BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures

Subject: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 02:55 PM

A 96% pass rate for A levels has cause the usual cry that these qualifications are now devalued. Not the most tactful reaction for those who had worked hard to get their qualifcations and even worse for the 4% who may have worked just as hard (if not harder) and did not pass.

The idea is that these examinations are too easy or not as difficult as they were in the past. It is almost as if failure was thought necessary. But whose failure would it be if the current pass rate were lower?

The time-honoured way of testing how effective teaching methods are - to hold examinations. If the pass rate is high - is this not good news? If the pass rate is high, does not mean that the teaching methods are effective?

Or rather if the pass rate is low, does this mean the teaching methods are ineffective? Do those who feel the current high pass rate should be lower, really asking for less effective teaching?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Peace
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:16 PM

The same bullshit occurs in Alberta. The Province holds Achievement Tests every year for kids in grades 3, 6 and 9. Usually, 80% is considered to be an honours mark. However, thanks to Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Bell's curve, a year back they made 82% the honours mark for that exam--after the exam scores had been tabulated--because too amny kids had achieved the honours score of 80%.

Gotta make the numbers look just so. Certainly wouldn't want too many children feeling good about themselves. Hey, your education dollar at work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:26 PM

If they were testing the kids' physical wellbeing and 96 per cent passed as healthy, do you think there'd be an outcry about how the standard of health must have actually declined?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:28 PM

Having seen the effort my daughters put into getting their A level results some years ago I find it a terrible insult to the children who do well in these exams. And probably to their teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

The real problem isn't the pass rate in exams, it's that the entire educational system is skewed & screwed. Unless it's changed in the 20 years since I left it (& the introduction of "league tables" to pressurise schools into worrying about their pass rates doesn't encourage me to believe so), of course.

And the problem is? We don't teach students either to think or to learn. The entire system was/is geared towards teaching them to pass exams. I never learnt to think in school, & I'd be hard pushed to tell you more than a tiny handful of 'facts' (I'm talking more than half a dozen, here) that formed part of my secondary education. They really equip you for life in the real world, don't they?!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:59 PM

The results are for England, Wales and Northen Ireland, not the UK. We have a different system in Scotland, musch closer to the Baccalaureate of France and is, in my opinion, much broader than A levels.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: shepherdlass
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM

Don't fret about it - like the whole "dumbing down" argument, it's all about the middle and upper classes holding onto a sense of intellectual superiority.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 07:01 PM

If you mean the "dumbing down" argument about TV, I don't think that would be correct, shepherdless. The English upper class in particular has always prided itself on the image of being rather thick - "intellectual superiority" is something one pays underlings to take care of.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: harvey andrews
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 07:42 PM

As an ex teacher, I don't think it's anything to do with class or even effort. It's to do with what is education for. Is it to give pupils a broad knowledge of where they come from, of where their society is and the reasons for it, of what is the most interesting in writing, music, art,science, etc? Is it about stretching their faculties and challenging them? Is it about preparing them for competing with life?
Or is it about giving them a sense of self worth, about being non-competitive, about smoothing out difference, about making sure everyone gets a reward?
Is it to get them through an exam or to make them curious and involved?
Is it about statistics and government targets or about getting the best out of each pupil?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 04:03 AM

What the press don't seem to have grasped is that with the league tables , parental choice etc, schools no longer enter students for the exam unless they think they have a fair chance of passing, so the results should be good.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: jonm
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 06:04 AM

From a current education perspective:

When I taught at A level, I found that in terms of syllabus content, depth, detail and level of difficulty of tasks and questions, I could teach the entire A level syllabus from my O level textbook from 15 years previously. The content and intellectual demand on the students has declined, partly due to changes in education (the GCSE system does not provide a good foundation for further study), changes in society (the internet has made information-gathering much easier) but mainly in response to the Government's continual demands for increases in "standards" without supporting funding.

If you assess students by examination and then publish the results for comparison, obviously staff will teach to the test and withdraw those who will not achieve. Unfortunate, but true.

I am now a lecturer; A level results used to be a way of distinguishing between candidates for higher education places, now too many of them have high grades for that to be effective. A levels used to be "graded on the curve" - the top 10% nationally got A grades, then 20% B's or whatever. You can argue for and against the fairness of that, but it gave a clear measure of the calibre of the student.

When I went to university, only Oxbridge demanded A grades for most subjects, the redbrick universities were looking for BBC - BCC grades. Now most of the "old" universities are asking AAA or AAB for many courses, just to reduce the number of applicants to manageable proportions, and they are still struggling to recruit strong candidates. Many more will be introducing entrance examinations in the near future.

Those are the "management" issues. From a personal standpoint, I pity the poor students who gain excellent grades and immediately have them devalued. They have been assessed under the current system and have achieved success by those criteria. They could not have done better. Similarly, I feel sorry for the poor teachers, constantly driven to raise standards without appropriate resources or time to do so, and yet when the evidence is presented that standards have indeed risen, their efforts, too, are disregarded.

My two penn'orth (from work, of course).      Jonm

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 06:50 AM

If you mean the "dumbing down" argument about TV, I don't think that would be correct, shepherdless. The English upper class in particular has always prided itself on the image of being rather thick - "intellectual superiority" is something one pays underlings to take care of.

That may be true but it has not prevented the upper (and those wealth)enough) from 'rigging' whatever system to ensure that 'they' get the best schooling and usually as a result the best job opportunities - no matter how 'dim' their children may be.

Our generals, top Civil Servants, etc are evidence that things do not change much....And Boris Johnson MP- My dog is brighter than him and would probably gotten better results at Eton - had I been able to afford to send him there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:30 AM

I wrote the following some time ago - it is not one of my better efforts but it was/is heartfelt and not much has changed. Including my need to 'rant', which I had thought that writing the song would have cured.

Back to Basics

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Sooz
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:44 AM

Well explained jonm.
During the four years I was a student, A level Chemistry which I taught had become more like the O level I took. There has been another 30 years change since then!
In 1970, universities offered me 3 C's to read medicine although I didn't take them up. (This was in the days of equal opportunities when they needed to attract women!)
My grades weren't actually much better than that, so does that make me less intelligent than one of this years students with straight A's?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:36 AM

Whether you complain or not about the test depends upon what you want: If you want to make sure that all those who pass have at least a minimum (which can be quite a lot, actually) knowledge, then there is no reason to complain about a high percentage passing a test.

If you want to differentiate between those passing then the state of affairs described above is deplorable.

If, as a test constructor, you go for the first aim, the best you can do is to chose items anybody having studied a subject can be safely expected to be able to respond to. A question that gets 100% correct responses doesn't bother you at all for it only shows that the preparation has been perfect.

If you want to differentiate between those taking the test any item with 100% correct responses would be as bad as an item with 0% correct responses. It would only show that you have failed as a test constructor. Items with a medium number of correct responses would be required (and some more demands which are more technical).

Wolfgang

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM

If you assess students by examination and then publish the results for comparison, obviously staff will teach to the test and withdraw those who will not achieve. Unfortunate, but true.

A very good point.

These current statistics are interesting but: They are a bit like that comment about mini-skirts. What they reveal is interesting - what they conceal is vital.

For example, what is the percentage of those passing at this level - out of all those who enter ours or any other education systems?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 05:32 PM

I have taught senior-level English in Alberta for fifteen years. Any teacher who says he or she does NOT teach to the test is being less than candid. In fact, I no longer worry about 'developing a love of literature' in my Grade 12 students. I use grades 8-11 for that. I have never been overly concerned how my Grade 9 students do on the Provincial Achievement Test because it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. However, the results of their Grade 12 English exams do determine whether or not they will be allowed to attend various programmes of study in various post-secondary institutions.

What has happened in education in Canada, US, England/Wales and NZ is a crime. The business model has been employed and as an observant poster above noticed, schools have been teaching what to think, not how to think. When funding gets cut for one reason or another, schools tend to look at eliminating arts as a cost-saving measure. That should let you know where things are at to do with how education is being shaped. It scares me; maybe it's time it scared more people.

If you want to change anything, don't bother writing or complaining to governments. They really just worry about how they look and how they can massage the numbers. If you want to change anyting, get elected to a schoolboard. Don't bitch at the government. Become the government. Future generations will thank you for it.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:46 PM

Similarly, I feel sorry for the poor teachers, constantly driven to raise standards without appropriate resources or time to do so, and yet when the evidence is presented that standards have indeed risen, their efforts, too, are disregarded.

They have my sympathy also but going back the the point you made about them only putting forward those who they felt would pass - they were wrong about the 4%, were they not? If no other changes are imposed - will they learn from this and ensure that it be 100% that pass next year?

I do have sympathy also with those who do pass and whose efforts are questioned and who will line up for jobs or university, along with so many others with exactly the same (worthless?) qualifications. However, mainly I feel for the rest.

If I am honest, the main reason, all those many years ago that I not choose to take any of these tests to enble me to have general level qualifications, was mainly that I was lazy. There were other reasons but what does laziness mean? That you do not feel what is on offer is worth the required effort? Well I didn't think it was then and I don't now. I thought it was a cheap trick to play on young minds, and I still do.

Not that I do not value education and knowledge and those who are willing to impart this. Nor the (later) teaching and training of specialist vocational skills and qualifications. It was simply that the whole point of the last few years at school were devoted to trying to ensure that pupils passed these general levels. Or of contibuting to the general weeding out that, although incredible to me, seems to be such a vital part of what is now called education and which starts in our schools as early as possible.

It really is not all that difficult, (for most of us) with a little application, to pass these things, when it is the only game in town. For you are well-prepared and know exactly what to expect. I felt totally let down after my primary education had finished - for no one (well nearly no one) tried to teach me anything. The few fine souls that did try - were doing this in spite of the system, not because of it.

Over the years, it has been generally accepted by most parent, pupils and schools - that this IS the only game in town. These latest results just show that everyone now knows how to play it well. Let us wait and see the rules change, yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: s6k
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:51 PM

i got a C in film stuides, and a U in philosophy.. hooray!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:31 PM

No one has ever shown a corelation between how well kids do in high school and how well they do in post-secondary schools.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Exam results - not enough failures
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM

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