This Forum & American Folk Music

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:36 PM

Actually the great Folk Scare was kind of a reverse feed, as far as origins go, and a great deal of genuinely American music has found its way back to England to start a second life as a source of inspiration. Rambling Jack Elliot is one example, certainly. There are many others.

A

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:32 PM

I, too, almost always find myself in agreement with the always agreeable McGrath of Harlow. I think it's interesting that this is one very rare time when I don't -- he apparently senses that there are more American Mudcatters while I still feel like there are more Brits.

Probably just a simple matter of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence"!

When I first started checking in here on a daily basis, I was astounded at the wealth of activities available to pickers and singers there across the pond. I was (and still am) envious! There may not be as many opportunities in the UK as in the US for making good money as a performer, but there *certainly* seem to be more opportunities in the UK and in Ireland to perform and participate for one's own enjoyment.

And, insofar as the Mudcat can serve as a clearinghouse for information about such activities, it is certainly fitting, right and just, that it should perform that function.

I don't think anyone's complaining, and certainly not accusing the Mudcat Cafe itself of maintaining any discriminatory policy -- we're all just making observations.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:23 PM

The balance seems OK to me. I am also glad to see posts of non-English songs as well as the whole English-speaking world. They all contribute to my understanding.

Threads publicizing performance dates and local events perhaps should be segregated into a special page, as Mark suggests. They are of little value to anyone beyond commuting distance.

I object to use of the 'Lyrics and Knowledge' threads to say "Hey, Thomasina, I'm going to the bash in Wigglebottom on Bumwater- will you be there?" Use the Personal messages or Email.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:58 PM

To be concise, so do I (agree with McGrath usually) ;-)

I've been around only about a year on Mudcat and have to admit I often involve myself in 'parish pump' discussions. It hasn't occurred to me before, but I really hope our transatlantic friends don't feel excluded because of them. I for one would love to hear more about just what goes on in the US. For one thing, when I have visited I have found it really hard to get any information about traditional music, other than large concerts like the Millenium Stage in Washing or NY's Madison Square Gardens or Carnegie Hall.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:56 PM

I think all of us Brit performers over 50(not a few of us on Mudcat!) will all have cut our teeth on American folksongs to start with(via skiffle). So there's plenty of us who do talk about American songs and singers when anyone starts a thread.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:52 PM

I am one, perhaps one of a very few, whose musical tastes include traditional and roots-based music from nearly every part of the world. The fact that I don't start threads outside of my own experience doesn't mean I don't look forward to learning.

I confess I don't really think this should be the place performers keep their fans up to date on their performing schedules. Perhaps we could have a special page with links to performers' own websites where news of their coming gigs could be found. Song circles, jams and hootennanies should also be listed on a special page rather than in threads.

Still, this is the first place I know of to hold a world wide song circle and I remember thinking back those many years ago that it was a very cool thing.

The Web has other boards where discussion is limited to particular musical idioms and traditions but this is the only one that welcomes discussion of everything.

I disagree with Susan about the east-to-west direction of traditional influence. British and Celtic performers have included American traditions in their musics as well as African, Mid-East, and Asian influences. The same thing happens here in the US.

I, for one, really appreciate the idea that people from all over the world see The Mudcat Café as a place where their music and traditions can be discussed. I'm just as anxious to learn as I am to share. Sure, not that many people, worldwide, want to discuss bluegrass, blues, or Kentucky thumbpicking but that's also true if the discussion were limited to Americans. The music I love most just isn't that popular. Maybe that's one reason I love it.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:45 PM

I have been on Mudcat only about 3 years, and I say it has certainly gone more British in this time. You used to get more Rick Fielding, Art Thieme etc, more blues. more discussion of guitar picking and stuff. Presumably that will swing back, there are more Americans around than British. It's just they seem more keen on talking about Iraq and Bush than Doc Watson, but presumably that is only a momentary obsession.
   The previous point, that Britain is smaller, is also I'm sure important. people are using Mudcat as a way of talking with each other, everyone being a part of an entity you might call the "Brirish folk scene". So people do chat on all the time about "Seee you in Hull on Thurs" or "who's going to nantwich" or whatever.That sets up a lot of background noise on Mudcat, it's not really musical discussion, but it sort of looks like it. I am only reinforcing what McGrath of Harlow has said here, which is what I normally do: agree with McGrath, but do it more longwindedly!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

Don't think it's an argument, geeze, it's just a thing someone is wondering about, is all.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

What determines the content of the threads, and the type of music discussed in them, is the individual choice of people posting. There is no kind of Mudcat policy involved.

I think there are probably far more Mudcatters in the USA and Canada than there are elsewhere, so it's strange if the music threads don't currently seem to reflect that.

Even if freightdawg is correct in surmising that the folk scene in America is less active, and that it might be skewed towards being listeners rather than participants and I think there's a question mark against whether that is true), I'd have thought that would just mean a different type of thread.

However I'm by no means sure that the imbalance actually exists - maybe someone should do a census of the threads. True enough, there's a batch of threads about English folk festivals at this time of year - but I suspect that this reflects the fact that this is a relatively small country, so that at a pinch any of us might get along to any festival, and hence they are all of common interest. From an American perspective, they are all local festivals.

But the rest of the music threads look as if there's a pretty sizeable American presence, and I have the impression that there is no shortage of American started threads. Before arguing too much about why something is the case, it's worth checking out that it actually is the case.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:17 PM

People don't start threads, for starters. We've lost or misplaced a few of the ones who used to discuss this - Rick, Sandy, Art, Jerry, Frank. If they're still around, they don't post much. There don't seem to be that many questions asked, and people who have the answers aren't always good at starting threads. Kendall probably knows a bunch of stuff. Many of the more recent threads have turned into debates instead of the sharing of knowledge or stories that would have been nice.

Start a thread or two, and see what happens. Maybe folks will want to talk.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM

Hard to say, but I think you're right. I think maybe this is something to do with our societies - and the folk music phenomena in them.

A lot of people in the English folk scene, for various reasons, feel discriminated against and disenfranchised. People that you would assume to be respectable musicians making a decent living in a more meritocratic society like America, live lives of quiet desperation. A place like mudcat is somewhere for them to let off steam - to mainly like minded people, who see the issues as clearly as they do themselves.

When Peter Bellamy died I remember listening to Martin Carthy's obituary piece on the radio, and he spoke of the isolation that this particular pursuit of music imposed.

So when we get here - we're a mouthy lot. Sorry about that!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:04 PM

Well, the antidote would be for us Americans to post more stuff about "our" music -- right! You're from Chicago, aren't you, MG? So you should know the drill: Vote early and vote often!

Seriously, though, I've noticed the same thing. I first stumbled across Mudcat years ago, when the DT had first been moved here from Xerx PARC-- at that time, this was a prediminantly blues-oriented site, with mostly American participants. Over the years, I would peek in very occasionally, before joining up about two years ago. There's been a steady growth of "overseas" participation; not just the British, but Irish and Aussies and various others -- even an Icelander!

From what I've been able to observe and deduce, the Brits are closer to each other geographically than the Americans, they seem to have more clubs and events in which to participate, and more of them find ways to meet in "real life." The result is that they've become a tighter-knit group, in general. So be it, and more power to 'em.

I think that if you disregard the purely personal messages and the announcements of various events in the UK (festivals, club nights, etc.), the number of *musical* posts about US vs UK folk music is closer to equal.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Chris Green
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:03 PM

Speaking as an English-based catter I'd actually like to learn a bit more about folk music from the far side of the pond as it's something I know bugger all about! Anyone give me some clues as to what I should be listening to?

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: freightdawg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:57 PM

From what I have read, it is probably because the British "folk" scene is far more active at the grass roots level. Maybe its cultural, maybe it is because American folkies just haven't found the Mudcat, but it just seems to me that there are far more opportunities for just plain folks to get together and play or sing on the other side of the pond. I am amazed at reading about the number of places where aspiring musicians can play over there. Maybe its because of where I live, but I just don't see the same opportunities over here.

Americans, it would seem, are more interested in being entertained, rather than actually going out and finding that entertainment in playing music with others. Of course, I could be ridiculously wrong. Maybe Americans get together in each others' homes more often where others cannot see or hear what is going on. Or maybe it is done in the churches. But it just seems, using this forum as the measuring stick, that the folk music scene in England is just more active.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:50 PM

I disagree, I think it swings back and forth. I'm not sure the daily thread list is an accurate measure.

I will say this, though. Folk with UK roots is certainly an ancestor of US folk musics, but the reverse is not so true. So it makes sense that even the USers would work on material of that source (UK), and keep renewing its acquaintance.

~Susan

Subject: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:46 PM

It seems that this folk music forum is heavily weighted towards the British folk scene as opposed to the American folk music scene.

I am just interested in why that is so.

The topics deal more with British related folk topics, though not exclsively. Yes, we do see Pete Seeger threads and Woody guthrie threads, but really very little about American folk music and it's off shoots, bluegrass and traditional country music.

Just throwing this out for discussion.