ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: Jos
Date: 11 May 21 - 08:07 AM

I'm glad you asked, as it prompted me to look back through the thread.
The information was given by Maggie Holland herself, in 2004:

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Maggie Holland - PM
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:49 AM

Back to the original question for a moment - yes, the "Mr Harding" in "A Place Called England" is indeed a reference to my earlier song "A Proper Sort of Gardener". Mr Harding was employed as a gardener for many years by Courages Brewery in Alton, Hants. He tended several gardens of houses that were owned by the brewery, including the one that I lived in as a child. The last time I met him was when I was visiting my parents' grave in Alton (in the early 80s, I think) and although long retired he had chosen to keep gardening by helping to keep the cemetery tidy.

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:13 AM

oops, my apology.

Dave H

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: Jos
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:00 AM

To Dave Hanson

See this post:

From: GUEST,henryp - PM
Date: 04 May 21 - 04:48 AM

"A Mr. Harding sort of England, hanging in there by a thread."

Mr Harding was the subject of an earlier song by Maggie Holland, "A Proper Sort of Gardener". A retired brewery worker, he was the gentle gardener in the house she grew up in in Alton, Hampshire, the head brewer's house.
. . .

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:41 AM

CULVERTON HOUSE

Early maps will show whether the brewey took its garden. If so we need to do 'A House Through Time' and see if Mr Harding appears in the records.

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:39 AM

What has that got to do with this song ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:13 AM

The big house by the entrance is a Regency beauty, fallen on hard times, with not a lot of land around it, considering the sort of house it is. Here it is.

It could well have been the head brewer's - the brewery long predates the Harp Lager connection. I think at some point it may have been used as office space.

The old Maltings, a short walk from the brewery site, have been beautifully modernised and adapted, and are now run by a church as their place of worship and an arts venue - I've seen some nice, simple, opera stagings there, and even performed there myself (not folk as such - guitar and voice with a musical theatre group).

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 May 21 - 02:44 AM

A great song IMHO Joe.

Dave H

Subject: ADD: Perfumes of Arabia (Maggie Holland)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 21 - 06:14 PM

Another good song by Maggie Holland: Perfumes of Arabia

I was driving on a journey when I turned my radio on
Thinking to hear a story or some old familiar song
But all I heard were voices telling me a foreign war
They were counting Scuds and Patriots, they were telling me the score

I heard the voice of the airman as his plane fell from the sky
I heard the man in the foxhole as he watched his brother die
I heard the last sad song of the dolphin as he drowned in a filthy sea
I heard the mother weep aloud for her dead child on her knee

They say the sands are filled with corpses and the wells are filled with blood
The snows on the distant mountains make many's the tiny shroud
The clouds are black as thunder, they do not hold sweet rain
There is only death and poison to fall to earth again

I couldn't bear to hear it so I turned the volume down
Turned into a garage in some little Hampshire town
Filled up my car as I took the air of this green and pleasant land
And then I recognised the smell of blood upon my hand

I've tried sandalwood and roses, I've tried Eau de Cologne as well
Calvin Klein, Chanel number 5, it cannot ease the smell
I've tried in every Body Shop I can find throughout the land
But the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 21 - 03:25 PM

Guest Mark

Bass Brewing (Alton), Manor Park Brewery, Alton, Hampshire. This large Harp Lager brewery was established by the Harp Consortium in 1961. The Consortium consisted of Guinness in partnership with Courage Barclays, Mitchells & Butlers, and Scottish & Newcastle. It first brewed in December 1962. In September 1979, Bass Charrington Ltd acquired the brewery and the adjacent Alton Brewery Co site. The brands brewed were predominantly Carling and Tennents. Following the government's 'beer orders', Bass sold the brewery to Coors in December 2001.

UrbexCamo JANUARY 18, 2018 AT 11:52 PM Just an update… working next to the site at the moment and security is still quite hot but there are ways in! New cameras up sice the last few times we got in but externally nothing has changed in years. There is also a big abandoned house belonging to the brewery to the left of the main gate, worth a look if you're there.

A big abandoned house belonging to the brewery...could that be the house for the head brewer of the Alton Brewery?

Subject: RE: ADD: A Place Called England (Maggie Holland)
From: DaveRo
Date: 04 May 21 - 01:37 PM

GUEST,Bob wrote: I know someone who knew Daniel, aka Swampy. Unfortunately he gave up being an eco warrior to be - I kid you not - an accountant.

Swampy may be an accountant - though I doubt it - but he's still an eco-warrior. Most recently down a tunnel at Euston station in London with his teenaged son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swampy_(environmentalist)

There's a reference in there to a song written about him: "The Fairmile Road Protest Song (Digging Down)"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Place Called England
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 04 May 21 - 11:22 AM

As an Alton resident, I was interested by henryp's information.

The Coors Brewery demolition is now well underway, and there are (supposedly) plans for a less brutal development on Mr Harding's garden.

Knowing the developers, I doubt the results will resemble the artists' impressions very closely.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Place Called England
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 04 May 21 - 09:21 AM

I've been reviving this excellent song of Maggie's a lot recently (not least as a relevant calendarical entry on sessions!), and I sang it at the Mudcat Singaround yesterday.
I find the text doesn't really vary between the original versions sung by June Tabor and Maggie Holland herself.
I did notice that Maggie on her 2012 YouTube live recording sings "come from" instead of "belong" at the end of the second line of the first verse, also she adds "So" at the start of verse 5, and sings "badly used" instead of "sore abused" in the first line of the final verse....
Most recently, the Young'Uns covered the song on their "Strangers" CD, and made a couple of changes to the lyric, as follows: singing "just" instead of "only" in the final line of verse 2, and substituting as the final line of verse 6, "Just less room for the rich landowner, he can stay in the Virgin Isles".
So there you go Joe, hope that cleans up sufficiently! It's still a very powerful song, with so many important resonances for our time. A true classic IMHO.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Place Called England
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:52 AM

June Tabor - Place Called England

LFF

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Place Called England
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 04 May 21 - 04:48 AM

"A Mr. Harding sort of England, hanging in there by a thread."

Mr Harding was the subject of an earlier song by Maggie Holland, "A Proper Sort of Gardener". A retired brewery worker, he was the gentle gardener in the house she grew up in in Alton, Hampshire, the head brewer's house.

From Mainly Norfolk; Maggie Holland sang her own song A Proper Sort of Gardener. on her 1992 album Down to the Bone. She commented in the album's sleeve notes: "I was exclusively a singer of other people's songs who didn't believe she could write, until 1987 when Jon Moore persuaded me to do so through a combination of nagging and encouragement. Initially, he also wrote tunes for my words; included are Sandy Hill, Never Too Late, and A Proper Sort of Gardener. The latter is, like all the best once-upon-a-time stories, completely true; the Bass beer factory still stands on the site of Mr Harding's garden in Alton, Hants. Mr Harding was recently laid to rest in the same graveyard as my parents."

And now the brewery too is no more than a memory. In 2014, Heineken announced that it would not be renewing the contract and, as a result, Molson Coors embarked on a review of its UK brewery network. That resulted in the brewery's closure in May 2015 to end 52 years of brewing on the Manor Park site, and the loss of 108 jobs. According to CALA Homes, it will be working closely with Molson Coors and East Hampshire District Council "to deliver a sustainable, residentially-led, mixed-use scheme that will provide much-needed housing in the area".

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:05 AM

WAV - Maggie had been living North of the Border for YEARS before she wrote 'A Place called England'

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:49 AM

Last I heard, after releasing "A Place Called England", Maggie Holland moved to Scotland..?

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Pete Stanton
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:04 AM

Have just discovered this place. What a fantastic source of information, especially when Maggie Holland herself joins in. Many thanks to you all.
Peter

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:39 AM

Lovely songs those we heard them from Stitherum and they really bring the images to life.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,GUEST, RTS
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 11:49 PM

Check out June Tabor's performance on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV6xiU4XyoM

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:53 AM

Bekki,
You haven't said whether you managed to get Bill Caddick CD's yeat. He sends them out direct from his home in Jackfield. That's how I got mine; gave him a cheque and he sent it in the post.

The double CD retrospective "UnicornsW is well woth having.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:38 PM

What a brilliant idea though I fear you're not giving them an awful lot of time to rehearse for it!

Good cue to plug Ceilidh Aid yet again though. All artists (Tiger Moth, Oysterband, Gloworms, Eliza Carthy, Billy Bragg, Morris Offspring, Hammersmith Morris) performing without fee and all proceeds going to the tsunami relief fund. At The Forum, Kentish Town, 7 pm to 1 am.

All details here.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Lettie
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:13 PM

They're on the same bill on Saturday at the Forum in London, Maggie in her other role as bassperson in Tigermoth and Billy with the Blokes. And its Staint George day. Perhaps a duet set on A Place Called England, A New England and The World Turned Upside Down would be in order . . . ?

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: NormanD
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:56 PM

"...the ultimate folk song for England."

Agreed! When will Billy Bragg record it?

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: breezy
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:53 AM

This song is for me the ultimate folk song for England.

It deserves all the accolades it gets.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Dave H
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM

Maggie's last 2 CDs can be ordered from Robb Johnson
www.irregularrecords.co.uk

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:57 AM

Peter,
Finally occurred to me to start another thread and someone did suggest Hobgoblin
Bekki

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:16 PM

You could try Hobgoblin, or start a new thread such as "CD shop in London for Folk Music - Where?"

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:54 PM

Thanks for the help, I'm still hoping to find a cd shop in London...

Bekki

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Willa
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:19 PM

A google search brought up this website for Maggie Hollan CDs. Don't know whether they are still available, but it's worth a try.http://www.rhiannonrecords.co.uk/text/5008.html

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Willa
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:11 PM

Bearheart
Can't help with your original request, but here's the Bill Caddick website- you could email him to find out where to get his CDs from.

Bill Caddick link http://matm.co.uk/BillCaddick/

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Bearheart, visiting Kent
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:30 AM

I posted in August, hoping someone would know of a shop here I could get some CDs (also interested in Les Barker and Bill Caddick, by the way).
No one answered my query. But we're going up to London tomorrow to see the British Museum and possibly a couple of other things. It's my second visit here and we're just getting to London but I have made it to the New Forest,Avebury, the Pinetum and Kingley Vale this time. Incredible! I didn't think anything could come close to the Uffington Horse, Stonehenge, Chalice Well and Wayland's Smithy (our last visit) but I was wrong!... And I've still not made it to Ireland, Scotland or the Isle of Mann...

But one day in the city is about all I can manage! So maybe if no one knows a shop near me, there is one in London that wouldn't be too hard to find?
Thanks
Bekki

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Sooz
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:11 AM

I agree - it's so much more "English"! (Especially with the Morris-type tune tacked on the end.)

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:51 AM

I just got the Maggie Holland CD 'Getting There' from my wife for my birthday. I had a quick listen to Maggie's original version of 'A PLace Called England' - I love it, a really superb version and better than the June Tabor one (which I alway liked).

I'll listen to the rest of the CD this afternoon after the pub!

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Bearheart
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:38 PM

So where can we find these Maggie Holland CDs in the US? And are there record shops in Kent where I can find them when I come over?

Bekki

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Maggie Holland
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 08:29 AM

Thanks for this information, Mick - she is almost certainly the Eileen I remembered reading about!

Maggie

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:13 PM

Maggie

The woman was probably Eileen Halliday of Dudbridge who took on Sainsbury's. See Saving Nine - Biography of Eileen Halliday

Mick

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:40 AM

I'll second Sooz on that Maggie, high time you came back to Gainsborough. Your previous visit was one of our best nights ever, IMHO. And we've got a new, bigger and far quieter room now!
Best wishes,
John :0)

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:58 AM

Thanks Maggie!

I'm off to have a twang on me bouzouki . . .

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:36 AM

Maggie - You are TOO kind !!

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Maggie Holland
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:21 AM

The chords I play are:

G D G G C G G D
G D G G C G D G
C G D G C G D G
C G D G C G D G

I attempt to pick out the tune on the treble strings while playing these. It's also easy on the banjo if you're a frailer.

If you fancy dancing to it ( and why not?) I'm told it's a sort of hornpipe.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:03 AM

Yes, thanks for the info Maggie.

I will be looking up the books in the song, especially on the Diggers, who really interest me. The song reflects a fundamental point about the nature of English consiousness that is sometimes forgotten and almost never commented upon by the chatterers in the media- our connection (or lack thereof) with the land.

During the recent wave of flag-waving brought about by Euro 2004, an article in the Observer (or Grauniad), asked two people about their identity as English. One, a townie sort (like myself), gave the usual answers about reclaiming the flag etc, but the other chap, a farmer from the Cotswolds if memory serves me correctly, said his connection was with the land, and how could anyone know England (or any other part of the world) if they are not connected to the land?

It is this point which 'A Place Called England' makes so beautifully, and why the song seems to inspire such emotions when people discuss it - the more info, the merrier!

Would it be too cheeky to ask which chords you play?

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:02 AM

Thanks for all that Maggie!
Time you came back to Gainsborough - you could become a member, its a great way to keep in touch.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Maggie Holland
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:49 AM

Back to the original question for a moment - yes, the "Mr Harding" in "A Place Called England" is indeed a reference to my earlier song "A Proper Sort of Gardener". Mr Harding was employed as a gardener for many years by Courages Brewery in Alton, Hants. He tended several gardens of houses that were owned by the brewery, including the one that I lived in as a child. The last time I met him was when I was visiting my parents' grave in Alton (in the early 80s, I think) and although long retired he had chosen to keep gardening by helping to keep the cemetery tidy.

I alerted his son John to your discussion, which he has been reading with interest.

Sooz seems to have got the words down pretty accurately - I would just point out that in the last line of "Place Called England" I sing
"We shall plant the seed they saved US, common wealth and common ground"
(rather than "as") - but mind you, I don't play the same chords as Hamish either (no minors) -the folk process is alive and well!

If anyone can remember the surname of Eileen in the Cotswolds who wouldn't sell her garden to Sainsbury/Tesco/whoever I'd be grateful to know it, as people often ask me about her and I failed to keep the original press cutting.

I first read about the Diggers etc in Christopher Hill's scholarly book "The World Turned Upside-Down". Leon's fine song paraphrases quite a bit of their manifesto. And a novelist's impression of the times can be found in Naomi Mitcheson's "The sea-green ribbons".

There are quite a few more references to books, songs, etc in " A Place Called England", but that'll have to do for now.

All the best

Maggie

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:54 AM

Good Old Days? 'Twas a mere half decade or so ago that Maggie recorded A Place Called England on her solo album Getting there with Alan Prosser of the Oysterband guesting.

Soon afterwards, June Tabor's recording won Best Original Song at the 1999 BBC Folk Awards.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:24 AM

Guest Ohh-Aah , I humbly suggest that you find the Maggie Holland recording and forget about the June Tabor version . I still have fond memories of busking this on whistle with Maggie back in the good old days .

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 05:38 PM

The lyrics of this song are excellent (albeit with that touch of apology for daring to love one's own country which infects too many modern English songs), but I found June Tabor's singing of it a great disappointment - tremulous and whispery, with no guts or anger. She always sounds as if she has too much saliva in her mouth and is frightened to sing properly for fear it will spill out.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:52 AM

Cheers Hamish!

I'll have a go on my bouzouki this afternoon.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 05:41 AM

Try:
D A D D
G D(F#) Em A
D A D D
G D(F#) Em/A D

G D(F#) Em D
G D(F#) Em D
G D(F#) Em D
G D(F#) Em/A D

with tuning as drop D.

(Off the top of my head I think that's how I play it, nut it's not always easy to remember without a guitar in place. And I'm at work in an open plan office, and, yes? what's that? yes, right away sir! Certainly. No - it won't happen again)

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 05:35 AM

Swampy an accountant?

Heck.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 05:10 AM

I know someone who knew Daniel, aka Swampy. Unfortunately he gave up being an eco warrior to be - I kid you not - an accountant.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 04:34 AM

I can't find the chords for this song anywhere, can anyone post a version with chords?

I am sure this song wil be entering into the tradition!

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 02:53 AM

I have just got this e-mail from Maggie:

"In the last verse of 'A Place called England' I have in mind the St George's Hill Diggers - in fact when I do the song on gigs I usually include Leon's 'World Turned Upside Down' earlier in the same set. Thus:

"'We shall plant the seed they saved us, common wealth and common ground.'

"Swampy Daniel and Muppet(?)Dave indeed make an appearance, but only in the 5th verse."

So thanks, Stigweard and Countess Richard, another aspect of the genealogy of the song which I hadn't suspected.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 06:49 PM

I was talking to Maggie on the phone on Sunday - She said she might get round to putting some information up regarding the background etc to the song . I hope she does get round to it .

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 10:50 AM

As in Leon Rosselson's excellent World Turned Upside Down, lyrics here , on Billy Bragg's site.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 10:13 AM

I am so pleased with nthe way this thread has turned out - thanks for all those who have contributed! I loved the song the first time I heard it, and knowingwhat all the lyrics mean has made it even more special - it sums up exactly how I feel about our green and pleasant land.


I think the crazy diggers doesn't refer to Dave and Daniel, but to a protest movement started in 1649 by a chap ,called Gerrad Winstanley. These guys are still ahead of our time now, let alone ahead of theirs back then.

These sites tell it far better than I can:

First is the bilderberg site here, the second here.

Winstanley and the other Diggers were true revolutionaries, committed to non-violent direct action, whatever the provocation, simply to return the land to the ownership of the people where it belongs - but don't get me started on that subject!

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:20 AM

Why can't we adopt Maggie Holland's brilliant song as our national anthem? It beats the Hell out of the turgid dross we have at the moment.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST, Hamish again
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 03:29 AM

Actually, Swampy's ("Daniel"'s) main cause celebre was the Newbury bypass in Oxfordshire, where the campaign of disruption was carried on for, oh, a year or more(?). Britain is a small country: and roads are overcrowded, but the environmental damage caused by building more and more is proportionately huge. Not only does it build on sensitive environments, but "islandisation" (where particular habitats are sliced into ever smaller areas until they're individually too small to support a viable population of ceratin species.)

Yesterday the government announced a plan to expand a 61 mile stretch of the M6 between Birmingham and Manchester to ten lanes from the current six.

"Here's two cheers for the crazy diggers;
now their hour shall come around
We shall plant the seed they saved
as common wealth and common ground"

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 03:15 AM

Sorry, Bearheart: I thought the George and Arthur were fairly obvious (you're absolutely right, btw: hence the "Deck the horse... drag the old sword from the deep") and threw in a joke which alluded to a cult UK TV show from the late 70s - a West London version of Starsky and Hutch called "Minder".

Dave and Daniel are indeed two "diggers" who used tunnels amongst other active forms of protest to try to stop anvironmentally suspect projects such as the motorway which cut Twyford Downs into two with a huge ugly scar through a beautiful piece of landscape. As Leadfingers and Countess R said earlier: Daniel was the Swampy who gained quite a profile in the media at the time.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Bearheart
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:01 PM

I always assumed that the guys' names were mythical heroes of England

Arthur,as in King
George, as in Saint

and I thought Dave and Daniel referred to deceased statesmen-- but since I'm an American and not very knowedgeable about English history I don't know who the "good guys" and the "bad guys" in British gov history are, this might be more than shaky...

Great thread-- I love all of her songs I've heard, but all second hand via June Tabor. Tried to find her albums when I was over last year but no luck. We have another teaching trip planned for October- in Somerset and Kent-- anyone know of a record shop in those areas where I can find her stuff? (I don't do Amazon/credit cards/etc). What's the best album to get?

Bekki

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Willa
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 03:25 PM

Wow; Leadfingers, CR, Ed and Hamish - fascinating background info that. Many thanks!

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 02:33 PM

George slew Mildred's dragon, Arthur just penned it?

Port and Brandy (Moira Craig and Mrs Admiral) sing A Proper Sort of Garden.

Kitty

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:56 AM

Dave and Daniel; George and Arthur. An easy mistake.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:57 AM

I've never come into contact with Arthur Pint, Hamish, but I know his big brother very well!

Just remembered, the Landlord of the Winchester was called Dave not George. Some confusion with Arthur Daley being played by George Cole I guess.

Seriously off topic by now I guess!

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:33 AM

Oh dear, Countess: I think I preferred not knowing that.

Kevin: you'll remember George and Mildred? And it's proably Arthur Pint.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 05:27 AM

Hamish,

I seem to recall that Tesco went ahead and built the carpark around the objector. Didn't they invite her to the opening, which she attended carrying a Sainsbury's carrier bag?

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:41 AM

So Hamish, which George and Arthur is it then? ;-)

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 02:57 AM

Okay: above are right so far. Eileen was the little lady in a Cotwolds village who wouldn't sell Tesco the little strip of land they needed for access to be able to build an adge of town supermarket, causing then to have to abandon the whole project.

I asked Robb J about Meeta a few months ago: apparently they longer live underneath the big jets' path.

However, there's no truth in the rumour that George and Arthur are Arthur Daly and George, the landlord of The Winchester. (This joke previously published in uk.music.folk.)

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

I hope to be seeing Maggie in Edinburg next week . I will tell her of the continued interest in her music .

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 04:33 PM

June Tabor recorded "A Proper Sort of Gardener" on her 1997 CD "Aleyn", and "A Place Called England" on "A Quiet Eye" (2000). Good versions both. Thanks for the info on the songwriter!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 03:40 PM

Sorry, my link doesn't work. I copied the url, pasted it, previewed it. If you click it, you get commercial nonsense.

Exactly what Maggie meant, I think....

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 03:35 PM

I think that countess richard, is right. As this piece shows, 'Disco Dave' was also important in the protest

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 03:17 PM

Daniel, IIRC, was otherwise known as Swampy who became so celebrated at the time that he got invited onto Have I Got News For You.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 02:17 PM

I think Meeta is probably Robb Johnson's wife , based on Maggie being an old friend of Robb,s and playing bass in the R J Band back in the bad old days . Dave and Daniel could just be a couple of the people who were involved in the M3 protest , when they had all sorts of Tunnels they were hiding in .

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Willa
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 11:35 AM

Seaking beat me to it. Two beautiful songs, and I too assumed the Mr Harding in 'A Place called England' to be the one mentioned in 'A Proper Sort of Garden'. I'm not sure that Meeta, Eileen, Dave and Daniel are any particular people, but it would be interesting to know.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Sooz
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM

Oops sorry!
BTW I'd like to know who Dave and Daniel are as well.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Seaking
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 10:52 AM

Minor correction to lyrics by Sooz ( missed third line)

Once upon a time I found a garden
Picked the brightest things that I could see
An apron full of Mr Harding's flowers
I didn't know that he was watching me
Straight away my mother ran to tell him
Wondering what he would say or do
Mr Harding smiled and said "She's just a little child
I knew that she'd be picking them for you"

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 10:22 AM

Thanks everyone! This is such agood song, it is good to be able to understand who everyone is in it.

Thinking about it, who are Dave and Daniel?

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 09:39 AM

Maggie is one of the most UNDER rated singer/songwriters in UK . Mr Hardings Garden is just ONE of many superb songs she has written .

Subject: Lyr Add: A PLACE CALLED ENGLAND (Maggie Holland)
From: Sooz
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 07:45 AM

A PLACE CALLED ENGLAND (On Maggie's album "Getting There")


I rode out on a bright May morning like a hero in a song
Looking for a place called England trying to find where I belong
Couldn't find the old flood meadow or the house that I once knew
No trace of the little river or the garden where I grew

I saw town and I saw country motorway and sink estate
Rich man in his rolling acres poor man still outside the gate
Retail park and Burger kingdom prairie field and factory farm
Run by men who think that England's only a place to park their car

But as the train pulled from the station through the wastelands of despair
From the corner of my eye a brightness filled the filthy air
Someone's sown a patch of sunflowers though the soil is sooty black
Marigolds and a few tomatoes right beside the railway track

Down behind the terraced houses in between the concrete towers
Compost heaps and scarlet runners secret gardens full of flowers
Meeta grows her scented roses right beneath the big jets' path
Bid a fortune for her garden Eileen turns away and laughs

Rise up George and wake up Arthur time to rouse out from your sleep
Deck the horse with sea green ribbons drag the old sword from the deep
Hold the line for Dave and Daniel as they tunnel through the clay
While the oak in all its glory soaks up sun for one more day

come all you at home with freedom whatever the land that gave you birth
There's room for you both root and branch as long as you love the English earth
Room for vole and room for orchid room for all to grow and thrive
Just less room for the fat landowner on his arse in his fourwheel drive

For England is not flag or Empire it is not money and it is not blood
It's limestone gorge and granite fell it's Wealden clay and Severn mud
It's blackbird singing from the may tree lark ascending through the scales
It's robin watching from your spade and English earth beneath your nails
        
So here's two cheers for a place called England sore abused but not yet dead
A Mr Harding sort of England hanging in there by a thread
Here's two cheers for the crazy diggers now their hour shall come around
We shall plant the seed they saved as common wealth and common ground

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Seaking
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 07:39 AM

The song about Mr Harding is called 'A proper sort of Gardener' and is on Maggie's 'Down to the Bone Album'. According to the sleeve notes Mr Harding's garden was in Alton, Hants on a site which is now a Bass beer factory. I havn't heard 'A place called England' but listening to 'Proper sort of Garden' would probably best explain the 'A Mr Harding sort of England' line.

Chris

Subject: Lyr Add: A PROPER SORT OF GARDENER (Maggie Holland
From: Sooz
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 07:37 AM

The original song is "A proper sort of gardener". Mr Harding was an old gentleman that Maggie knew in her own childhood in Hampshire. If you read the words, you will realise what she means by "A Mr Harding sort of England"

A PROPER SORT OF GARDENER

Once upon a time I found a garden
Picked the brightest things that I could see
I didn't know that he was watching me
Straight away my mother ran to tell him
Wondering what he would say or do
Mr Harding smiled and said "She's just a little child
I knew that she'd be picking them for you"

By the fire my dad would tell me stories
One of them concerned a garden too
Where the lion and the lamb lay down together
And every lovely fruit and flower grew
The Gardener sent his children in to play there
Rejoicing in the brightness of the day
But when they went exploring and took a fruit to taste
He cursed them both and sent them on their way

Even then I realised in my childish mind
That he wasn't a proper gardener of the Mr Harding kind

Mr Harding's garden was all taken
By lesser men with concrete in their minds
Factory chimneys grew instead of daisies
No butterflies from that assembly line
My mother faded faster than a flower
Dad sat in the darkness and cried
Mr Harding moves a little slower than before
But still he tends the grave where they both lie

Wherever it is they've gone to I hope that they will find
A proper sort of garden of the Mr Harding kind

The foolish woman sometimes feels despairing and thinks it seems so very hard to find
The child tries to plant a little everywhere she goes that special love of the Mr Harding kind

Some day when I'm older maybe I will find
That I've grown into a gardener of the Mr Harding kind

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: breezy
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 07:28 AM

o k mouse you win. How are you and MCP? Sorry to hear bout the loss of pet.

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: breezy
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 07:27 AM

A gardner from her personal life I think.

See her song 'Hr Harding's garden' I think thats the title


definitely not the one you are thinking of by a long shot

Subject: RE: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 07:24 AM

There is a very beautiful song about a garden "... of the Mr Harding kind ...". Could it be related in some way?

Rhiannon

Subject: A Mr. Harding sort of England . . ?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 07:22 AM

In Maggie Hollands superb "A Place Called England" the lyric goes:

"A Mr.Harding sort of England/Hanging in there by a thread"

Who is Mr.Harding, anmd what does he represent?

It could be Mike, of course, but has anyone got any idea?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words for 'A place called England'
From: John J
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 04:50 PM

Thanks for the offer of help Aux, but Duart beat you to it! Thanks both very much for your help, I'll be pleased to return the favour if I can! Thanks to both of you once again. John

Subject: Lyr Add: A PLACE CALLED ENGLAND (from June Tabor)
From: duart
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 08:22 AM

It's on June Tabor's latest CD and it's a beauty.

A PLACE CALLED ENGLAND
(Maggie Holland)

I rode out on a bright May morning, like a hero in a song,
Looking for a place called England, trying to find where I belong.
Couldn't find the old flood meadow or the house that I once knew,
No trace of the little river or the garden where I grew.

I saw town and I saw country, motorway and sink estate,
Rich man in his rolling acres, poor man still outside the gate,
Retail park and Burger kingdom, prairie field and factory farm,
Run by men who think that England's only a place to park their car.

But as the train pulled from the station, through the wastelands of despair,
From the corner of my eye, a brightness filled the filthy air.
Someone's sown a patch of sunflowers, though the soil is sooty black:
Marigolds and a few tomatoes right beside the railway track.

Down behind the terraced houses, in between the concrete towers,
Compost heaps and scarlet runners, secret gardens full of flowers.
Meeta grows her scented roses right beneath the big jet's path.
Bid a fortune for her garden, Eileen turns away and laughs.

Rise up, George, and wake up, Arthur. Time to rise out from your sleep.
Deck the horse with sea-horse ribbons. Drag the old from the deep.
Hold the line for Dave and Daniel as they tunnel through the clay,
While the oak in all its glory soaks up sun for one more day.

Come all you at home with freedom, whatever the land that gave you birth.
There's room for you both root and branch as long as you love the English earth.
Room for vole and room for orchid, room for all to grow and thrive;
Just less room for the fat landowner on his arse in his four-wheel drive.

For England is not flag or Empire. It is not money and it is not blood.
It's limestone gorge and granite fell. It's Wealden clay and Severn mud.
It's blackbird singing from the may-tree, lark ascending through the scales.
It's robin watching from your spade and English earth beneath your nails.

So, here's two cheers for a place called England, sore abused but not yet dead.
A Mr. Harding sort of England, hanging in there by a thread.
Here's two cheers for the crazy Diggers. Now their hour shall come around.
We shall plant the seed they saved us, as common wealth and common ground.

A great, great song. Glad I could help. Duart
Rise

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words for 'A place called England'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 02:01 AM

Hello. . . if this helps at all, the song "A Place Called England" was written by Maggie Holland (didn't know June Tabor had recorded it). I've got it on a CD issued by FRoots magazine and if necessary can try to copy out the lyrics, that is if no one beats me to it.

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words for 'A place called England'
From: John J
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 07:41 AM

Hiya Patrish, I found the Green Linnet site and found June Tabor's album 'A Quiet Eye' with 'A place called England' on it. But still no words for it! I'll keep looking. Thanks, John

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words for 'A place called England'
From: John J
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 08:44 AM

I don't think the clicky thing worked (i've not sussed them properly yet. I'll try the greenlinnet thingy. Ta loads, John

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words for 'A place called England'
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 06:54 AM

Couldn't find the words but here is a link to an audio file This might be a link: click here

or if it is not this is below

http://www.greenlinnet.com/audio/mp3.htm

This might be my first clicky thing

hopefully
Patrish

Link fixed. You forgot the words "click here" or some equivalent word(s) to click on. --JoeClone, 21-Oct-02.

Woops! Even with my change, it still doesn't work. Apparently the URL just isn't a valid one. --JoeClone, 21-Oct-02.

Subject: Words for 'A place called England'
From: John J
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 06:14 AM

Can anybody help. June Tabor sings this wonderful song: 'A place called England', but I can't find the words anywhere. Help anyone please. Thanks loads, John