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BS: Delete Racist Comments?
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Subject: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Gern Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM Is this Mudcat's policy? I raise this question because of a comment in another thread, which I thought was entirely offensive. I commented that it should be removed. It wasn't, althought it's easy to imagine this escaping an editor's attention. Should offensive postings be reported? Should they be removed at all?
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Ellenpoly Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:45 PM They can be. Best to write a PM to Joe Offer, or go to the HELP section on the homepage of Mudcat (Look right up at the top) and leave a post there. These guys are pretty liberal in what they'll leave in, and often tell you their reasoning. I for one, wouldn't have them be any other way. ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: sledge Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:55 PM What offends you may not allways offend me and vice versa, removing anything and everything that caused offence would soon leave a very sparse forum. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Rapparee Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:00 PM No, I don't think so. We must take the world as it is, not as we would have it, and racism (and other -isms) exist and must be dealt with. The Cafe has had its share of impolite GUESTS who troll for flame wars. Ignore them as best you can, post to the topic, and if want to, hunt them down and kill them on your own time (yes, I'm not serious). That comment got under my skin, too, but I think others in the thread handled it well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: GUEST Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:11 PM I think somebody had a massive rectal spasm last night and used Mudcat and the people posting here as virtual toilet paper. It sucks when people try to be bigger monsters than the those that they're pissed off at. I noticed some of the messages got deleted and others didn't. Maybe it was because people replied? Why do people reply when they think the message shouldn't be there in the first place? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Georgiansilver Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:12 PM It has presumably been suggested at some point that posting on the Cat should be limited to those who have mudcat identities..Are there any previous threads examining this and why do we have "Guest" when he/she can disrupt in such ways? Just asking... Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Big Mick Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:16 PM As a mudelf, I will tell you that we make a concerted attempt not to tamper with postings. We may correct an occasional typo, or fix something folks want fixed, but usually we leave it as you wrote it. If we are not sure, we usually leave it. If it is patently offensive and designed for no other reason than personal attack, it is deleted immdediately. In my time as a joeclone, you could count the times I have done this on one hand. Whenever it is done, we must notify Joe, Max, or Jeff. The emphasis is on letting this place roll on its own, and letting posters be accountable for their comments. I wouldn't have it any other way. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: GUEST,MMario Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:21 PM GS - one of the primary reasons for this forum as as an adjunct to the Digital Tradition - (I know it doesn't seem like it most days - but honest!) To require membership prior to posting would eliminate all questions from casual visitors or those who for some reason cannot accept a cookie (much of the time this includes myself) - it will also prevent (for example) the cookieless from ANSWERING questions - such as when various lyracists and composers have come and answered questions directly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:25 PM It's been my opinion since I started coming here, that this place needs MORE moderation... not that it matters a tinkers cuss... Mudcat... come and sling yer shite around... no one will even clean it up... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Georgiansilver Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM Thanks mmario, that explains much. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: PoppaGator Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM I say leave everything in -- no censorship. My advice to anyone offended by any individual message is to consider the source (i.e., don't blame the group as a whole) and ignore whatever you wish. In the immortal words of my old friend Geoff Gillette: "If you can dig it, dig it; if you don't dig it, then don't dig it!" I had thought it might be a good idea to restrict posting to registered members, but MMario -- himself posting as a "guest" (!?!?) above, at 1:21 PM this date -- put forward some good reasons for allowing all comers to contribute. After considering his ideas, I find that I now agree with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: MMario Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:56 PM and just to prove it - yes that was me. I *can* post under my cookie - but while at work it requires a couple extra steps - and usually just isn't worth it unless I want to verify that it is myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work Date: 03 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM For those of us at Mudcat who are new, feel free to do a search on the subject of letting guests post, etc. There are many htreads, with all the sides of the issues clearly laid out. If you feel the need, go ahead and refresh one, but I'd suggest reading through them first. Like MMario, I don't bother with my cookie while at work, since I'm on line here only for a couple hours a day and usually only have time to post a couple times. I could cookie myself, but my boss is rightfully uptight about that kind of stuff on a system that hold a great deal of private info. I've always advocated for no or little deletions. If someone comes here and because of a few comments among 100,000s thinks that we're racist, that's there problem, not ours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: greg stephens Date: 03 Aug 04 - 02:44 PM I have noticed that personal attacks get deleted from time to time. I noticed Brucie in a recent post referred to an obscene personal attck made on him, and I had a similar experience from the same Mudcatter (who I wont bother to name). i tend to agree with this policy..leave in the general unpleasantness by all means; but personally directed obscenities or character-assassinations are best tactfully removed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:02 PM I believe greg stephens is refering to me in his 03 Aug 04 - 02:44 PM post. In the case of the comment I made to Mr. Stephens, I was the one who asked that it be deleted, and it was. My comment to greg was an uncalled for attack that deserved to be deleted. I'm not going to comment on my exchange with brucie, since I'm sure greg stephens and I would not see eye to eye on that one. I have noticed that the hundreds of personal attacks, obscene and otherwise, that have been made against me are very seldom deleted. I don't really have a problem with this. I just would like the same standards to be applied to everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:04 PM I will ever treasure your remark to me Carol: "Fuck you brucie." Not quite poetry but at least spoken from the heart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:06 PM And well deserved, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM Greg: When Carol does it, it's OK. When it is done to her it's not. That is life here. Get used to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:27 PM It appears that brucie missed this part of my last post: I have noticed that the hundreds of personal attacks, obscene and otherwise, that have been made against me are very seldom deleted. I don't really have a problem with this. I just would like the same standards to be applied to everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:30 PM One thing I do find intriguing, though is that among my almost ten thousand posts here in the Mudcat, one can count the number of times I've made personal attacks against other on the fingers of one hand (maybe even just two fingers), and yet it's these two that get harped on by people like brucie, and we are supposed to ignore the many times he has told people to eat shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM Didn't miss it at all, Carol. I don't want stuff deleted either. You telling me to fuck off is no big deal to me. I don't to you because you are a gal. Doesn't mean I didn't think it. Fortunately, Jack got his face in it and I was able to tell him. Life has a way of working out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:33 PM You have other ways of making life uncomfortable for women brucie. Not as overt as "fuck you", but just as nasty in their own way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:33 PM Carol, you are losing your perspective. I accepted your "Fuck you brucie". Figured it was the best you could come up with. Now, you won't let it go AGAIN. You are suffering from severe tunnel vision. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM Your attacks are always under the guise of equality. What you spout isn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM I didn't being it up brucie, greg did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:35 PM And back to you, Carol. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:35 PM And you kept it going. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM And why did you drag me into it this time. Still upset, Carol? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM We are enemies. Let's just leave it at that. However, you start personal attacks on me you will get personal attacks back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:37 PM I believe you have just made my point for me, brucie, in your 03 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM post. A personal attack by any other name... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: GUEST,TTCM Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:38 PM Never mind Carol, Brucie, she is always right and just because she doesn't know her arse from a pussy doesn't mean anything to her. She is still right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:38 PM Carol: nothing is about justice for you. It is about Carol winning, right or wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: GUEST,MMario Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:38 PM hey brucie! Figured it was the best you could come up with in the long run is as offensive if not more so then "f*ck you!" stop pushing her buttons. (which is what you *ARE* quite transparently doing) Carol - I don't think I need to tell you that you are feeding a troll - tho' at least this one has a face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: CarolC Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:39 PM You're quite right, MMario. I guess I should stop doing that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:39 PM You are about to be told that this is between her and me. Until her husband gets his face in it. She uses that ploy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:42 PM MMario: How does this remark from her make me a troll? I'm not going to comment on my exchange with brucie, since I'm sure greg stephens and I would not see eye to eye on that one. What the hell did I have to do with anything on this thread until Carol who can do no wrong decided to bring my name up? Huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: greg stephens Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM I tried to leave names out of this discussion. I've no idea what Brucie and CaolC were arguing about, and I'm not really interested. I was just trying to make a general point on personal invective(remove it, by all means) v. general offensiveness...leave it in for its educational value. I remeber when people have started accusing others of sexual indiscretions...obviously these should be removed. Incidentally it doesnt bother me vastly if people say "Fuck you Greg" or whatever. But that would obviously upset some people, so similar "ad hominem attacks" (now, who said that recently?) are certainly best removed for the general well-being of all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Jeri Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:54 PM Brucie, if it's between her and you, DON'T FUCKING POST IT IN A PUBLIC FORUM. What you may not think about (or care about) is that people who thought they liked you may read some of this shit and decide they'd go out of their way not to ever meet you or communicate with you. It's public. You know, at this point in time, I'd almost STRONGLY support requiring a cookie or some other form of identity confirmation, and a way to suspend people's ability to post or just kick their butts out. I'd almost advocate a moratorium on BS... PERIOD. I doubt there are many sites on the web devoted to music and/or general chat that tolerate the level of assholism that Mudcat does. At least, there sure seem to be a lot more people acting like assholes here than anywhere else I've been on the 'Net. Hard to believe...Mudcat, the Internet Capitol of Bad Behavior. Yeesh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:57 PM By all means. Tell her that, too. OK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 03:59 PM Also, I didn't bring my name up on this fuckin' thraed. Thanks for considering that in your friggin' rant to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 04:01 PM This is fucking horseshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 04:38 PM I'll give you two money, brucie and CarolC to BOTh shut the fuck up... Exchanges like the crap fest you two have turned this thread into are, by the Mudcat "Code" supposed to be taken to PMs... Please use them! See... this is what I mean by needing MORE moderation here... One of the so called Mods here should have already stepped in and stopped this bullcrap... "I doubt there are many sites on the web devoted to music and/or general chat that tolerate the level of assholism that Mudcat does." Never mind just music sites... I've never seen a bigger passle of assholism -anywhere- on the net... and I've been out here in cyberspace since before there WAS an internet... I can count on very few fingers the resoans (specific people) why I even bother staying... O.k... specific people and I like the IDEA of Mudcat.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: PoppaGator Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM Not knowing any of the history, I'd venture the opinion that both parties here are equally guilty of assholism. What might have become an interesting debate on censorship vs free speech, or whatever, has descended into idiocy. Too bad! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: GUEST,TTCM Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM So why do you stay here and whine, CH? Why do you not just do us all a favor and take your stinky assed dick fondling hide out of here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Peace Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:22 PM I don't mind my share of the blame at all, Clinton. I shall consider myself chastized. And suitably so. Have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:26 PM And on any other MB worth it's salt, for such an inflamitory comment, guestttcm would find their IP blocked forever... Why doesn't Mudcat have the stones to step up to the plate? -------------------------- Brucie... Have a good one yerself! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Amos Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:34 PM Children, go practice your instruments. Music calls. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Dead Horse Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:35 PM Are either CarolC or Brucie black? If they are, then this is racist and should be deleted. Or not. Mebbe that is racist, huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM Amos... I absolutely appreciate the spirit of your comment chum... But people here like to swing the "Mudcat is a GREAT community" banner around... when it seems like the majority of what's going on especially lately is on par with guestttcm... Shouldn't the 'community people be concerned? All groups have rules, and those who break them are shut out of the group... Why should Mudcat be any different? Do the people who run it WANT to attract mostly shit? No wonder it can't get any real funding... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: jacqui.c Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:49 PM So maybe we need a general policy if ignoring insulting posts and not reacting to them at all. Then maybe the flamers will look elsewhere. It's a tactic that usually works with small children anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:52 PM Geeze Loiuse, folks is sure testy these days... Hey, it's bad 'nuff folks makin' racist statements and then rather than just politely tell them they are off base (as I was the first to do in the Tyson thread) now ya' got everyone sounding like Martin Gibson... Come on folks. Martin has carved out his little niche so leave it be... This ain't no bass tournament 'er nothin' like when one guy get's into a hot spot a hunner 500 horsepower boat all crank up their engines and race to that spot where the fish is bitin'... Come on, a little civility, please. And plus, when folks lower themselves to such base language they lend some credence to the original racist comment... Just my opinion. I know, "Go f**k yerself, Bobert!" See what I mean? Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:53 PM And it doesn't work on the internet... Mudcat ALONE is proof of that... I do not understand the reluctance Mudcat has to basic internet procedure... It's not like Mudcat is -SO- different from any other Message Board out here that like to call itself a 'community'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM Sorry... that post was responding to JC... not to bobert... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: akenaton Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:19 PM No...Im for no censorship on Mudcat. In my opinion a censored forum insulates us from the "real " world, with all its bigotry and ignorance. Most of the people who post here are good and thoughtful,even those with different beliefs,but we need to be reminded that its still a jungle out there, and this place is a sunny clearing. I know its annoying when an interesting thread descends into infantile name calling,but we should remember that were all capable of thoughtlessly hurting others by the use of sarcasm...Clinton??. So leave everything in....Were well able to regulate ourselves....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Jeri Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM Maybe it's the heat...I dunno. Maybe it's the fact that I'm pretty good at not blowing my top when stuff bothers me, because I'll get over. Sometimes, that's not a good thing because people should know how their words affect people who may not even be involved in a particular thread but just read it. Boring anecdote: I once argued for a certain plan at work. I had a whole bunch of facts lined up to support me and un-support other ideas. When I got done, the boss asked "So are you for it or not?" Apparently, I didn't sound emotional enough when I talked about it. I'd spent my whole life thinking that emotion got in the way of logic. Sheesh! I honestly do NOT stay mad. Mad is mad, and I can be mad at somebody and still generally like them. That includes BOTH brucie and Carol C, whether they think I'm a jerk or not. I once had a big argument with Mick, and I consider him a good friend. I do, however, try to keep in mind that people are generally good, even when I'm mad, and it's possible to completely disagree with someone without trying to make them feel worthless. I'd tend to agree that 'TTCM' (who is most definitely not the same guy the current one stole it from) ought to be booted. There's no excuse for treating everyone at Mudcat like that. In any case, and I mean it, respect and PEACE! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:40 PM Are we? Show me where! And well, there's no such thing as No Censorship... If someone came here announcing the location of Max home, and a plan to hurt his family or some such, you can bet sure as HELL that thread would be deleted, and that IP would be BLOCKED faster than you can say knife! So your idea of NO Censorship is a falacy in the first place... Maybe what I'm asking is why stop so short... so short as to obviously be a detriment to the 'community'??? And how the HELL did -I- of all people end up being the advocate for a better Mudcat? I, who am often quoted as saying "It's only the feckin' internet" I gotta get more sleep after Monday Open Mics... Oh ya... by the way... I don't hurt people thoughtlessly... I put a LOT of thought and effort into the abuse and venom I have and do issue around here myself... If I've hurt you, it's because I wanted to hurt you! LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM Again with the cross-posting... lemme clear up the first little bit of that that last post... "Were well able to regulate ourselves." Are we? Show me where! and so forth... ------------ "I once had a big argument with Mick, and I consider him a good friend" I don't think anyone here is talking about not allowing arguments between friends... Not in the least... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: akenaton Date: 03 Aug 04 - 07:02 PM Clinton...By self regulation I meant that when someone posts something racist or overly personal, right away a dozen good catters and true jump on his head.....It keeps things balanced. And of course there are things that should never be posted on Internet forums...Like home addresses ,bank details ect. I wouldn't call that censorship in the conventional sense. But the last thing we want is for the people who run this forum to start dictating what is acceptable. And OK Clinton I accept you dont hurt people thoughtlessly, I guess it just looks that way....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Jeri Date: 03 Aug 04 - 07:03 PM I was trying to say it's possible to have some pretty heated arguments with people without hating them. Clinton, a couple of the problems with moderation are, who would you trust to do it, and how would you make them do it? We're either going to have to do some serious moderation or let this place get a lot worse (if it CAN get worse) until the (hopefully) normally good people get de-sensitized or at least decide not to respond to every bit of nastiness. At present, I'd be too embarrassed to recommend this place to anyone. I think when Max decided not to limit discussion to only music, he expected a bit more than the lot of us are capable of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Delete Racist Comments? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Aug 04 - 07:08 PM "At present, I'd be too embarrassed to recommend this place to anyone." In the last 6 months to a year, I've talk with more people about why they left, and met new people and waved them OFF the place than I think I've talked to favourabley about the place.... I do count this as a favourable discussion BTW... Because I do think there's room for VAST improvement here at Mudcat... to make a good thing better... Maybe some of the disgrunteld stars of the place might even come back again if that was the case... --------------------------------------------------------------------- "you dont hurt people thoughtlessly, I guess it just looks that way" Just cause it appears easy doesn't mean it's thoughtless...
-Joe Offer- |