BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults

Subject: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:05 PM

i want to tell you all about two musical events I've been to, one several years ago, and one a few weeks ago.

At the first one, a group of us were in one room, where a harp was playing and a few other instruments. Some parents left their kids (ages about 3 to 10) in this room, while the parents went to another room to dance. As the evening wore on, the kids got obnoxious. Finally, a shoe went flying through the air and crashed right into the strings of the harp! I took matters into my own hands and delivered a serious scolding. No more shoes flew, but the kids continued to bully the littlest one, walking up to him and pushing down to the floor.

Later I read a magazine column by the pediatrician Terry Brazelton. He pointed out something I had never grasped - that when adults are tired, they get quieter and quieter, but when kids are tired, they get wilder and wilder. They need adults to make them calm down when it gets past their bedtime. You don't have to be mean about this, but as an adult you do have to require that they calm down and behave themselves.

A few weeks ago I was at a traditional concert at a church. The artists had come a hundred miles to perform. Sometime during the second half, someone's kid pulled a fire alarm. (Probably one of the kids I had seen in the audience during the first half.) Here is was, 9:30 to 10:00 at night, and young kids were being allowed to roam the building unsupervised. Well, the alarm shrieked, and brilliant lights flashed, and the promoters ran around like mad trying to turn it off. And of course, no one knew how, and they had no emergency contact that they could telephone. After a few minutes I couldn't take it anymore, and I left.

This is another example of tired kids getting wild. Parents, keep them with you! The child that you can trust to play happily at 2 in the afternoon cannot be trusted alone at 9 or 10 at night. At parties, the rough-housing and rambunctiousness have to stop before it's too late. Earlier, such things are fine, but not when it's late.

Since I read Brazelton's column and have talked about it with friends and family, we have been having more pleasant get-togethers, and the kids get to sleep better. That means happier kids and more fun the next day.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: s&r
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 02:57 AM

When my kids got tired they got fractious and irritable. When they were bored they got obnoxious.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 03:32 AM

My children go to my folk club and are pretty well behaved. They are 8 and 12. My younger one is Autistic and watches the music and really has got into it.
She is a definate problem when she gets tired. When this happens, my wife takes her home.

I will allow any family to come into the club so long as they behave. Accompanied children come in free. I also provide tables at the back of the room with paper and colouring pens, so that when they get bored they can at least have a good old scribble.

Its up to the Organiser to ensure that strict rules are applied about the behaviour. They should also inform families coming into the club, what is expected of them.

Together with my 2 daughters and a friend of theirs, we now have 3 youngsters who enjoy folk music. 3 more than if I put a ban on.

I would love to know how many folk clubs allow children to come to their folk nights? Think about it, the next time somebody says that clubs are going under.

Could this be a reason for some clubs dying becuase they are full of old folks and no youngsters coming to see them.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 04:08 AM

This problem has been addressed in many threads - I've always held the opinion that the more a child is exposed to various lifestyles and entertainments, the better and all rounded that child is likely to be. Limpit gets a hugely varied exposure to music - last week she was humming bits of Tchaikovsky (Swan Lake) and today it's the 'smoke on the water' riff. I don't know why, I've been playing Dido and Mozart all week!

The one thing that I don't understand is why no-one went to get the parents of the children who were dumped and misbehaving. I'm sure they would sooner have been in the dance with their parents where rumbunctiousness wouldn't have been minded or even noticed. If I take Limpit anywhere and have to leave her, I make sure I keep coming back to check how she is... if nothing else than to make sure no-one has abducted her (although it's more likely to be the other way round....)!

Parents should be encouraged to take their children to these events but the must also learn that a concert is not a creche and that alternative entertainment should be provided and suitable supervision.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 05:00 AM

Agree with your comments LtS

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: ranger1
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 10:13 AM

Kids and folk music go together quite nicely. It is definitely the responsibility of the adults who bring them to make sure that they mind their manners. My maternal grandparents took me to see a fiddle competition when I was three. Apparently, I played "air" fiddle all the way home in the car afterwards. I'm hoping to take my 7 year old nephew to some folk concerts when he comes to visit me next month. And I will definitely make sure he minds his manners!

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Willa
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 03:22 PM

Children are welcome at Cottingham Live, both as audience and performers. Our youngest visitor was about 5 weeks old and we have several accomplished young players in the range 7 to 13, including some who write their own tunes - no, they're not precocious pests, but serious musicians starting out.

At a recent half-term several parents brought their children along and parent and child played together- it was unplanned but turned into a good family evening.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 04:12 PM

Yes I noticed children there when I came to see Bob Fox.

However will things be handed down unless we encourage youngsters in.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 04:48 PM

obnoxious, un-supervised kids tell me something about the parents. When my son was small, he went to lots of things, but either my wife or I was overseeing him at all times, even though it occasionally meant one of us missed part of the program if he needed attention. By the time he was in his teens he was in great demand as a good babysitter, as he had learned how kids should behave, and how to accomplish this.

Kids require the rules to be made clear....early and often....with DIRECT consequences for infractions. (no, not beating)....I have watched too many parents just ignore what their kids were doing because they simply had lost control and were terrified that discipline would lead to loud tantrums and worse behavior....they had lost the battle.

sad when kids get the upper hand...

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 07:14 PM

I agree entirely, the children should be supervised by the parents. If ours play up one of us leaves and takes them home.

We have never left our children for somebody else to look after, unless we are paying for them to be cared for.

When they are out with us, they are our responsibilty.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Tig
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 10:51 AM

I've been know to say to children "If you misbehave you will have to take Mum and Dad home" within the parents hearing.

This usually seems to work - putting the responsibility for NOT being taken home on the parents :-)

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:01 AM

I believe it is very important and positive to expose children to a variety of experiences, but I agree that it is the responsibility of parents to regularly take the emotional/behavioural "pulse" of their children when they choose to bring thyem along to these types of events.

When my middle son wasw 6, he accompanied us to a production of "the Merchant of Venice" at the new Globe; he enjoyed the riddle of the caskets, and the Commedia Dell'Arte stuff between acts, and we made sure he was fed, watered, and had something quiet with which to amuse himself if he got bored or tired. The idea of leaving a child unattended at a concert, play, etc is just bizarre and incomprehensible, for safety as well as social reasons!

My children went to the Warwick Folk Festival with us last year, and by varying the activities throughout the day, we were able to see that we all mostly had a fabulous time. They even made it through the Waterson:Carthy concert, which got out around midnight, without incident. The youngest put his head in my lap & slept awhile, but not longer after, hearing "A Dark Light" on the CD player, he said, "hey, we saw these guys"!

And *that's* cool!

D

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:53 AM

I was in a club where the 'function' room was through the room where the pool table is located. One night four adults with a number of children were in the pool roon,the adults letting the children do what they like with the cues and pool balls.One little brat came into the door of the function room three times and just yelled at the to of his voice.On the third occasion I went through into the pool room
and said that was one of the reasons some people were opposed to any
one bringing youngsters into licensed premises . On of the "ladies"
then proceded to swear (true trooper fashion ) at me for insulting her son. As this rather confused me I did not continue with the so
called conversation. Fortunately they all left shortly after.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:05 PM

In answer to the comment, "The one thing that I don't understand is why no-one went to get the parents of the children who were dumped and misbehaving."

Who knows which adults and which children in a large group of strangers go together? It took a while for us to figure out that no one in the room was responsible for the children.

The insight I am trying to share with people is that when children are tired, they tend to get wilder and wilder, whereas adults get quieter and quieter. This is something to be aware of, whether they are your own children or someone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 02:01 AM

I guess it depends on what they are doing.

If they are sitting quitly listening to the folk music, then I can hardly think that they get wilder and wilder.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 03:35 AM

I've been at ceilidhs and dances where the organiser has grabbed the mike and requested that the parents of the *insert number here* children wearing *short description of clothing* go and get them. I've always said that if my child misbehaves, then I'm more than happy for anyone to tell her off, just as I would do to other children who are misbehaving in my company. These days though, that will get you a stern rebuke from other parents whose children do no wrong, or at the worst, a trip to the police station to answer to child abuse/civil disorder charges.

More often than not, a child will respond to a request from other adults, rather than its own parent.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 02:27 PM

Leave them home..........puleeeeeeeeeeeeease. I am sick to death of people who think that thier children can do as they please.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: GUEST,guest 2
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:00 PM

I am in FULL agreement with you guest!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:18 PM

Regretably, the law does not allow us to leave our children under 12 at home unattended..... even if they are chained up under the stairs.

Shame it doesn't extend to leaving them unattended outside concerts or dances or in adjoining rooms.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 01:38 AM

And there was me thinking that all folk people are inclusive and helpful and kind.
Obviously not, and the ones that aren't go under the disguise of "Guest"

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: rhoda horse
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 06:21 AM

Why should adults have to suffer the puking and mewlings of other people's little darlings to the detriment of their own enjoyment? Stay at home with the little loves!

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:26 AM

And why shouldn't my children be allowed to come to concerts? I know my childrens limitations and once they start misbehaving they are removed from the area so as not to spoil others enjoyment. We recently went to a Tanglefoot concert and for various reasons (including the fact that they all love the music) took our ten year old and four year old twins with us. The elder one was totally immersed in the music but the little ones started to get fidgety after about 20 mins so were taken out to an area where I could still hear the music but noone could hear them. In the second half the same happened to one child while the other half dozed on her dads knee so no problems there. I took my son out and then brought him in at the back for the last song or two which he sang along with word perfect! I agree that parents should not dump children and run but this is not the childrens fault it is the parents so why should the children be punished by excluding them?

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:40 AM

I am not under disguise as anuthing, I am just sick to death of unruly children at concerts and in Pubs. Don't give me that shite about be inclusive..let's hear it for respect and consideration for others. You kids are not as cute to everyone else as you may think. I have many a pkeasant evening ruined by kids who have been too cute for too long and are now just obnoxious.
   The fact that I am a gues is beside the point.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 08:19 AM

Hmmmm - and I've had my evenings ruined by drunken gits who think they should be given all the leeway in the world because "its only the drink"....
So - please leave your drunks at home.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: el ted
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:32 AM

The trouble with dragging your bloody kids to bloody folk festivals, is that after fifteen or so years you end up having to accompany them with your guitar when they bloody start to want to sing stuff by - Christy moore, Willie Nelson, Emmylou Harris, Iris DeMent, Van Morrison, Kate Rusby etc. STOP TAKING THEM, OR YOU WILL END UP LIKE ME!

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 10:19 AM

Guest don't bother to come to my club then. we get btween 50 to 60 including children. woudn't want to spoil the atmosphere with bad tempered old fogies.

Not all kids are unruly and not all parents are bad. Maybe you frequent the wrong dives.

Who are you then or are you scared to reveal yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 06:25 PM

Actually, now I think about it, I've had more evenings ruined by loudmouthed drunken gits (and in one instance, that was just the band!) than I have by children bouncing around.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Nick
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 06:56 PM

Nature or nurture? Wow, now we're off.

Me I go go for nurture.

THE ADULTS ARE THE PROBLEM.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: 42
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:06 AM

A singer/songwriter of my acquaintance once commented to me at the break in a house concert that he'd played in bars that had a loud drunk and houses that had a loud child and "at least nobody thought the drunk was cute"

kids do need to be exposed to all kinds of experiences but, ultimately, parents need to be responsible and leave the "but I came to see the show" attitude at home (unless they leave the kids there too). I've seen parents bring a sitter with them to shows just in case!

j

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:15 AM

I think I am like most people in that IF youngsters are well behaved they are welcome - I have met all the Ducklings and they are nice kids , as are their parents. Its the thoughtless parents and their obnoxious offspring who cause the problems for the well behaved kids.

Subject: RE: BS: kids at the concert, or advice fr adults
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:36 AM

A point I think worth making is that there are adults out there who want to make it quite clear that children should not be in the same venue as them, regardless of the childs behaviour. I have been at festivals with kids sat on chairs, quietly listening to music, and seen the glares and disrespect they have been shown by adults. That's just plain mean and nasty.

Other scenarios include children dancing, or even playing in the background. Some find this anoying. Perhaps the answer is that these people shouldn't go to family events if they don't like children. I don't go to events with my son if they are unsuitable for families.

Kids are part of the deal in the folk world unless you choose to exclude them. I agree that their presence shouldn't ruin anothers enjoyment of an event. But neither should a drunk adult, or a noisy woman, or a man with an infectious laugh, whatever. People seem able and willing to adapt to a little intrusion on their enjoyment when it comes from an adult. Perhaps the same could more readily be extended to children.