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BS: We've lost a good one
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Subject: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:22 PM I just received a PM from one of Mudcat's finest last evening. the person is leaving, indefinately. They did not want to make a public exit, which I can say only adds to the sense of class this person has always shown. Sick of all the rudeness, scatological language, hijacking of intelligent threads by people who are the cyber- equivalent of hecklers. It is a damn shame we are seeing the loss of fine people but managing to humor the cretins who only want to be rude, offensive,hurtful and nasty. What would make anyone want to be intentionally offensive? What can they gain by making people not like them? Anyway, just wanted you to know. We have lost a great, and what we have to show for it makes me sick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: mg Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:35 PM I am sorry he or she is leaving or has left. Something that really bothers me is the personal sexual references that are made about specific people and/or their preferences, anatomy etc. That is just not right. For example, asking whether the newly married couple is "hetero". It is nobody's business but their's what anyone is....or slams about people living in trailer parks, uncalled for personal stuff. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: DMcG Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM A friend of mine posted a question as guest recently and got a polite, helpful reply. I emailed them with this: ===== I see you've been posting at Mudcat! What happens as a rule is that you get 90% of sensible answers, 9% completely irrelevant and 1% abuse. Just be prepared for it if it turns up and its best totally ignored. ===== I regret feeling that it is necessary to warn them about written abuse but it seems to be in line with what whoever-has-left has experienced. Having said that, the only additional censorship I want at this site is self-censorship. Occasionally, I need more of it myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Clinton Hammond Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:42 PM "It is a damn shame we are seeing the loss of fine people but managing to humor the cretins who only want to be rude, offensive,hurtful and nasty" Petition the "Powers" here for change then... See how far THAT gets ya... Ya got MY vote JT.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Georgiansilver Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM jimmyt..as you know, due to lack of mudcat knowledge, I jumped in at the deep end and you were one of those who came some way towards rescuing me. There are those who enjoy the "school bully" syndrome and will probably do it wherever they are in life..but I believe some on here just do it for effect or to see what reaction they can get. Unfortunately people do become damaged...and although it may be argued that they should avoid places like mudcat on the grounds that "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"...I believe..as the Respect and Civility thread suggested, that each of us should afford respect and civility to all others......question or refute opinions by all means but NOT the people. It will obviously not happen but we can live in hope. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:50 PM Treehouse? Whoever (s)he is, I hope (s)he comes back after a break for we need such people, but I hope even more that Mudcat changes in a way that (s)he'll like to come back. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM Mary Garvey, cool we have the same initials!! BTW, it does make a difference to some if a married couple are hetero or not. Especially if a law is broken, or if they think something otherwise than what you think. It's not wrong, just different than what you think. So this person left. Oh, well. Life goes on, doesn't it? So does Mudcat. If one gets "damaged" by what goes on here, they really should seek some serious professional advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:56 PM It's a shame - but the people who go in for that stuff aren't going to be shamed out of it. You can just hope they'll get bored and move on, or grow out of it (which doesn't imply that it's particularly young people who go in for it, because in some of the worst cases the indications are that the people concerned are by no means young). Sadly enough, even if they do move on, or rethink the way they treat the Mudcat, there'll probably always be similar types replacing them. But I don't think that trying to solve this by much stricter moderating would be worth it, because of the other ways it woudl impact on teh way the Mudcat community works. It's something those of us who hate it, the very large majority, are going to have to live with - and we need to avoid contributing to it by the way we respond and post. (Avoiding using words like "cretin", for example, I'd suggest. I'm sure it wasn't intended as "intentionally offensive", but offensive it certainly is for many people, including me.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:07 PM no it is not treehouse |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM Excuse me if I was offensive with the cretin reference, Mr Mc Grath. I am angry. If this was hurtful I apologise. See how easy it is? You say something is offensive, I apoogise I don't do it again if I realise it is offensive. That seems the civilised thing to do to me. Your defensive of The freedom to be offensive is a paradox to me, however. Just where does this stop? What is appears is that the bullys are protected at the expense of all the others..if bully is offensive,I hardly know how to discribe them otherwise. I a real three dimensional world, these people can be dealth with" If a heckler continues harrasment in a club, someone ultimately takes the initiative to stop this one person from ruining the evening for all the others. If you are at a party or another social situation, you cna politely walk away from someone who is being rude, loud or telling offensive jokes. SOciety has ways of dealing with these people in the real world. In here, how can it be accomplished? I am asking a real question. One person has the ability of wrecking the entire website if he or she wants to, and I really don't see how it can be solved. But I will say one thing, if it doesn't get solved soon, there will be a steady exit of folks who don't need to be exposed to the gutter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM There are a couple of suspects, based upon which members have been most vocal of late. Jerry Rasmussen. Art. Bobert is still here today, so he hasn't thrown in the towel. Yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM Without knowing who it is, and knowing what offends them, how do you think people will change their behavior? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:46 PM It's ONLY a web site get a grip on reality, if you dont like dont read or post, seems simple to me or have I missed something |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:48 PM I hope it isn't Don Firth. That man was singled out by your fantastic member MG for some real sick insults. It must warm the cockles of his heart to have had to sit back and watch some of his fellow members humour MG. But as Joe Offer pointed out so long as the insults are from a named member, then they stand undeleted. Why don't you ask for your rules to be changed. Or else prop open the exit door. Again, I hope it wasn't Don.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM I bet it's jOhn from hull, cos he gets upset real easy |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,MMario Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM so long as the insults are from a named member, then they stand undeleted not necessarily so... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: John MacKenzie Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:54 PM It only encourages the troublemakers if they know who they've upset, and how they've done it. Undoubtedly if they're that dumb it will happen again. I've been tempted to pack it in myself [don't all cheer at once]. I know I'm guilty of making flippant remarks at inopportune moments, but I would never be so crass as to question a persons sexual proclivities, or make personal remarks about their physical appearance.I may question some peoples sanity though! Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,jimmyj Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:59 PM Hey jimmyt--with a posting history like this I wouldn't get too holier-than-thou. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,jacqui.c Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:59 PM It's a shame to lose a good Mudcatter to this sort of thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:24 PM It's not that I'm defending "the freedom to be offensive". I think that, when people post in ways that are intended to hurt other people, and to damage the way we can get along here together and learn from each other, and enjoy each others company, they are abusing their freedom, and attacking the freedom of the rest of us. But there's a real limit to what can be done to stop that kind of thing, here as in the big world. Go down that road, and the qualities that make the Mudcat worthwhile could be irreparably damaged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Jeri Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:27 PM Art, Jerry and Don seem to be pretty good at not letting the bad here ruin the good for them, and they've already hung in through a lot. There have been times when I've been very frustrated at, not at the VERY few instigators of bad behavior, but at all the attention they get because of it and the way people you thought were nice respond in kind. Let's have one guy insult somebody or something, and just watch the whole thread go to hell while everybody who takes exception to it just HAS to post a reply, sometimes being every bit as nasty as the instigator. People bent on defending, and 'standing up' to nastiness are just the flip side of the same coin. There are times when we need to 'say something', but on an internet forum, it's often just noise...LOUD noise. Clinton, I don't know why you think moderation would be effective. Who do you think will do it? Speaking only for myself, they don't pay me enough to read every thread, personally decide what is and isn't crap, and edit out, even if Max were to accept the idea. What it's coming down to is either letting everything go on, however it goes on, or going 'membership only', so there's a way to bounce folks temporarily or permanently, when they refuse to play nice. People may one day think of the 'greater good' before they hit the send button, but I don't think we, as a whole, are capable of that. That may eventually force exclusion of non-members, whether they're new folks trying us out, regulars who just don't want cookies, people using silly names in fun, dedicated trolls or worse, members who want to be covertly snotty. The bottom line. There is good and bad here. If people decide the bad they see is enough to limit the possibility they'll ever see the good, it's their choice. I can't fault anyone who simply makes a decision about what they want, or don't want to do with their time. But the ones who win are the ones who hang in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: open mike Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:37 PM well, for me, so far, the positive outweighs the negative. Sorry to find that someone found that not to be the case. I hope they will continue to keep in touch with the good people who have become friends, as that is one of the most important parts of this cafe', the good people who are here, who by far are the majority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM Guests, so many guests posting in a row, so afraid to use their normal identities. The biggest cowards on this forum. The absolute biggest phonies on the whole Internet. Whoever quit is reading the wrong threads. I don't look at every thread. Do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:55 PM It occurs to me that a technical thing that could possibly improve things a bit would be if we always had to push the preview button. Just possibly, seeing what we've just written up there in a more formal typeface might make us think again, sometimes, when we've written something we'll later wish we hadn't. I know I spot typing errors and ambiguities I'd missed that way. It wouldn't have a dramatic effect, and it wouldn't do a thing to stop the real nasties, but it might head off some of the angry responses that spiral on out of control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: M.Ted Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:04 PM jimmyj-- Followed your link, and found this terribly incriminating post from Jimmyt-- >WHat a generally nice bunch of folks who congregate here! I have never enjoyed a place more. >Musicians are among the finest folks on earth. I couldn't hope to hang out with a better bunch. >Thanks for being here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:04 PM Sex is better when it is spontaneou. Why shouldn't posting on a forum? Get it right the first time and tell us how you really feel. don't hold back. To hold back would only promote second guessing and you know what is said about second guessing: You probably had it right the first time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:10 PM MTed, I do generally think it is a nice bunch of folks and I generally enjoy thier posts and thoughts. I do also think it is a shame that a few can ruin it for the masses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,SueB Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:11 PM Something that drives me absolutely crazy is people who are privy to information, and act about it in a way that is reminiscent of a childhood taunt - "I know something you don't know" done in a singsong voice. If I knew who were we talking about here, I might be really bummed - but I don't know. All I'm feeling at this point is slightly irritated by what, to me, is an obnoxious post - the one that starts this thread. Other people may not have found it obnoxious at all, but we are all different. Of course it's a shame to lose a member of the Mudcat community, but there's a limit to how responsible you can ask me to feel for the decision of someone (whose identity I am not allowed to know) to take a break from the Mudcat Cafe. Hopefully he'll miss it and come back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:19 PM As someone who has left a number of times, sometimes loudly, I think I have a different perspective about this. And that is, it would be a real good thing to leave this whole subject alone for now-- discussing it only becomes part of the problem, however well-intentioned one may be about discussing it. Let the dust settle. Sometimes people just need time to process and rethink. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:19 PM Guest, Sue B, you hit it right on the head. jimmyt's type of post is what irritates me also and the private little cliques are what is most wrong with this place and quite possibly promote some of the things that most annoy these self-appointed insiders. you bet we are all different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: M.Ted Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM If Jimmyt's post irritates you Martin, I doubt that there is much that doesn't irritate you--I will grant that you are being unusually civil in this thread, though-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: PoppaGator Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:37 PM I don't understand some of the nasty things that get posted, but on the other hand, neither do I understand why anyone would take them seriously and get so bent out of shape about it. Doesn't it make more sense to avoid or ignore the small volume of annoying stuff than to stomp off in a huff? Those who are especially thin-skinned should probably stick to the music topics "above the line" and avoid the gossip down here, correctly classified as "BS." |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM "Clique" meaning that some people have got to know and like each each other over the Mudcat? That's pretty inevitable, unless they were to set out to alienate everybody with whom they get into conversation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Rasener Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:48 PM Basically, if somebody insults or hounds a member of any forum, they are flaming. If somebody is flaming that is against the etiquette of forums. It is time the moderators started doing their job and warning and indeed banning these people. As far as guests are concerned then there is a very simple way to deal with them, and this requires strong moderating. Allow guests to post in a guest section, which is dealt with by the moderators. If the post is offensive, it gets deleted immediately. Allow guests to read threads but not post unless it is in the guest section. As far as mudcatters go, if they can't be civil, then ban them from the forum. How long are you going to let this go on moderators? If somebody posts a serious thread, one has to accept that other memebers may not agree with them. Thnat is fine, but if memebers start to flame , that is not acceptable. There is one hell of difference if people post in supposed serious threads with good humoured banter, as long as it doesn't get flamed. There should be a button to click on to warn the moderators if a thread appears to be getting offensive/ abusive / or out of hand. The moderators should lock the thread until the issues have been sorted out. Above all if a memeber thinks that soembody is flaming them, then they should Pm the person stating their concerns. If that doesn't sort it ( in most cases with sensible memebers it should), then it should be reported to the moderators. Moderators it is time to roll your sleeves up and get tough before things get totally out of hand. Its in your hands and shoudn't be shirked. I am sure most decent members will agree with me and look to your controlling this situation moderators. Nobody else can do it. There that is my ten penneth, and if somebody doesn't like what I have said then tough.It needs to get sorted now, before you lose all the decent members. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:04 PM No MG we are not phonies. We are guests. You on the other hand are not MG. What does that make you, apart from a someone with a very scarred childhood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Clinton Hammond Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:18 PM Very well said, The Villan! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: pdq Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM From Villan to Hero in one post! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Rasener Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:26 PM LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:43 PM Amen to what the resident Villan and Hero said. Moderation! Here! Here! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: dwditty Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:52 PM Just for the record....I am still here....lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: John MacKenzie Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM So what do you do about posts like this? To-day |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM Sounds like good advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Justa Picker Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:59 PM With all the good ones "we've" lost over the years, one could create a really killer folk forum from that group. Mudcat is to folk these days, what draught is to beer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM I am sorry to seem like a schoolyard taunt,I was trying to respect Jerry Rasmussen's privacy. You bet I am pissed off that anything would happen to run off such a sincere, good guy. There. I said it. If this post somehow offends someone, so be it. I am only trying to stick up for the good guys here. If this is wrong, Too bad. I have had just about enough of the mean spirited snivelling intentional hurtful stuff myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Rasener Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM JGM My answer to that is the moderators are the people to look at thread/posts that appear to flame/insult or offend individual mudcatters and take strong action. Our job as mudcat members is to bring such matters to the moderators attention and not get involved with responding back to such offenders. If you do, you only make matters worse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: katlaughing Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM Thanks, jimmyt. We've lost a lot of good people over the years because of this kind of crap. We've had lots of debates on whether to go to membership only. So far, that is something Max wants to avoid. we could always leave the Forum the way it is and have a "members only" section. I hope Jerry will reconsider. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:34 PM Are you completely delusional? Guests are not your current problem. Members are. Did Jerry say who offended him? I bet he had a couple of names to mind. And neither was " GUEST." |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM you are correct guest |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM Thank you jimmyt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Rasener Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:44 PM Why are you responding as GUEST Guest. Have you not got a name. If you are a member then say who you are. If not join. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM Who the f..k are you? If you don't like the rules of your club then leave it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM With all due respect, this apparently stems from private communication jimmyt has shared with us publicly in a thread, first with veiled references and now naming Jerry. Now that he has named Jerry, what may have simply been a momentary expression of frustration has become much more. If Jerry had wanted to publicize that he was leaving, he'd have done that. This is all escalating into quite the firestorm (here and in other threads). Trust me, that ain't the way to lure anyone back. Just CHILL, everyone, and let the dust settle! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Raedwulf Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:04 PM jimmy - sorry, my friend, but I have not seen that Jerry gave you permission to name him. Frustration (which I can understand) has led you to give him away. I can understand this, but you are in the wrong. You take his dignity away (&, I might add, I do not agree that he should walk quietly away - he should fight for his board!). Villan - you are, largely, in the wrong. Members on this board may slang each other freely. Moderation is a tedious, subjective, & onerous task (& I speak as one that has done this task impartially). "Strong" moderation would cripple, if not destroy, Mudcat (again, I speak as one in favour of restricting Guest privileges). What you demand is both impractical & against the Mudcat philosophy. Who watches the watchmen? Even now, there are those (members!) that bitch against the oppresive & over regulated MC. What price a police force! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM Mudcat is to folk these days, what draught is to beer. Good draught beer is the best beer. If Jerry's gone that's a real shame. It's only a small handful of people who screw up this place, but that's all it takes. But if only the rest of us could learn not to get sucked into the name calling and that it'd die away. Any time anybody insults you or anyone else here (I don't mean the play insults that are part of friendship, the real ones are unmistakable, and I don't mean expressions of disagreement, however firm, ), I suggest the thing to do is cut them out completely from your attention - just don't look at their posts in future, don't reply to them, don't acknowledge their existence. Of course they can and do dodge that, by signing in with their cookies removed, but if it could become a custom of the Cat to boycott those kinds of posts, maybe they'd die off through natural selection. Calling for heavier policing from on high is, I think, a mistake. Indeed, if it came to that, we'd in many ways have lost the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:19 PM Villan, too bad, but yours is a losing arguement. I even say, too bad about Jerry. He wasn't a bad guy, even though some of his posts made me think of a guy frolicking in a meadow with a bunch of butterflies around him. He will probably come back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Cluin Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:40 PM Yes, Jerry is a good one. I'm sorry he's decided to go; he had a lot to contribute. But if the place was getting to him that much, I'm glad he decided to avoid the irritation. Maybe he'll return in which case I hope he enjoys the break. If not, then I'm the richer for his posts here. At the same time, if he didn't want to announce his leaving, why did you do it, jimmyt? Seems like you've crossed a line here. I sure wouldn't trust you with a secret. Not that I would anybody on the Internet, bosom cyberpal or no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,The Newt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:43 PM Burn jimmyt! Burn jimmyt! Burn! Burn him! Burn him! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:45 PM Well, can't say as I ever had the pleasure, but I always wanted to tell him I was never impressed by his political machinations...... oh, wait...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Rasener Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:48 PM Seems so, but never mind, I tried. I don't intend to get caught up in flaming etc. Made my point, if nobody seems to agree, then fine. That is democracy. I will go back to sleep :-) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:50 PM I always kind of dig the backfiring irony to a poster when he starts a thread like this and BOOM! it just goes all to hell on him. Anyone know what's for dinner tonight? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,The Newt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:52 PM I wish I could lay a couple of good deadly episodes of bleeding on mine enemies. I'd start with the Sons of Norway, I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: John MacKenzie Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM quis custodiat ipsos custodes Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM Jerry is a good one. Yes indeed. I hope he comes back. And I dearly hope that the people who have been messing upo this place so he felt it didn't feel worth staying will evaporate. Here's a song I wrote some time back thanking Jerry for his songs, which can have a magucal effect sometimes. I've posted it before, but I feel like posting it again now, to say thank you again to him: Now the day had been long and the day had been rough And one way and another we'd all had enough. When Kitty came home in a terrible mood We looked at each other, and we knew what to do. In a time like today there is just one escape - So we dug out the record we'd made from that tape. And we put on the record, and it started to play. And a change in the music brought a change in the day. For when Jerry was singing it happened once more, And soon Kitty was dancing around on the floor. And as Jerry was singing a handful of songs, Kitty was singing along. Will you sing me a song? Will you play me a tune? Will you tell me th'old tale of the Man in the Moon? Will you give me a reason, so I can pretend It'll all be all right in the end? Yes I'll sing you a song. And I'll play you a tune. And I'll tell you th'old tale of the Man in the Moon. And I'll give you a reason to make and to mend - It'll all be all right in the end. And when Jerry is singing it happens once more, And soon Kitty is dancing around on the floor. And as Jerry is singing a handful of songs, Kitty is singing along. Now I made up this song 'cos I wanted to say "Thank you, my friend" and this seemed the best way. With your tunes and your songs and your banjo and all It seems like you're standing and playing in the hall. And though we've never met, and most like never will, I count you a friend, lives just over the hill. Though the hill is an ocean, and a long ways to climb Still the music can make it, and it works every time. For when Jerry is singing it happens once more, And soon Kitty is dancing around on the floor. And as Jerry is singing a handful of songs, Kitty is singing along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:04 PM It will never be a hit. But for some reason, I can kind of picture Madonna singing it while grabbing her crotch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: pdq Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:09 PM Jerry Rasmussen resigning from Mudcat? Well, we all have something to say about that. We refuse to accept your resignation. Period. End of problem! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Rasener Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:11 PM The mind boggles MG :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Rapparee Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:12 PM A member thought I'd insulted him. He pm'ed me. I responded -- turned out we had been (roughly) in the same place at the same time, and no insult was intended (anything but!). So everything's cool. Communication is the answer for those courageous enough to join. Others, with few exceptions, I think are cowardly sell-outs who are stooging for Big Brother. I saw it in the Sixties, and it's back today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM Let me say that Jerry did NOT tell me that he did not want this to be known. He just didn't want to make one of those "I am leaving" posts that have happened. He is too classy for that. I have Emailed him and told him of my actions and apologised to him, which, as a friend, I am sure Jerry will accept. I did this as soon as I had posted I was goaded to bring forth the name. I did. I acted in an emotional manner because of what I perceive as a darn shame that is happening on an otherwise wonderful forum. I wish I had never brought it up but I did. I still feel the same about what a shame it is that it happened. For those of you who feel I did the wrong thing, for those who feel I have violated a trust, for those of you who can conceivably find any more fault with me about this, I am sorry you feel that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: DougR Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:04 PM As someone else said, people come and people go. When it stops being fun, it IS time leave probably. One has to have a pretty thick skin sometime here on the Mudcat, but that's just the way it is. Perhaps whoever it was, after some time will come back. I just hope it wasn't Bobert. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Peace Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:04 PM I don't think you did the wrong thing, jimmyt. Jerry is an institution of 'goodness' on the 'cat. I love that man. He talks the talk and he walks the walk. I wish I had 10% of his peacefulness and heart. Helluva man. When I look back at the threads he has started, he has always been positive, making it easy for people like me to find some good about themselves, despite ourselves. There are few people here whose resignation would slam me more. Greedy on my part, because he means very much to me. He was encouraging to me when I was in an ocean of despair. Wrote me for days and days, worrying whether I was comin' around or going further downhill--and trust me when I say that I didn't have all that much further to go. It's possible I owe him my life--I am not aware if he knows that--but it's true. Least I can do is take the walk with you buddy. I owe you too much to wave goodbye from the corner. Really I do. There are a few people I trade messages with, so I'll keep the cookie. They have become friends, too. And a certain person I hope will one day write back to me--even if only to give me the shit so richly deserve. Bruce Murdoch |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:02 PM "Well, we all have something to say about that." Yes, and I'm sure we all will still be thrashing through the same sentiments another 350 posts from now, just because we can. It'll be riveting. jimmyt caved awfully quickly to the pressure to out our victim, didn't he? Remind me never to trust him with the family secrets! Just joshin' ya there jimmyt. But really, you might want to do some back strengthening exercises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Leadfingers Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:13 PM If a member posts something that you find upsetting or distasteful or whatever , posting something in the forum does no good at all . All it does , it seems , is set up something for some one else to snipe at . If someone posts something that upsets me , I either totally ignore it , as being not worthy of comment , or send a PM to the poster asking for clarification or justification. This method of response does NOT clutter the forum with unneccessary posts and means that the 'offender' is not publicly reprimanded . Of course , anonymous Guest posts can not be replied to in this way . JUST IGNORE THEM ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Cluin Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:27 PM "Lest anyone ever confuse what Mudcat is, it's a collection of personal tastes posing as absolutes." -Jerry Rasmussen Amen. And sorry, jimmyt. Leapt to a conclusion I regret above. You followed your heart in starting this thread; I should have seen that. We can hope it does some good and it just may. For my part, I'm steering away from the crap more around here now. It's the music stuff I came here for and that's what I'll come here for again. Siochain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Sorcha Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM Martin, RE: "BS: We've lost a good one From: Martin Gibson - PM Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:04 PM "It will never be a hit. But for some reason, I can kind of picture Madonna singing it while grabbing her crotch." This is the kind of garbage that has made you unpopular and unwelcome here....and you seem to manage to do it in a lot of threads....I really need to ask why? I use the Handle of Sorcha, and prefer it because it is the name I gave myself....but, I am Mary Leigh Green Wise of Torrington, Wyoming, US....what can you say for yourself? I plan to e mail Jerry and express my sympathy....I will miss him a lot. I wouldn't miss you at all. Sorry, I have tried to make it a Personal Policy never to post to this kind of thread or the political ones either, but Jerry is important to me. Some so called Martin Gibson is not..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:10 PM It's been obvious for the past several months, that Martin Gibson is the #1 trouble maker around here. Everyone should boycott and ignore his posts completely. What pleasant or positive contribution has this asshole made? All he does is stir up trouble and others feel compelled to react to it. He is a real sicko and every post of his proves it. IGNORE the assholes comepletely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,lydia Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:41 PM 'It's been obvious for the past several months, that Martin Gibson is the #1 trouble maker around here.' No, no. The #1 trouble maker around here is GUEST. Get people angry with MG and everyone ignores GUEST. Clever but no prize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:10 PM Thanks, Guest Lydia. As for Sorcha, she sent me a nasty PM that she thinks upset me. It didn't and I answered her in what I thought was a very civil matter. What she doesn't realize is how many positive PMs I do get and reply to behind the scenes and her PM was like an old broad waving her finger at me. Yawn. She even said she is married to a some kind of cop and detective and that she would get him after me and that she is such a great person because of this and that. Wow, did she seem uptight and pre-occupied with her status. I am sure that she is probably OK as a person, but that she might be somewhat menopausel(sp) and all that. So, I asked her kindly to not send me anymore crap like that and I hope she will go on her merry way, looking for culture and a life in Wyoming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:34 PM If, indeed, it is Jerry---then it is the last straw---and I am gone too. I don't need this. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Cruiser Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:03 AM Any member who publicly announces or privately relates that he is leaving Mudcat for such reasons is being pretentious. I would prefer required membership and deletion of some threads, but the simplest solution is just not reading what you don't like (said many times before by many posters). Stay "above the line" in the music section and don't venture "down here" below if you are faint-of-heart. Brucie, are you leaving again?! Don't!! You know you will be missed, notwithstanding the pretentiousness. Jimmyt, you ARE one of the good guys here. Cruiser |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Cruiser Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:39 AM Mr. Art Thieme, Surely you aren't going to leave the music section also? Say it ain't so! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Sorcha Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:59 AM Well, I didn't think it was 'nasty', just honest. And, I basically just told him not to bother stalking me....because I have ways of finding out....so, I'm out of this thread....forever. I am now out of any thread that Martin Gibson posts to....See ya down the road. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Georgiansilver Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:43 AM jimmyt...You started this thread "in good faith". You were put under the usual heavy pressure. You did what you thought best at the time which at the end of the day is all any of us can do. Ignore the negative remarks....people are attacked here for anything "someone else" (very often a Guest) seems to want to exploit as what they think is weakness in another. You have not been weak. Keep on keeping on my friend. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:52 AM If you look at any very old thread you can see we've lost a lot of valuable 'catters over the years. The flamers and bullies don't seem to respond to polite (or impolite) requests. Me, I'm a) thickskinned so don't care what people say or think of me b) have got better things to do with my time than argue with or flame people who don't share my opinions and c)I've stopped reading threads and posts that annoy me and waste my time. Rearrange these words into a well known saying LIFE A GET RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:48 AM The #1 trouble maker around here is GUEST. Not so, because GUEST (nameless) isn't a person, it's a label used by a load of people who for a number of reasons choose to cloak themselves. Some are no doubt members, some are regular hangers-on around here, including at least one who and some are occasional visitors. I don't like the practice, can't see any good reason for it, and I'd like to see a requirement that anyone posting as GUEST has to put in some kind of name, however temporary. That wouldn't involve any kind of censorship and could save a lot of confusion. Maybe it'll happen some time, bit there's no point in banging on about it. However it's a mistake to create a fantasy about GUEST (nameless) being some kind of hovering consistent presence. The namelessness is irritating sometimes, but it's the abuse and the knee jerk response to it that's the problem, whoever is responsible for it from time to time. .................. "I am now out of any thread that *** posts to..." I think that's the wrong way to deal with that kind of situation, Sorcha. It'd just be inviting whoever it was you were trying to avoid to chase you round Mudcat. Much better systematically to skip any posts under the name involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:00 AM Living in cloud-cuckoo land will not help. The reality is that this (sadly) is a moderated forum. Many posters have editing imposed upon them by just posting in an entire thread that is deleted or closed, where vounteers can't be bothered to take the time or make the effort just to edit the few offending ones. The bullets are being fired by our volunteers, but the casualties and the only ones that are being affected by this single measure, are just the ones standing too close or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Posters like the one's we have lost (not forever I trust) are encouraged by this so-called moderation to think that the forum can be maintained or improved by this single reactive measure. It is pretty clear to anyone that this moderation has had no effect at all upon the intentionally unpleasant postings that has caused many posters to leave and continues to inhibit many others. And what is the reaction to these recent losses? Calls for yet more judgement and more measures to be imposed! Many may agree that the current editing measures have not been very effective in addressing the problem it was designed for but I would go even futher. The current moderation actually encourages the unpleasantness that so many object to. There are many reasons for this, the first is that it is seen as a challenge - a red rag to many bulls. But the example given by our (mostly well-intentioned) volunteers, is one of expessing a judgement of the worth of invited contributions. This example is followed and everyone seems to think they are entitled to judge everyone else's postings and request that editing action be imposed upon the postings of other's in order to shape the forum. Some volunteers set the example of bringing the thread to the top by insulting right back and being just as offensive as the posting they are reacting to. How can volunteers have any credibility for combatting personal attacks - when they think their volunteer status entitles them to make personal attacks or to react in kind, if they feel they are under attack. No one forces these volunteers to undertake this editing and if they do not like receiving criticism (founded or unfounded) - they are not the right people for the 'role', or the role needs to be redefined. The starting point is that no one has any control over the postings of others and chasing about trying to get rid of those that are thought to be damaging - only draws more attention to them, which is the entire reason why these posts are made in the first place. Meanwhile back on the music threads, mostly life goes on and the vast majority of people are unaware of the unpleasantness going on and the hysterical reaction to it, mostly in the BS forum. Which is exactly where it should be as this now mainly acts as a safety valve. So if folk are offended by the BS they find on the BS forum - who have they got to blame? I have been posting here for a long time (after a short departure and return) and I have the only EDIT button I need. I like the forum as it it, reflecting all the contributors. I may not like many of these but no one is forcing me or anyone else to even open any thread - are they? Perhaps our recent departures will continue to post as an unamed guests? I hope by self-moderation and a by a better example being set by all of us and especially our volunteers - that our forum will be a place that these fine folk will feel they would like to contribute to again..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: fat B****rd Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:40 AM I'm with the Skiffler. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:09 AM We'll have to stop meeting like this, Charlie! RtS (people are starting to talk..) |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: bbc Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:09 AM Cruiser, Many Mudcat members have, at some time, thought something happened on Mudcat that, for us, was the last straw & have left or intended to leave. Many have also realized that, in addition to crap & drivel, there's still some great information & people on Mudcat & we have made the decision to remain. We read fewer threads, post less, & skip the posts of some members & guests assiduously, but still keep in regular touch. I disagree w/ your conclusion that discussing his dissatisfaction w/ Mudcat makes Jerry pretentious in any way. It seems clear that Jerry wasn't trying to make a grand exit, as some of us in our frustration have done. The only question is whether his name should have been mentioned in this thread at all. And, I don't fault jimmiet for that, either. He was frustrated that our forum might be losing a positive, intelligent, articulate, & talented member. I simply hope that Jerry, Art, & others of their ilk will realize that there is still something of value here & will choose to remain. best, bbc |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:42 AM I took it that one reason for jimmiet giving the name was in order to cut short this guessing game that was starting up, with people speculating who it was who'd had enough, and suggesting possible names. That could rapidly turn ugly. Every now and then we get these nasty little attacks of in-fighting, sort of a feeding frenzy. Then they die away. I share bbc's hope that, when it's passed, valued friends who've had enough of it will come on back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:33 AM Well I'm just glad it wasn't Don Firth. I'm a bit surprised at Art deciding to go just because someone else has, but if that's the way he makes his decisions, so be it. Sorcha, no disrespect to McG's preceding verses (and I should think he was unruffled about it) but I'm afraid that Martin Gibson's post about Madonna did make me chuckle a bit. The vision of Jerry in the field with butterflies was a bit over the top, but an evocative image, all the same. However, Martin Gibson, if you've been having a pop at Don Firth, that ain't funny, and it's got to stop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Bill D Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:49 AM giving up promotes a self-fulfilling hypothesis. "It's not all as I'd like it, so I will leave and tip the balance even further towards the trolls and problem causers." I KNOW how hard it is to ignore the nasty posts and anonymous trolls...and even members with attitudes you deplore, but unless MAJOR changes are made, that is the only answer. I once again affirm my intention to try to increase the good and self-filter the bad. We'll see....in any case, I am here for the duration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM its all abit difficult to follow. what was said that made him decide to go. I agree nobody should be insulted, but some people get upset when you are forthright in your opinions. I think we English are a bit less respectful of political leaders than our American friends and they are very sensitive about their constitutional rights - whereas we don't seem to have taken the trouble to right down a constitution. Its certainly easy to inflame sensibilities. Perhaps we have to be more careful about cultural differences. Anyway I hope your friend soon feels the nice people on mudcat are a bit too much to miss |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM Peter K gets it. There are more here that do than the uptight ones realize. "Over the Top" is subjective. The top is like a line that's always moving. People have fiddrent depth perception as to how close and how far that line is to them. I'm no Lenny Bruce, but there were those that said he was a genius and there were those that couldn't handle it. McGrath, I've never stalked anyone on this forum. For me, it's all about being spontaneous. That goes for everyone. As for Don Firth, I've never meant him any harm and actually have felt that he likes to stalk me and try to be someone who thinks he has to be the one who is going to have some kind of monumental effect on me. He's not. He has butted in many times to comment about what I comment on, and that's fine, but i will give him back again what I think of HIS train of thought. He is to me, just not that clever and he exudes some pretty good pompousness and snobbism. No problem. He dishes it out and he has shown that he can take it. I actually respect him for that. Actually, I haven't sparred with him for a while and it is not something that I really give much, if any thought about. You can warn me all you want, but I am sure Don Firth can take care of himself, so don't bother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Nerd Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM I think all right-thinking people on this forum are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people on this forum are fed up with being told they're sick and tired! I know that I'm not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM I don't think jimmyt was generally attacked for posting about this. I certainly only intended to share my own experience in this sort of matter, and ya know, I have been around here for quite some time. Some say I've learned a lot during that time. I know that I hope I have, though maybe not the same things folks feel I did, or should have. For the information of newer members around here, there is a long tradition that what is said in PMs is not posted in threads, except if the person who said it wants to quote what they sent. The PM system is part of what's designed here to allow for gracious clearing up of misunderstandings and letting off steam-- where it can be hoped a momentary frustration will not boil up into a full forum blow-up. I would be very sad to see this tradition lost as a mutual expectation in the community. IMO one of the things that had led to the atmosphere some find less than positive is a general lack of using the resources here, in the way they were designed to be used. Max's forum design lends itself, for example, to fast-moving repartee-- much faster than most message boards facilitate. A thread can easily be used like live-text interchange that is more commonly used in chat rooms. If those who most enjoy that kind of posting would use the place designed for it-- MudChat-- the BS side of the forum might gain a sense of being a place for calm, diverse discourse. So in addition to ignoring what one finds irritating, we have many options here-- many media-- and we can use them with a little more intentionality. If one's intention is to conduct a pissing contest-- MudChat is a great place to do it. If one's intention is to explore a diverse set of experiences, attitudes, opinions, and positions-- BS threads are a fine medium. And if one wants to share and explore the music that IMO is the highest form of communication for us here-- sticking to the music side of the thread list is always an option, as are PalTalk meetings to sing with one another. If you look at the last posts Jerry made before jimmyt says he decided he'd had enough-- it seems he did what a lot of us do from time to time-- he got stuck in the BS department. I betcha when he comes back it will be more in the music side. Some have said that how one experiences Mudcat is a function of what one chooses to do. I would go a step further and say it's not just what we do, it's the intentionality we bring. So I would ask-- Why are you here? Does your posting history reflect that? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Jeri Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:19 PM I'm sure Don can take care of himself too. He never seemed to be too emotionally invested in the sparring. Guessing at the real reason Jerry left is pretty pointless. We know it's the abusive stuff, but what abusive stuff, and by whom, and is he really that hurt, or has he simply decided this place isn't fun for him anymore? I can only speak for myself, but a couple of people who are dedicated to trying to make people feel like shit are pretty easy to ignore. It's the fan club - the ones who decide to 'fight fire with fire' that turn threads that should have gone on being about their original subject into conflagrations. Look at this thread: pointing fingers, looking for who and what policy to blame. "It's the GUESTS fault," "It's __________'s fault," "It's Jerry's fault for being too sensitive," "It's the fault of those who, I believe, should be protecting us from ourselves." You know what? It's all of us. We get into shit-slinging matches, and the stuff splatters and the whole place stinks. Maybe once in a while, if you're tempted to get invoved, you could just duck the occasional turd and let it fall to lie on the ground, ignored. As to moderation, should Max decide to go that way (flap, flap, oink), define exactly what you think should be deleted (Is anger abusive? Is irony abusive, if innocent bystanders may not 'get it'? Is profanity abusive?), who should do it (I really don't feel like I want to babysit a bunch of adults who should be able to 'filter' their own meanness out before sending), and figure out WHY they should want to do it, and how you're gonna force whoever's doing it to do it. Figure out what should happen when they don't. Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!" I can make a suggestion that will solve all our problems and drastically reduce the nastiness and the perceived need for moderation. If the kids can't play nice, close the playground. Shut down the BS section for a while, and see if that helps. I hope Jerry just decided to take a break. I'll miss him, but I don't blame him. I've been close enough to leaving myself not to understand, but I would miss the people and discussions I care about too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:29 PM You don't need to guess at the real reason Jeri. jimmyt was very clear that it was members postings that made him leave. As soon as that is accepted then you can move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:31 PM Jeri said Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!" You mean those who volunteer to do it? I will keep this in mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Jeri Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:32 PM " Look at this thread: pointing fingers, looking for who and what policy to blame." 'Who' is irrelevant. Blame is irrelevant. Thinking about what we're going to do about it, if anything, isn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:36 PM I would say the "who" is very relevant. What is the point of discussing solutions if you find the cause irrelevant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM I can make a suggestion that will solve all our problems and drastically reduce the nastiness and the perceived need for moderation. If the kids can't play nice, close the playground. Shut down the BS section for a while, and see if that helps. Why do I have a horrible feeling that this (or something similar) IS going to happen? Now I was not a fan of the BS prefix. I was not a great fan of a separate forum for this and I do not get involved in many of the threads there. However it has come to be the most vital part of the whole site. For the simple reason that it has enabled the music forum to continue to be the interesting place that attracted most (if not all) of us here in the first place. It functions as a safety valve, for the contributions of both members and guests. To close it even for a short period, change anything or restrict access to it, will be a terrible mistake. What is contributed there is BS and if anyone does not like to read BS - they simply do not have look there, let alone post. If it should be closed - the music forum (and the HELP forum) will again be the only place to contribute - and I doubt that it would ever recover. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM Closing the BS forum - just to see if it helps, is a bit like sawing off your leg to see if it might make walking easier. If it does not - and there is no evidence that such drastic action will - you can hardly just stick your leg back on again and expect things to be as before..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Jeri Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:12 PM What progress can be made by blaming people? It's over, done, and I think trying to figure out how to keep it from happening again is more important. The only conrol most of us have here is over what WE contribute, and the 'cause' you (and I) think is important is not a 'who' but a 'what'. I will agree with Shambles a bit here. We are so used to expecting someone to clean up after us that we do stuff when we perhaps should know better. You know how many times I've seen a post which, under ANY circumstance, should have been deleted followed by one reply...then another...then another. The people who posted, I'd wager, had consciences telling them "hey - this is something you should let go," and POSTED ANYWAY! My guess is they knew the whole thread would be zapped and their bad behavior would go with it. The instigator gets blamed for all of it, but that "But MAAAA...he MADE me do it!" doesn't even work for kids most of the time. It should be pretty easy to see through here, too. Blaming people is a wimp-out; a way of avoiding any real solutions. Then again, I don't see this sort of thing ever stopping. There are too many here who enjoy it. We, as a group, get what we deserve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Jeri Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:23 PM Shambles, I was being (mostly) ironic. It WOULD solve the problem, but it would also remove the good stuff, too. I'd rather give that good stuff precedence. I'd rather have it be more important for me. When we loose good opportunities, whether it's by limiting what we can talk about or leaving, we make the bad more important and let it win. For some, it might work out that way, and it's OK, but I'll likely hang in until there are no more smiles to be had, no more tears, and no more little flashes of brightness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way. Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others. Jeri I know you to be well-intentioned but feel that perhaps you demonstrate well the problem by your (closure) suggeston. It is almost as if over time folk here have been brainwashed into thinking that every problem can be solved by closing, judging, deleting and generally restricting our hard fought freedoms. Some of the posts seem to blame Max for the mess we make of the freedom he has given to us, to express ourselves on his website. The above poem is a start and yes (Kevin) it also applies to me. Accepting responsiblity for what our forum is, (the sum of all our contributions) rather than blaming each others postings for preventing it from being exactly what we may wish it to be, is at least a realistic goal. Perhaps this poem can appear in the FAQ or better still be placed on the forums as something for as all to aspire to and remember when we post? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: saulgoldie Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if what I say is a little redundant. I suggest that the best way to deal with trolls, flamers, etc is to just plain ignore them. They may persist for a while, but eventually they will give up. I include them what uses the "Guest" id as well as registered catters. Interesting to note that the same thing has been happening on another board I frequent that is about fountain pens. One would think that it would be the model of civility. One would be wrong. Perhaps it is a sign of the times, or perhaps it is just that we get access to more people through this world-wide electronic vehicle, and therefore "see" more knuckleheads. Rambling thought: how do you handle REAL LIVE people who behave boorishly? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Wesley S Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM My three year old usually gets my undivided attention. Yesterday when he threw a tantrum I ignored him. His tantrum was soon over. Everyone is here by their own choice. If someone is upset by the posts in the BS section it's because they have made a CHOICE to be in the BS section. You can also choose NOT to be in the BS section - or any other thread that has a tone that you don't like. It's really very simple. I think it was in that classic movie "The Karate Kid" that they pointed out that the best way to avoid a blow is to not be there. If we ignore the children that are having tantrums then they will soon end. Tantrums need an audience to be fully realized. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM Jeri said. We are so used to expecting someone to clean up after us that we do stuff when we perhaps should know better. You know how many times I've seen a post which, under ANY circumstance, should have been deleted followed by one reply...then another...then another. Again the concept that something should have been deleted and again this judgement of another's post. What use is being encouraged to judge the worth of something over which we have no real control? But the one who first posted and those following, did have control and I agree that the trick is to try and ensure that we are all encouraged to exert that self control and move on, rather than to judge the worth or otherwise, of each other's postings. I feel that the judgement is less that the offending post should have been deleted, to prevent others from making it worse or whatever, and maybe not judgement at all, just an acceptance that it was simply sad that it was posted in the first place. For once it has appeared - perhaps it is just a case of accepting that whatever damage it is going to do - has already been done? And of then limiting the attention it receives and the (over) reaction to it? A friend of mine had a very annoying phrase when something went wrong and which I usually got very animated about, but it probably sums up this situation here. He would just calmly and with no inflection in his voice say - Oh dear - how sad - never mind. Jack Charlton was/is a soccer manager who had a very down to earth, no-nonsense approach to the job. Sometimes a draw was the best his (Irish) team could resonably expect. However, relying too much on this was risky. He came up with the instruction to his team that they were always to try to score the equalising goal first! If his team did manage to do this, sometimes the other side would not manage to score at all and as a result his team did better than just draw the game - they actually won! Perhaps that maybe the beginning of an answer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:38 PM Interesting to note that the same thing has been happening on another board I frequent that is about fountain pens. One would think that it would be the model of civility. One would be wrong. Bunch of nosey Parkers there too eh? *smiles* |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:48 AM Enough to make your eyes "Water man". |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: John MacKenzie Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:55 AM While climbing Mont Blanc I presume? Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Gervase Date: 27 Aug 04 - 04:23 AM Certainly makes 'em Cross! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: fat B****rd Date: 27 Aug 04 - 04:25 AM Bloody Hell..what a f***ing carry on. I only popped in with a Leadbelly query a couple of years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Wesley S Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:05 AM Leadbelly was NOT a query - that's an unfounded rumor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: PoppaGator Date: 27 Aug 04 - 04:13 PM I try very hard *not* to spend too much time and energy perusing this BS section, but I yielded to temptation and just looked in on this thread for the first time in several days. I am very sorry to learn that Jerry is the "good one" who quit. I believe there's a pretty good chance he'll be back sooner or later, hopefully staying up in the music section where he has so much to contribute and avoiding this morass of pettiness and gossip down here. Let me report that I've traded some very amicable PMs both with Jerry Rasmussen *and* with Martin Gibson. MG was quite gracious and helpful; of course, we were not discussing personalities, we were talking about Martins and Gibsons (safe topics). (Jerry was more than gracious, too, of course. Goes without saying.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,Blackcatter Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:26 PM For goodness sake - this is just a stupid website! You want something real to bitch about? Here you go - I was riding my bike home yesterday afternoon from the grocery store. I was riding down one road - one I often ride on. There was traffic coming the other way and suddenly there was a car behind me. I only really noticed it, bucause it honked. I paid no attention, but it honked again. I glanced back as saw a very angry face in the drivers seat. I kept going, since I had every right to do so, and there was a curb I could not get over easily at 15 mph. The idiot laid on his horn. I no longer looked back and was grateful there was a break in the oncoming cars, so he could pass. He did pass. Without bothering to move out of my way. his back bumper clipped my heel and pedal. At probably twice my speed. His actions flipped my bike around and I found myself flat on my back, the food in my backpark mostly ruined, my shoe ripped to shreds, my heel bleeding and the pedal missing. Luckily I wasn't hurt more or even killed. He continued to speed off. I couldn't get his # because of the shock. No one else stopped to help. Eventually I got up and limped back home. I lost $20 worth of food. My bike needs repairs and if I had health insurance, i probably would have gotten stiches. At what point should I give a damn about nasty people on the Mudcat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:27 PM And I thought Leadbelly was a fountain pen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM I agree Blackcatter. This place is fantasyland compared to real life. Unfortunately for some, this is as close to real life as they can get. Pathetic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Ellenpoly Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM Really sorry to hear that, Blackcatter...hasn't been your week, has it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST,Blackkcatter Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:39 PM Well Hurricane Charley was annoying, losing my job was unexpected, but the car was personal. And then I come here to enjoy myself, having learned to mostly ignore the idiot flammers yet now there's more discussion about them, than from them. I'd suggest that someone start a rival Mudcat with all the censorship people have been asking for. If you don't like what's on the market, make it yourself, or shuddup. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM Well, Blackcatter, you can always join us over at the Tavern. :~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:40 PM Pretty rough, Blackcatter. Of course someone else could post saying "How can you complain about something like that happening in the light of people being raped and murdered in wars in other parts of the world?". And they'd be wrong. I agree that it's a mistake to make too much of the kind of things that go wrong here, it's not the end of the world. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong to try and make things better, and try to stop them getting worse, in any place we are, including virtual places such as the Mudcat. Losing Jerry and maybe Art Thieme definitely makes this place not such a good place, and that's a real shame. When vandalism wins anywhere, it matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:38 AM When vandalism wins anywhere, it matters. If it does win, and I don't think that it has quite won here yet - we do have only ourselves to blame. The cause is freedom. We are so constrained in just about every way from our very early years, that when we are presented with freedom - we don't really know how to use it. Indded some vandals just choose to wreck and others (in fairness, sometimes in response to the wrecking) seem intent on throwing that freedom away by the imposition and return of the very constraints that they have been freed from....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:07 PM Guest Blackcatter said: For goodness sake - this is just a stupid website! For the sake of goodness, is a worthy cause to have a stupid website for - and a worthy cause to be stupid on - and long may it continue. But that is just my opinion. Sadly it is not currently shared by those poster we have lost, let us hope and trust (for goodness sake) that we can give them cause and they will have cause to change their mind..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 30 Aug 04 - 02:38 PM It doesn't matter - Blackcatter has said he's leaving too. Good riddance to them all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: PoppaGator Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM Blackcatter never said anything about leaving, and he hasn't. He's still posting as of Monday afternoon, both from his own PC as as "GUEST, blackcatter at work." If he has quit posting to *this* thread and similar ones, more power to him. He's doing the intelligent thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: GUEST Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM Blackcatter - in the battle between two wheels and four wheels, four wheels is always going to win. Trust me on this, and move out of the way next time. Nowhere is it written that fairness is a universal entitlement. The driver is wrong, but you're the one who wound up with the loss, injuries, and damage. Sorry you are having such a run of bad luck. Jeri, I almost always agree with you. Even when I don't, I am inclined to anyway because your arguments are always even-keeled and balanced. Such consistency and stalwart dependability is rare these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Irish sergeant Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:35 PM I'm sorry when anyone leaves but you knbow, that is their choice and I assume they have good reason. It is, after all a web site and there are more important things in all of our lilves. I try not to offend people here and I apologize if I do. I hop on for infoprmation mostly and sometimes to have a bit of fun (see the Millard Filmore thread) I hope Jerry and anyone else who has left will reconsider and return to the fold Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: freda underhill Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM for what its worth, in a pm from jerry i got the idea that he was toning down his mudcat connection, having a break and not being so involved. some people suffer in life and pass it one, others suffer and move on, and jerry's one of those. that song about Jerry was great, McGrath of H, and describes what a lovely man he is. mudcat is more than a source of knowledge and entertainment - it has some great people. where is dianavan? has artbrooks been round lately? its tough when people start inspirational or positive threads that get hijacked by people being negative. maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there. freda |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there. And then people could sneak in and throw a spanner in the works by being nice... See how they liked that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: freda underhill Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM LoL!! if we all work together - we can totally undermind the... ....nasties! freda ps .. have a nice day! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:58 PM maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there. It's been done, it didn't work. And I'd really like to see people stop referring to what people say to us in PM's or pretty soon people are going to stop using them. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: jimmyt Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:06 PM Nice posts, Freda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: The Shambles Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:07 PM >maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there.< It's been done, it didn't work. The encouraging the reactive routine judgement of the worth of other peoples's posts and the imposition of editing action based on that judgement has not worked either...... This does not stop it from being the only game in town - nor from this single measure and the unknown number of unknown volunteers that impose it, being supported as if it did work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM At this point, Shambles, blah? |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: greg stephens Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:52 AM Just to sound a note of cautious optimism, the saintly gospel singer who likes Lonnie Donegan is back among us! |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: Once Famous Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM Yes, and he has responded to a post that I started in the music section and I to one he started. So, a lot here really did a lot of pissing and moaning for nothing, it appears. Just a lot of over-reacting and bunching of ones shorts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one From: hesperis Date: 03 Sep 04 - 01:55 AM Heh, I didn't care about the person asking whether I was hetero because that only proved that the person hadn't clicked on the link to the pictures yet! Hesperis is sometimes portrayed as male and sometimes as female, so I'm not too surprised that someone might be confused. Still, they were only showing their ignorance. *Shrug* |
