the same criminals who push hard drugs.

If you make it legal, the criminals are no longer in the picture, and the cannabis user does not encounter them, and is far less likely to be OFFERED the hard drugs.

It's that simple.

Cannabis doesn't lead to hard drugs...contact with criminal dealers leads to hard drugs. The important thing in life is your own attituded and who you hang out with...bad company leads to bad results.

Cannabis in itself is not the cause of the problem. Illegality of cannabis is the cause of the problem. If it were not illegal, it would be considered no more remarkable in people's lives than tea or coffee, in my opinion...and drinking too much coffee DOES badly damage some people's health. I gave up coffee 10 years ago, and it was the hardest struggle I ever had to quit something in my life. The benefits to my health were considerable.

I don't smoke anything, I barely drink at all, I take no drug except the very occasional aspirin for a headache, I avoid caffeine drinks, I look 15 to 20 years younger than most people my age, I don't appear to have any substance-related addictions, but I am in favour of legalizing the use of marijuana and I regard the argument that it "leads to hard drugs" as totally spurious and misguided, given what I have personally witnessed between the late 60's and now...during which I had the opportunity to witness thousands of people who casually or regularly used: cannabis, tobacco, alcohol, caffeine drink, and various other common drugs.

Hanging around drug dealers and hard drug users is what leads to hard drugs!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 10:37 AM

Our guidline for what is legal and what is not should be whether something harms another, and not the emotional aspect of the act. Driving stoned should be illegal, just as driving under the influence of alcohol is. Driving under the influence of distraction of reading, putting on makeup, eating a super-size, disciplining children, or talking on cell phones should also, because they endanger others.

Smoking pot, while it may cause collateral suffering in those who care about the smoker is not an action that demands a legal sanction. Operating the remote control stoned, ordering two pizzas for everyone in the room, or laughing insanely at something that is most definitely not funny are not examples of things society needs to be protected from.

Laws against pot have proven to be ineffectual and more support for the organized crime infrastructure than they have been at actually stopping pot smoking. How does society benefit from those laws? Is someone with a pot "problem" better off facing jail time *in addition* to having a substnance problem? Why can't society strike a balance and accept that people sometimes like to be intoxicated, that it is enjoyable, and that most of its members can imbibe ocassionally without the social fabric coming apart? I think it is less economic, although it IS that, than it is puritanical, although it is hard to understand in that regard how booze is legal. And don't forget, either that many sexual acts that involve neither minors nor coerced participants are also illegal.

The arguments against legalization here have all been emotional, not a good foundation for laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 10:21 AM

Glue. Gas(oline) or what the British call petrol. Alcohol. Cafeine. Nicotine. Money. Power. Abused prescription drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 09:51 AM

John, I'd just like to suggest that you stop blaming yourself for your child's decisions. Once people have passed the "age of reason" (usually around age 7) they do think for themselves. If parents know they've done everything in their power to steer their child in the right direction, and that child insists on harming themselves anyway, it's not because of the parent. I think it's because that young person needs to learn some very important lessons about the behavior in question.

And some people just can't take someone elses's word - especially a parent's - for anything. They seem to need to learn things "the hard way", unfortunately. If your child is like this, there's nothing you can do about it except love him anyway and GO EASY ON YOURSELF!

And this reminds me of something I heard from a spiritual healer down in Atlanta last fall ...

"If it contains blame, shame or judgement, it's not yet the Truth"

I like it so much I use it as an affirmation whenever I find myself filled with negative thoughts about myself or anyone else. It really brings me relief, mentally and emotionally.


People attach to drugs, alcohol, running, or excessive shopping because this attachment is predictable to them and it provides what they can not find with other human beings.

When these attachments begin to fail to provide a haven from the pain of human attachments human beings may be brought back into engagement with one another. Love usually does this best. If only for oneself...

harpgirl, according to my own personal experience, you are absolutely right. Except that the Love that "cured" me did not come from another human being. I don't think there's a human being on the planet that could have given me the kind of unconditional love I needed at that point in my life!

It came from within, from my own spiritual Self, as I was trying out a new spiritual exercise for the first time. That experience was awesome - I'd never known such a warm all-encompassing Love in all my life! It seemed to eradicate all desire to get high, I just didn't need it anymore.

I love what you've said. Love rules!! :-)


I'm sure that it is an emotional issue for some of you but its obvious that the "war on drugs" shouldn't include pot. All it does is create a lucrative black market.

dianavan, I couldn't agree more.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 07:44 AM

Ellenpoly, thanks for your sentiments - you're so right in that it is the hardest thing to see your flesh and blood suffer in this way, but in your defence of Cannabis as a harmless substance you are wrong, wrong, wrong, and I can assure you that, if you were in my position, you would curse it and those misguided fools who defend it, just as I do.

It's nothing to do with simply 'picking on' Cannabis as a convenient handle on which to hang the blame (I blame myself, but that's another, private, story). The pot-heads can deny until they're blue in the face, but it won't alter the truth - hard-drug abusers seldom start with the hard drugs, they seldom start with alcohol, they almost always start on the stuff that's held out to them as harmless fun, Cannabis. I've had a lot of experience with these people as a Youth-Worker, I've watched their careers in drugs start with pot and slowly (or sometimes unbelievably quickly) move to other substances.

Why do you feel that my anger (which isn't actually anger, more a deep all-consuming sadness) prevents me from seeing what's right in front of my face? The fact that I've witnessed the dreadful things that users of this 'harmless substance' can and do progress to makes it far easier for me to see the truth than those who have never been through it. I'm not blinded by the irrational love affair you people have with Cannabis, I see it for what it is - a wolf in sheep's clothing for which there's no other reason for its consumption other than to disturb one's brain activity (yes, it does that for medicinal purposes too, and I'd accept its use when prescribed by a doctor for a medical condition).

If you've been a Cannabis-user (in the non-medical sense) and you got away with it, didn't get hooked in to 'harder' stuff, I'm glad for you - you were lucky. But some, too many, don't.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 05:46 AM

Strollin Johnny, like dianavan I can really feel your pain through this thread.

Of course you're angry and trying to find the cause of what happened to your child. Of course it would be the best thing if you could find the culprit and give it the name of pot. I do understand this, but it must also be clear that you are coming from a highly emotional place, and would not perhaps be the best voice of disinterested reason.

The description you gave;

"experience sitting by the hospital bed of their son who's just been revived by the paramedics after a huge O/D, or watching helplessly while they go through the 'Rattle' of withdrawal, sweating, screaming, spewing yellow puke, convulsing. The only unpleasant thing they don't usually do is shit themselves, because they don't eat so there's no shit.

..is not the description of a person on marijuana, and that's the point. The "harmless spliff" you mentioned is still just that. The need to connect it is because you need to have an explanation for what is the sad end product of your son's self-destructive behavior.

There are no other hands going up here for others who have experienced first-hand what you went through, and for that I'm deeply grateful. No on would wish this on another soul, and no one would wish you to feel the torment of seeing your dear child suffering.

But for the same reason that there are vengeful people all around the world who have in some way been hurt by circumstances, whether it be war, or drugs, or some other tragedy in their lives, and live with the anger of not being able to change what has happened; to be able to get beyond the pain and back to a clear and unemotional detachment about this subject may never be possible for you.

In the end, we make our choices in life, and we live (or die early) with them. Again, I can only say for me, and all those I personally know or have talked with about this, the fault lies not in the herb, but in ourselves.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 05:18 AM

Dianavan, I'm sorry, I was sitting here munching my Saturday Breakfast relaxing bacon sarnie and re-reading recent posts and I realised I'd mis-understood your first sentence. By 'Our children' I assumed, perhaps stupidly, that you meant 'The children of North America', and my first paragraph of my reply was therefore completely inappropriate. Sorry about that - must have been the adrenalin rush!

Incidentally, in the UK at the moment there's a big debate going on about the supply of alcohol - we have a big problem with alcohol abuse and its attendant problems of violence and anti-social behaviour, especially in town- and city-centres. You may know that the sale of alcohol is controlled here by 'licensing hours' which specify the number of hours in the day that licensed premises can sell it (pretty well all day up to 11 pm). The liberalisers are suggesting that drunkenness and loutish, violent behaviour can be prevented by removing the control offered by licensing hours - i.e. allow people to buy alcohol for longer, and they won't get drunk! Pretty radical eh? And pretty naive. The same kind of naivety that the 'legalise pot' brigade suffer from.

J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 04:32 AM

If you believe your first sentence Dear Dianavan, you're guilty of crass self-deception. Just may be true in Alaska - that the right place? - but I assure you it's going on in lots of other parts of N. America, and it certainly feels as though it's endemic in the UK - and they don't have "Smack-Head" tattooed on their foreheads!.

Thanks for the sympathy Dianavan (genuinely, I mean it, thanks), but I spilled the beans about my boy as a warning to the dopes (what an appropriate word!) who think pot's like vegetarian Smarties (another appropriate word), not to get the sympathy vote. Not that I expect them to listen, none are so blind as they who will not see, or are so clever that they have to gainsay anything that highlights their own fallibility.

Thanks also Georgiansilver, like you I've seen first hand the eventual results of playing with the cannabis fire, and having it rage out of control. Maybe some of these people should experience sitting by the hospital bed of their son who's just been revived by the paramedics after a huge O/D, or watching helplessly while they go through the 'Rattle' of withdrawal, sweating, screaming, spewing yellow puke, convulsing. The only unpleasant thing they don't usually do is shit themselves, because they don't eat so there's no shit. And it all started with a 'harmless' spliff.

Have a happy life in La-La Land guys, must be nice there.

I'll ask the question no-one dares to answer one more time. How many of the Yea-Sayers on this thread are a parent of a child with a hard-drug habit?

Or I'll pose a different question which, hopefully, might draw a better response - if anyone out there reading this thread has a child with a hard-drug habit, what drug would you say from experience was their intial entry-point into habitual drug abuse?

Anybody want me to make a prediction?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 03:45 AM

If you don't see hands up maybe its because our kids don't do hard drugs.

I sympathize with anyone who has to endure the torment. It must be very painful.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:57 AM

I repeat my question which, predictably, no-one has yet deigned to answer. It's in non-joined-up writing so that the pot-heads have a chance of understanding it:-

How many of the Yea-Sayers on this thread are the parent of a child with a hard-drug habit? Hands up please.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: harpgirl
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 12:10 AM

"The addictive personality" is a pejorative, meaningless, and utterly useless term, in my view.

People attach to drugs, alcohol, running, or excessive shopping because this attachment is predictable to them and it provides what they can not find with other human beings.

When these attachments begin to fail to provide a haven from the pain of human attachments human beings may be brought back into engagement with one another. Love usually does this best. If only for oneself...

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 11:49 PM

My guess is that if they would make it legal to grow and possess, it would take a big swipe out of organized crime. It won't do any good to try to tax it because its so easy to grow there would be no market.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 11:12 PM

the addictive personality will find something to ingest or sniff or shoot up...(remember banana skins & Morning Glory seeds?)...Pot is a minor problem. You CANNOT ban & stop everything that might be abused by fools.

I don't care...leave it illegal if you want, but make the penalty a fine for being high in public...no more 40 years sentences for a guy selling a bag to a cop who entraps him!...Or make it legal IF you buy good stuff from the govt. with taxes added on...right after they ban tobacco!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:35 PM

A major campaign in Congress to wipe from the books any crime for which a victim could not be individually identified and the damage somehow quantified would go a LONG way to stabilizing and clarifying our insane legal code.   A crime without a victim is no crime at all, and that should be simple enough for even a DC slide rule to count up.

Ain't a-gonna happen this week, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:28 PM

Actually, why stop at pot? Why not remove all "victimless" crimes from the books? No, I'm not saying that we should encourage folks to do these things but we certainly have more pressing issues in our society than to messin' wid folks who ain't hurting noone but, perhaps, themselves...

Heck, if you got a Caddie of a shiny new SUV 'round this part of the country you can purdy much drive it at any speed or in any fashion you want. The cops won't bother you 'cause they know that if yer driving a new Caddie of SUV yer part of the priviledged class. The fact that yer a danged danger to others don't enter into the equation...

But now if you take a couple tokes then, man geeze o' pete, yer a dangeruos person to society???

Give this ol' hillbilly a break!

The only logic in this is the complete ill-logic...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:11 PM

clint I'm so sorry to hear about your aunt.

My grandfather died young - before I was 2. I never had the chance to meet him. A decorated WW1 vet, he'd suffered with a heart condition all his life, caused by the mustard gas in the trenches where he'd spent a couple years as a teen.

So - why isn't war banned and pot legal? Does pot have a higher death toll than war - or tobacco - or even smog???

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:33 PM

My aunt died from smoking tobacco. That's not my opinion: the death certificate says "tobacco addiction."

The smoke itself gave her emphysema and lung cancer, which spread to her stomach and elsewhere. The blood vessel constriction from the nicotine shut down the little veins in her retina so that she became legally blind and gave her some other circulatory problems. She had to have non-cosmetic plastic surgery on her legs to repair the damage done by the surgery on her arteries.

Toward the last of her life she couldn't see, couldn't eat, had to use a walker. and needed a caretaker. She had an inhaler and an oxygen tank, and she liked them because the cigarettes tasted so much better after she used them.

The tobacco worked as good on her as most hard drugs would have, I think.

Marijuana is helpful in some medical conditiions. It used to be paart of the pharmacopeia. Carl Sagan, of all people, thought it was helpful to the thought processes.

Why isn't tobacco banned and marijuana legal?

You can figure it out.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:12 PM

Well I found out why the Fraser Institute wants to legalize it.

The study says, "...the industry in B.C. alone is worth more than $7 billion a year, which would translate into $2 billion a year in tax revenues if the drug were legalized."

They also say that it would cut down on organized crime and that conviction rates are so low that it just isn't worth the money thats dumped into making it a criminal offense.

The problem is the American border. Most of the stuff grown up here is destined for the U.S. Even if it were grown here, legally, there would still be a problem getting it across the border.

I find it amazing that Canadians (in general) would rather live next door to a pot smoker than an alcoholic but that the demand is from the U.S. where pot is highly illegal and therefore more desirable. Maybe if it weren't taboo, the desire to imbibe would diminish. I think that its the illegality of pot that is most tempting for teen-agers.

I'm sure that it is an emotional issue for some of you but its obvious that the "war on drugs" shouldn't include pot. All it does is create a lucrative black market.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 08:35 PM

I believe in personal freedom, not domination. No set of laws you can dream up will EVER succeed in protecting people from their own self-indulgent tendencies. It's like trying to grab the wind and hold it down with your hands...utterly pointless. The wind blows where it will and there is nothing you can do about it. Accept it. You cannot force other people to be like you. They won't tolerate it.


AMen, Guest. Amen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 07:56 PM

On the whole, this is one of the most rational, well thought out BS threads I've ever seen. Good for you, people!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 07:42 PM

Peter K(Fionn).First of all Be Blessed..........
Your ideas of life are just another puffed up opinion as I tried to describe in my previous addition to the thread....
My case for criminalising Pot has no flaws as your own third paragraph points out!!!! Be Blessed again!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 07:14 PM

Incidentally, what's left of my memory recalls a report done by the LeDain Commission (at the behest of Trudeau?). The study then cost 1.5 million dollars (that's 1 1/2) and the report recommended legalization (with some restrictions). Many people I knew had hopes then. The continued to smoke anyway. Some laws are simply impossible to enforce.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: GUEST,Well, yeah
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 07:04 PM

Lest any of you who are opposed (for your own good reasons) to legalizing marijuana might have misunderstood me...

I do NOT encourage ANYONE to smoke or use marijuana (or tobacco). I have never encouraged anyone to smoke pot or use it. But I am opposed to making its use illegal, because there is no practical justification for doing so, and it's counterproductive to enforce such laws.

I likewise do not encourage people to overeat, be lazy, be ignorant, or be self-destructive in any manner...but I would regard passing laws to govern their activities in regard to those problems to be asinine and unenforcable...as are the marijuana laws.

When younger, I lived among a peer group where virtually everyone (except me) smoked marijuana either casually or habitually. For the minority it was sort of casual, I'd say. For a few it was really habitual. Those few DID do themselves some harm (but probably a good deal less than with cigarettes and alcohol). The laws against the plant only further complicated the matter and helped absolutely no one, nor did those laws succeed in protecting anyone against their own basic weaknesses and tendencies. They were a hypocritical and needless complication in a society where 99.9% of the population is already addicted to various bad and perfectly legal habits.

Such anti-marijuana laws do not protect people, and they waste the valuable time of the police who might better be actually protecting people from real crime. Drug use is not a crime. Aggressive bad behaviour is a crime.

I repeat, I do not encourage anyone to smoke marijuana, but I think they have the right to make their own decision about it and not live in fear for having made that decision. It's their business, not the government's, whether they smoke marijuana, drink wine, smoke a cigarette or eat junk food. It's the government's business when they rob, do violence, drive drunk, smoke in someone else's air, commit fraud, etc.

It's nobody's business telling another adult whether or not they can grow or smoke a naturally occuring plant in the privacy of their own life.

You can't force people to be perfect, just because you want it that way. If you think you have a right to, well, that's just being a control freak...and that is your problem, not the other guy's.

One more time. If asked, I would advise anyone NOT to smoke marijuana...or cigarettes either. I don't smoke them. But I would not arrest him for doing so. It's his business to regulate his own life, not mine.

I believe in personal freedom, not domination. No set of laws you can dream up will EVER succeed in protecting people from their own self-indulgent tendencies. It's like trying to grab the wind and hold it down with your hands...utterly pointless. The wind blows where it will and there is nothing you can do about it. Accept it. You cannot force other people to be like you. They won't tolerate it.

Attend to your own house, brother. If you're wise, you won't depend on marijuana, alcohol or tobacco to get you through your day...or any other mind-altering drug either. Leave your brother alone to tend to his house as best he knows how. You wouldn't like it if he told you "You've got to do it MY way." Leave people alone. Control yourself, and stop trying to control others!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalize Pot?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 06:46 PM

True GUEST. And kids are also using illegal drugs at that age. Legality has never been the issue. If I want excellent grass that has nothing added, I'll grow it myself. Legality provides 1) quality assurance 2) THC content assurance. I don't think smokin' grass is something everyone should do--or be allowed to do. I would not under any circumstance respond to a fire or accident scene under the influence. However, the same would be true if I drank. If John or Jane Doe wants a few tokes before supper (Sara Lee, for example, or Barbeque Chips with Maple Walnut ice cream), how is that my business? Legalize it and tax it. It would help take some of the illegal drug trade away from the CIA and other organizations involved in criminal activities.