War Mongering Songs

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 07:51 PM

GUEST,Jim Maffie - PM
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM
Does anyone know the origins and name of a ditty about nineteenth-century British colonial forces in African that includes the lines, "In the end, we have the Gatling gun, and they do not"?

A bit late, but that's not unusual with us here on the Mudcat. It's not in any way a warmongering ditty, but an extract from Hilaire Belloc's Modern Traveller, which is a very funny attack on the whole myth of British Imperialism, written at it's height. (And it's a Maxim, not a Gatlin)

Blood understood knew the native mind;
He said you must be firm, but kind.
A mutiny resulted.
I shall never forget the way
That Blood stood upon this awful day
Preserved us all from death.
He stood upon a little mound
Cast his lethargic eyes around,
And said beneath his breath:
'Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim Gun, and they have not.'

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: PHJim
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 07:45 PM

Graham said above, "My personal unfavourites are ones promoting bigotry against another country/race/whatever. "Come out you Black and Tans" is about as unpleasant as they come, but typical of the genre."

It's typical of the genre because a soldier would have difficulty killing an enemy if he thought of him as just another guy, with a wife and kids at home, who was drafted into the services. The enemy must be dehumanized, therefore bigotry is encouraged. Call the Germans "Krauts", the Japanese "Nips", the Vietnamese "Gooks", the Afghans "Ragheads"... and they seem less than human and easier to kill.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 06:18 PM

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kickin-Hitlers-Butt-Anti-Fascist-1940-1944/dp/B000NDDU60

There's some great WWII examples on this 2007 compilation.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:59 PM

It's a bit late, considering the duration of this thread, but if anyone wants to know about the background of "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye", and "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" Jon Lighter has recently published a thorough and a very well researched study of the origins of both songs. It's the first of a series of "Occasional Papers on Folklore" (CAMSCO Music) and is titled "The Best Anti-war Song Ever Written"
$9.95 (+$2.50 S&H)

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM

For the earliest appearance of the hymn, see my Aug. 2008 post on this thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=6315#2402837

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:49 PM

With the help of Harvard's Widener Library, which has *two* copies of _Rhymes of the Rookies_, I looked up the earliest printed source of the Marines' Hymn. Sure enough, it has the line in its diplomatic form, "They will find the streets are guarded". It is clear that "They will find that country occupied" is spurious. My guess is that it was made up, pretty early on, by overeager Marines.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:58 PM

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Wotcha in Italia - PM
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM
And don't forget "Over the Hills and Far Away ..." from the Beggars' Opera.
"Come Enlist and March I say
And go over the hills and far away ..."
======================

This is not in fact the Beggars' Opera version of "Over the Hills", which begins "Were I laid on Greenland's Coast", but another version to a related but not identical tune.

~Michael~

Bit late to make a correction, I know, but, in interests of accuracy, better late...

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

Here's Pete Jagger War Monger Blair

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 07:30 PM

Google turns up no further exx. of your version, Joe. It may not have been terribly well known. Certainly the Marines were doing a lot of occupying in Central America and the Caribbean in the 1920s. Thanks for posting it.

Oscar Brand published a verse about "We fight for U.S. Steel and the oil fields of John D." Another little-known parody.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:31 PM

I have seen the stanza I quoted in print, with "that country occupied" replaced by "the streets are guarded"; it is also in the version in the DigiTrad. I heard the original from my mother, and I imagine she learned it from one of her older brothers. That would place it around W.W. I.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 01:09 PM

Joe, see this thread: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=6315#2402837

And scroll down to Aug. 8, 2008.

The lines you quote are new to me.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 10:44 PM

I just skimmed through this again to see if anyone had provided the words for "Remember Pearl Harbor," and didn't see them, so here they are:

History
In every century
Records an act that lives forever more
We'll recall
As into line we fall
The thing that happened on Hawaii's shore

Let's remember Pearl Harbor
As we go to meet the foe
Let's remember Pearl Harbor
As they did the Alamo
We will always remember
How they died for liberty
Let's remember Pearl Harbor
And go on to victory


It's not exactly let's go out and kick some ass because we're superior, but it is a call to battle, all right. Now it is also interesting that the Project for a New American Century, in describing how the US government might take power over the Middle East and its oil (and thus, essentially, the world) said something to the effect that the government, in order to justify the militarization of US society required by that goal, might need "a new Pearl Harbor" as justification... conveniently for that point of view, 9/11/2001 was just a couple of years in the future.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM

For jingoistic boasting, the (U.S.) Marines' Hymn is a good specimen. I believe it has been toned down a bit, but it used to end

If the army and the navy
Ever look on heaven's scenes,
They will find that country occupied
By United States Marines.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (in Transylvania)
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM

And another one I heard tonight (by the wonderful Andres Mustonen and Hortus Musicus): Walther van der Vogelweide's "Palestine Song", a.k.a. "Nu alrest lebe ich mir werde". We got two verses. It's such a beautiful tune you'd think you'd get a lot more, but nobody ever sings the whole thing, for good reason. It was written around 1204 as a recruiting song for the Fourth Crusade. There are about 30 verses in all, starting in a tone of mystical exaltation at the prospect of being a pilgrim setting foot in the Holy Land for the first time (this being the bit people sing these days) and ending with "sock it to them fuckin towelheads" in Old High German. With, I think, "let's sort out the Christ-killers" in between. It seems to have been one of the most politically effective songs in history.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:18 AM

Woody Guthrie is credited with writing "Reuben James" - rousin American sentiment against the sinking of the ship by the Nazi Germans before WWII:

Have you heard of the ship
called the good Reuben James?
Armed of hard fighting men, both of honor and of fame,
She flew the Stars and Stripes of the Land of the Free,
But tonight she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Won't you tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?

One hundred men went down to their dark and watery grave,
When that good ship went down, only fourty-four were saved.
Was the last day of October, they saved fourty-four,
From the dark icy waters of that cold Iceland shore.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Won't you tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?

It was there in the dark on that cold and watery night,
They watched for the U-Boat and they waited for a fight,
Then a whine and a rock and a great explosion roared,
They lay the Reuben James on the cold ocean floor.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Won't you tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?

Many years have passed since those brave men are gone,
Those cold icy waters, they're still and they're calm,
Many years have passed, and still I wonder why,
That the worst of men must fight and the best of men must die.

Oh tell me what were their names, tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?
Tell me, tell, me, tell me what were their names? Tell me what were their names?
Did you have a friend on the good Rueben James?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: reggie miles
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

Funny you should ask for such in this thread. This one is the title cut of one of my 2008 releases. If you like, you can listen to it on the player on my MySpace page.
http://www.myspace.com/reggiemiles

War Mongerin' Man Reggie Miles © 2008

It's a cold, cold wind that blows no good
An evil seed that's growin' in our neighborhood
With a twisted soul, and tortured mind
And no love for his own kind
Too blind to see the things he should

Only the sound of gold ringing in his ears
Drowning out the cries of those whose lives are filled with tears
His deaf and dumb predisposition
Gives me a strong suspicion
Avarice is his sole mission around here

With every word he tries to convolute
Nothing is so sacred that his lies will not pollute
Disinformation is his tool
Playin' everybody for the fool
Is his only golden rule absolute

Have you felt the darkness spread,
Or heard the truth subverted by what he said?
A glad hand and a smile
Is his deceptive style
All the while he's a wishin' you were dead

Have you seen that war mongerin' man?
Have you seen the fruits of his labor across this land?
Have you ever wondered why?
He'll kiss your baby then he'll spit in your eye.
It's all a part of his master plan

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (in Transylvania)
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 02:54 AM

"Twa Recruitin Sergeants" comes across as less of a recruiting song than a protest about the awfulness of an agricultural worker's life. The glory of the proposed alternative doesn't really feature.

Thurston Clarke's book "Blood and Fire", about the Zionists bombing the King David Hotel, takes its title from a recruiting song of the Irgun, about how Israel would "rise in blood and fire". Anybody got that one, or similar early Zionist ones?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: toadfrog
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:39 PM

Well, I think a lot of people are saying, songs in favor of your cause are bloody and awful, songs in favor of my cause are noble and patriotic. I know the words to "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles," and I also know where they came from (in 1830). There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those words, which were "liberal" words until Hitler adopted them--Deutschland, Deutschland was not the imperial anthem. It was first adopted by the Weimar Republic

Try these for bloody words:
I'll sing you a song of about the town,
How the green flag went up and the Crown rag went down!
'Twas the neatest and sweetest that ever you saw,
And they play the best game played in Erin go bragh!

....

A young Cockney sergeant was yelling that day,
Just give us one hour and I'll blow you away!
But a big Mauser bullet got stuck in his craw,
And he died of lead poisoning and Erin go bragh!

Now, I think those are bloody-minded lyrics. But I bet some people would differ, on the ground the 1916 Easter Rebellion was noble. So it all depends on whose ox is being gored.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:12 PM

December seventh nineteen-hundred and forty-one
Our land of freedom was defied
December eighth nineteen-hundred and forty-one
Uncle Sam replied.
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
We've got a heck of a job to do
But you can bet we'll see it thru.
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
We're one for all and all for one
They'll get a licking before we're done
Millions of voices are ringing
Singing as we march along
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
We'll knock them over and then we'll get the guy in back of them
We did it before, we'll do it again

We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again, we'll take the nip out of Nipponese
and chase them back to the cherry trees
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
When we get going and start to click
We'll put the ax in the axis quick
Millions of voices are ringing
Singing as we march along
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
This country never has lost a war since days of William Penn
We did it before, we'll do it again

Millions of voices are ringing
Singing as we march along
We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it again
And even though it may take a year
or two or five or ten
We did it before, we'll do it all over again

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM

Joe, all war songs are noble and defensive. Just ask the combatants. If there is one thing that history teaches us it is the remarkable similarity of wars.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:02 PM

Dick Greenhaus: Well, yes, but the context is defensive. The preceding lines are: Oh, thus be it e'er when free men shall stand Between their loved homes and the war's desolation. Blest with victory and peace, may the Heaven-rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

Likewise Die Wacht am Rhein. And the notorious Deutschland 쳌über Alles, if you actually read the words, turns out to be sentimental rather than imperialistic. Germany is above all in our hearts because of its wine, women, & song.

Fair's fair.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: We're not free; we're just at large. :||

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM

"...Then conquer we must
If the cause it is just
And this be our motto
In God is our trust..."

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

My Grandad used to sing one called The baby's name, which listed all the Boer War English Commanders.

later I heard Cosmotheka do it.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: LadyJean
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:26 AM

I see someone posted the Mareilleaise. Appropriate fpo Ju;ly 14. I have encountered a perfectly horrible song called "Haji Girl" About an American soldier killing an Iraqi girl and her family. I'm trying to type this with a cat's tail in my face.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:33 PM

The Varshavyanka has a complicated history, starting off as a Polish patriotic song, but in its Russian version, which was used in the 1905 uprising, it rivals the Marseillaise in bloodthirstiness. The last stanza goes

Nam nenavistny tiranov korony, Tsepi naroda stradaltsa my chtim. Krov'yu narodnoy oblityye trony My krov'yu nashikh vragov ubagrim.

The crowns of the tyrants are hateful to us; The chains of the martyr people we revere. Thrones that are spattered with the people's blood, We will soak with the blood of our enemies.

The chorus climaxes with

Na boy krovavy, Svyatyy i pravy, Marsh, marsh, vperyod, Rabochiy narod!

On to the bloody battle, Holy and righteous, March, march forward, Working people!

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Frightened people tend to the kinds of stupidity that are helpful in being mean. :||

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: stallion
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM

comming in on a wing and a prayer
Sahagun
Bang on the Big drum
Legion of the Rearguard
Black Douglas
One and all
British Light infantry song

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM

To paraphrase: How do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM

Not in Britain though.
We have some 19th century songs like that but none from 20th Century.
The most warlike song from WW2 was probably, "We're going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried line, have you any dirty washing mother dear?"

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM

There is not a folksinger worthy of the name who doesn't know lots of pro-war songs. They range from the racially motivated Arkansas 1st variation of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, to the blood thirsty "One Sunday Mornin', While On My Way To Mass", to the official "Star Spangled Banner" to the comical "Hitler Has Only Got One Ball" (to the tune of "Col. Bogey's March") and "'Round and around Hitler's Grave".
Most patriotic songs are connected to wars and were used to motivate the populace. In the American Civil War, Union troops marched to "Rally 'Round the Flag, Boys" and Confederate soldiers used "Bonny Blue Flag". George M. Cohan's "Over There" was as official a fighting anthem as ever was. I have done school assembly programs on the connection between war and songs. Believe me, for every anti-war song like "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda", there are hundreds like "The Battle of New Orleans".

                  Mike

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: whozit
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

Hey! How about the battle cry "We're gonna Rock Iraq!"

I'll bet you some G.I. penned something over there with that phrase.

War gets peoples dandruffs up and that can be a good atmosphere for writing anything.

Remember that the Anti-War Movement of the 60's was basically a War At Home.

War is basically the fighting for or against what people percieve to be justice or injustice.

I understand that the Protest song is making a comeback.

Where and Why?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM

I am surprised at his reaction.
It is a soldiers' song but not one that relishes killing.
Stolen by the IRA as one of the gentlest of rebel songs.
There were lots of jingoistic songs coming out of the music halls but they don't seem to have been taken up much by the soldiery.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:23 PM

One time about 30 years ago now it must be I was at the The Old crown, Digbeth, and a young folksinger got up and gave us a rendition of The warwickshire RHA, which has the chorus

And when we get to france, me boys
the Kaiser he will say
Ach so! Mein Gott!
What a jolly fine lot!
are the Warwickshire RHA

This old guy suddenly stood up and proclaimed himself disgusted that a warwongering song should be sung in a folk club. he was howled down of course. I think somewhere along the line though, we must have lost a lot of the early peacenik/CND people who gave momentum to the folk revival in the early days. Almost without noticing it, we lost the wide focus that includes all reasonable and decent idealisms.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Jim Maffie
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

Does anyone know the origins and name of a ditty about nineteenth-century British colonial forces in African that includes the lines, "In the end, we have the Gatling gun, and they do not"?

Thanks in advance,

Jim Maffie

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:19 PM

Right or wrong, is there a better rabble-rousing song?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM

"Not to say I would endorse a call for blood to run down the streets, but if I were...."

I note that it's only "impure" blood. Good grief.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:44 PM

BTW has anyone tried singing it to the Blackadder theme?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:42 PM

The Marseillaise is the perfect revolutionarysong I think, great for inspiring people. Not to say I would endorse a call for blood to run down the streets, but if I were....

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM

"Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour di gloire est arrive,
Contre nous de la tyrannie...
L'etendard sanglant est leve (x 2).
Entendez-vous dans campagnes.
Mugir ces feroces soldats?
Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras
Egorger vos fils, vos compagnes.
Aux armes, citoyens! Formez vos bataillons!
Marchez! Marchez! qu'un sang impur
A breuve nos silons."

From the Marseillaise - a bit grim, eh? (Great tune, though.)

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:25 PM

Forgot to mention it first appears in Farquhar's Recruiting Sergeant, a very popular musical comedy of the day.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:20 PM

Over the Hills (not Gay's) isn't a warmongering song, but a recruiting ballad.
It's telling people leave your drab lives and take up a more glorious one, come travel see the world.


"Our 'prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel Master's Shoes,
For now he's free to sing and play
Over the Hills and far away.

We all shall lead more happy lives
By getting rid of brats and wives
That scold and bawl both night and day -
Over the Hills and far away."

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 01:31 PM

When I originally began this thread, my intentions were to discuss songs that instigated and inspired war as opposed to songs that perpetuated and glorified it. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,sing2all
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM

Before I post on this board, can someone please tell me what the original topic was? War songs? Songs that perpetuated war? Please clarify this for me?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,sing2all
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:23 PM

Stumbled on this 'chat' by doing a Google search for the history of "Over the Hills and Far Away". To support Greg's statement, the following is from the libretto.... (Sorry for the intrusion.)

POLLY. Were you sentenc'd to Transportation, sure, my Dear, you could not leave me behind you----could you?
MACHEATH. Is there any Power, any Force that could tear me from thee? You might sooner tear a Pension out of the hands of a Courtier, a Fee from a Lawyer, a pretty Woman from a Looking-glass, or any Woman from Quadrille. ----But to tear me from thee is impossible!

                     Air XVI.--Over the Hills and far away.

MACHEATH.
"Were I laid on Greenland's Coast,
And in my Arms embrac'd my Lass;
Warm amidst eternal Frost,
Too soon the Half Year's Night would pass.

POLLY.
Were I sold on Indian Soil,
Soon as the burning Day was clos'd,
I could mock the sultry Toil
When on my Charmer's Breast repos'd.

MACHEATH.
And I would love you all the Day,

POLLY.
Every Night would kiss and play,

MACHEATH.
If with me you'd fondly stray

POLLY.
Over the Hills and far away. "

POLLY. Yes, I would go with thee. But oh!----how shall I speak it? I must be torn from thee. We must part.

MACHEATH. How! Part!

POLLY. We must, we must.----My Papa and Mama are set against thy Life. They now, even now are in Search after thee. They are preparing Evidence against thee. Thy Life depends upon a moment.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:03 PM

I'll put in additionally that in my own limited experience (we do live in a big country) the expression "the whole nine yards" came into use in the 1960s. This might have some bearing on its origin, though I cannot say what!

Rapaire, army grunts in the old days were known as "dogfaces." Wartime or peacetime, you have my respect and thanks.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Stewie
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 08:00 PM

Thanks, Ferrara. I had forgotten about that quote from the Ballad Index. Despite my comment to the anonymous poster in that thread, I must agree that 'Watz's' 'guess' hardly constitutes 'strong evidence'.

Cheers, Stewie.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:21 PM

As far as I know, MG ammo is still measured by rounds, not length. You might carry a 250 round "belly bag" of 7.62 mm ammo, or a belt of 100 rounds of .30 caliber. I never heard of someone asking for, say, 3 meters of 7.62. Someone might have done so, jokingly, in the same way we once went to the store and ordered a "yard of rope sausauge."

Speaking as a former grunt (and I'm sure airmen felt and feel the same way), I'd much rather know that I had 200 rounds than 5 yards of bullets remaining.

The expression could have come from the ammunition industry, back when cloth belts instead of "disappearing links" were used to MG ammo, I suppose.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ferrara
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:35 AM

Stewie, I think I read it on Mudcat, and to my amusement, I did a search on "comes marching home" and found:

"0.8169 - Thread - Message - RE: When Johnnie comes marching home - Jan 16 2000 7:14PM -   Stewie

    Summary: It is interesting that the Traditional Ballad Index researcher speculates that 'Johnny, Fill Up the Bowl', which shares the tune, probably came first. Scholars continue to argue whether "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" or the doleful "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" is the original. "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" can be firmly dated to the beginning of the Civil War, while "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" does not appear until slightly later (1869) -- but as a traditional song."

... Looks as if it was your post????? Ah well. I didn't go back and read the whole thread. So the "strong evidence" was apparently just your dating of the two songs unless there's more in the thread. Glad you challenged what I said.

Rita F

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:40 AM

In WWII MG belts for aircraft were measured exclusively by number of rounds. not by the length in yards. Waist-gun ammo bins aboard B-24s, for example, bore the stencil "Rounds available at this station." Before being fed into a gun, the belt was stowed in folded layers in the bin. The wooden bin had a hole corresponding to each layer of the folded belt so that the number of layers still available was easily visible to the gunner. In increments of 100, each hole indicated the number of rounds, not feet or yards, remaining on the belt.

I don't believe that any military pilot, then or now, would have been likely to talk about "the whole nine yards" in connection with bursts fired from MG belts. "Used up all 300 (or however many) rounds" was the usual idiom.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Stewie
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:40 AM

Ferrara, I would be very interested in sighting the 'strong evidence' that 'When Johnny Comes Marching Home' predated 'Johnny I Hardly Knew You'.

--Stewie.