BS: Federal election (Canada)

Subject: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,James
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 08:52 AM

So, are we on the verge of some major change in this country or will it be the grits again ? How do people think this election will turn out ? Seems to me that it will determine the future of the country for a long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:38 AM

Unfortunately, I believe the reform party will win..scary eh ?

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM

Seems to me that it will determine the future of the country for a long time to come.

Probably not. The way it looks now is that the Regressive Conservatives are poised to take power with a minority government. The problem for them is that they have no basis for ideological support from any of the other parties who will be in the parliament. The Liberals, will be wanting to retake their place as the natural governing party. The NDP is the ideological opposite of everything the Tories stand for and the only common front they share with the Bloc Québecois is on the supremacy of provincial jurisdiction.

The Liberals do not like being in opposition. Martin will probably resign, or face the kind of insurrection he laid on Chrétien. They'll regroup under new leadership just in time for the inevitable 2005 election.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,James
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 12:19 PM

Do you really think Harper can win..seems impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 12:45 PM

Backstage... Keep an eye out for Frank McKenna to take over the reins if the Liberals lose...

I have personally never been so frustrated with the leadership of the parties as I am in this election.. Right now I am taking the Joe Clark stance of "better the devil we know"...

Brian.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 02:38 PM

"I sat and watched those guys
Debate each other on TV
Politicians, wrestlers
They're all the same to me
Hey I don't give a damn
Which idiot runs this country
Cause I'm the last man on earth
And it don't matter to me"

-L.W.III-

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

Harper and the re-packaged Reform party won't win.
It's an "anything but them" situation.

I think the Liberals will win, but with a minority govt.
The patronage scandal is Chretien's doing not Martin.
He just wanted to sabotage Martin's campaign since there's no love lost there.

NONE OF THEM DESERVE TO BE ELECTED HOWEVER.
Bastards all.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM

Another exercise in political futility. A party that gets no more than maybe 39 or 40% of the vote (meaning maybe 23% of the demoralized and cynical voting public) will form either a minority government (in which case they'll strike a deal with one of the other parties and stretch it out for 1-4 years)....or...they'll get a phony majority government and operate as a de facto dictatorship for the next 5 years over a hapless public that mostly didn't vote for them in the first place!

We need proportional representation in this country, and we need it desperately.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

Liberals, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Bardford
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:19 PM

It's encouraging to see the Greens polling in the 7% range - around 10% in B.C. Official party status (and funding) if they garner enough votes. This may be the last election where they are considered a fringe party.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:09 PM

No, no, no Harper. Better the devil you know - Martin. Could we please see the NDP as opposition? Jack Layton actually looks great. Wouldn't you like to see him as PM? I would but I know he doesn't have a chance.

Martin is a scumbag. He's already bilked Canadians out of tax dollars with his own off-shore companies, never mind the cuts he imposed to the provinces. Then he stabbed Chretien. What makes people think he will reform as PM? Oh no - just wait until he has some real power and watch what he can do. Besides that, he obviously drinks entirely too much - look at all those broken veins on his face! He's all jowly and overweight, too. A real fat cat thats over the hill.

Jack Layton, on the other hand is fit, energenic and nice to look at. He really does look and sound like a Canadian.

I won't even mention Harper - the racist, the woman-hater, the gay basher and the war monger!

Looks like the choice is the devil or the deep blue sea.

We need a new voting process!

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:13 PM

We need people we can trust in Ottawa. There are about fifteen of them, but that could be wishful thinking on my part. It would be nice for a change to have a bit of honesty in Parliament. However, don't expect that anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:25 PM

Hey Dianavan, your method of picking a suitable PM is kind of weird. Perhaps Barbie and Ken should run as they both look great! Ken don't have no veins on his face and Barbie, well, Barbie just looks super!

I personally would like to get some Green going into Ottawa for a change instead of having all the green flowing out.

Stew

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:47 PM

When she says he "looks great", I don't think she means it on quite that superficial a level, Stew. :-)

He looks good to me too, and I'm not referring to his pearly teeth, but to his general lively, intelligent, keen manner. I think he'd be an excellent prime minister.

Harper? I'd vote for anyone else before I'd trust his ex-Reform team of "trickle-down" theorists (who are promising to both cut taxes AND improve social programs...HA! HA!). Talk about big liars. Anyone else!

Our local liberal member (Paul de Villers) is a good guy who deserves to be re-elected once more, but I don't think he'll make it this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 12:54 AM

I'm in a difficult riding here, the incumbant was a Reform Party representative, who quit when the Conservatives and the Reform Party merged and is now running for the Liberals. He still remains a very strong advocate of private Health Care and bringing in HMOs as an answer to problems within the system.

I take, from his literature, he believes that, permitting those with money to pay to for privately available health care and get out of the queue, will free up space and money in the public system. As this already occurs, for those who have the means to pay for private care in the States, with no positive effect on the current public system, I have requested that he clarify his reasoning, but so far I have not had a reply from his office.

In his literature he has also stated that he has personally spoken to Martin about his ideas and Martin is in favour of changing the Health Care Act???

Then we have another Reform Party Conservative running too, so my choice is between a devil I do know and a devil I do know. Some choice there.....

Which leaves the NDP, which used to do well in this riding, and the Greens, both of which may be buried in the attempt to keep Reform from getting a majority.

I guess I will wait to the final moment to vote and check out what disaster has been generated from Ontario, eastward, before attempting to nullify someone's vote out there, with my miserable choice. It will be odd voting for the first time in an election, where I will already know the results in the eastern part of the country, prior to casting my ballot. I'm not sure I believe that is a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:50 AM

If you live in the east..Atlantic Canada that is, Harper thinks we are all welfare bums who do nothing but wait for gevernment cheques to arrive.My pride alone would not allow me to vote for someone who comes from the Republic of Alberta just to tell us how useless we all are.
   As For the Liberals...well my vote will go to the NDP and I hope to God they win just to let those smug bastards know that we can turf the lot of them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:44 PM

Damn!!! Its too bad he's a separtist and only running candidates in Quebec, I've been watching the debates and I'd vote for Duceppe for Prime Minister over any of the other candidates. He's sharp, he sticks to the point and he's head and shoulders above the others. Why can't the other Parties find a leader of that calibre with a federalist viewpoint?

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:56 PM

I live in Alberta. The province pretty much votes some sort of conservative. I will cast my vote on June 19 at the advance poll and watch another candidate get elected against my better judgement and my vote. However, "Democracy is the clumsiest form of government in the world, except for all those other systems that have been tried from time to time." (WC, but I think I paraphrased him.)

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:32 AM

Damn!!! Its too bad he's a separtist and only running candidates in Quebec, I've been watching the debates and I'd vote for Duceppe for Prime Minister over any of the other candidates. He's sharp, he sticks to the point and he's head and shoulders above the others. Why can't the other Parties find a leader of that calibre with a federalist viewpoint?

Duceppe was able to be the way he was in the debates because he's not running for PM. He already knew that he had a lock on the vast majority of Quebec ridings, and he was the only francophone, thus his "winning" performance in the French debate. And for the English debate, he knew he had nothing to lose and nothing to gain, so he was exempt from the pressure faced by the other leaders.

As for the overall calibre of the leaders, we're a long way from the days when Trudeau faced off against the likes of Stanfield, Douglas and Lewis.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:42 AM

Hear, hear! That is too true.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:28 AM

I would like to see at least one leader who knows that there is a Canada east of Quebec. I don't thing we need proportional representation, I think we need at least ONE NATIONAL PARTY rather than all of these regional ones..Two central Parties..Liberals, NDP..one Western Party...Reform(Conservative..ha ha) the Bloc..Quebec. That is what is wrong woth this election and the four previous ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Bardford
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:23 AM

Hey Guest - Check out The Green Party. Running canditates in all 308 ridings. Too bad the television debate organizers saw fit to exclude Jim Harris (Green Party leader) from the podium.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM

Backstage Manager, I know re Duceppe, I was being facetious. And your so right about our lack of statesmen of substance. Instead of learning anything of any depth or value regarding their platforms, I was just left with the impression I had just viewed a babbling puppet show rather than a debate.

Martin appeared as a characature of himself from Spitting Images, Layton, a hand puppet from Mr. Dressup, while Harper reminded me of a smug marionette funeral director or smirking car salesman saying "Trust me," while wringing his oily hands.

Then again, maybe puppet shows are all that's now warranted in this satellite country.......

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:07 PM

Watching Layton, I was reminded of an agressive used car salesman. I was really hoping to be able to vote NDP this time, but Layton, and particularly his pandering to the separatists (which will net him not one separatist's vote) negates that desire.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:42 PM

it's the mustache *BG*. He had an edge of Casey, of Casey and Finnegan that made him too wooden to come off totally as a used car salesman, to me, but he was sure selling and not debating. Actually I didn't get the impression he was pandering to the separtists, as much as the separtists were pandering to him, which left him at a loss, because he couldn't find an appropriate cue in his ridgid script. Cunning ploy on the part of Duceppe.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 02:13 PM

Brian....Frankie McKenna?...are you serious...thought we NBers killed him long ago...he's a bigger crook then papa Jean!!.....

I agree 100% with the Duceppe comments...if he wasnt a traitor he'd make a good man to run the Country...knows his facts, and sticks to his beliefs...again..good qualities...for a traitor.

People in this Country have to stop relying on what Daddy, and Grand-Daddy voted and stand up. I dont understand throwing away a vote..ie. Bloc, Green Party, and even NDP. They will never gain the votes to run this Country. Why not make a smart vote one way or the other Red or Blue and allow a Majority Govt to run the Country. If they bash us to hell for 4 yrs, try it again.

The Maritimes will never have a say in Fed Govt again, Elsie Wayne retired, and Peter McKay pissed off too many people..another Traitor. Everyone from the East (myself included) knows PQ, ON, and AB determine the Leadership for this Country and I think I'd rather trust a Redneck from AB over a snotty nosed rich kid from Southern Ontario anyday!....(dont bash me all at once..its just an opinion).....Slainte!

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:47 PM

I think Martin will win with a small majority.

Once the friggin' Conservative group define what their mission is (right now it seems like lots of fancy-sounding stuff that equates to more privately-owned health services, a taxation policy that isn't quite clear except it's going to save everyone money and still leave enough to pay down the national debt, give everyone a chicken to put in the pot they may or may not legalize--hell boys and girls, they sound like what we already have. Oh, yeah, they'll get rid of the gun registry--likely a good thing to do because no one was stupid enough to register EVERY gun they own, and if they ever come to collect, they'll likely be shot by the one that wasn't registered.) and stop promising us absolutely everything, they may stand a chance. But, not this time 'round.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Yer bud, Velcro.

Will Rogers was right. "All politics is apple sauce."

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM

Martin the fat cat, Harper the biggot and Layton the huckster. That leaves Duceppe. Too bad you can only vote for him if you live in Quebec.

What really put me off Martin during the debate was that he kept putting his hand up to the opponents. As if he was ignoring them or creating a wall. What was that? Did you notice his 'special' podium with the edge built up so as to conceal his notebook? Well the notebook fell to the floor and he also spilled his water.

Harper is just not happening at all. He's another Bushite. Even a wrote a letter to the Wall Street Journal apologizing for the fact that we were not fully involved with Iraq. Tacky, tacky, tacky.

I like Jake Layton and his platform but he did come across as a bit of a cornball. It was also irritating the way he kept butting in. This is an odd campaign. I suspect it will be Liberals with NDP in opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:50 PM

My recipe for an improved political system is NO parties whatsoever. Vote for individual local candidates on their character and their ideas and their past record of performance (if any). Then let them appoint a prime minister as their chairman(person) in parliament, no ruling party, no official opposition, but a cooperative body of representatives who work together to form policy, debate that policy, consult their constituents, and pass legislation. That is exactly what happens in a city council, and it works just fine. Political parties are a disease. They don't promote democracy, they thwart it.

I would make the same recommendation in any other country too.

But I know it ain't gonna happen. :-) Too many vested interests are controlling the $ySStem, and they like it just the way it already is. Tammany Hall is not going to go quietly off into the night when there are $billions yet to be stolen and squandered and laundered.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:09 PM

And yet another statement that is too true.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:39 PM

Why do some feel that it is absolutely essential to have a majority government? Don't forget that it was a two term Liberal minority government under Pearson, being propped up and pressured by the old CCF, that was responsible for the inception of medicare in this country and better old age pensions.

IMO, Pearson's government then, was a far better representation of the views and aspirations of the majority of Canadians, than most of the majority governments we have had since that time. Besides if anything goes wrong, expense-wise, they can always lay the blame at the feet of the NDP and the Bloc and come up smelling like roses.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

I wouldn't mind a minority government. The trade-offs prior to a vote often lead to better legislation. However, thereare only three times in my life I ever voted for the party that formed the gov't, so I ain't holdin' my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:16 PM

Dianavan, I see your reasons for looking at Mr. Layton and seeing a potential Leader, much in the same respect that I can look at Mr. Duceppe and see a good Leader. But being realistic, we have to look at what the Party stands for, not just the man at the helm. Do you really think Socialism can work in Canada? How many COuntries have tried Socialism only to crumble in the end?...On paper its a great idea.."Shiny happy people holding hands"...but come on...our Defence system would crumble much more then it has already, health care would definately worsen by Socialism, and Im sorry to admit it, but...I work for a living..so should everyone else. We have enough Social and Welfare problems in Canada, and Layton's little Orange men would only make it worse......Slainte!..

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM

Three points I'd like to make:

1) I believe beyond a doubt that Harper has a hidden agenda. Did anyone know that when Canada refused to join the Iraq invasion, Harper wrote a letter of apology to the Wall Street Journal, "on behald of all Canadians"? He also fudges on important issues like our social safety net, women's reproductive rights, gay marriage, etc. I think he is a hypocrite, a right-wing fundamentalist, a bigot, and a staunch defender of The American Way, including war.

2) Both the Conservatives and the NDP are fairly extreme, one to the right, the other to the left. I agree far more with the leftist platform, but will vote Liberal (holding my nose) because it is the only centrist party we have left.

3) Friends of mine from Ontario, who were solid PC, changed to the NDP when they got to know Jack Layton, what he does, what he and his wife represent, and what he knows. They said Layton is extremely intelligent and has a lot of integrity. Too bad that moustache makes him look like a used car salesman!

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM

P.S. I forgot to add: look to the experience our American neighbours are having with a far right government. Yikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

hehe...not the first time I heard the "Used-Car Salesman" re. Layton....I think this is the first time in any Election that I've heard soooo many people refer to this election being all about "the Devil you know" and "the Lesser of two Evils"...well...good luck to us all and our decision on the 28th...as a Fed. Govt. Employee who is currently away from my riding, I voted yesterday....right or wrong choice...I'm still not sure........Slainte!

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:29 PM

ReelBrew, while I have seen countries crumble that have "elected?" communist governments, countries that have elected social democratic governments, seem to be still on the map of the world. Last time I looked Spain, the UK, Poland, Hungary and The Czech Republic were still there. France and Sweden didn't disappear either. In fact if what you believe had been the case, the whole map of Europe would look very strange indeed.

While I think Layton is a bit lame as an individual, a lot of the things that make this country and others in the world very worthwhile places to live, for the average citizen, were not the result of unfettered capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 05:20 PM

Metchosin, I far from said the Countries fell off the face of the Earth, simply that their Socialism collapsed...some Countries have not fully resolved the issues either...ie. the State of some Nations you mentioned above...ever been to Poland, Hungary, or the Czech Republic?..I have...I'm much cosier in Canada, thanks......Slainte!

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM

I was in Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic in 2002, and they were doing fine -- booming, in fact, with the exception of some rural areas of Poland and Hungary.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 08:42 PM

ReelBrew, How many COuntries have tried Socialism only to crumble in the end?

Sorry if I misunderstood what you had intended to say, I just responded to what, in fact, you did say. Guess I'm not much at reading minds.*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 09:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 09:17 PM

Writing from Canada (Toronto) at the moment! Maybe the air pressure up north here explains why I messed up the last post.
Anyway
Have spoken to a number of my Canadian customers about the upcoming festivities, and the response has been a unanimous groan. Nobody seems to be happy about whatever the outcome might be. But the question, "What will Quebec do now?", has come up several times and seems to be a worry.
Oh well, I vote south of the border and have my own problems there.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Raptor
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:03 AM

Don't Kid yourself The CON-Self-Serve-A-Tives Have a great chance of winning and we should be scared shitless of that. Its not who you vote for this election its who you vote against!

The NDP don't have a chance so if you vote for them you are not effectively voting against Harper! If the people don't vote Liberal the bastard will win and we might as well vote bush in here!

The green party are starting to sound like a good choice but they are still not ready to lead anyone!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:52 AM

Odd Raptor, maybe just a case of misunderstood semantics, but I've never voted for anyone in 40 years, in order that they should "lead" me. I've always tried to cast a vote for a candidate who best represented my viewpoints and came closest to my hopes and aspirations for the citizens of this country. Although, I have on occasion held my nose and voted for what felt to be the least damaging of options in some elections.

I've never felt the need to be led in a parlimentary democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:43 PM

I voted in the advance poll today at 12:15 PM. My candidate doesn't have a chance at all. But, for the time it took me to mark an X, I was the boss. God, I love this country.

Please ensure we have a democracy in the years to come. VOTE like your freedom depended on it. It may. Once these bastards think we ain't interested enough to mark an X, they may start thinking we really don't care.

Even if all you do is mar your ballot--VOTE.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: TS
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:22 PM

Harper: Redneck Biggot
Martin: Corrupt Thief
Layton: Used-Car Salesman
Duceppe: Traitor

Ah yes...Democracy....who can least-fu@k up our Country....10 days and counting folks!...So..here's a question...if you could walk up to any one Canadian and decide that person will run the Country...who would you choose? ..me..I'd pick Lewis MacKenzie. Conservative with strong Liberal values. Definatley would not sell out his Country and wouldnt back down either....what do my fellow Canuck-Catters say?..

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:52 PM

Back in the Mulroony days (remember them ?) a popular message on washroom walls read:
" If you voted Tory you can't shit here because your arsehole is in Ottawa!"
Harper and Martin are both cut from the same cloth so there is great danger of national constipation.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:16 PM

There are a few Catters who come to mind, but I won't embarrass them by saying who. I would start with someone honest and worry about the other stuff later.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 01:56 AM

ReelBrew, where in the World did you come up with a defintion of "socialism" that equates to: "people not working" ????

EVERY country in the the World has "tried socialism" and HAS socialism established in major ways right now already.

"Socialism" is not an all-or-nothing exclusive concept that allows nothing else beside it, it's part of a functioning modern society with a tax base, a goverment, an armed forces, a justice system, etc.

Your mistake is in thinking that it is all-or-nothing and denies capitalism. It's not and it doesn't. You need both socialism and free enterprise if you want a fully healthy nation, in my opinion. Socialism to provide: government, police, military, health coverage, transportation management at a wide level (building roads, etc), educational systems, major utility management (such as water supply, and so on)....and ANYTHING that is too large and all-encompassing...or too nonprofitable...to be feasible by the private sector. These socialist structures are what you pay your taxes for! As it says on the USA's IRS building, "Taxation is the price we pay for Civilization". Dead right.

And we need free enterprise to provide: Unique creativity by many different people in many different creative and manufacturing a d job fields, thus stimulating a tremendously vibrant number of imaginative initiatives of all kinds by the citizenry.

"Socialism" does NOT mean doing away with all free enterprise to me, and it doesn't to the NDP either.

The systems that failed weren't what I call "socialism", they were totally centralized communism...and they failed because they were too centralized, too undemocratic, too militaristic, and very much out of touch with the aspirations of the ordinary people...plus, the West outspent them on military hardware until they went broke. That would have happened whether or not they had been communist, providing the West had decided to compete with Russia. Russia could not match the whole financial power of America combined with western Europe and Japan. They could never have matched it, whether they went capitalist or not.

China is a different story. China is a power that can shake the World once they get going...and they are well on the way.

I am saying this: your definition of "socialism" is faulty, because it assumes that socialism is an all-or-nothing proposition. It's not. Everyone has socialism, and in fact must have socialism. We couldn't function without it unless you wanted to give up every key social advancement that has been achieved in the last few thousand years, and return to a hunter-gatherer society living at a bare subsistence level of mere survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Federal election (Canada)
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:01 AM

Thank you Little Hawk.