BS: New poll shows Bush trailing

Subject: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:52 AM

Who would you most like to see win the U.S. presidential election in November?

George W. Bush   3912 votes   (11 %)
John Kerry      11285 votes   (31 %)
Ralph Nader    21583 votes   (59 %)

Total Votes: 36780

Okay, so it's just a poll of Globe and Mail online readers (the G&M being the Toronto-based newspaper that thinks it is Canada's foremost national news source - usually considered fairly conservative).

Nevertheless interesting that these opinions in Canada are so out of synch with those in the US. What would the results be of a similar poll in other countries?

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 12:29 PM

I think someone was playing a game with this poll -- because it was an online poll, it might have been hacked. Nader? No way.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 02:10 PM

Since it does not appear to be a scientific poll, all that Canadian poll boils down to is a "popular" opinion poll. No surprise there. If Canadian Mudcats are an indication of Bush's popularity there, it comes as no surprise that this straw poll showed Kerry coming out ahead.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 03:00 PM

Sure they weren't voting for the next doll in the Presidential Talking/Dress Up series that Millard Fillmore is currently winning?

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:52 PM

DougR - Kerry ahead? Last time I checked, 21583>11285. but you might want to consult Rush or Sean to make sure I'm not a librul liar.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:14 PM

Bush is as popular in Canada as a crabs infestation in a prison. He has so thoroughly made USA hated initials that Uriah Stephen Anderson changed his name--he was the only one left in Canada with those initials, and now they are gone.

Bush has done more to harm the USA than anyone in your history, Doug. When are you going to become a thinking patriot and recognize that. I used to think of you as a loyal American, one who supported his country, and much as I have disagreed with you, I was able to respect that. I can't respect you tripping over yourself to defend the stupidest president your country has ever had. If you love America, get him out of office. He is dirt, and it does your country no honour to have him lead it. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:23 PM

Sorry. Dirt wasn't the correct word. Shite is what I was looking for.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:47 AM

How could you not support such a compassionate man?

Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.

George W. Bush   September 6 2004

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:10 AM

After reading that, Jack, it'll be a real sonuvabitch not to support him. Compassionate for sure, just like his friend Cheney. But truthfully, I'd rather have crabs than vote for the equivocating, obfuscating fellow who was--in the parlance reserved for polite company--begat on a duchess by a head waiter.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:31 AM

Well, if you'll forgive a long post, there are bits of information coming out now that should convince even DougR that the president of his country and the administration he heads are both evil. Sorry, Doug, but I find there is just too much evidence now to deny it any longer.

Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked

By FRANK DAVIES

[e-mail]

WASHINGTON - Two of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers had a support network in the United States that included agents of the Saudi government, and the Bush administration and FBI blocked a congressional investigation into that relationship, Sen. Bob Graham wrote in a book to be released Tuesday.

The discovery of the financial backing of the two hijackers ''would draw a direct line between the terrorists and the government of Saudi Arabia, and trigger an attempted coverup by the Bush administration,'' the Florida Democrat wrote.

And in Graham's book, Intelligence Matters, obtained by The Herald Saturday, he makes clear that some details of that financial support from Saudi Arabia were in the 27 pages of the congressional inquiry's final report that were blocked from release by the administration, despite the pleas of leaders of both parties on the House and Senate intelligence committees.

Graham also revealed that Gen. Tommy Franks told him on Feb. 19, 2002, just four months after the invasion of Afghanistan, that many important resources -- including the Predator drone aircraft crucial to the search for Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda leaders -- were being shifted to prepare for a war against Iraq.

Graham recalled this conversation at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa with Franks, then head of Central Command, who was ``looking troubled'':

``Senator, we are not engaged in a war in Afghanistan.''

''Excuse me?'' I asked.

''Military and intelligence personnel are being redeployed to prepare for an action in Iraq,'' he continued.

Graham concluded: 'Gen. Franks' mission -- which, as a good soldier, he was loyally carrying out -- was being downgraded from a war to a manhunt.''

Graham, who was chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee from June 2001 through the buildup to the Iraq war, voted against the war resolution in October 2002 because he saw Iraq as a diversion that would hinder the fight against al Qaeda terrorism.

He oversaw the Sept. 11 investigation on Capitol Hill with Rep. Porter Goss, nominated last month to be the next CIA director. According to Graham, the FBI and the White House blocked efforts to investigate the extent of official Saudi connections to two hijackers.

Graham wrote that the staff of the congressional inquiry concluded that two Saudis in the San Diego area, Omar al-Bayoumi and Osama Bassan, who gave significant financial support to two hijackers, were working for the Saudi government.

Al-Bayoumi received a monthly allowance from a contractor for Saudi Civil Aviation that jumped from $465 to $3,700 in March 2000, after he helped Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhdar -- two of the Sept. 11 hijackers -- find apartments and make contacts in San Diego, just before they began pilot training.

When the staff tried to conduct interviews in that investigation, and with an FBI informant, Abdussattar Shaikh, who also helped the eventual hijackers, they were blocked by the FBI and the administration, Graham wrote.

The administration and CIA also insisted that the details about the Saudi support network that benefited two hijackers be left out of the final congressional report, Graham complained.

Bush had concluded that ''a nation-state that had aided the terrorists should not be held publicly to account,'' Graham wrote. ``It was as if the president's loyalty lay more with Saudi Arabia than with America's safety.''

snip;

On Iraq, Graham said the administration and CIA consistently overplayed its estimates of Saddam Hussein's threat in its public statements and declassified reports, while its secret reports contained warnings that the intelligence on weapons of mass destruction was not conclusive.


snip;

He reserves his harshest criticism for Bush.

Graham found the president had ''an unforgivable level of intellectual -- and even common sense -- indifference'' toward analyzing the comparative threats posed by Iraq and al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

When the weapons were not found, one year after the invasion of Iraq, Bush attended a black-tie dinner in Washington, Graham recalled. Bush gave a humorous speech with slides, showing him looking under White House furniture and joking, ``Nope, no WMDs there.''

Graham wrote: ``It was one of the most offensive things I have witnessed. Having recently attended the funeral of an American soldier killed in Iraq, who left behind a young wife and two preschool-age children, I found nothing funny about a deceitful justification for war.''   

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/9584265.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:35 AM

And more:

Bank with close ties to Bush administration engulfed in scandal
By Joseph Kay
24 August 2004
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author

The Justice Department announced on Friday that it is launching a criminal investigation into Riggs Bank. In recent months, the Washington-based bank has become engulfed in a scandal related to charges of money-laundering, corruption and terrorist financing.

Riggs, which touts itself as "the most important bank in the most important city in the world," has been known for decades as the bank of the Washington elite, including politicians, foreign ambassadors and the wealthy. It has held presidential accounts stretching back to the time of the Civil War, and is a prominent fixture in the political and social establishment of the nation's capital.

Or rather, it was a prominent fixture. In July, PNL Financial Services agreed to buy Riggs for $779 million. The sale will become final by early next year.

The bank's prominent embassy and international operations will be shut down in an attempt to bury a scandal that has the potential of becoming much larger. That an institution like Riggs could so quickly disintegrate is an indication of the extent of the corruption that has overtaken American finance and government.

There are three separate activities for which Riggs has come under investigation: (1) its relationship with the Saudi royal family and the potential financing of two of the September 11 hijackers through an account owned by the wife of the Saudi ambassador; (2) its relationship with the corrupt and dictatorial regime of the oil-rich West African country of Equatorial Guinea; and (3) its banking business with the former military dictator of Chile, Augusto Pinochet.


The Saudi accounts

The public revelations concerning the bank's relationship with Saudi Arabia came mainly through the publication of a Newsweek article on December 2, 2002 ("The Saudi Money Trail"). The news magazine reported that in January 2000, two of the hijackers who were on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon—Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar—received monetary aid and other assistance from Omar al-Bayoumi.

Alhazmi and Almihdhar are at the center of suspicions of US government complicity in the 9/11 attacks—and for good reason. The CIA had identified the two as early as January 2000 as Al Qaeda operatives, and the Washington Post reported in June 2002 that the FBI also knew of the two from January of 2000. Yet they were allowed to enter the US and live openly in San Diego for 18 months prior to the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. Newsweek reported in September 2002 that the roommate of Alhazmi and Almihdhar in San Diego was an FBI informant.

More at site

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:46 AM

Maybe Nader should run for office in Canada.   Most Candians I talk to have very low reragd for their political officials- Mike Harris was hated.   Nobody even knew Earie Eeves last name.   Critien and Martin- not exactly Pierre Trudeau like.   Let's not even mention Conrad Black.   Only a few years ago Quebec came within inches of separating from the rest of the country.

I say Nader has a far better shot in Canada.   His agenda is perfect for Canada.   The 3% of votes he got in American would probably be enough to win in Canada.    He could write a new book- "unsafe at any country"

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:53 AM

peedeecee, thanks for the links and excerpts! I HOPE more and more of the public will hear about these and consider them when voting!

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM

LOL!

That's a good tactic, Larry. If someone posts something that makes your man look bad, make fun of Canada!

hahahahaha...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:36 PM

And the 1000th soldier has now died in Iraq; in fact, there are more than 1000 American soldier fatalities. I'm sure the media will ignore or spin it, but damn, I hope not. When Repubs start sending their own children to Iraq, I'll believe a lot more of what they say.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:59 PM

Some of you folks are hilarious! You present what you consider as "evidence" that Bush is a bad leader based on books written by Bush bashers and expect those of us who are thinking clearly to accept it as proof! Geeze.

Suppose I were to offer "evidence" that I gained from Rush Limbaugh as proof that YOU are wrong? The laughter would probably shut down the Mudcat for a spell!

Better get use to it, Bush is in the White House for four more years!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:04 PM

I didn't know Canadians got to vote for the US President.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:29 PM

Doug, Doug, Doug,

Bush will be out on November 3, 2004. Calling a sheep a dog will NOT make it bark.


Larry, Larry, Larry,

Canadians have a basic mistrust and distrust of ALL politicians. Honest in this country means that you skim 5%--no more, no less.

Now, let's consider Enron . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

Doug

What is your logic here? Anyone who criticizes Bush is a Bush Basher and thus has no credibility?

Most of those who criticize Bush do do because the criticism is deserved. Most of those who criticize Kerry do so to take the focus off Bush's faults.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:59 PM

GROK:

just a small point- Bush will remain in office until Jan. 20th, 2005 regardless of the election results- that is the way it works.

And calling Bush a loser does not make him one- THAT will take votes.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:11 PM

Canadians have good reason to distrust politicians. Every party we ever elect betrays us or fails us, every time. And we have more than 2 parties to choose from here! They ALL betray us. The problem IS the political parties. They are basically funded by banks and major corporations, not by the ordinary citizen...so who do you think they represent when making policy? Banks and major corporations, that's who! (Same as in the USA.)

I wish we could vote for Bush or Kerry. If so, Bush would definitely lose in November. He is not popular in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:17 PM

Beardedbruce:

You are so right, and I am aware of that (the Jan 20/05 date).

However, I didn't call him a loser on this thread I don't think. I called him dirt, shite and a few other things, but loser wasn't one of those things. You are reading between the lines. However, as to your remark about votes--yeah, I think Kerry will garner what he needs to beat Bush at the ballot box, and before you tell me, I know there are more than a single ballot box.

Regards,

GROK

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:47 PM

Jack: I don't know where you studied logic, but would guess based on your last post that you didn't pay close attention.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:01 PM

Doug

Stop bashing your head on the table when someone bashes Bush. It is preventing you from "thinking clearly"

For instance if you want to discredit someone else's argument you have to do more than calling him a "Bush Basher". As am matter of fact what you call "Bush Bashing" most people would simply call "speaking the truth."

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:20 PM

DougR - there is a difference between showing "evidence" and "bashing". Limbaugh is a basher. Michael Moore presents evidence. While there are many that are questioning Moore, most are attacking HIM, not the facts that he shows. Moore shows evidence that ties the Bush family to the Saudi royal family.   His father simply says "it isn't true", but the evidence that Moore presented is not questioned by conservatives.   When you can't beat the arguement, you attack the person making the statement. It is clear that is what Cheeney and Miller did in their speeches last week.

While I doubt you read Al Franken's book, you can see where he shows Limbaugh to lie. Franken shows evidence, Limbaugh makes things up.   Read the books.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:38 PM

I wish I could get inside the heads of many Bush 'supporters'...I can't imagine that most of them like and trust Bush...what they like is Republican politics and conservative values, and they will cover their eyes and tolerate the charade of 'supporting' Bush in order to keep Republicans, as a party, in power.

It may not be a bet I can win, but I'd bet that they can think of 27 guys they'd rather have lead their party. I, as a Democrat, could list a few Republicans that I would trust, even if I didn't agree with them. Bush (and Cheney and Rove and Rumsfeld etc..are NOT on my list)

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:38 PM

Ron: I do understand your urging me to read anti-Bush books. Okay, so you object to the word "bashing" so I won't use it. Instead, I will use the word distort. There are NO credible ties between the Bush family and Saudi Royalty. I know, you, as a true believer in the liberal philosophy, will probably refer me to another book designed to discredit Bush to prove your point. But my point is that on credible book exists on the subject.

I'll swear, I really fear for the publishing business when the election is over. However will they recover from the lack of publishable titles when books critical of Bush are not marketable?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM

DougR - So you won't believe anything unless Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly tells it you?

Distort? That is what the Swift Boat group did to Kerry, right? Of course your conservative philosophy makes it so. You disregard anything that is put in front of you that doesn't agree with your right-wing views.

There is no proof that George H. was paid by the Carlyle group?   How about "Flip-Flop" George W, first denying he even knew James Bath, then admitting he knew him, then saying he had no idea that Bath was investing Saudi money in Arbusto, George's first company, and then later admitting that he knew. The fact that this money was coming from Osama's brother may or may not mean something to you.

Sure, unless you hear it on Fox or from Rush, you consider it to be "liberal" propaganda. The fact that Moore shows documents in his film is something you want to ignore.

I guess with a closed mind you don't have to worry about much.   If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck - it is probably a chickenhawk.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:07 AM

Well, Doug R.---atleast you have the nous to recognise the same merit level of Rush Limbaugh that most of us do----

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:53 AM

A brandnew poll is in:

68 % prefer Kerry, 22 are undecided, 4 % prefer Bush, 6 % don't know about the election.

That's a representative poll from Germany (coming in today). As you may have guessed from these results, the preference for Kelly is about equally distributed among the left (red/green) camp and the conservative opposition.

In Britain, 52 % would vote for Kerry, 29 % for Bush, the rest being undecided. The interesting thing in Britain is that dislike for Bush is stronger among British conservatives (Tories) than among Labour voters.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:56 AM

I think that most Republicans -- and I use the term in its traditional sense of normal conservatives -- are flinching and holding their noses as they vote for Bush.

Political reality calls for the Republican Party as it is now -- a party of extreme rightwing, neocon fundamentalists -- to rename itself, become a third party in the US, and allow the name Republican to revert to those moderate, centrist-but-conservative, decent people who used to be represented by the term "Republican."

As far as a new name for the neocon party, I suggest "Whackos."

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:03 PM

Michael Moore was just repeating the accusation.

There is lots and lots of evidence tying the Bush's to the Saudis. Its been a point of pride for both the Bush's and the Saudis. The only question is whether anything underhanded wen down.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: DougR
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 01:43 AM

That's funny Wolfgang. I would be the first to concede that if the American president in this year's election was to be elected by voters in Germany, France, and Great Britain, Kerry would win in a landslide.

Fortunately, such is not the case.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:54 AM

I never would have mentioned France, Doug, for I know that mentioning a French preference for Kerry could damage that candidate in the USA. I do not want that, for I'm this time with the German majority.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 12:44 AM

This argument is going nowhere.

Doug likes Bush.

The rest of you don't.

The reasons he likes him (tough talking good ol'boy who kicks ass) is the same reason you other lot hate him (corrupt cowardly draft dodger who sends other peoples kids to fight wars).

its just a question of emphasis. I suspect the facts we have available to us will bear both interpretations.

I'm not really sure the truth always surfaces at a later date either - look at the Vietnam, still a subject for debate. As an English person though - I'm damn glad we weren't in that one. and I'm none too sure about our involvement in the present unpleasantness.

I do sort of hope that Doug is at least partially right and Bush isn't a complete crook.( that's pretty much all you can realistically hope for of any politician) I don't like to think of our soldiers dying for nothing very much.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:27 AM

WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM


You are ignoring the SRS rule, established in past political threads.

1. Any source that does not agree with the poster's preconceived notions, or which presents facts that the poster does not want to discuss, is invalid.

2.Anyone not accepting the poster's stated opinion as absolute fact is to be attacked in any way possible.

Corollary: Only those facts that support the poster's viewpoint are to be permitted in any thread.


Please note that this applies to ALL sides. Except, of course, to anyone disagreeing with the poster...

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM

"Except, of course, to anyone disagreeing with the poster... " bb

I disagree with you, bb.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:37 PM

Then YOU can't use the SRS rule...

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:50 PM

Like I said. ?:~)

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 01:29 PM

And I agree with both, but only on dates ending in a prime number.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM

04 is never prime... so you will agree with neither until next year?

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 01:55 PM

Nope. I will agree with BOTH until next year.

Subject: RE: BS: New poll shows Bush trailing
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 10:10 AM

refresh