BS: Passive smoking at sessions

Subject: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:41 AM

According to this story at the BBC, passive smoking increases the rosk of heart disease 50-60%.

Not nice if you're a non-smoker in a session. Would smokers object to me farting in their faces (which is also rude and unpleasant, but won't physically harm you)?.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:00 AM

"Won't physically harm you", Stigweard? We've only got your word for that. Can you cite any reputable medical research?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Sooz (at work)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:46 AM

Spending an hour teaching a group of 14 year old boys (recreational farting de rigeur) has never affected me in the same way as a similar time spent in a room with only a small number of smokers.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:49 AM

Were you teaching them recreational farting? Is this a conventional school subject? It is some years since I went to school, and perhaps curricula have changed since my day.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: 42
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:58 AM

Where does any session permit players to smoke? Smokers should just give up their instrument,take a break once in a while and go outside for pete's sake. that's simple courtesy and no one could be offended by that being part of a session's structure.

Could they?

j

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:59 AM

What are the chances if you are the first hand smoker. Heck, I might have to take up smoking for health reasons...

Right, Gregster?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Sooz (at work)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:26 AM

They don't need teaching, Greg. They are fluent by the time they reach secondary school!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:27 AM

I smoke, and I find ugly people at sessions offensive. If I agree to not smoke, could I have all the ugly people removed?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:53 AM

You woudn't have anybody left El Ted :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:59 AM

I have not had a cigarette since Oct 22, 2003, I'd have you know, Bobert. I am quite relaxed about people smoking in sessions, but I dont want anybody farting all the time. Pubs have centuries of tradition of being smoking and drinking places, but I think farters should start their own clubs.
   What I really cant be doing with is people from Yorkshire coming to sessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:17 AM

"Pubs have centuries of being smoking and drinking places" - The nail hit WELL and truly on the head there methinks!
Instead of mewling about smokers on mudcat, why don't all you right on, vegetable worshipping self righteous hippies KEEP OUT of PUBLIC houses, which the riff raff such as my self frequent, and hold your rareified sessions in your conservatories!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:46 AM

Right on, brother El Ted(you cant help living in Yorkshire). We do not want sessions full of people whose idea of a wild night out is sharing a pot of Rachel's Organic Yoghurt. Stay home and play with your juicer.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:50 AM

Stick it to 'em Greg!
It boils down to the old problem of so called "clubs" in a PUBLIC house.If you have hired a room for this purpose, then fair enough, you can impose any rules you fancy. But if you are in a public room then TOUGH! The law of the land applies.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM

I completely understand the sentiments, Greg and el ted. And I would have echo'ed them up until 3 or so weeks ago. That was when I had my heart attack. While I could never be so rude as to expect a Public House to clear the smokers on my account, I now find myself in the position of having second hand smoke endangering my life. I am not a vegetable worshipping self righteous hippie, but a heart patient who cannot tolerate the smoke. What this means is that I will not be able to sit in sessions where smoking is occuring.

Just my tuppence worth,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:05 AM

Where's Catspaw when you need him?

I grew up with a smoker. Everyone else in the house hated it and through conditioning are ardent opponents of smoking. We protested, complained, even went on strike over smoking related issues ("You wash your own stinky ashtrays!"--you know how bad those things smell when they're wet?), but my mother was unmoved. She had cigarettes going all during the dinner meal, all around the house, and though we protested, if she came into our bedrooms the cigarette came with her. "It's my house" was the answer of this otherwise very bright woman. She was forced to quit cold turkey when it was clear that she had Buerger's Disease. She smoked when she was pregnant. I resent it like hell that I was essentially an involuntary smoker for 19 years before I moved out. I might have lived at home for intervals after that but getting away from the smell was such a relief. I hated to take stuff into the house because it would pick up the stink. I have boxes of stuff that came from my mother's home after she died. If I couldn't clean it up or run it through the washer it is residing in the garage and gradually airing out.

I was at a club recently where there were maybe 20-25 people and there was one smoker. And that one selfish little twit would stink up the place for everyone else. And this is why I don't go out to public places like that, where the few can spoil it for the many.

SRS (okay, off of my soapbox)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Mr. Butts
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:06 AM

Well said, el ted.

It won't be long now, pick at leat one from the following: lung cancer, larynx cancer, cervix cancer (for the ladies), kidney cancer, pancreatic cancer, stomach cancer, abdominal aortic aneurysms, acute myeloid leukemia, cataracts, pneumonia, gum disease, heart attack, stroke, chronic bronchitis, emphysema, pneumonia, Alzheimer's, etc., etc. The list goes on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:08 AM

Smokers are selfish assholes. My city and state are currently bartering over how best to make all bars smoke free. It won't come soon enough for most bar patrons and the employees who suffer second hand smoke as an occupational hazard.

I'm a former smoker, but I have no sympathy for so-called "smokers' rights". No one has a "right" to endanger other peoples' health because of their addiction, ESPECIALLY if it is a centuries old tradition. Anyone who claims their addiction/tradition trumps my rights to a safe environment is as bad as Dow Chemical in my book.

I've been going to smoke free sessions for years. They are wonderful. Maybe it is because the selfish smokers aren't there, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Mr. Butts
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:10 AM

Anybody that wants to be in the same room with the el teds of this world should read this article from The New Scientist.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:14 AM

And BTW, last time I checked, ugly people don't cause cancer, asthma, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Second hand smoke, of course, does.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:14 AM

The point is not to try and undermine the rights of smokers, but to protect the rights of non-smokers from physical harm because of the effects of inhaling someone else's smoke (along with the effects from drunk drivers, muggers, snipers and banjo players).

Farting isn't an activity that actually causes other people in the room physical harm (unless you've had a take-out from our local curry house, in which case go outside with the smokers!), even though, like smoking, it is unpleasant and anti-social.

I, like Big Mick (get better soon!) am not an veggie or a hippie (probably a bit self-righteous sometimes though), like several beers, scratchings and some hearty banter at my local session, but could do without inhaling someone elses cancer-enhancer all night.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:20 AM

dearie, dearie me! The Nanny state in action! Nowt gets you lot going more than smoking! I smoke, it will kill me, my choice! I enjoy it, and I pay HUGE amounts of extra tax for the priviledge. You should thank me, I will die young but before that, all my extra tax revenue will have been spent on your hip replacements!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:21 AM

A enlightened folk club I know banned smoking back in the 1980s. The smokers took it outside during the breaks and attendance shot up with non-smokers who had been staying away. That was almost 20 years ago and they haven't looked back.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:26 AM

el ted, quit being so defensive. I purposely tried to not cast aspersions on you, but rather just explain why I can no longer sit with smokers. I haven't heard anyone here say that you don't have a right to smoke. What we are saying is that you don't have a right to force us to breathe it. Agreed that you may do as you choose in a smoking pub. I just won't be there. I would prefer you keep your tax money, but if you choose to smoke that is fine. Just keep it to yourself. I have done a lot of thinking on this issue over the last weeks. Rather than banning cigarette smoking in pubs, I would prefer that they be required to post a large bit of signage stating that they allow smoking. That way they maintain their rights, and I can better exercise my right to choose not to go there.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:28 AM

dearie, dearie me! The Nanny state in action! Nowt gets you lot going more than smoking! I smoke, it will kill me, my choice!
I enjoy it, and I pay HUGE amounts of extra tax for the priviledge. You should thank me, I will die young but before that, all
my extra tax revenue will have been spent on your hip replacements!

El Ted,

I don't know where you live and the taxation/medical costs ratio there. But I can tell you that in Canada, the collective federal and provincial taxes on tobacco products do not begin to cover the increased load that smoking imposes on the universal health care system.

Statistically, you will probably die young. However, unless you go immediately from a heart attack or stroke, which is very possible, the costs of treating you for the heart, lung or other smoking-caused diseases you contract will be extremely expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:32 AM

Backstage Manager: dont sound so pleased about your predictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:35 AM

It's ok Big Mick, I enjoy these smoking related dust ups. The thing that bugs me is that once the brown rice brigade have got smoking in public places banned, what's next? Force fat people to diet? I reckon that's next on the Nanny state's agenda.
Any of you lot fat? I'm not. I'm 6ft tall and weigh 12stone. Come on all you fatties let's be having you, then I can get all indignant and self righteous about people who live above pie shops!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:37 AM

I can assure you that I'm not pleased at all. I think it's tragic. I've lost too many good friends, three in the last two years, and several relatives to smoking-caused diseases.

I can tell you that watching someone you care about die many years before their time is quite unpleasant.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:39 AM

I wish the unco guid would get their heads round one very simple fact. You dont have to go in pubs. You may like to, but you dont have to. Big Mick surely has the right of it... a polite request that he'd like to come to the session, but he really cant for medical reasons, so how about it lads?
   No lectures, no ranting,no gleeful predictions of how ill the smokers will soon become. He will win. By politeness. We dont need all this bossyboots stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:39 AM

Nanny state my ass. You are a junkie. An addict. You are trying to justify your addiction to yourself, by proclaiming that it is the non-addicted who are blinkered thinkers. You are so fearful of being socially ostracized for your addiction, that you project your paranoia onto everyone and everything, instead of taking ownership for what you are actually doing: harming others.

So fuck you too, laddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: 42
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:41 AM

I'm a smoker too but I don't feel compelled to impose it on others. I guess living in Ontario where there are only (to my knowledge) three municipalities which allow smoking in public places (patios etc excluded)I've become accustomed to taking it out.

not sure how you can play and smoke at the same time anyway.
j

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:45 AM

I bet you are a fatty aren't you Backpassage Manager? Be careful, Nanny is watching You!
Anyway, I'm bored now, so I am going into the garden for a fag. For the record it will be a home roll, comprised of samson in rizla blue papers.
Hmmm.... I feel a new thread coming on, "should fat people be banned from sessions"..... answers on a postcard please...

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:51 AM

Fat people don't harm others either, el ted.    Nor do fat, ugly people.

You obviously are both bigot and asshole there, el ted. You do keep trying to suck people into your personal prejudices (ugly people, fat people) to deflect attention from the fact that people hate smokers too, maybe in hopes that someone will tell you that what you are doing is acceptable and reasonable.

It isn't, you aren't, and so let me reiterate. I hope your addiction speeds you down the road to where you are headed, which from all appearances looks pretty damn hellish. May your suffering be short.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:51 AM

Oooooh GUEST, you've got such a clever way with words. I think from internal analysis of your interesting post, it was addressed to El ted and not to me. Good, otherwise I might have said "Poo bum to you too". Anyway, keep being rude to him, he comes from Hull, and pretends to be Spanish, which he isnt.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Homeless
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:52 AM

I wish I could hear what Rick would have to say on this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:55 AM

No, I'm not fat.

But that's not the issue. No one gets fat just by being in the same room with a fat person. We are, though, forced to be a smokers, and put or health and lives at risk, when we're in the same room with a lit cigarette.

Anyway, el ted, things are changing. Compare the amount of smoke-friendly places today to that of just five years ago. "No-smoking in all public places" laws are spreading to more and more jurisdictions in the western world. Look at Ireland, for example. Sooner, or later, and probably sooner than you think, the laws will change where you are too.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:57 AM

If calling a spade a spade is rude, then I'm rude. Proud to be rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:59 AM

I'm back. Did I miss much? Any fatties come out of the closet yet? You will be next! Then I think they will move onto Drinkers, followed fishermen (too cruel) hunting (damn near gone anyway) and morris dancers (too weird)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:59 AM

"forced" Backstage Manager? I've been in a few smoky rooms recently in pubs, but I dont recall anybody frogmarched me in there. I'm sure I would remember something as rude and unusual as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:01 AM

PS - GUEST, if you haven't got the balls to post under your real name then you can go take a flying fuck! Rant on darlings.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:03 AM

Hey, dont be nasty to me GUEST. I'm not a stinky smoker. But that El Ted is, that naughty boy, I seen him out in the garden with his smelly Samson. Let's all chuck bricks at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:05 AM

Yes, forced. When we're in a room with burning tobacco products, we're forced to be smokers.

And yes, there are choices to be made. Although I choose to generally avoid somoky places, there are times when I cannot, and am "forced" to be a second-hand smoker.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:06 AM

El ted
I can understand how you feel, but unless you are made of some super human strength and resolve, you will, not enjoy having cancer.
I used to smoke 50 a day, stopped smoking 26 years ago and finished up with cancer caused from smoking 6 years ago. Its not nice beleive me.
I dont have smoking at my club now (put a ban on 3 weeks ago), not because of me, but for the protection of all the other people at the club. I feel I have a responsabilty to all the artists, Ashmatics (? spelling), heart sufferers, young performers and children and anybody else that can't tolerate smoke. Which represent thew greater majority of the club.
I have only had one smoker react like you about the decision. As much as I would love him to still come to the club, I will not reverse my decision. Shame that I have to lose him, but it seems that the majority have overruled in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:07 AM

greg stephens, patrons have choice, employees don't.

You are dinosaurs. You smokers (and former smokers who wish they still smoked) will be huddled in their digusting smoking dens and soon enough, and be gone from all public spaces. You won't be missed, regardless of how "polite" you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:11 AM

You wont be missed either GUEST, you coward! We are having a typical heated mudcat debate that will resolve nothing, and you have to spoil it! Bat on lads, I might get the 100th post on this thread before I have to log off for the day!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:14 AM

I've worked in bars, GUEST, but I dont recall that anybody made me. If people are being forced to work in bars, this sounds shocking, I'm surprised I havent read about it in the Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: 42
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:41 AM

the voice of reason gives up!
j

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 12:15 PM

I'm bored now, so I am toddling off to theThunderbirds thread for a bit. Enjoy this one lads, I will try and sneak back for the 100th post.
                TTFN

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM

Hey Ted, c'mon fella, it's all getting outta hand here - I'm fat (5'7" and 17 stone of relaxed muscle) but I don't smell bad, I don't cling to the clothing of those near me, I don't give other people sore throats and a cough, I don't discolour the room decor, I'm not carcinogenic, I'm not a fire risk, in fact I'm no threat to anyone (unless I fall on them) LOL :0)

I'm also a voracious carnivore, I hate brown rice and I've never hugged a tree in my life. I was brung up in a home where mum smoked like a twitch heap and dad didn't smoke at all, so I saw both sides of the smoking argument. I also held my mum's hand while she died very horribly (I'd describe it to you but it's too X-Rated to put on here) of emphysema which the doctor said was smoking-induced.

Smokers can be good people too - judging by your posts on other threads and our PMs you certainly are - and I make no judgment on them for smoking, they need to smoke so OK let them. But I also need not to smoke and I appreciate it if the smokers show consideration for me by not forcing me to breathe not only their smoke, but (yeeeuuuggghhhhhhh!!) smoke that's already been through their lungs. That's all. A reasonable request?

And I try very hard not to fart in public places :0) ROFL

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 01:27 PM

I agree that we smokers could be more sensitive to the needs of non-smokers. Maggie and I will share tiny roll-ups when there are sensitive non-smokers about. But I only smoke when I drink. And I only drink when I go out playing music. It's all part of the same thing to me. I'm sure I could enjoy playing and singing without the benefit, but I'd rather not try.

If you read the article at the BBC website you'll see that the anti-smoking lobby chose some rather unscientific research and poor use of statistics to favour a ban on smoking in all public places. There's no suggestions as to having smoking pubs and non-smoking pubs, or recommendations for air filtration. The very idea of banning smoking in pubs (where of course everyone goes for their health) is ludicrous to me.

I'm very sorry for those of you with lung disease, heart disease, cancer etc and for those of you who have lost loved ones because of these diseases. But smoking isn't the only cause of these diseases. Stop treating it like it is.

It's just that smokers are a small minority now so we're fair game for the anti-smoking fascists. I live next to the busiest road in Hull, so I am forced to breathe the products of burning petroleum, all day, every day. And I ride a pushbike. What are the chances of banning the internal combustion engine?

And stop picking on Ted. Or if you must, try using some sort of name so there's a chance that we can avoid you in real life.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sooz
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 01:39 PM

Sorry, but I don't need any scientific evidence. After an evening in a smoky pub I spend the night wheezing and unable to sleep and I cannot do my job effectively the next day. QED

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 01:53 PM

Surely you should avoid smoky places if it has that effect on you, Sooz? It sounds pretty masochistic putting yourself through that. Surely if people just exercised choice, and took their custom to places where they were comfortable, the situation would sort itself out. Money talks.
   Any pub which sets up a non-smoking general policy, with some decent smoking-permitted areas which are comfortable(and sheltered if outside), will do fine business. All you have to is make your feelings clear to management. The situation will change itself. We dont need prohibition and being nasty to each other.
   Smoking's the easy one. How we tackle the serious pollution problems?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sooz
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:05 PM

I do, Greg, having learned my lesson long ago. However, I'm also a folk junkie and try to visit as many clubs as I can and my research is not always sufficient. So, sometimes I find myself in a smoky pub where the music may well be great, but my memories the opposite. I've learned enough from this thread to make me think twice about visiting Hull tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:07 PM

you wont miss much. That el ted flailing away at the old fandango music. His daughter's a good singer, though, i have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM

smoking is good for you, it puts hares on your chest.

my grandad told me this, and he lived to be 60.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 03:09 PM

Why were you going into the garden to smoke El Ted?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Joybell
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:16 PM

I've been on this soapbox before too. Briefly for me and countless others passive smoking over many years = asthma = death. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:53 PM

all the non-sokers who're offended in pubs should go outside for fresh? air breaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:51 PM

One of my smoker musician friends takes a periodic smoke break outdoors, saying, I've got to go get rid of all this fresh air.

"Any of you lot fat? I'm not. I'm 6ft tall and weigh 12stone. " You don't know if you're going to be fat, until you quit smoking. So you might end up being one of those fat people. Are you ugly?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:20 PM

I've never met him, so I don't know how ugly he is, but I do know that he smells just like a dirty ashtray.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:51 AM

I have been a life-long non-smoker and always choose no-smoking carriages on trains. In a cafe or pub, I normally choose the non-smoking area to sit in. I would not encourage people to smoke in my car and, if a visitor to my house politely offers to smoke out in the garden in mid-winter, I happily accept without any pangs of guilt. I would certainly object if I was asked to spend day after day sharing an office with a heavy smoker.

However, I do try to be tolerant of other peoples needs (smokers are addicts, after all, and shouldn't be expected to go cold turkey). I go to sessions in pubs where smoking is allowed but this is normally only for a couple of hours, once or twice a month. I like making music with a pint of good ale in front of me and prefer the ambiance of the public bar to being isolated in a back room as part of a private function. As an infrequent customer, I would not expect the regulars to change on my behalf. My need for a musical fix overrides my fear of secondary smoking.

If concern for the effects of our actions on others is the main concern, then perhaps we should only listen to the non-smokers who walk or cycle to the session.

Doug C

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Smoking kills
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 10:59 AM

I am utterly incensed at the tone of those people who believe they can inflict the output from their revolting habit on anyone they please. Wake up and listen, stop making pathetic excuses for killing people with your disgusting habit. It is always the same old pathetic excuses about freedom of choice, but you are only talking about your freedom of choice to inflict harm onto others which you are happy to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:08 AM

I know you cant understand this very simple and obvious point, "GUEST smoking kills", but I'll say it again, and try to use short words. Some pepole are sitting drinking and smoking in a pub. That is what the pub is for. It has a notice up saying you can. It has always been like that. I go in and sit beside them .That is my choice. They are not forcing anything whatsover on me. I know smoke is bad for you. I can see and smell they are smoking. It is 100% up to me whether I stay or go.
   Which bit of that can't you comprehend?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:18 AM

Greg,
    Abondon thread. The PC brigade posting here will never accept the point you have made. Pop over to the thunderbirds thread, it is much more fun.
             ps SINGAROUND
            THE BLACKSMITHS ARMS
             FARLINGTON
                YORK
             YO61 6NW

          FRIDAY 16TH JULY
tel [phone]

(didn't want to totally waste a post)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Smoking kills
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:25 AM

"It has a notice up saying you can"
The notice is to say you can drink, you don't need a smoking licence. You can smoke and harm yourself and others. If you drink you just harm yourself.

Which bit of that can't you comprehend?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:35 AM

On the contrary, the pubs I go in these days all seem to have a notice up somewhere explaining their smoking policy. I believe they are required to...or maybe it is voluntay? Anyway, the notices are there. Possibly not in every pub, I generally have better things to do than peer around reading notices, but I have seen many of these, and they follow a standardised format which suggests they are some sort of requirement.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Smoking kills
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:20 PM

It's enough to make smokers fuming mad, but plans to bring American style no smoking bars to our towns and cities could save thousands of lives.
One hundred and twenty thousand smokers die every year of smoking-related diseases such as lung cancer and heart attacks, six times the number killed in road accidents.
The North East of England is one of the worst offenders with 30% of the population lighting up compared with 27% in the country as a whole.
According to the World Health Organisation, one out of every two long-term smokers will be killed by tobacco.
        
        
From 1985-2000, tobacco has killed more than 60 million people in the developed countries alone, more than died in World War Two.
In the North East it's a similar story with one of the worst mortality rates from smoking-related illnesses in the UK.
In this part of the country 85 men and 44 women per 100,000 contract lung cancer each year compared to the national average of 72 men and 35 women.
But what would be the effect of declaring war on tobacco, and would smokers be happy to comply with a ban on smoking in public places?
Inside Out decided to find out. We asked the University of Newcastle's Medical School to carry out a survey into smoking.
The results suggest that the majority of people would support an overall smoking ban in public places.
Sixty three per cent of North Easterners surveyed were in favour a ban.

An overwhelming majority of 83% agreed with a ban on lighting up in restaurants and cafes.

The main reasons people gave in support of a ban were:
* to improve their own health - 31%
* to improve the health of others - 36%
* to reduce unpleasant smells - 25%
* to prevent environmental damage - 6%
But a third of people in the survey said that they would oppose a ban. Unsurprisingly, the "no" lobby was especially strong from smokers, 56% of whom opposed an overall ban.
The main reasons given were:
* it would be a breach of civil liberties (19%)
* they were active smokers (14%)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sweetfia
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:25 PM

GUEST, you a fuckin coward, you are only saying those things about my dad (El Ted) because you a hidden behind a 'GUEST'. At least my dad and others (for and aginst smoking) have the balls to say what they feel while being logged in as member.

If i ever get to know who you are, you will really live to regret telling my dad to fuck off. I respect everybody elses views on this controversial topic, but no way am i sitting back and letting my dad be spoken to like that.

For those we do not know my dad, please do not take any offense to some of my dad's post it they seem abit personal, it's just his sence of humour.

Neway, back to the topic. There are smoking folk clubs and non-smoking folk clubs...non-smokers do have a choice as to where they go, which is why i am confused as to why this thread was started. There will always be smokers, so non-smokers will just have to get used to it. I also have my fair of family horror stories against smoking but i am not about to challenge smokers, they smoke because they want to and there is nothing i can do about it. So why even try!? And there are now alot of pubs which have smoking and non-smoking sections. However, i know some non-smokers will never be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:54 PM

Quite a few years ago now, smoking at work was considered quite normal. Then more and more places of work became non-smoking. The smokers went outside if they wanted a smoke, no problem. Now it is considered very unusual to see someone smoking in an office - people adapt.

I've always thought non-smoking areas in pubs, etc, are a bit daft, something like having a "no-pissing" end in a swimming pool. The total ban on smoking in pubs in Ireland has seemed to have worked quite well, Norway has introduced the same legislation within the last couple of months? I'm pretty certain the UK will follow.

I smoke, but due to the habit of nipping outside, acquired at work, I never smoke indoors, be it my house or in a pub. Cut down the amount I smoke dramatically. No smoking law inside pubs, great news, they can't bring it in quick enough - people adapt.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:25 PM

Well said, Sweetfia. there arent half some offensive ****s around here, but as you point out they lurk as GUESTS. Best ignored, but it's very difficult to ignore the seriously obnoxious if they barge into your space and start screamig offensive drivel. I try to avoid arguing with guest trolls but it's so tempting sometimes you can't help yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: ossonflags
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:39 PM

I wonder how many of these people who are trumpeting from the roof tops about us drug addicts, drive motor vehicles that sling out massive amounts of toxic fumes and use these same vehicles to drive to their non smoking sessions.

Call me an old traditionalist if you will, but I will stick to smoking and farting.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: JudeL
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 01:47 PM

Setting aside all the hype & dogmatism, for me it does come down to choices & consideration.

If at a venue a smoker wanting to smoke choses to leave the room for a few minutes, get their fix (for it is an addiction, like any other) they can then return to the room and carry on enjoying the music & the company. It costs them little but courtesy as while they are actually smoking (as opposed to leaving their cigarette smoldering in an ashtray) they are not using their hands & mouth to sing or play.

For someone for whom smoke is a problem, it is rarely sufficient to go outside & get a "fix" of fresh air, which will then "magically" counteract the effect of the smoke & enable them to return to enjoy the music & the company. It is more likely that they will have to leave & not return.

I am one of those who do not smoke & cannot cope with a smoky atmosphere. Since developing asthma,it is no longer a choice but an imperative as there are times when I literally cannot breathe because of poor air quality. There are any number of places I would like to go & music I would like to enjoy but because a few choose to smoke in the venue I have no choice but to stay away. This includes any number of places where I have paid for my ticket to enter only to find that I cannot stay because I cannot breathe. It has been said that no-one is forced to go to a smoking venue & this is true but it is also true that the choices of smokers limit the choices of others.

If a person choses to smoke I am not going to bother to remind them of all the health problems they are liable to be causing themselves & others. They cannot live in our society without being aware of it & if they chose to ignore / minimise or disbelieve that then nothing that is said to them will change their minds.

I am not going to descend to the playground mentality of name calling or the one upmanship of the impact of weight or drink on individuals health, nor would I suggest trying to force people to give up smoking.

But I do believe that it is as simplistic and self absorbed to say " if they don't like my smoke they don't have to come to public places", as it is for the non smoker to suggest legislation banning all sales of tobacco (as prohibition in america once tried to ban alcohol). Neither idea has the merit of common sense or consideration for others.

I would however ask that those who chose to smoke consider the limits that their behaviour and choices impose on others.

You don't need to be a tree hugging, brown rice eating, vegetarian hippy to believe that everyone should be able to have the choice & freedom to go to places to enjoy music.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 02:21 PM

JudeL: thank God, someone I can seriously agree with. I am sure your approach is the way forward. And you will, incidentally win(I confidently predict). I doubt if there will be many smoky sessions in a couple of years time, law change or not. Public opinion is changing, thank God.
And, yes I have been uttering simplistic stuff on this thread (you have to, when you are arguing with unfortunately challenged people); but I hope you are not accusing me of saying "if they dont like my smoke, they dont have to come to public places". To set the record straight, I am a non-smoker. But I do not wish my smoking friends to be abused by hypocrites for doing what they've always done in pubs where that's what people do.
    And I continue to find the argument unanswerable "if you want to criticise smokers in a pub, turn up on a bike or in your own two feet". Drivers criticisng smokers is just the height (or depth) of gut-churning hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 03:35 PM

El Ted, only if those ugly people were damaging other people's lungs.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 05:26 PM

A man I care very deeply for ended up with cancer of the throat as a result of many years as a smoker. He has not, to date, regained the wonderful voice that was destroyed as a result of the cancer and this has put a stop to his activities as a storyteller and folk singer. He also recently underwent heart bypass surgery, probably brought on, again, as a result of many year's smoking.

He is unable,as a result, to tolerate smoky atmospheres. Unfortunately most of the venues for folk music that I know of are in pubs where smoking is permitted. Ergo, we have found it difficult to go to the places that allow us to enjoy the music we love.

I am an ex smoker, gave up twenty years ago and am glad that I did. I find, myself, that sitting near smokers can leave my throat feeling very uncomfortable and quite often THEY have come and sat near ME, not the other way round.

I would welcome the idea of some pubs being non-smoking. That would allow me to go to sessions in those pubs without having to breathe in other people's smoke. If that were the case and I wanted to start a session I would choose a non-smoking pub. If others want to smoke then, OK, maybe they can go to pubs that allow this but don't run folk sessions. Would that make everyone happy? I wonder, if there was a choice, how many organisers would choose a smokers' pub?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 12:09 AM

On the passive smoking question.

I'm a non-smoker.   Smoke bothers me a lot--in a smoky pub I will move around trying to find a place that isn't as smoky, including sitting on the floor, hoping the smoke will rise. I wouldn't dream of asking people not to smoke while I'm in the pub. I've been in at least one very smoky pub when some of the best, and certainly the most fun music I've ever heard was sung. I was privileged to be a part of it and I would never have left the pub voluntarily.

However, this topic brings up a related one. I'm sure you've noticed the heartbreakingly long list of obits on Mudcat of musicians in general. It's fairly obvious that at least of those on this list who made their living mostly by playing or singing music, many were either smokers or were exposed to smoke on a continuous basis for years. Who's to say that if they hadn't either smoked or been exposed to smoke for a protracted period (probably decades) that many wouldn't still be with us? Some of the most talented people in various different spheres have smoked themselves to death, including Nat King Cole, Bogart, and Ian Fleming.

We non-smokers are not just our own advocates, nor are we holier-than-thou do-gooders.   We really want you talented smokers, (many with great repertoires, winning personalities and amazingly good voices, considering all the smoking you do) to be around for a long time, so the entire folk community can continue to benefit from your wonderful talents. You are fantastic people--why don't you want to stay around?

The best way to maximize the chances of this is for you to quit smoking, or at least cut back.   Nobody who steps outside for a smoke will ever smoke as much as somebody who stays inside lighting one after the other, This of course is partly since nobody wants to miss the music.

I know one session leader, with a great voice, who has made exactly this switch--she no longer smokes inside, but will step outside for a cigarette. Both music and smoking are addictions, but since they are, there is a chance the healthier of the two will win out, even for smokers.

Here's Big Mick, in the most polite way possible, asking if he can continue to participate in pub sessions without being forced to run the risk of joining all those other talented musicians whom we will never hear live again. Isn't that a reasonable request? The less smoky a pub is, the better for everybody, including smokers.

Again, everybody, even smokers, recognizes that smoking is unhealthy, in fact life-endangering. You smokers are great people--why don't you want to stay around?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 04:04 AM

76

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 04:04 AM

I'd ban all Yorkshire gits from sessions. They are all fat, ugly, pie eating, smokers anyway...;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 05:26 AM

I think smokers will have to bow to the inevitable: smoking will be banned in UK pubs restaurants, etc sometime soon.

In Ireland it has resulted in most pubs making provision for smokers with outside areas where a smoke can still be enjoyed along with a pint, and where there is music it can usually still be heard in these areas. For the smoker, it becomes no more than a minor inconvenience.

wr (sometime singer and inveterate smoker)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 06:17 AM

Last night at The Marlborough club was fabulous! We developed an excellent blue smoke haze in the room, it got that dense we had to open the window in the end, what a waste! So thanks to Dave o, les, maggie, mick, jOhn, claire and chum for contibuting to the fog.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 06:39 AM

Sorry I could only fart Ted, but I dont smoke because its a filthy habit.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 06:50 AM

When I were a lad, we didn't 'ave any of this passive smoking - yer 'ad ter buy yer own !

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 08:52 AM

Just thinking outside the box isn't it the case that, the more that smokers insist on their right to smoke anywhere they want regardless of how they affect other people, the more likely it is that it will be made illegal in the very places they claim to be their rightful territory, the pubs? By fighting progress, aren't the smokers merely hastening the inevitable?

I'm going to Market Rasen Folk Club tonight - smoking's banned but I'm hoping there'll be a farting contest at half-time. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 09:07 AM

Don't follow through

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 09:39 AM

Oh dear, does that mean I have to hand the gas masks out Strollin', or are you going to do it outside with the smokers?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,smoker
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 09:44 AM

Attention non-smokers!!!!

We know that smoking will probably kill us long before our time. We don't care.

We've seen friends and family die from smoking. We don't care.

We know that our second-hand smoke is a health hazard to our children and other people around us. We don't care.

We know that smoking wrinkles our skin and makes us look much older than we really are. We don't care.

We know that smoking makes our clothes and bodies stink worse than a room full of farting bean eaters. We don't care.

We know how much money we spend on smokes and we know that most of it is extra taxes you health nazis don't pay. We don't care.

Get it? We don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 09:45 AM

I might sneak up and blow smoke through your windows, nail them shut just in case. Hang on, where the hell is Market Rasen anyway? West Yorkshire?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 09:46 AM

It's in Lincolnshire

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 11:13 AM

Ted! Be nice - you know it's in the Land Of Sheep-Shaggers, Lincolnshire!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 11:24 AM

I have reason to be worried about tonight!!!!
Sheepshagging fart wrenching smokers - oh my god, the club will close.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 11:35 AM

Relax girls. In 2hours 41minutes (approx) I will be in Whitby for the night.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 11:51 AM

Ah, smog warning for Whitby area. (LOL)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sooz
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 05:27 AM

The morning after... a bit bleary eyed after not getting home from Market Rasen until nearly 1am, but breathing easily and not having to stuff all of our clothes into the washing machine. A great night. Lincoln folk club tonight, no smoking there either.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 12:36 PM

Not getting home till nearly 1 am ?
Did you get held up by a tractor then?
What timne was it when you left the club?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 07:18 PM

Government Health warning; igniting cigarettes and farting at the same time can lead to explosion: fart gas contains methane.
Being a grass-roots health service worker, I can only say that many smokers have immense powers of self-delusion, and they are totally incapable of giving you a straight answer as to how many they smoke. Most people who give up only do so after they've had their first heart attack/stroke/blood clot. Smoking does you more harm than being overweight, but being both a smoker and overweight is even more lethal.
Now that there are actually more non-smokers about than smokers, surely the majority's preference should prevail over the minority's?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sooz
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 05:30 AM

Now then Les - we had to take Strollin' into town before we came home . Did you think we made him walk?
TB you are quite correct, butisn't that also about the time people start to be honest about how much they drink as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 05:40 AM

Oh of course - forgot about that one. Wondered why you were so late.

Drinking - I'll be honest - not enough :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,ted in shreddies
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 08:28 AM

97

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,not ted
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 08:31 AM

98

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,not ted
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 08:32 AM

99

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: GUEST,the real thing
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 08:33 AM

100. i thank you. my work here is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 10:33 AM

But not quite, el Ted me lad!

I started this thread to see what people thought about inhaling second-hand fag smoke, and I am pleased to say there has been some good, lively debate on both sides.

As a reformed smoker, the worst type of self-righteous git you will come across, I fall into the anti-smokers, pro-ban camp, though it will be a sad day really. Better if the smaggos exercised a little consideration for the majority and nipped out for a puff between songs, then we can all continue to enjoy the music well all love so much, together.

stigWeard the pork-scratching munching, beer-swilling white-bread-eating non-hippy leftie

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 11:47 AM

A report this week out of the UK, I think, announced conclusive proof that second hand smoke increases the risk of heart attack dramatically. The most interesting part of the study's conclusions is that it does not take prolonged exposure to produce results as previously thought. I heard this on a TV news report. See if I can find more.
M.

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 11:51 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3600049.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sooz
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 11:56 AM

What goes around comes around!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 04:30 PM

Ted Think Shed

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

Sooz: shertainly - hic!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: el ted
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 04:35 AM

Good morning hippies,
                     I have returned from a weeks mountain biking on't moors and come back to find you all still at it! Anyway, I digress, for all you lurking smokers out there I must share this tit bit with you. Yesterday I found a gorgeous smokers requisites shop in Whitby called Gawith Hoggarth's, where they have literally dozens of different hand rolling tobaccos. I bought an ounce of "black cherry" and an ounce of "Turners" divine!
          Brown rice, the true path!

Subject: RE: BS: Passive smoking at sessions
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 06:40 AM

Ted just so as you are aware "Gawith Hoggarth's" is Latin for Whitby Waste Recycling Emporium.