BS: An open letter to Bush supporters

Subject: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 04:26 AM

So... I'm confused. I truly seek to understand what it is that you folks see in GWB's approach to the the US Presidency... Call me dense, but I just don't get it. The US has been brutally attacked by Al Qiada, and we find ourselves over our heads in a war with a nation that has no direct ties to Al Qiada. We all gave our support because we were told of an impending and life threatening threat of immediate imminence.

This has proved to be untrue... Are we expected to just 'go along' with a war that has little or no credibility in the foundations of it's undertaking?

When the US was attacked on 9/11, this country was deserving of simpathy and support from the world community at large... and a towering majority of the world's peoples were inflamed and outraged. The vast majority of the world's people were by our side with condolences and all of us are in need of solutions to the very real threat of terrorism as the brutality of random violence knows no national boundaries...

Where are all these people now? Why have we let their heartfelt support turn to distrust and appathy?

Amidst all of our nationalistic pride and flag waving, there is an unsettling insecurity across this nation that has little to do with terrorism... but more to do with making ends meet financially. The effect is to make foes out of potential friends, and it triggers animosity between people with small differences of opinion... the same differences of opinion that once led to the spirited debate that has kept democracy healthy.

Why are we not engaged in overhauling our stagnant economy? There is so much to be done to improve our industrial capacity and our job security, and yet it feels like we're sitting on our hands and balking generally about... Why is it so hard to talk about all sides of the issues?

And on top of all this, GWB seems to be constantly on vacation, with a hands off approach to the job he was elected to do... namely, to safeguard the welfare of the people of the United States...

Do you believe that GWB is doing the best possible work that a person could reasonably be expected to do? If these are intense and trying times for men's souls, why is GWB burning so little midnight oil over it?

And what is he doing to bring us together... and keep us together?
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:37 AM

refresh.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:55 AM

The question is - are we fighting a war on Al Queda or are we fighing a war on terror?   If we are only fight Al Queda- than we should not have gone into Iraq- there were ties to Al Queda, but minimal.   Mostly an on again off again relationship.

If we are fighting a war on terror- can we win the war by merely removing the taliban and capturing Al Queda?   I contend that we can't.    We must also destroy Hamas, Hezbolah, Islamic Jihad, and the other terrorist group.   We must also find a way to bring peace between Israel and the rest of the middle east.   We will never win the war on terror without all of this happening.

Therefore, countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lybia, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Packastan and others must be addressed.   (Save North Korea for another thread)   We can argue on which country should have been first.   I contend that strategically, putting democracies in Iraq and Packastan surrounds Iran and hopefully will lead to an internal takeover.   The majority of the people in Iran are opposed to the leadership.   Maybe this is too optomistic.    Putting prsssure by surround this country may expedite this change.

Lybia has seen the light and turned over their WMD's.   Any way you spin that, it is a victory for civilization.    Musharif has also seen the light and has stopped the rogue WMD's and is more involved in fighting terrorism.   That is a partial victory.   Maybe Putin will also see the light after the past tragegy.

The bottom line- the entire middle east needs to be reformed. If not, there will always be terrorism and tragedy.   Thinking we could drop a few bombs on an aspirin factory and be done with it makes us feel good, but doesn't accomplish anything.   60% -70% of Al Queda leaders have been captured or killed.   Over 40 of the 52 most wanted in Iraq have been captured or killed.   Knowing all that I know now, I still think removal of Sadam was a good thing and that Iraq has a better chance for the future than before.

That is why I support Bush.   You may disagree.   Let me know your plan on how we end terrorism.   As far as the rest of the world goes- what did it do to remove Milosevich- nothing. Even though he was in Europes back yard.   What did the world do in Cabodia when 2 million were killed. Nothing.   What did they du in Rowand when 800,000 were killed. Nothing.   What did they do in Iraq when 300,000 innocents were killed. Nothing.   What are they currently doing in Sudan where thousands are being killed right now. NOTHING.   If Americal left it to the rest of the world, the rest of the world would be speaking German.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM

Larry K: the country with the most weapons of mass destruction, that has used them the oftenest, is the USA. While the US government has coonvinced much of its electorate that it has done so for good and moral reasons (spreading democracy, etc.) much of the rest of the world -- and some of the US electorate as well -- know that that is a lie.

The US itself represents terror to the rest of the world, no matter what rationalizations it offers for its actions.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:08 PM

LarryK

As I said in some other thread, terrorism is not an army or a nation, it's a tactic. Declaring war on a tactic is silly. Like lying. Lying is a tactic. Should we stop lying by killing all the liars? Could we?

Mr Bush said an admirable thing recently -- that the war on terrorism can't be won, that what we can do is try to eliminate the climate in which terrorism grows. (I can't recall the exact words) But for some reason he was hushed up by the other boys in his club, and I believe criticised by John Kerry.

It's too bad. That was a flash of sanity. And the only time I have fully supported GWB.

"The bottom line- the entire middle east needs to be reformed. If not, there will always be terrorism and tragedy"

Somebody check me on this, but I believe most terrorist attacks within the US have been committed by Americans. T. Mc Veigh, the Unabomber, the anthrax shipper. I would hate to see my end of Idaho bombed for "harboring" the Aryan Nations and I don't believe it would be productive.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:27 PM

I think the greatest terrorist acts in history have been perpetrated by white folks, Larry -- the Crusades, the Inquisition, medieval tortures of various sorts. Not to say that other kinds of culture or race haven't produced equally gruesome practices. Why would you buy the idea that terrorism is primarily a product of the Middle East? Certainly the 9-11 bombings, the earlier Towers bomb, the Cole explosion and a number of others were. But I would say in the long perspective it is probably par for the course. There was a time when Americans had the moral fiber not to resort to that sort of tactic.

But I doubt there are many Iraqis who are not terrified of the Americans, for example. In a few cases this might even be a good thing, but I do not think in most. When Mister Bush undertook to invade the home turf, and begin the killing of large numbers of Iraqis, he unleashed a chain of very nasty dominos indeed, with no chocolates and roses involved anyuwhere along the line. In addition he made a large precedent for unleashing insanity in the public domain. Not a good precedent.





A

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:40 PM

How about because Kerry reminds many of us as Herman Munster and won't be able to do anything to make this a better country.

How about you just shut-up and vote for whoever you want?

Your priveledge, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM

How about you learn some manners, you uppity young whippersnapper?

A

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM

I love being called young.

I save my manners for the dinner table.

and for leaving toilet seats down for women.

John Kerry's best campaign would be a Munster's marathon on TVLand.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

Kerry me, back to Alabam
Sarah's home made jam

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:56 PM

Munster Found In Legendary Lake

Loch Ness, Great Britain - Seven years after his death, actor, Fred Gwynn has been spotted in Loch Ness. According to witnesses, he was dressed as Herman Munster.

"Me and my wife were just walking along the shore and there he is, Herman Munster, doing laps like he's training for the Olympics or something," said Mike Dale.

Dale and his wife were on vacation on the country-sized islands when they decided to check out the legendary lake. "We had heard of Nessie the Loch Ness Monster but we never though we'd see a Munster."

Loch Ness is famous for it's sea monster sightings but never before has there been a TV character sighting.

"This is the first I've heard of it," says local Loch Ness historian, Peter Spencer. "It's hard to believe, actually. I mean, why would Fred Gwynn be training for the Olympics in Loch Ness? I'm sure he can afford a gym." Apparently, there have been numerous sightings in and around local gyms.

"I saw him lifting weights at Blimey's the other day," said John Wimbel. "I couldn't tell how much he was lifting, but he was definitely training hard." Stephen Shire claims that he had an encounter with the Munster.

"The thing spotted me while I was bench pressing." Apparently, it vanished when Stephen asked for an anal probe. Adults aren't the only ones seeing the Munster train. A few kids have seen him running through the local park and one child saw him in his closet wearing nothing but a jock strap.

According to the 2000 Olympics Director, Kerry Matley, there was a Fred Gwynn listed to compete in the pole vault event but it is not certain if it is the same person who played Herman Munster on the popular TV show.

"I can only give out certain information about the entrants but I can say that this year will be an interesting year for the Olympics," says Matley. Fred Gwynn has acted in numerous movies and TV shows as well as The Munsters. Although, no one has spotted a Francis Muldoon anywhere, there have been reports of an irritated cousin named Vinny trying to explain the term "youts" to a familiar looking judge.

Contributed By: Nathan Smart

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 10:41 PM

;^) Pdq, LOL...

And then, to complicate matters, Alfred E. Neuman, with his cheezy grin... (was it munster?, I muttered) ...sat colorful and quiet on the magazine racks offering a two for one sale on the past issues... only meaninglessly rifled through... with the complete assurance of his trademark "What, Me Care?" echoing though the bountifully congested market streets subdued as they were by the insipid twinkle in his uncomprehending gaze.

"Are you Mad?", I asked nonchalantly, as I thumbed through his advertizing slogans... unaware of the growing crowd... and as I turned around slowly, I could see them all mouthing in unison the parodies they had learned from the pages of his undertaking... neo-conspicuous nonsense under a flagging conscience willingly shared...

But when I grew weary of the mimicry of symetry, I returned to the pages of promotions... looking once again for the add in the copy of Mad, where Alfred E. Neuman was making sense.

'nuff said... and now, back to our regularly schedualled broadcast...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 11:06 PM

Well, ttr, not that I have any fondness for Mr Kerry, but I also wonder just what thefascination is with Bush and his neocons. Just about where ever you look they lie openly to the American people but it's like the American people just don't care..

One thing that is for certain, however, is that Bush has one message for white people "Just do it!"... Don't worry about nuthin'. We'll cut yer taxes, let you consume as much as you want, drive what you want, own any gun that you want, and we won't let no intellectual liberals take your stuff and give it to nobody...

Hey, sounds great. Especially if yer white and gotta a decent job. And if yer white and don't have a decent job, hey, those intellectuals won't be burnin' yer flag or forcing yer son to marry a queer...

See, very simple. The feel good party for white folks...

The Dems, however, are all doom and gloom. They want you to think about tough issues. Screw that. Thinkin' is waste of time and cuts into comsumption time...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,tarheel
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 11:41 PM

well folks,it's because kerry will break-up the military funds and bring the boys home and then we can shoot spit balls at the terrorist!
as kerry said today,"ill teach the terrorist to obey the laws of our country!"...omg,can you believe that? terrorist obeying the laws of our country?...geeezzz,they dont obey the laws of their own country let alone really have any idea about being civilized!kerry is the typlical bleeding heart liberal!"let's have a war,but let's don't hurt anyone!"...god help us all!

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 03:21 AM

"If America left it to the rest of the World, the rest of the world would be speaking German" . The final sentence of Larry k.'s posting. All that was readable prior to that was a load of utter balderdash, and I risk the wrath of many a decent American when I say that the stuff presented is typical of the crap which is heaped upon the heads of the US public by neo-con propagandists , and which is unfortunately swallowed by those who are sadly susceptible. That is unfortunately something which cannot be changed; there will always be those who can be led by the nose. This final sentence, however, is a direct insult to all of us who were involved in the fight against Nazism. It should be pointed out to Larry k. and all who are similarly mentally challenged that millions were dead in both world wars before America at last took up arms. My father's two brothers were dead on the Green Fields of France YEARS before the first American unit set foot in Europe. And the second big fight began in 1939; not at the time of Pearl Harbour. Just for the record, Germany declared war on the USA --not the other way round. Don't get me wrong; we were damn' glad to welcome the Yanks into the fray---and the lads fought well. But Larry----you were LATE--and there's no denying that. Finally, it should be pointed out to all the red-white-and-blue flag-wavers--on both sides of the Atlantic--that the people who made the greatest sacrifice, and did MOST to smash the Nazis, were the Russians. Try looking at history ==real history, Larry---you will learn a lot if you can open your mind!

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 12:10 PM

No, no, Boab, these folks minds is made up an' there's nuthin', absolutely nuthin' that can change them. They are the "true believers" and the current day brownshirt brigade. Throw them a lie and they'll parrot it without a second thought. "Thought?" That's where the problem lies (pun intended). Ain't none. Just waitin' on the next bumper sticker length position paper on any issue...

I love the assualt weapon one where the gun nuts are spreading their little joke: How can you identify an assault weapon?

Answer" It's black!

hahahahahahahaha...........

Very cute. Fits on a bumper sticker and is another noecon lie... Ask your neighborhood cop how he feels with these banned weapons in the hands of every criminal or terrorist.

(Prediction: Some "true believer" will either be a cop or have a neighbor who is a cop and will post as if that person's opinion represents a cross section of cops. I guarentee that this is going to happen because this brownshirt brigade is very vigilent...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: UncleToad
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:35 PM

bush and his cronies are losing the war in Iraq. City after city are falling into the hands of the insurgents and locals. Does anybody in their right mind really think that the US is wanted or needed in Iraq.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

Question: Do you think bush would let his daughters or other family members enlist in the military and go to Iraq?

Question: How many US deaths will it take to appease bush and his band of warmongers...is there a magic "cutoff" point?

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:37 AM

To quote an Arab leader- "While it is true that not all Muslims are terrorists, it is also true that the vast majority of recent terror acts were by muslims"   (as close as I can remember the quote)

Now a history lesson.   There is no question that white people performed numerous terrorist acts such as the Crusdades.   Technology was such in those times that Arabs in the middle east were only able to kill each other in numerous wars.    Today techology has given them the ability to kill others around the world.

There have been a small number of terrorist acts by non muslems- such as the Oklahoma city bombing.   These are small, and do not present the threat to the world as radical islam.   The vast majority of terrorism in the past 20 years has been from radical islam.

I know many people fought in WW II.   The bottom line is that the allies would have lost WW II if the USA had not entered in it. (sorry- the truth is the truth) Yes we were late.   The same pacifists that say we should not have gone into Iraq were saying the same thing about Germany 65 years ago.   I am glad that many of us "yanks" did not listen to Chamberlain and others who allowed Hitler to come into power.

Hitler ran for chancellor of Germany.   The race ended in a tie and had a run off election.   Hitler lost the election.   Very soon after wards, they decided to appoint him chancellor because they thought they "could contain him" better.   (as per Holocaust Memorial museum in Washington DC)   Today, democrats say we should not have gone into Iraq because we could have "contained" Sadaam.    It is nice to know that in 65 years, Democrats have not learned anything.   (and you think that I am "brain dead"- thats very funny)

PS:   At the beginning of WW II the USA was only the 9th largest economy in the world.   Today we account for over 40% of the World's GNP and 50% of thw world's research. (Time Magazine) How did that happen?   It wasn't through socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:51 AM

Hi Larry K:
I appreciate you giving details on your views, there are a lot here who just throw garbage at each other... so let me try and answer a few of your questions...
Frist, what would you do if not go to war to reform the middle east...
Much of our history in the middle east revolves around the control of oil, starting with England tricking Eisenhour into supporting British Petrolum in overthrowing the democratic progressive government of Iran, putting in place the Shaw. His violent oppression led to a Shite rebelion, and we bolstered up the Suni Sadam Husain as a balence, at the cost of millions of lives. We did this, as we wanted to be assured we could be a player in the oil ecconomy. Today the US is concerned with keeping China from getting, oil, in much the same way the USSR wanted that oil to go north instead of east, so their intrest in Afganistan, was over it's place as the site of the main oil pipe line. We backed Ossama Ben Lauden, in order to take control of that pipe line in Afganistan. Even today we are conspireing with Moslem fundimentalists, such as the dictator of Banladesh, who is allowing the murder of minorities in her nation while the US supports her. What would I do?
I would encourage the formation of an Asian and a Third World common market, so that those who are poor as a result of the US controling 70% of the world's natural resourses would have ecconomic competition as a hope rather than terror. Such a common market, with India, China and Japan as it's industrial base, whould so stableize the world, that most people in the US would benifit by a peace dividend. Of course Dick Chenney and Haliburton would be in a bad way, as they profit from the death of American soldiers in a big way.
It is true that Lybia has made great strides for peace and stability, however this is a direct result of the chosen son of Kadaffi being killed in an accident, and his younger, reluctant brother becoming the successor. Before the present war in the Gulf he was talking about coming into the world's ecconomy by a new peace with the west.
I must remind you that most of the WMDs used in the middle east were either supplied by the US or other industrial powers, we gave Saddam the gas he used on the Kurds, and the US looked the other way when he used it. I was among the few protesting this while the American right wing didn't give a fig for the Kurds.
It is very easy to destablize regions, but you can't reform through war. You can reform by encouraging and aiding new ecconomies, rather than making war to destablize thouse ecconomies. Paul Wolkawitz was calling for the war long before 9/11. This in fact, has been a war on our rights as American citizens... The Patriot Act had been drafted long before 9/11 by the neo cons, and was ready to go at the first provocation. These lost rights, the attacks on the branches of govenment which disperse power, the courts and congress, in favor of a strong man president, the only branch of power with a pyramid of power from one man down (the reason the founders wanted perfect ballence, as tyrants can ONLY come out of the executive branch)... have made it more possible for the corporate cronnies of the republican party to dictate the nation's ecconomy while we in the middle class pay the price.
Today, there are "courts" in Guantonomo with the power to exicute, where the judges, prosicutors and defence attournies are the same soldiers who captured those who are being "tried". Only one individual in those courts, one of the judges, has ever been to law school. This should rase the rightious indignation of freedom loving Americans, who call themselves patriot. Read what it says over your courthouse door, "the administration of justice is the cornerstone of good government." In fact the republicans have made war on American justice, from attacks on the civil bar to these kangaroo courts in Cuba.
Finally, the Republicans constantly trumpet that Freedom is not Free, and that the price is blood. In fact, the price is uncertainty. The definition of facism, is the attempt to make a society without ambiguity, without decsent, using fear to empower a strongman government. The fact is, the world IS dangerous, but life is. We need to be courageous enough to not be ruled by our fears and help create a world based in cooperation and good government. I with ONE party in the US would propose just that.
Pease and best wishes,
Larry Otway

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:53 PM

actually world war 2 was primarily a war between russia and germany
ussr was already rolling the germans back with the turning point being in stalingrad in 42. the bloodiest battle of the bloodiest war in history.
the us did prevent half of europe from having to speak russian, Ill grant that.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM

good point larry, of course we know he had wmds - we had the receipts!

btw there's still kids being born in Vietnam with various deformities
no arms legs, etc. thanks to agent orange.
I'd say that ranks as chemical warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:12 PM

George Bush and Dick Cheney wake up every morning with their fingers crossed, hoping the American people will ignore their miserable record, forget their trail of failures, and fear the future. But with your help, we are going to make sure that the American people see through their bluster and posturing, and see what a mess they have made.

Please make a contribution to the Democratic Party today:

https://www.democrats.org/support/kerry.html?dsc=NETA563

George Bush and Dick Cheney have lost over a million jobs, made our health care crisis worse, and turned record budget surpluses into record deficits. They misled America into war, failed to plan for the peace, and are running up a $200 billion bill at the expense of America's middle class taxpayers.

And now they are acting like they are doing us a favor by standing for re-election. They even have the gall to tell the American people how risky it would be if we turned them out of office.

The biggest risk to America's future is four more years of Bush-Cheney's incompetence, misinformation, and ill intent.

(From a Democratic Campaign Mailing)


A

Subject: RE: BS: An open letter to Bush supporters
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:35 PM

Larry - If you want to "end terrorism" you will also have to put a stop to the aggressive military tactics of major powers such as: the USA, Russia, Great Britain, and Israel. They also commit what is most certainly terrorism, in my opinion...as it is an attempt to terrorize another party into abject surrender through the application of organized violence and killing. So add the USA, the UK, Russia, and Israel to your already extensive list.

You can't whitewash this sort of thing and say: "It's just the guys on the other side who are terrorists." It doesn't work that way. To the civilians on the ground who are at the receiving end of a Russian, American, Israeli, or British bombing raid, the terrorists are those national powers...and they have far more destructive capability than Al Queda or the other outfits you mentioned.

Terrorism springs out of unresolved disputes and gross inequality in the World. The only thing that can stop it is peacemaking and resolving people's differences in a constructive manner.

Killing "all the terrorists" is not a feasible solution. For each one you kill you have created several more angry people who will soon replace him or her.

And we would NOT "all be speaking German" had they won WWII.... (sigh) Are the East Germans presently all speaking Russian? Are the Japanese all speaking English? People say this kind of stuff because it sounds dramatic, not because there's much real truth in it. The French lost a continental war in North America in the 1700's, and their descendants in Canada are STILL speaking french as their first language to this day.

And as petr else pointed out...it was Russia that broke the back of the German army in WWII. The Western Allies helped drive the nails into the casket, although I will say this...the Western Allies won the Battle of the Atlantic...and that was absolutely crucial to defeating Germany. There were two other key turning points in that war: in front of Moscow in late '41, at Stalingrad in late '42. After Stalingrad the war was lost for Germany, because the initiative was lost to them...irrevocably. When you are outnumbered in a war, greatly outnumbered, you can only win by maintaining the iniative at all times and advancing rapidly. The Germans could not do that any more after Stalingrad.

So if you really think that someone has saved you from speaking German (grin)...thank Joe Stalin for that! Or thank General Zuikov.