This Forum & American Folk Music

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: lucky_p
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:50 PM

Jerry,

I see your point, except that folk music, particularly its "roots" element (i.e., union songs, songs of the civil war/revolutionary war, songs of the westward migration, women's songs, freedom songs, field hollars, appalachian banjo and fiddle tunes, cajun culture, sea chanteys, and the list goes on) -- this not tin pan alley and it is not popular music (except the "singer-songwriters" who are really performing popular music, and while much of it I do like, it is not "folk music.") Folk music has a social and political agenda, always has. It has a life beyond the words and melody and harmony. It's a political statement when the expectation is that the audience will be encouraged to sing along with the performer, as peers, as part of the performance, rather than the performer singing for a passive, silent audience. In short, there are many special dimensions and characteristics of folk music that sets it apart from other forms of music and, I believe, elevates it in some ways like traditional jazz and blues -- other "homemade" music. And it should be proud of itself for that distinction, and promoted as such, and represent an artistic/musical bulwark against the violence and ignorance and cheapness of so much of popular music/popular culture today.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:58 PM

Much to my chagrin, many people I talk with give me a bovine expression when I tell them I play folk music. They usually ask, "What is that?" They aren't engaging in Mudcat polemics here.. or Polecat polemics. They don't have a clue what I'm talking about. The 60's were a lonnnnnnnnnng time ago. I suppose that response is far preferable to scrinching up their nose and going eeeewwwwww!

Maybe we're just too obsessed with labels in this country.

If I just play the songs, they usually like them. And then they'll say... "Oh, that's what folk music is?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:45 PM

JimmyT:

Next time, just ask him to explain what folk music is. Then thank him VERY much for clarifying things!! LOL!


A

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:36 PM

I've got fairly recent - (like 160 years back) roots in the UK, an American husband, had a Kiwi mother, and I'm an Aussie. So I find I've got things to learn and things to contribute on many music threads. I also have a passionate interest in British and American folklore.
Mudcat for me is the coffee-shop I always wanted to go to to talk deep talk and learn to play the wise and witty fool. I never knew how you got in. Here I suspect there are others who never got behind the green door either.
Off the track a bit but it seemed relevant there for a while until I got to rambling again.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:51 PM

I'm an American but the old American ballads led me to investigate their ancestors - from England, Scotland and Ireland. So I'm glad both are discussed on Mudcat. I enjoy keeping up with the UK music scene on Mudcat so I don't mind the UK "Who's playing where" threads. I seldom post on Mucat even when I have a question because, while I appreciate the information and knowledge here there is also a lot of sarcasm and nastiness and one never knows what will set it off. I've actually composed pretty long posts and then just deleted them and not posted because I was afraid something I said would elicit cutting criticism, nasty remarks or some kind of controversy, even if it was just an opinion. That might make me sound like a wimp (after all, this is cyberspace and not real life) but I have to deal with enough cranky cantankerous relatives and co-workers and I just don't want to get into it. I'm glad both sides of the Atlantic are well represented, I just wish there wasn't so much bickering. Not accusing anyone on this thread, by the way, and now I'll go back to my lurking.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:38 PM

I would cetainly agree that for quite some time, the announcement threads about who is playing where, or about specific folk clubs' activities, or specific sessions, singarounds, and festivals have proliferated, and that the UK events seem to be there in much greater numbers.

So I would propose some enterprising Brit might take over the "What's On" permathread now that Bert no longer works at Mudcat Central and is not online enough to maintain it.

Volunteers for THAT job might contact Joe Offer.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM

Apologize for the thread creep! I am kind of random today.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:38 PM

Brings up an interesting story.(at least to me) My group was performing at the Mountain Opry recently on SIgnal Mtn Tennessee, a neat venue for anyone close enough to check it out. Predominately bluegrass music, sign in sheet, every group gets a half hour, etc/


Well we had never performed there before, and when we did Reubin James, TOm Dooley, MTA, Settledown, Don't think Twice and Leavin' on a Jet Plane along with a couple Irish standards, (ROddy Mc COrley was one of them) We had a terrific response from a packed house. THe folks had never heard a whistle played in a song before, hadn't heard most of this music since the 60s, and although it was not their standard music, they loved our harmonies, and were generally very positive about it.

ONe guy, though singled me out and wanted to argue that this was not, in fact, folk music, and we had no right to advertise that it was. I gently tried to suggest that the songs we had sung were many from the 60s but had origins long before then is some cases. He was just adamant about it. (While the guitars were tuning before Tom Dooley, I was just filling with mindless drivel. and started off on a tangent about our last song was an Irish Tune also, called Tom O'Dooley. I made it very clear to the audience that I was joking, at least I thought) ...and as this guy made his parting shot, "Oh, and not only is your music not folk music, that Tom O'Dooley is not even an Irish song!" "Your correct, sir, that was a joke".

What in the hell would make someone go off like that?" I have not enjoyed music before but would never consider going up and making a big deal about it? I guess I just don't understand what makes some people tick. Rant over! It is interesting that the other three members got nothing but praise and when I told them what this guy said, the didn't believe me

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM

Well MG I'll tellya what, if you have any gospel treasures lurking around, I want 'em, so post away. And I'll want to HEAR 'em, too, cuz if they are good songs I will want to learn them. Of course if you sent me a CD there is a good chance I would figure out who you are, but altho I am armed I am not usually dangerous. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:58 PM

Martin, as for me, I never thought you were a bad guy. I may not always agree with you, but I love the way you are direct and honest. I remember some of the first posts that I read from you were dealing with country music. It is obvious that you know what you are talking about and you are passionate about music - and other things.

This was and is a great thread. I do wish there was more discussion about American folk music, but we should also remember that it is still summertime and most Americans are traveling around the country checking out festivals and ENJOYING folk music in all it's various forms. Maybe when the weather turns cooler we will start seeing some great American threads about what kind of hammer John Henry used, the proper length of strings on dulcimers, Tom Dula's favorite color, and other esoteric American folk topics!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:49 PM

PoppaGator

No I'm not such a bad guy after all. I've been making music long before I could vote.

If people who claim to be open minded would just accept reasoning and an outlook that is different from their own................well enough of that.

Music is my first love. It is a passion, and 40+ years of playing it and studying it would give me plenty of opportunity to share some things about what I know something about.

That's kind of what led me to start this thread.
thanks to all for a lot of good responses.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM

Lucky P - Tracy Chapman and Suzanne Vega are hardly commercial successes. Especially in 2004. Each have had a few tunes that crept into the pop charts over the years, but today they are playing to the same audience that listens to the artists you mentioned at the end of your note.

I have a 14 year old daughter who listens to pop music. The closest to "folk" that she listens to is Jason Mraz. You can't force people to listen, there needs to be a reason. Chapman and Vega made it attractive at one point.

I think we have to be less concerned with "selling" the music and more concerned with "making" the music. There were very specific reasons why there was a folk music revival on both sides of the Atlantic and you can't artificially create a scene. Even though the media is accused of creating pop stars, there are more complex reasons why a Madonna or Brittany Spears makes it big.

You can't predict the spot when a meteor will hit again.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:20 PM

What an excellent thread, and topic! There have been SO many reponses since last evening, most of them quite intelligent and all of them interesting.

I guess Martin Gibson isn't such a bad guy, after all -- whatcha think, gang?

VERY glad to see Jerry Rasmussen's name as part of this. I heard he quit -- but I also predicted he'd be back. Wasn't so sure it would be this soon, though...

If indeed all the good topics have already been discussed, let's do 'em again! Many of us are still relatively new and might have missed a few discussions the first time around

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: lucky_p
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

Folk music performance in America has its home primarily non-commercial establishments: churches, community organizations, art centers, etc., and some backrooms of bars. I don't really understand why this is so, and have been wondering about this for years -- I believe the young people really listened to it -- to wit, it was on MTV or the radio -- they would love it. Witness the commercial rise in America of Tracey Chapman and Suzanne Vega, both of whom got their start in backrooms of bars.

I think it's very hard for folk music, particularly traditional folk music, to find a home in America because we live now in an increasingly techno video time filled with flashy loud imagery. Folk music is the antithesis of that: it speaks to low tech intimacy around the camp fire, it speaks to deep yearnings for community, for the pleasures of working together for a goal, rather than all important rugged individual/master of the universe. In short, it is inherently a low tech, hand made genre; and we live a time that values high tech, machine made culture.

I don't know what the answer is. I do think that the world would be a far better place with more folk music and less gangsta rap. More folk music and less Madonna. More folk music and less Britney Spears.

For our friends across the pond: here are a few American beauties in the field of folk music (all have web sites): Robin Greenstein, Jack Hardy, David Roth (not David Lee Roth), Richard Shindell.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:40 PM

Another option I recall and can recommend is looking at the music thread list periodically and refreshing interesting stuff that's about to fall off the daily list.

Because--

Sometimes a thread with fewer than 10 posts just does not look interesting enough to people and they don't open it and contribute, but a thread that keeps landing on the top of the list will often be opened out of curiosity.

Also, a lot of the knowledgable members are not here every day, so if the thread falls off, they don't tend to see it.

Other past options that can be very productive are that if one is taking a break from BS or from one's own music interests-- the well running dry for examle-- spending a few minutes opening and answering lyric requests can lead to some interesting places for oneself, AND add to the interest in the forum. A little Googling for somoene else's request(s) can be a good thing.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:33 PM

I got pretty bummed out contributing about Spirituals, since people who I thought should have known better kept ignoring the work a number of us had done, and continued asking and posting ignorant stuff in that and other threads. I sorta just transferred the energy to other off-Mudcat stuff, tho I think I will resume work on the project at some point and I am glad it all sits here, available. There are still only 24 hours in a day.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM

Maybe all of the good topics have been discussed.

I experienced this on another fan based folk music web forum.

After some years, there really wasn't much left to talk about.

Maybe Americans like to let their music do the talking. I' rather play than talk about it!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:22 PM

Problem is, MArtin, I am an entertainer. My three compadres, however are pure folk players and since they played in the 60s when people sat and listened to the words, they can't figure out why the inattentative nature of some venues exists.

My premise is that when this happens, we are playing the wrong place. It is always amazing when you perform a song, let's say, Don't Think Twice, and someone immediately requests something like Proud Mary, or The Devil Went Down to Georgia. It isn't like they are being rude, but it is a lot like me going into a hardware store and asking them if they have a head of cabbage. "Son, you are in the wrong store."

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Steve-o
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:11 PM

This question has been in the back of my mind too, MG...thanks for posting it. Lots of good responses here, and I think they are mostly right on. I am guilty of scanning titles like "What's on in the Middletwitch?" and "To busk or not to busk" and rapidly losing interest. It's sort of a vicious cycle. I can't help but miss the interesting posts of the past from people like Justa, Catspaw, and, God knows, Rick.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:02 PM

When I was first introduced to Mudcat I thought it was a Hull and East Riding site with contributions mainly from insomniacs it took some time to appreciated that it originated elsewhere hence the daft time keeping

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:59 AM

jimmyt

I cut my teeth on the folk era stuff you mentioned. Actually learned to play guitar from all of those old Kingston Trio albums on Capitol records. I have lived in a large city (chicago) where there has always been a thriving folk community, pubs, concert venues, coffe houses, etc. and the home of one of the longest running folk music based organizations, The Old Town School. I do recognize that many other communities, even large cities do not have these resources.

I also recognize that the English pubs mentioned are a big part of their community.

However, if you are going to play a show, it is the artist's/entertainer's job to win over the semi attentive or non attentive audience. True, there can be problems with a room such as a bad PA or no PA at all. If this is the case, you still have to shut-up and play and do what ever it takes to own the audience.

There used to be an expression called "working a room." the real pros know how to do this.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:58 AM

Or, Martin, as I have found out, there is quite a difference of opinion of the dreaded question, "What is folk music" Our UK friends do not seem to struggle with the definition of what trad music is. Here in AMerica, we have a lot of variations and some folks are very firm about the definition.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:56 AM

When I first stumbled on to Mudcat (or whatever it was back then) it was at a site supported by Zerox - then it disappeared and soon reappeared - I think about 1997.

At that time my impression of the data base was that it was heavily skewed toward British Isle songs - not that there's anything wrong with that - although I would like to see a few more traditional and old timey American songs there.

In terms of participation on the discussion forum I felt it was pretty evenly spread across English speakers - England, Ireland, Britain, Australia, the US, some South American, a few German, Iceland, etc. Which is pretty darned neat.

One of the supprises to me - for a site supposedly oriented to the "blues" - was so little evidence of them - either in the data base or in discussion.

The discussions back then seemed to be basically requests for lyrics, then off-the-wall-humor with people like Catspaw, and then later, when some expert pickers showed up - like Rick Fielding and Art Thieme - some really informative discussions about instrument technique.

Once in a great while there would be an in-depth discussion of the origin of a particular song, or about the use of modes, etc. There were, and are, some real scholars present on this forum.

Although there was always a bit of truculence, and some hurt feelings, it doesn't seem that major imbroglios and personal attacks were a part of Mudcat until the last few years. The "below the line" BS division was, to my mind, a brilliant way to separate the chaff from the wheat.

To sum up; the Mudcat will never entirely be what any one person wants it to be, British or American, pure music or BS, but, if you're willing to go with the flow, it's still one of the most interesting sites about folk music on the internet.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:51 AM

We do not have pubs in the U.S., but we do have bars. Bars are not exactly family oriented establishments (I don't think pubs are either) and folk music does not exist on the jukeboxes.

Folk music is presented in churchs and schools by primarily volunteer organizations. There are commercial establishments that feature folk music, but I would argue that they are not the primary venue these days.

There is an audience for "folk" music, in all it's various forms. Getting back to Martin's original point, I just don't think that many people discuss it on this forum.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:43 AM

This is an interesting thread, Martin, and actually one like this that was my first post to the mudcat. Let me make some generalizations that I am sure will be argued, but I think you need to remember that just because things are different in your small town or area, they may not be that way elsewhere in the USA.

America doesn't have pubs. Now before you all go off on this, remember that the pubs in UK are pretty much extensions of the living room and serve as a daily forum for the people of the community. There are areas that do not fit this discription but there are the exception and not the rule, Incidently, where these type areas are, there is often a more active folk community.

There may be truth in that Americans wish to be entertained, and not just entertained, they don't even want to listen quietly. We have sort of a culture nowadays that makes music, even live, sort of muzac. We have played at least 2 jobs where the audience actually liked what we did a lot, but they were talking with friends, laughing, etc with almost no perceptable interest in what we were doing. THose performances are absolutley devastating to folk musicians, as it seems a personal rejection of our music, when in reality, it is more af a mind set of the younger generation where this is socially acceptable.

My group performs mostly 60s Kingston Trio, Limeliters, Peterr, Paul and Mary music with a smattering of Irish music where I play whistle in addition to our 4 part harmony. Most of the time, when I play the whistle lots of people want to know what it is. They have never been exposed to this type of music at all. We do have an audience of loyal followers, mostly 45-80 year olds who remember all the old stuff and enjoy singing along, but there is little recognition from younger folks, although they seem to like it.

There is a much larger community of Bluegrass folks, as well as blues and jazz, but they do not tend to overlap as much as our griends in UK seem to . just some ramblings for thought

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:04 AM

Jerry Rasmussen

thanks for responding to my thread. I will look for the one you started and see if there is anything I can add.

It is good to see that my observations are not alone on this.

I do believe that Americans do like to be entertained and that the musicians actually like to entertain.

When I do a gig, solo or with a group, the people sitting out there as your audience have a right to be entertained. they like to sing along. They like to have memories invoked by old songs. They want to FEEL GOOD and why as an artist, you wouldn't want them to feel this way is a bit mind blowing just to satisfy your own needs.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:01 AM

http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm?mixbs=yes is supposed to do it if one is not logged in (from FAQ)...

BS-viewing options if logged in (click MEMBERSHIP up in the topmost page banner):

BS filter Yes No If "Yes," filters threads designated "BS / non-music" out of Threads listing

Mix Music & Non-music Yes No If "Yes," mixes music and non-music threads in the Threads listing

~S~

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:58 AM

Anyone interested in listening to some American Folk could do worse than listen to the folk channel on Netscape radio. Free download - Lots of good channels. Dunno if it representative but I realy enjoy the (mainly) American Folk on there.

Parochialist - I dunno if your post was tongue in cheek or not. Am I loosing my 6th sense;-) Just in case it was serious, from my last trip to the States (Chicago, St Louis, various bits other bits of Illinois and Arkansas) there are some great bars there! Most with good beer and all I visited had live music at least twice a week - More often with most.

Perhaps I was just lucky or had a good guide :-P

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:58 AM

gs, I forgot we can do that. I don't remember how either. Maybe it's in the FAQ.....

~S~

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:49 AM

Susan Wizzything: I firmly look at Mudcat with the BS and music mixed, as it it used to be. It does mean you get the crap from Iraq mixed with the Dorian mode analysis, but I like it that way. It is an option all can use, though I cant actually remember what it is you press to change from one mode to the other.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM

And another thing-- at the risk of causing a big thread lurch....

Before the BS went below-line, it seems to me a lot of people frequenting the forum would skim the daily thread list looking for interesting topics. If you were bored, and had no fresh music ideas of your own to start a thread over, you'd open up music threads to see what the heck someone was talking about. As often as not, a music thread title would be as interesting as what later came to be labeled a BS topic.

So these music threads would be opened and sometimes some pretty interesting discussions emerged.... sometimes these would lead to links back to other real interesting music threads..... a really cool thing would be when people didn't actually know much about the music topic of the thread, and they'd ask questions, and people would come along in time and answer them, and all KINDS of cool stuf would get added to the thread, or links to stuff elsewhere like sound samples....

I miss that stuff. I like BS threads and I like the forum split, but I wish people would look above-line more and even just open random music threads and participate in the discussion beyond the "me too" or "hey Jane your panties are showing" kinda posts in them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM

The UK folks seem very well organized when it comes to doing sessions--

We have perhaps too many genres to choose from(Blues, Bluegrass, Old Timey, Jug Band, Hawaiian, Rockabilly, and nine kinds of jazz) and often have trouble getting a quorum--When you do, one of two things happens:

1) Someone knows of a gig, and half the session turns into a band while the other half wander off with hurt feelings

2) The two people who have been coordinating everything suddenly leave to start a drumming circle.

Excepting, of course, if it is a Chanty sing;-)

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:41 AM

Super Ted - 2 more UK based sites, both run by Jon who often pops into Mudcat. Both are mentioned on Mudcat Help (www.help.mudcat.org) as alternatives to Mudcat when it is down.

Folkinfo is a music site
http://www.folkinfo.org/forum.asp -

The Annex is a non-music site for Mudcat members only.
http://www.jonbanjo.com/forum/default1.asp

sandra

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:36 AM

with barely 400 years maximum under our belt - there is almost not time enough for us to *HAVE* traditional music!!!! Especially if you are of the school that it needs to be of the "unknown author - orally transmitted" variety. ;)

Consider the fact that even in the 1800's much of the US was "frontier" -

I do a Dickons Festival set in 1842 - at that time the village we are set in had a population that was 90% immigrants! 90%!

Another thing is the amount of immigration:(for example) in my family Mid 1800's really only puts us back to my great-grandparents. Of My 8 great-granparents - one was a Norwegian immigrant, 4 Italian (and still in Italy for another generation), 1 American/Dutch; 1 German-American; 1 English/American.

point being - there hasn't been that much time to file off the serial numbers of folk songs and make them "american" rather then English, or Scots, or whatever.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:27 AM

This is a great forum - there is no other place that I, in Chicago, can ask a question on Welsh folk music and get an answer usually within an hour. (Thanks Sian and others)
Interesting letter in this Sing Out, the prior issue referred to folks from Ireland and Scotland as English - obviously, not correct and the same would be true for the Welsh.
Do you folks in the UK have a preference?
Also, anyone in the Great Midwest should consider going to the Fox Valley Folk Festival this weekend - good weather predicted, Art - will you be there? Nothing like sitting on the island, looking at the river, and listening to great music.
Chris (that's why we moved back to Wheaton)

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:14 AM

Maybe Brits have more time on their hands to discuss such things??

Seriously, I think Freightdawg's comments are right on target. From what I see at various U.S. festivals, the Folk Alliance and doing my radio show - there is still a huge emphasis on the singer-songwriter aspect of folk music.   During the 80's and 90's the word "folk" became a "4 letter word". Musicians would call themselves "acoustic" or "singer-songwriter". Traditional music seemed to go underground.   In recent years the appreciation for traditional music seems to be growing again. I receive many trad CD's now of American folk music that did not seem to exist a few years ago.   

However, there still seems to be less involvement with traditional music. As someone said earlier, Americans would rather be entertained and not as many people are actively researching and studying the music as they once were.

As Susan said, our folk heritage can be traced back to other countries so we do tend to end up back "home".

Ron

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:28 AM

But we are British. Do those sites seem to have a huge number of American posters, in the same way that Mudcat can sometimes seem anglocentic?

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:26 AM

Wow! Thanks for that countess. I am still a beginner with bloody computers.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:02 AM

Lots of us also hang out at:

uk.music.folk

BBC Folk & Acoustic

eceilidh

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:51 AM

I use this site because my daughter pointed me in its general direction, and lo, all the English Folkies I know use it too. A reverse question if I may: Why are all us ENGLISH bodies using an AMERICAN site?
Do you all use another site in England that I know nowt about?

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:21 AM

You zare right, Martin:

There isn't enough conversation going on in here about American folk music. The only way to correct that is to start more threads about it. Thanks for starting this one.

Now, I'll start one.

Jerry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Parochialist
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:10 AM

I've never been to the US, but I get the impression that whereas UK had great pubs and great beer, US just has bars with lousy beer and the TV on.

No wonder UK has a more active folk scene.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:05 AM

This is a sociology-student's-thesis

The pieces are in one place....all waiting ANALysis

First we were American Folk, than we were BLUES, then the wiccans invited the sick ones, and in a continual spiral .... the MudCat was spun away into the abyss.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

THE MANTRA OF HIGHER EDUCATION....First we were scholarly, then we went dollarly, now we take.... whatever we can get.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:51 PM

I really like bluegrass and classic country songs, but I don't know that they lend themselves to in-depth discussion quite as readily at the English songs do. Most of these songs have a known composer; so there is a definitive text for a song, rather than a wide variety of versions and variations. A large number of the actual "traditional" songs in the U.S. have English roots - so they end up fitting into discussions of English songs.

Also, I don't think that Mudcat has the saturation here in the U.S. that it has in the U.K. Portland/Seattle and Washington DC seem to have concentrations of Mudcatters, singers who see each other regularly at Mudcat and in person. I know lots of people in the San Francisco Folk Music Club who have visited Mudcat and posted regularly, but only a small handful are "regulars" at Mudcat. There are Mudcatters scattered all over the center of the U.S., but no concentrations. So, I think that's another reason.

But even if there isn't the balance some people might like, it seems we get around to discussing every aspect of folk music in most of the English-speaking world. I've sometimes wondered what it is that starts an interesting thread. I think all it takes is an intelligent question that doesn't have an easy answer - a question that hasn't been asked and answered before. I think that questions start good discussions more readily than the simple posting of lyrics. If I post the complete lyrics to Joe Hill's Last Will," what else is there to say about it? Besides, we already have the song in the Digital Tradition, and it's a composed song with few variations from the original text. There's a DTStudy thread called Songs of Joe Hill, so it's probably best to add to that study instead of starting a new thread. We can use more Joe Hill songs, and a deeper discussion of Joe's life and death.

So, I think that's it - an intelligent question on a new subject, or a subject we haven't explore full. If you want to tip the scales toward your favorite aspect of folk music, post a question.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:51 PM

since Martin started this thread, and he is more oriented toward Bluegrass & Country, I'm sure it is a bit lop-sided for him...I do know that both Bluegrass & Country, although they have folk roots, are often narrow fields over here, and have their own focused web sites and festivals and discussions. We don't have a 'lot' of Mudcatters who will start an extended discussion of Bill Monroe or Waylon Jennings, though they may reply if they see one.

Mudcat has people who know a bit about all sorts of things, and if a Bluegrass question pops up, it will get replies, but many of the serious American 'folkies' realize that the roots of their music is often in the UK, and end up following a lot of the UK focused threads also.

I do know I have picked up on many UK performers I never heard of by seeing posts on Mudcat, partly because almost everyone in the UK knows the same ones. Here in the USA, there are entire folk scenes in different parts of the country which seldom meet each other. Mudcat has allowed some more cross-fertilization of the music scene, and will no doubt do more yet...

(So...when ARE others besides Joe Offer gonna come see us in the east?)

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:33 PM

When I first came across the place, a little over 5 years ago, Americans were far and away in the majority here. Many reasons for that; quite apart from anything else, the technology was a lot more expensive in the British Isles, and most of us had to rely on costly, slow and unreliable dial-up connections.

That has changed. We still have to pay more than you do in the US, but the difference isn't so great, and fewer of us now are economically excluded from participation in forums like this. The balance has shifted, I suspect, to something closer to the true "folk music" demographic.

Martin only started posting here in April 2004, and presumably won't be very familiar with the way things were back in, for example, July 1999, when I tentatively made my first contribution. The default assumption back then was that everyone, unless they said otherwise, was American.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:16 PM

duellingbouzoukis, you could start here with Jean Ritchie's books. She explains how the same songs and ballads found in England, Scotland and Ireland showed up in the southern Appalachian mountains. And IMO, they are some of the most beautiful ballads. It's interesting to study the different variants. Of course, as I stated here before, I'm primarily a tune person, so I'm fascinated with these.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:10 PM

I'm just going by the Mudcat Locator in guessingthere are more American Mudcatters. And when there has been the occasional "where are you?" thread it seems to suggest the same.

But there are a lot more people around from this side of the water - largely, I suspect, because of the way the Internet connections have got much easier here, but also because word of mouth has got around through people meeting each other in festival singarounds and suchlike.

"Argument" didn't imply any kind of conflict in my earlier post, just a discussion between people presenting different points of view. But before getting into the enjoyable activity of rival explanations of the facts, it's as well to have the facts themselves clarified.

Mind, we do seem to have a knack of turning such discussions into battle royals sometimes... Not just on the Mudcat, folk musicians generally - I've got two friends who've not spoken to each other for years, or played together either (which is a lot worse in my book), all because of a fight they got into over what was the right key for some tune.
.................

Nice to have people say things like that about me. Though at any moment I expect to see someone heaving into sight balancing things up. ("McGrath? Don't mention that man's name, I can't stand him...")

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:58 PM

Since I started looking in I think the balance has changed and as the way music changes as it crosses the pond is one of my interests, I hope it's a swings and roundabouts thing.
We don't seem to hear as much from some of the big posters from over there at the moment.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:38 PM

er..apologies to Washington. I didn't mean to imply it was a laundromat...

On the contrary, Q, I personally am glad to know what's happening in Bumwater (though not particularly in whether or not Thomasina is going), because I may just drop by there one day and it would be useful to know when and where they hold their session/ceilidh.

I also like to know who is getting gigs where, and how they've been received. Such reports from venues far away can alert you to watch out for up-and-coming artists when they appear near you. I'm sure this sort of information is useful for visiting transatlantic mudcatters too (well, I hope so...).