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BS: Bad teacher
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Subject: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:35 PM What can you do about it? I'm a former high school teacher, and I know a little about how to make a formal, effective complaint on that level...but what do you do about an incompetent, abusive (mentally and emotionally) jerk who gets his kicks intimidating college freshmen? This is a pet peeve of mine. No one, especially a teacher, has the right to control another person. Rationalizations that "I'm doing it for their own good, to make them think, to stand up and fight/argue..." just don't wash. It's been my experience in life that these people are just bullies and won't admit it. (also weak in the critical thinking area...help, Bill) ;-) I'm being purposely vague, but suffice it to say that a college professor has turned a writing class into a class to defend one's beliefs, no emphasis on critical thinking, just do what I say do and if you disagree, then fight. In the meantime, if you want to pass, you better conform and participate in my classroom chants, etc. College freshmen are not organized enough to fight back, and their parents don't want to interfere. This kind of nonsense couldn't be put over on older students. Any advice on how to fight it, considering that time for other classes is more important at this point? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peg Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:14 PM wow---this is a problem that is non-existent where I teach. Kids are so apt to complain to the administration, or to write scathing eveluations, or even get their parents involved, when they perceive faculty are not bending over backwards for them. Spoiled brats some of them. They have figured out they somehow deserve something for all the money they spend on tuition, and think they desrve a good grade just for showing up, and don't seem to understand that they are there in order to challenge themselves which sometimes means failure. This guy may well be helping his students discover how to speak up for themselves but if he is truly abusive he won't last long in the current acadmeic climate. Freshman often welcome this kind of challenge--I did, as I recall.The teacher a lot of people wrote off as an asshole became a true mentor and friend to me but not before he pissed me off a few times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:32 PM I'm familiar with complaining to the administration and scathing evaluations -- but another pet peeve of mine -- these are often only for future classes, they don't really help the first kid. And unfortunately, a college freshman in a rigorous major doesn't have the luxury of time. When my son was in high school, he was consistently humiliated by a teacher. When I complained "using channels," the response was, "We've had several complaints, why don't you make a formal complaint because numbers count." I really hate that idea (and politicians use it a lot) to act on the NUMBER of complaints rather than doing what's right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peace Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:52 PM Precisely who has decided all this stuff about the teacher? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:01 PM irrelevant at this point in time. I'm interested only as an advocate for the student. It will all be settled in the future, but a first semester student can't afford a misstep. My only question is, "What can be done NOW?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peace Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:08 PM Is the whole class having the problem or just the one student? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Bobert Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:24 PM WP..... (Withdraw passing...) Then turn in the complaint... And if you've paid for the class by credit hours, ask to be compensated or credited toward a future class... And get yer (opps, your) kid to ask around to find a more compatable instructor... I had a similar problem my freshman year. Because of a case of mono I was about 10 days late beginning classes. I noticed one cute gal in my English 101 Comp class and asked her out right aftre that 1st class. She said yes. Hey, how was I to know that the professor had all ready not only asked her out but had 3 or 4 dates with her?!?!?... Bobert's first and only F in college. Bad idea.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: artbrooks Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:35 PM Freshman classes tend to be taught by TAs (Teaching Assistants), who tend to have no idea how to teach and that they might be doing something inappropriate. By all means, put a wire on the kid and get some of the instructor's behavior on tape. Many colleges have an ombudsman program to deal with issues "informally." There is also the option of a meeting with the department chair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:40 PM If the CHILD can present a convincing written argument. Fire the teacher.
If the CHILD cannot present a convincing argument.
If the CHILD believes their university to be unfair.
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:43 PM Recording in MOST university classrooms, is prohibited without the consent of the instructor.
Follow Mr. Brooks adivce, and the CHILD ... could be up for expulsion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:50 PM bobert, that was my first idea. art, that was my second idea. But that's as far as I got. How do you find the ombudsman at an out-of-state university that a first semester freshman and their parents aren't familiar with? I guess the student just has to "learn the ropes" fast -- I know my kids did -- and I'm so proud of them for their solutions to all the crap/bureaucracies they navigated -- some of the stories are hilarious. (it helps to have a big brother, even two, at the same school) But back to this one, there is so little time for a misstep. As far as meeting with the department chair -- I know from my kids' experiences that they begged me not to get involved as it would just make things worse for them. It's a difficult judgement call sometimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM Perhaps, the "kid" CHILD has an inner desire to FAIL .... because "ADULTS" are controling their life.
Leave the CHILD alone - stop enabling - let the CHILD make their own mistakes and fight their own battles.
The administration knows the good from the bad, but it appears this CHILD deserves to fail, nothing can sour a university counselor (towards a student's "problem") quicker than adults playing "advocate."
LET GO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Bill D Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:26 PM in a college class, there should be recourse thru the department if it is truly offensive. I have seen one or two guys who liked to intimidate and belittle, but if more than ONE student makes a formal complaint, the department head ought to have a 'chat' with the teacher. There Is a difference between 'tough' and 'bullying' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peace Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:45 PM A student I know once refused to argue the pro-abortion position in a paper because she did not believe in abortion. (She was fairly religious and quite committed to a pro-life view of things. NB, it is NOT my intent to open this can of worms here!) She was more than willing to argue the pro-life position. The essay requirements included argument from BOTH sides. She made a choice and argued only one side. She failed the paper with a 40-ish percent. The instructor (possibly a TA) marked the paper but could not award 'extrapolated' marks for the half that wasn't there. She was informed of the way things would be BEFORE she wrote the paper. That was what she decided to do. Sometimes decisions of conscience cost. I have always admired her for her for that. She didn't complain about the mark. She passed the course by doing excellently on her other papers and final exam. Sometimes people can be less than just. However, if students don't deal with it, they won't learn to deal with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: katlaughing Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:51 AM There might be some pertinent paragraphs in the following, Mary. Colorado passed a law about this last year, apparently, when it comes to one's beliefs, religion, etc. Probably doesn't help right NOW unless the state they are in has a similar law: Colo. Officials Fault Free Speech Policy (AP) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Liz the Squeak Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:33 AM For God's sake speak up!!!! If there is a genuine bully here, then you MUST speak up. I'm still recovering (3 years after the events) from the treatment of a bully at work. A bully who is allowed to continue just gets the message that they are justified in their behaviour and continue to do so. One day the damage they cause may be permanent. I know it sounds like I'm hysterical, but I'm speaking from experience. (In my case, the stress aggravated a genetic condition which should not have been a problem for another 20 years. 3 years of tests, examinations, 2 operations and a lot of time off work). Once one person has the guts to make a formal complaint then others quite often follow. There is more support in a group. As long as you stick together and do not allow the bully to divide and conquer. You may end up in all sorts of stressful situations, you may risk losing your job, but if you've made the life of only one person better, then surely it's worth doing. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:09 AM brucies's student there was just muddled in her thinking. If you can't present the arguments for a way of thinking you are fighting against, you are going to seriously handcapped in trying to fight against it effectively. Presenting a case is just not the same as advocating that case. Actually I get the impression from a lot of the arguments on the Mudcat that this is a way of thinking which is quite prevalent in some parts of the world. That could explain a lot of things. ............... As for this particular issue - "College freshmen are not organized enough to fight back!" . That's surely why unions exist, so that people don't have to be on their own when making a complaint. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:13 AM Liz, that divide and conquer idea is one of the problems. A professor can count on freshmen not being organized enough to band together and fight. But I was encouraged to learn that they stuck together on one point. It seems that part of their grade is determined by class vote. They came up with a plan to equalize the votes! But my life experiences have shown that it's very hard to maintain unified resistance among a group of strangers. kat, there may be some laws being violated, I really don't have enough facts. I do know that it should be against the law that a student should have to participate in religious activities (invoke the spirits of their ancestors) in order to get a grade. brucie, I tutored a young honors engineering student last year. He had an F in English Composition because he just couldn't understand why he wasn't fulfilling the requirements of a compare and contrast essay. ;-) After some individual guidance, he ended up with one of only two A's in the class! My other thought (when I should have been sleeping) was to contact various student professional organizations on campus, or possibly an advisor in the student's major in order to have an advocate, a friendly helper. This is hard for a shy freshman to do, and I still worry about the time involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peg Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:01 AM here's my question at this point--what is your source of information for this teacher's behavior? The student who feels victimized? Is there more than one student complaining about this teacher? I can understand this student may indeed feel the teacher is "out to get him" but there does need to be some perspective applied when only one person is feeling victimized. I had one such student who thought I was treating him unfairly, (his behavior in the classroom was appalling BTW) who lodged a complaint and continued to send me harassing emails even when the department head concluded I wasn't doing anything inappropriate and that the student was grossly overreacting. The student ended up basically stalking me and refusing to leave my office when I told him to get out (I had to threaten to call security), and to this day continues to badmouth me to other students who later tell me (confused, because they think I am a good teacher)that this guy tried to get them to drop my classes etc. Never underestimate what one person is capable of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peace Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:15 AM McG of H. The kid wasn't all that muddled in her thinking. She made a decision--I too think it wasn't the correct one, because thinking demands you argue both sides of an equation--and live with it. That isn't being all that muddled. Also, she wasn't my student. She was a student I knew when I was in university. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peg Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:20 AM Mary, I am also curious about the "invoking spirits of ancestors" being defined as a religious activity...how did the instructor conduct this exercise? Was it a written assignment? You mentioned "chanting"--is that what this was referring to? Everyone has ancestors--and writing instructors frequently ask students to write about their past or their families or a traumatic event in their lives or their ethnic heritage--so without more information the context of this is hard to gauge. I'm not sure what is "religious" about this but if the teacher is in fact seeking to engage students in some sort of ritual not pertinent to the course description, and if this is making students uncomfortable, then this is a problem. But sometimes these sorts of activities are used in classes where dymnamics are being explored--like acting, or communications. I occasionally employ somewhat experimental methods in my creative writing classes...fortunately I am in little danger of offending anyone's religous sensibilities because of the campus climate where I am currently employed--but I have been called a "godless heathen" by at least one student at another school before.... I think before we can help we need more information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM My information is 3rd hand from the perspective of the student I'm interested in. But the fact that the class has at least managed to devise a plan to make choices to equalize votes tells me that there is some resistance to the teacher's methods, and this involves more than one student. I seriously doubt that it is unanimous because that's very hard to do. I don't doubt the facts I've been told: 1. the teacher stated that the students' lives would be miserable, that this one class would consume all their time. 2. the students would teach the class. 3. the first 15 minutes of each class is a chant to invoke the spirits of the student's ancestors. 4. comments were made in private alluding to philosophy and how do we know what is real -- to me this belongs in a philosophy class, not a writing class. Sounds like an amateur philosopher wannabe. But that's just my opinion. 5. other provocative statements were made in class, probably as a cheap trick to shock the students. I don't know if these attacks were individualized though. But I really feel it's irrelevant whether one student is "victimized" or that there are "numbers." It's been my observation (high school teacher who bullied students) that the traditional bully picks on one at a time and uses the ole divide and conquer technique. Only documentation over time can yield numbers of complaints. Most young people are so glad the attention is not on them, that they don't rock the boat and resist the teacher. (I was so proud of my son when he stood up for a girl being humiliated, distracted the bully into humiliating him instead...much like the Billy Crystal character in the movie City Slickers.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Peg Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:58 AM Thanks for the info, Mary but I'm still not clear on the exact situation or problem. Writing is all about ideas, so philosophy has a place in that discussion, as does religion, history, art, music, and countless other topics. Writing is thinking about thinking--so speculation should be encouraged. It does sound like this teacher has some unorthodox methods, and perhaps a healthy does of ego, but I can't see any abuse here so far...not without more specific information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:54 PM We found, when our 3 left the nest, that the best support we could offer them when they ran into a new set of real world realities, was to ask, "What do you think you should do?" Then we listened-- and gosh! it was so hard to just listen. Sometimes they asked for information about how the System works-- and we gave information, as cooly as possible. Sometimes they were much smarter about the realities they faced, than we were, and gave US information. Very often, they ended up doing stuff FAR more astute and effective than whatever they SAID they wanted to do-- the point had been that they had been engaged in thinking while someone respected thier thinking-- their ability to do it as well as the thoughts they came up with. This engagement tended to carry over past the listening and would continue as they vented/thought/vented/thought. Don't understimate the power of simply believing in someone, or the ability of young people to make lemonade out of lemons. Maybe your most powerful action to limit the harm this person can do will occur AFTER your young one has moved on to the next challenge-- when your action can be perceived as agenda-less concern. In the meantime, it never hurts to document everything... :~) And.... do they allow visitors to audit a class session? :~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 11 Sep 04 - 01:47 PM The chants were 15 minutes of American Indian chants asking for the spirits of the students' grandparents to be present in the classroom. I prefer not to give any more specifics publicly other than this is a large Midwest university not in Kentucky. I think the teacher has "attacked" various stereotypes, no individuals that I'm aware of, knowing full well that the barbs were finding targets in this population. (he publicly ridiculed, not discussed, beliefs he assumed were held by a number of students). This is what set off my "bully" sensor. This thread has helped me clarify my thinking, but really hasn't given me any new ideas as to how the problem can be solved in a timely, effective manner. I think one of the underlying fears is that the student will put in an excessive amount of time, not learn anything new about writing, and get a low grade which will really spoil future career plans. The student had an exceptional high school career and is a motivated learner. I'm all for the study of ideas - afterall that was the curriculum of my honor's college coloquium which took the place of two years of English. But I had the cream-of-the-crop teachers in the English Department and small classes with individual attention. This situation that I'm concerned about sounds like a poor imitation. One thing I learned in Gifted Education Curriculum -- students really go for the fluff (I don't mean unimportant, just heady stuff, exciting ideas) -- but they don't want to lay the groundwork with good ole logic and critical thinking. I know college students should be treated differently than high school or even younger students, but I feel that a teacher has a responsibility to encourage and nurture, not break down, discourage and make cynical. I encountered too many cynical people in the chemistry department - weed 'em out, etc. OK. Rant over. I'll see what happens next week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 11 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM Hey Sooz, we cross posted. You probably hit the nail on the head. My maternal "Mama Tiger" instincts are kicking in -- and I'm really too old for this! My kids have surprised me with how astute they are at fighting the system. And back when I was wanting to fight all their battles and I thought they were complacent, they really were taking notes and ended up surpassing even me in their resolve to stand up for what they believe in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:12 PM [smoochies] I think one of the underlying fears is that the student will put in an excessive amount of time, not learn anything new about writing, and get a low grade which will really spoil future career plans. The student had an exceptional high school career and is a motivated learner. From our own experience-- sometimes sad, bad-strategy/bad-result experience-- the thing is, what you describe IS a real danger. The GOOD news (from experience) is it's easily solved!!! Far more easily than one might suspect. It is far, far easier to encourage positive behavior than to extinguish unproductive behavior, especially with folks flexing tender new wings. If you ask relaxed questions about goals, and how they are prioritizing their time to meet those goals, you may find that you can see a powerful effect emerging.... that by putting positive listening-style attention on the Good Stuff, and investing less energy in the Bad Stuff (your concerns)-- presto! The plant grows in the direction of the sun, unless you have a shade-loving fern there . :~) Fight the GOOD fight. Those wins stick. If not in the short-term, very much in the long term. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Scoville Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:11 PM Guest needs not to jump to conclusions. But yeah, complain to a higher-up. Other kids have probably had problems before. I never ran into that at college but a friend of mine rubbed a professor the wrong way and nearly failed. Students were required to participate in class discussions when called upon by the professor; the professor never called on my friend and then tried to flunk her for not participating (answers given out of turn were ignored so just speaking up would have gotten her a reprimand). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:27 PM I ran into a prof that continued to address students in an inappropriate manner. I disliked his class immensely but needed the credit so I endured. One day he said to a Chinese student, "I'd like to take you away for a week-end but your father wouldn't like that, would he?" He also used her as his personal secretary. Everyone in the class was uncomfortable (especially the Chinese student). I finally sought the advice of another prof. She was astounded and urged me to speak to the dean. Heads rolled but he was not dismissed. He figured out it was me who had snitched on him and confronted me in class. When I denied any part in it, he accused me of being self righteous. Other male profs scorned me and made thinly veiled comments. In spite of them I made the Dean's list and kept my self esteem intact. My advice - Do what you know is right. Suffer the consequences if you must but whatever you do - hold you head high. At least you will be able to live with yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST,Russ Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:00 AM If the teacher did indeed announce that "the students' lives would be miserable, that this one class would consume all their time" there was only one rational response: Head for the nearest exit. If you gotta know when to walk away and know when to run then I think this situation definitely called for running. Only a masochist would've shown up for the next class after that announcement. Even if he instructor, the department, the college, and the university need serious negative feedback about this instructor's approach, let somebody else do it. Trying to get something done will waste time, physical, and psychic energy that the freshman should be putting to better use in more "normal" classes. There is indeed a time to fight battles such. First semester of a freshman year is not that time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:19 PM Any properly organised educational establishment would have some mechanism set up intended to meet this sort of situation, there to to provide support guidance and if need be advocacy for students, so that it wasn't just a vulnerable individual on their own. And on top of that, in any work situation - and being at college is a work situation - everybody needs to find a union to provide some back-up when they need it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: jonm Date: 13 Sep 04 - 03:34 AM From the viewpoint of an academic faculty head, UK: The student needs to put their grievance in writing. This will: a) formalise the paper trail of evidence for the grievance, b) crystallise the key point of the issue for the student, and c) show that they are serious in pursuing the grievance. Once passed to me, the letter remains confidential between the two of us. I would then interview the student and investigate the matter, making no promises: I observe every member of staff and every student cohort once per term; I would ensure that I observed that member of staff with that student group at the earliest possible opportunity as part of the routine programme. I take one whole-class tutorial with every cohort per term. I would ensure that also occurred as rapidly as practicable and I would raise a general question on staff conduct, and see what response I get, both from the students and the particular individual. Based on the evidence gathered: a) the student may be a sensitive soul and they alone have had their sensibilities offended - speak to the member of staff, using my observation as my reason, and invite them to temper their manner. b) the member of staff is attempting an approach which is not appropriate for a significant minority of the class, but which is nonetheless not an incorrect or unprofessional one - speak to them, using both the observation and tutorial as evidence, and formalise my "advice" to them. c) the member of staff is being unprofessional and/or offensive. Take immediate disciplinary action. This is the only circumstance where the student's letter might enter the public domain, and then only late on in disciplinary proceedings. d) no evidence to suggest any conduct problem whatsoever with member of staff (i.e. not even anything which might offend a sensitive soul) - explain to student that I can find no evidence to support their complaint. They have the option of approaching the Vice Principal at this stage. e) evidence of a malicious prosecution of the member of staff - discuss with the student in the strongest terms and advise the member of staff, naming no names. If the student were to come to me with a tape recording made without staff permission, they would be subject to disciplinary action themselves. Please note that the nuts and bolts of the process would not be explained to the student in advance, I would want to collect unsolicited opinions and not those of students who may have been primed or influenced to give certain views. I cannot comment on the process across the pond, only that given the litigious culture, I cannot imagine it would be much different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST,SueB Date: 13 Sep 04 - 04:03 AM Another approach would be to accept that some of your college professors are going to suck, and you'll probably have to suffer through your share of them. As a non-traditional student - I returned to school in my mid-twenties to complete my undergraduate degree - I was better able to tell the good ones from the bad than I had been the first time around. First time freshmen are at a disadvantage, because they usually don't have a way to find out whose classes to sign up for and who to avoid at all costs, and because they have higher expectations. If the kid can grit his teeth and make the best of it, and get everything he can from it in SPITE of the prof, he will have had a learning experience of a sort, if not the ideal one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:14 AM Here is what I would like to know...when do we stop being kids or children. It would seem that a college freshman should behave as an adult and deal with life's problems as such. I fear that we are parenting for far too long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 13 Sep 04 - 10:41 AM Thanks Russ, you said it better than I did. Trying to get something done will waste time, physical, and psychic energy that the freshman should be putting to better use in more "normal" classes. There is indeed a time to fight battles such. First semester of a freshman year is not that time. I'm sensitive to this because I know that very few students get through college in 4 years. One nephew essentially lost 2 years because of bad advising and missing prerequisites. This is very hard on parents and students who have to foot the bill, and the psychic toll is immeasurable. My understanding is that this student was told verbally after review of the first written assignment (grade of 77, though the student was anticipating a higher grade) that there was no way he/she could get an A in the class. And thanks jonm for your thoughtful reply. Those were the answers to my original question. They helped me clarify my own thinking, and reinforced my opinion that written complaints are the most effective way to go -- if there is time! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: jonm Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:43 PM May I suggest that it is never a waste of time and energy to write a letter of complaint. Most complaints procedures do not require much input from the complainant (student) other than the letter and an interview. The dinosaur lumbers on from there on its own. If you don't complain, then the wear and tear on your self-esteem will never get better and you are condemning the next year of students to the same cr@ppy experience. Most educational establishments really care about their students and the quality of their experience, but are plagued with a minority of staff who do not. How can you change that without student feedback? Some colleges just don't give a damn. If that's the case, you need to be elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Jim Dixon Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:46 PM Some of you might appreciate the kind of problem I described in another thread: BS: Authoritarianism in daily life. It also concerns the humane treatment of students at a university. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST,Russ Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:56 PM Mary, You are welcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 14 Sep 04 - 12:11 AM Well, as of today, my worst fears are confirmed. I simply can't say anything more specific publicly - sorry - but this situation is "known" officially at this university. The student I'm concerned about is just a target because of his/her major. Also, he/she will probably stick it out, so the best help I can give is support - the first being a topic to write about. Any suggestions welcome. There is little guidance in the classroom, the sky is the limit, but I feel it should be something the teacher knows nothing about! The handout I saw stressed documentation other than easy to obtain sources, and it specifically stated that the student should have an interest in it. I had several ideas, but I'm curious about other general guidelines or maybe points of departure for ideas. I'm familiar with Synectics (creativity exercises), combatting writer's block, brainstorming...and of course I know the student. Don't let me down Catters. PM's welcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:09 AM Refresh just in case there are some suggestions. I have a couple but not much help yet, just sarcastic one-liners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM What's a sarcastic bin-liner? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: M.Ted Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:28 PM Mary--this is not your problem to deal with--it is the problem of the student--no parents, or friends and relations of parents should be intervening in "freshman" anything--time for intervening is long gone--part of what you learn, especially in a big University, is how to deal with situations that may be unfair, unfriendly, or just cold and impersonal-- You have someone who did well in high school, and who is suddenly got a lower grade than expected--and suddenly the instructor is an ogre--well, if that it true, why be surprised? At a large, public university, the top faculty are not fighting over who gets to teach freshman writing classes--and 5-10,000 other freshman have figured out how to get around the fact that the instructor is bitter, underpaid, and (in more cases than you would believe) was hired to teach the class three days before the beginning of the term, and get on with their lives-- Maybe this instructor hates you, and grades accordingly--there will be others who like you, and grade accordingly--as far as I know, freshman writing grades don't follow you to the grave-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: RichM Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:51 PM refresh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: M.Ted Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:37 PM To Mary's student friend: I made my living, such as it was, for many years, by writing things for people--I can assure you that no instructor is ever as demanding as a paying client-- My first suggestion is, no matter what you are writing about, no matter who it is for, try to find some aspect of the subject that is exciting to you--then write about that--because the writer has to care about the subject before the reader will-- As a practical suggestion--when you have a choice--choose a topic to work with that you can use in another class, you may not be able to simply turn in a copy, but more than likely, you can write a second draft with a slightly different focus that will make everyone happy--( and if it relates to your major you can use the research as a basis for future work)---- One last thing that you must never forget--Write for your reader!-- Your writing can only be effective if you engage the interests of your reader--For instance, your topic is "WHY INSTRUCTORS SHOULD NEVER USE CHANTING IN WRITING CLASSES" I guarantee that you that it will immediately grab your reader's attention-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:46 PM I just got an email from the student - and I should quit worrying! He/she found a writing lab on campus and a tutor is giving some good feedback on writing style, etc. The professor's reputation is well-known, so there are lots of people who know how to get through the class (though I'm still concerned that there is a perception among other professors that he dislikes a particular major - too bad for students who get in the crossfire). WYSIWYG, I need to have a little more faith in my young friend to find creative ways of dealing with this. M.Ted, your advice about finding a topic interesting to the student is precisely what the course handout stated. I just hope the student can brainstorm and find topics that will satisfy that requirement AND will be obscure enough that the professor won't be influenced by the opinions - just the ability to explain and defend beliefs. And you're right - Freshman English grades don't follow you to the grave - BUT...gradepoint is important when applying to professional school and graduate studies. A little guidance during the first semester can prevent costly mistakes. (Buddist chants now...I wonder if they will recite the Rosary, the Apostle's Creed, the Serenity Prayer, or pledge some flag. This seems very disrespectful to me, regardless of whose beliefs you're imitating.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: LadyJean Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:14 AM Many years ago I was a journalism student at Ohio University. Dr. Roger Bennet was an excellent teacher of journalism as was Dr. Guido Stempl. The rest of the faculty had either failed as journalists, or found teaching less demanding. There was a teaching assistant, who sat down next to a friend of mine. When someone told him that she was a journalism major he said, "All women journalists are bull dykes". There just isn't any way to excuse that. Then there was Dr. Evarts, I'm certain she's gone to that great copydesk in the sky, so I can use her name. Dr. Evarts was a little more than eccentric. She liked mannish, white women. They did well in her classes. Men, Blacks, and women who maybe wore a skirt to class now and then didn't have a chance. She taught Communications Law, which we were all required to take. She assigned a paper. No problem there. But she took off a letter grade for EVERY CORRECTED TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR. This was in the late 70s, before there was such a thing as a personal computer. I don't know what we were supposed to learn from that. A friend whose parents were on the faculty had known the lady for many years. I always liked her description, "On Halloween she goes uptown dressed as herself!" Dr. Evarts was tenured. We had no recourse against her private brand of insanity. Some people shouldn't be in positions of authority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:27 AM Valuable lessons learned within this thread: WIZZY over-reacts and has abnormal "fondness" for her "protege's." LaddyJ - never made it as a journalist.
Sincerely,
given the sources a typical MC tempest in a.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:16 PM Where to begin addressing the concerns in this thread? There's a lot of rather silly stuff intermingled with the serious. 1. If the class stinks, just drop it. There is a cut-off in the term when you can't drop without earning a failing grade. Don't wait until then. Take it again from someone else. 2. If the instructor is a teaching assistant, and is on an ego trip, the student can speak to the professor in charge of the teaching assistants. Articulate the problem clearly, that let the supervisor (yes, just like in a regular job, TAs have supervisors) straighten things out. 3. If the professor is tenured, then it is more difficult, but go back to the advice in #1. Drop the class and take it again later. There are some old farts out there who have been teaching forever and most students figure out who they are and avoid them. There are people on power trips. Note: There are also professors who don't suffer fools gladly, and if this student has an enlarged idea of what he is entitled to in class, he's gonna have problems. 4. Universities are bending over backwards these days to retain as many freshmen as possible. If they can make it through the first year (even the first semester) they're on their way to staying the course. A bad first semester or two can lose those students, so schools will work to avoid it. If the student is a mature person with a legitimate and documentable complaint, talking first to the department chair, and if that doesn't help, talking to an appropriate Dean of Instruction, should get some action. Many universities have an attorney on staff to counsel students regarding legal issues. If there is a civil rights problem, the attorney is there to answer questions and provide sound advice. 5. Check into FIGs (Freshmen Interest Groups) on that campus. They are a trend in student retention, putting students with similar interests together, whether in a residental situation, or simply as a regular study group and they take all of their classes together. 6. Recording in MOST university classrooms, is prohibited without the consent of the instructor. I don't know where unnamed guest got that cock-eyed idea. It is a long-standing tradition for students to tape lectures or class discussions when they think they need that kind of backup. 7. Here is an article from the Chronicle of Higher Education about picking professors, called "Picking Apart Pick-A-Prof Does the popular online service help students find good professors, or just easy A's?" As it happens, this interview was done at UTA where I work and I know almost all of the professors interviewed. Their reasoning is sound, and I think UTA voted to drop the Pick-A-Prof program this year. But they tried it for a while and the school where the original tempest in this thread is brewing may have something like this in place. There are links to various professor-grade-tracking services at the end of the article. As a graduate student I took a look at the service and found the student rankings of professors re: professionalism, scholarly reputation, and material covered to be arbitrary and capricious, but those looking for easy grades alone may find it useful. 8. The student will have to attempt to solve this problem on his own at first. Dropping the class might make life a lot easier, and filing a complaint might get more of the money returned. Being a parent/guardian called in as a reinforcement can backfire--be sure you're not being set up by an unfledged college student (there is a period of adjustment regarding what expections exist of college students vs. high school students) before you go in with six-guns blazing. There are many philosophies out there regarding the teaching of Freshmen English. When I took the graduate teaching assistant course (thinking that I might move into teaching) it was clear that the choice of materials could be quite varied, beyond a basic text that the department chose for everyone to use, but the instructors were there to teach writing, not to sway students to their causes. Some still try to wield more influence than they should; semester end reviews identify and weed out those problems if nothing else does. Here is a Google search that should give you more information about what those programs are about. The key word to this search is "pedagogy." SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:15 PM "that cock-eyed idea" of which guest spoke, is actually fact. Consent does have to be given for lessons to be recorded. Perhaps students are unaware of that. But it doesn't make it cock eyed. 99 per cent of teaching staff would give consent. Courtesy is free. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:25 PM It's your word against mine, "Guests," and having spent many years as a student and now working in an academic world, I can say confidently that it's considered acceptable and appropriate. If you pay to sit in the class, whether you record the lecture by hand on paper or by recording or both, it's your privilege. It may be a courtesy to the lecturer to let them know that you're taping, but it isn't necessary. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST Date: 17 Sep 04 - 09:22 PM SRS - what country are you working in? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Sep 04 - 10:22 PM I was going to ask you that. The U.S. Where various methods of access in a learning situation includes recording, sign language interpreters, and other "accomodation" offerings. Recording is an old practice here (I remember as a kid, around 1968-70, getting my mother's old tapes of classes after she got her MSW--I was able to reuse them for recording music.) It's now no doubt part of the Americans with Disabilities plan. Sorry to call you a crackpot if you're in another part of the world where they're not so open about this. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: LadyJean Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM There was a basketball player in my class, who taped all his lectures. I think he had problems reading and writing. For the record Gargoyle, I've had a somewhat undistinguished writing career, but I do publish. One of the gents of the faculty used to tell us how much easier life was as a tenured professor, with long breaks between quarters, instead of being a full time journalist, who could get fired if he messed up, and had to go to work on the Friday after Thanksgiving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: HuwG Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:54 AM I have no idea what the strict legal position in the UK is, but logic would suggest that there is no actual bar to recording a lecture, providing that the purpose was to keep a permanent record of what was said for revision or subsequent research, not to provide ammunition for some sort of complaint. However, most of the lecturers I remember wouldn't have had great careers as recording artists. Some of them stammered, some droned, many mumbled, or addressed their notes rather than the students. A lot of them rambled and went off at odd tangents. Now, make the recording quality very poor through lecture theatres with bad acoustics. Throw in nearby students fidgeting, rustling papers, exchanging private jokes and vague noises off. (I did most of my academic work in an Applied Science Faculty; one could usually guarantee that a nearby rolling mill, generator, hydraulic press, wind tunnel or something similar would fire up halfway through any talk). One way or another, a tape recording might not be an ideal way to keep a record. (On the other hand, how often did I try and revise by looking through lecture notes which read something like, "Cald. str NE/SW overlie orig. Dalr. base Anderson pp 243-260 An old University joke I remember: Definition of a lecture; a process by which information is copied from the notepad of the lecturer to the notepads of the students, without being retained in the brains of either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Sep 04 - 02:44 PM HuwG, I have had occasion when I wished I had a tape recorder, and others when I've taped on particularly difficult topics, and it was helpful. Then there are the occasions when everything goes right and you get a gem of a lecture, one way or the other, and it is an important record. I was in a grad school philosophy class several years ago, and we'd been reading a variety of texts that took us through a series of world views, and then one evening the professor decided to tie it all together with a lecture instead of our usual class discussion. My handwriting is usually pretty sloppy, but I was more coordinated than usual and I got most of it down in clear notes. I also had the good sense to transcribe it as soon as I got home, so I could include additional material I remembered but had only made obscure references to (like your note above). In the long run I was actually able to cite that lecture in papers, because of making those notes. On tape it would have been a classic. This professor is one of those much-published folks who years from now will likely be the subject of biographical works. A lecture like this would then become a perfect example of the quality of his lectures, as recorded by a student. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bad teacher From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:21 PM One of my responsibilities when I was an adjunct professor in the chemistry department at a large university was to transcribe the lecture notes - my boss was writing a textbook and used his lecture notes for a rough draft of a freshman chemistry textbook. I taped each lecture, then transcribed the words verbatim. I didn't realize how organized and lucid his lectures were until I did this. We also had students taping the lectures - but it seemed terribly time consuming for a student who should be spending time studying. |
