Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit

Subject: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 11:52 AM

Effective immediately -- no time for good-byes -- WDET-FM in Detroit has canceled its wonderful Saturday folk and bluegrass programs: Matt Watroba's "Folks Like Us" and Larry McDaniel's "The Arkansas Traveler." Watroba's been on the air for about 20 years, McDaniel for 25 or more. They're being replaced by general music programming, which is what the station offers every other damned day of the week. What a loss.
'Catters who want to complain should log on to www.wdetfm.org and search for appropriate phone numbers or e-mail addresses.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:55 PM

Wow. 2 weeks ago on my way to Detroit to visit my wife's family, I stumbled upon this show on the car radio and absolutely loved it. Heard old Roy Acuff, Stanley Bros., Jim & Jesse.

What a shame.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:40 PM

I am in shock. I have met Matt on several occasions and he is brilliant. His knowledge of folk music is vast. I never met Larry, but I have only heard good things about him. I hope some station in Detroit will have the intelligence to pick them both up.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Art Thieme...
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:42 PM

Damn, I'm so sorry to hear this! Matt's show was a great one--and one of the few left on public radio. Rockford, IL - WNIJ - is our station, and ALL the folk programs, one-by-one, were strangled by execs who never learned the value of our music. (It's the same with big bands and be bop and cool jazz.) Seeing the programs wink out like stars on a cloudy night is rather like watching an old person s-l-o-w-l-y die. The breathing diminishes---and then--the room is more silent than you ever thought it could be. The beloved voice(s) -- the music -- will not fly through-the-air to impinge on our mind's ear because of seemingly arbitrary bottom line considerations.

But MATT WOTROBA is a fine singer and musicuan. He will be doing a concert for the Hogeye Concert Series in Chicago/Evanston, Illinois soon. Be sure to catch it---and give Matt your support !

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:07 PM

I sent my protest immediately upon reading this, and I bcc'ed Matt. There simply is no finer singer, musicologist, father, husband and person, than Matt Watroba. I have always watched him from the sidelines and envied his knowledge and talent. This is a blow to all of us, and extremely shortsighted on the part of WDET. I hope that all that read this forum will take 30 seconds and let this entity know that they are, indeed, a PUBLIC radio station. They have an obligation and a mandate to be inclusive in what they cover. They are not a "for profit" and ratings driven entity. One of the reasons these were created was to create and maintain outlets for traditional music.

I am sick over this one.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

Maybe Matt Watroba and Larry McDaniel just didn't want to do it any more?

I'm afraid I need to hear more details before I consider sending letters or any such....

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:14 PM

I have heard from Matt, and he definitely is looking for a new home for the show.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: saulgoldie
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:22 PM

NPR is committing slow and painful suicide, much to the probable delight of conservatives. I am as saddened and disgusted as anyone about this decline. Perhaps the place to go is XML, where Bob Edwards has recently found a new home.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:23 PM

In the last two or three years, the same thing happened to a bluegrass show on an NPR supported station in Washington DC, which happened to be the most popular show on that station!

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:28 PM

Send Matt to www.folkalley.com!

:-)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:57 PM

Here is a note that Matt posted on the Folk-DJ listserv and asked us to share:

DJ Pals:

As shocking as this may sound, I was told Thursday by WDET management
that my contract will not be renewed and that the Folks Like Us program
was canceled at WDET in Detroit. My last show, after almost 18 years in
the same time slot, was last Saturday. They also pulled the plug on the
bluegrass show that follows mine. They said that the trend is going
away from, what they called, "fringe" or "specialty" shows. Keep in
mind that these back-to-back shows consistently had the highest weekend
ratings and consistently did very well during pledge drives. I'm hoping
that another station around town will be interested in picking up a
folk show that will bring with it thousands of loyal listeners and
proven contributors, but for now Folks Like Us is not on the schedule.
We will keep www.folkslikeus.org very active, and are encouraging the
folk music community in Michigan to continue using it as a vibrant
resource. I am not currently subscribed to any of the other listserves
and would appreciate it if someone passed this message along to Folk
Alliance etc...
Thought you all should know...

Matt Watroba
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:58 PM

What is even more heartless is that Matt never had a chance to say goodbye to his audience.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 04:09 PM

Wow... that blows... Matts show was the only thing I'd tune into Nation Pretentious Radio for... On the off chance I was near a radio when it was on...

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM

Count your blessing for what you have in the 21st Century.

We still have good local folk, bluegrass, and old country music programming on WDCB in chicago, an NPR outlet.

When I listen, I cherish it like it will be the last time it's on.

One day, it probably will be.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:21 PM

Well said Martin.   When you think about all the genres of music that has fans but limited radio play, it is very sad.   Ragtime, polka, old country, music hall, etc. are styles that have been relegated to "specialty" interests. When the support dies, so do the programs.

I think Matt had the support, but some empty suit decided the station could reach more ears by programming something different. It happens all the time.

I've been blessed to have a program on a radio station that allows us the freedom to play what we do.   I try not to lose sight of the fact that a personnel change in the chain of command could alter my opportunity.

Listener support is so important. I urge everyone to support their local program when it comes time to raise funds. Donating is the same as voting. There is strength in numbers, not always just financial numbers - but numbers of listeners who are willing to contribute.

Unfortunately it may take more than listener support to save shows, but without the support there is no chance.

Matt is too good to be sitting on the sidelines. I am hoping there is someone out there that will seize the opportunity to bring Matt to their station.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

ron, I hope your show goes on for a very long time.

As I mentioned earlier, I was fortunate enough to hear this programming a couple of weeks ago on the way to Detroit. I believe WDET was public radio and there were no commercials. i wouldn't doubt if your show is the same format. WDCB here is NPR and tied to a community college.

Does any show like this get picked up a station that has regular sponsors and not just contributors or endowments? I would think it is pretty rare.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:40 PM

Thanks Martin. Next year will mark my 30th anniversary with WFDU and my 25th anniversary of hosting TRADITIONS. Even with that amount of time under my belt, I worry about the future. I'm lucky, but I realize that anything could happen.

My show airs on a non-commercial college radio station. There are very few folk shows that are actually on commercial stations.

Some public radio stations belong to NPR and usually (but not always) have more money than other public stations. Some public stations are community owned, or owned by Pacifia, or more commonly owned by a college. My station is owned by Fairleigh Dickinson University.

A few shows that air on commercial radio stations actually buy their airtime. They pay the station for the opportunity to broadcast, and they make their money back from commercials. As you noted Martin, there are very few stations that go this route.   

Commercial stations these days program for the largest audience they can find.   Folk music, bluegrass and other styles are "fringe". In NYC, you cannot find a commercial country station anymore.

There also seems to be a trend for non-commerical NPR-type stations to follow a format. Matt's station has made that change apparently. WFUV went the same route.   Non-commercial stations are competing for the same audience, and unfortunately many lose sight of the reason why they exist in the first place.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:42 PM

I guess satelite radio will be the wave of the future.

Want your type of programming?

Just pay for it. It will not be free.

Hard to believe no commercial country radio in NYC. Not that I am a big fan of it but you do hear a banjo every now and then.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:44 PM

I thought this might be of interest given the subject---since as one of you said---they are committing slow suicide. Something I have posted on a Folk DJlistserv. Though, sadly, I think they (NPR) are tending toward homogonization in the hopes of even more money---so much for the non profit organization. Hell, they even got rid of the "voice of their mornings"---even before he could celebrate a milestone anniversary ---his building the audience to what it now is (albeit no alone). Bob Edwards.

The posting is below:


> Just recently I was listening to a discussion on the local NPR (WNYC)
> station here in the metro NY area---The Brian Lehrer program--on the subject of how NPR is overwhelming the stations with their own programming becoming more commercial and mainstream along the way.   Most of the callers that responded to the discussion between Lehrer and a media consultant guest agreed---the only program that they singled out as being really worthwhile was On The Media (due to its independence and freedom of topics). While it is true that the All Things Considered, Morning Report, Weekend Ed. are surely excellent and popular with the public, they should only be considered
> part of a larger mix for the various local audiences. Sadly that is not the trend.
>
> WNYC is a perfect example---from a wonderful mix of talk, music, drama their slogan now is "Talk All Day---CLassical Music All Night."   The only saving grace with them is that so far they have not cancelled their 2 most erudite and interesting hosts of local discussion and arts programs.

They have, however, relegated their long time classical morning person (with a sardonic humor and great commentary to a Sat. 1 hr afternoon program---and Oscar Brand (the longest running folk program) to the A M outlet at some late Sat. evening hour---after much shuffling around.
>
> It only proves to me---and from what I hear by people turned off by
> commercial radio---that "community"/"university" radio is the only beacon in a sea of bland sameness and can highlight music and issues in a more diverse way.

Or---as Ronnie Gilbert said in an ID she gave me for our station (WFDU)---The Right Place On The Left Side of the Dial---that is where most of theseplaces are.


Bill Hahn
>

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:46 PM

Most, if not all college stations broadcast at very low frequencies.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:52 PM

Well, fortunately the reach of WFDU is to the metro NY NJ CT areas roughly an 80 mile circle of sound.   Ron---correct me if I am wrong in that figure.

My guess is that around the country there other such stations---granted not in the majority, but enough to make a difference if people support them in lieu of NPR

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:54 PM

Let's make WFDU a 50K watt clear channel!

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:12 PM

From your mouth to you know who's ears. But---then someone would want to commercialize it and make it an NPR station.

Speaking of that---since Capitol Steps will no longer have their shows aired on the local NPR station here (they do a quarterly radio show) WFDU will be carrying it. Will keep all posted when it will air next month.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Teresa
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM

The only reason I found the local (Las vegas) folk music show on (jazz) KUNV was that this station wasn't the NPR (news and information) and it wasn't the (classical) noncommercial one either. I looked at KUNVs schedule in desperation and found a bunch of "world and roots" stuff all relegated to a Saturday. The folk show, "Patchwork" is great. Unfortunately, there is no webcast, and the signal is weak enough that I can't always get it in stereo.

This is a disturbing trend with NPR. I'm looking to independent Internet and university stations for my folk music now.

T

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 07:21 PM

Not quite Bill.   The pattern is not circular and it reaches maybe 50 miles in certain directions, but less in others. We are low power, but in FM radio the height of the transmitter determines how far it will carry.

Yes, most non-commercial stations operate at a lower power. The non-com's are centered around the low end of the dial due to FCC regulations, but there are many exceptions.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 07:28 PM

Martin brought up satellite radio. I really feel that this is going to be the future. True, you will have to pay for it - but technically you need to pay for broadcast radio as well. Whether we like to admit it or not, everyone is influenced by commercials. For the non-com's, they need listener donations in order to survive.

Satellite radio is where FM radio was in the late 60's and early 70's. On satellite radio you will find variety and innovation that is slowly vanishing from the broadcast airwaves.

We can't stop evolution. What we can do is find new outlets for creativity and enjoyment. Think of the changes the internet gave to us. I'm not worried yet.

Sorry to thread creep.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 07:32 PM

Come back in 10 years and 10 corporations will own 99% of the airwaves. Right now ClearChannel and Viacom control 45% of the industies revenues and ClearChannel owns more radio stations than the rest of the Top Ten corporations *combined*!!!

(Source: "Are You Being Heard", by Abby White, " Performing Songwiters" magazine, July/August 2004.)

Thank the Lord we still have Dick Spotswood's show outta WAMU, 88.5.

Sorry to hear of your loss.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 07:40 PM

Yet---not to disagree with Ron on this, since I believe he is correct--we will be missing something that should be important to us. Local stations with local programming for community interest, musical interest, and finally, local weather and other such info.

Recently I was at my daughter's place which is serviced by Satellite TV (hundreds of channels of the same crapola) and many music channels---boring. Oh sure---category for all genres---and all mainstream. Where is the place there for newcomers, explanations by knowledgeable hosts, and such things? Nowhere.

Damn, Ron---here I thought size was what counted. I stand corrected---height. I guess it all depends on your perspective.

In fact, I know that and my understanding is that we are trying to enlarge the area of coverage.

   But--back to the original thought here on this thread. Wherever it is we hope that "folk","topical" and non commercial finds a home---my feeling just happens to be that it should be local and let the word spread.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 07:45 PM

when WAMU does give up, they will do it just like they did in Detroit. They cancelled an afternoon Bluegrass show a few years ago by calling in Lee Michael Dempsey after his show and telling him "that was your last show"...they do NOT want air time for hosts to raise support.

Dick Spottswood's show was cut from 3 hrs to 2 not long ago, and other shows have been messed with also....they DO provide a 24hr internet Bluegrass program, but that hardly helps in your car or out in the yard....

Mary Cliff's 30+year old program on WETA will probably go away totally when she retires, as WETA considers it a nuisance in their largely classical format.

It's a sign of the times, folks

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM

A few years ago, University of the Pacific had one of the best folk lineups you could hope for: 7:00-10:00 five nights a week and four hours, 11:00-3:00, on Saturday. The weekend host was "Uncle John" Gwinner, husband of autoharp virtuoso Tina Louise Barr. The week day material was like a "Top 40" review of current Folk, Celtic, Western Swing and Bluegrass CDs. Saturday was even more eclectic, with lots of "hot pickers" like Tony Rice and David Grisman, plus many CDs you were unlikely to own.

Control of the content was switched (by NPR) to Sacramento, were a total of five college stations now originate. The new manager ended the daily broadcast saying that it "did not fit our demographics". I just looked today and "UncleJohn's" weekend show is also gone.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:08 PM

And, sadly, the beat goes on.

Pray for the college and community stations---and support them financially.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:12 PM

Just turned on the computer and found this; I am setting here trying to figure out whether to cuss a blue streak or shed tears. I discovered Matt's show a few years ago, and it has been my single favorite thing on any broadcast media since. I've never known of anyone whose musical taste matchs my own so completely. He introduced me to God knows how many performers I might never have heard of otherwise. The decision to cancel his show is a travesty and an abomination.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:51 PM

P.S. I just went straight to WDET listener comments, and tried to give them my honest feelings without, I hope, being vicious. Please do the same, though I wish I could really hope it will help. At least try to make them aware of how much hurt they just caused.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Devilmaster
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 04:23 PM

My email sent.

Steve

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:10 PM

I've sent my comments (without being incendiary). It's particularly ironic that WDET is still touting its "global reputation for diverse sounds", while drastically narrowing that diversity.

I also make it a point to support Dick Spottswood by pledging to WAMU specifically during his show, buying his premiums etc.

I don't think we should give up on public radio. But we should make our voices heard--it pays to be vocal and articulate.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 07:09 PM

In my email to WDET I said they can no longer count on my support. I do send them money annually. It's about as much as a year's subscription to XM or Sirius, which gives me an idea...

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Matt Watroba
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM

Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this silly situation at WDET in Detroit. Your comments have been wonderful to read over this odd weekend. I depend on this forum a lot for information and to keep in touch with people who realize the power of the music that, I believe, is the heart and soul of culture. It may drop off short sighted radio stations, but it never goes away thanks to folks like you. I'm confident that another station in the area will welcome the music, and the thousands of loyal contributing listeners that will surely follow along.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 12:12 AM

I've sent my e-mail...and I'll probably send more...

Of all the audacious behaviors, WDET had the nerve to send me a "pledge renewal" form yesterday! In fact, they sent two: one for me, and one for the Paint Creek Folklore Society (of which I am a member--www.paintcreekfolkloresociety.org).

They have GOT to be kidding!!

If they are counting on us for pledges, phone volunteers, etc., perhaps they ought to consider what programs we are pledging and volunteering for...

Metro Detroit and the surrounding areas have a very large acoustic music following--there are a plethora of coffeehouse and small concert venues, where local talent and traveling national names perform regularly. "Folks Like Us" and "The Arkansas Traveler" helped promote these venues and artists, and, likewise, the local artists and clubs promoted WDET.

What would be the benefit of promoting a public radio station that has no programming of interest to you?

Keep writing...I will...

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 12:45 AM

...one more thing--

Several posts mentioned "free" radio, and that perhaps we ought to just pay for satellite radio...

What I have noticed on these kinds of stations is a rather bland, "mainstream" kind of music--not unpleasant, but not exactly stimulating, either.

And who will play the local artists? Certainly not a satellite station, broadcast homogeneously across the entire continent!

We have a small college station (WXOU -- Oakland University) that has a folk program on Tuesday evenings: The Old Front Porch Radio Show. Talk about variety in programming--they have even played *my* recording! Do you think satellite radio programming is ever going to find--much less PLAY--an obscure recording of "The Keweenaw Light" by a kindergarten teacher from Michigan? Not likely... (The problem is that WXOU has an absolutely miniscule broadcast area; I have to drive across town to be able to pick it up.) It takes a show with a personal touch--the input of a thoughtful DJ, the feedback from the listeners--to have the kind of impact Matt's show had on folk music in the Detroit area. No national or worldwide satellite program could reproduce "Folks Like Us."

The promotion of local talent and local venues was one of the things that was always so great about Matt's show. You could hear someone on the program Saturday afternoon, think, "Wow! I've got to go see HER!!"--and see them in town that very evening. There's no other way to create that kind of interest in a new or unknown performer.

I can see this changing the entire face of acoustic music in Southeastern Michigan.

denise :^)
...rambling, I'm afraid, but this is so upsetting!!!

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: maire-aine
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 12:50 AM

I'm shocked. I shouldn't be, but I am. I've already sent off my nastigram to the station. I've been listening to Matt and Larry for years. Not only have we lost a great source for music, but a great vehicle for communication among traditional music groups. For a while, I did publicity for our local Comhaltas group (trad Irish), and Matt always announced our events, as he did for dozens of other groups in the area. Matt and Larry, if you're out there, we love you, and we hope we'll be hearing you both again real soon.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM

Aha, Denise, I know who you are! See you at the next comfy concert?

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:47 PM

The whole situation is rather murky.    In addition to cancelling the two shows listed above, they also cancelled Mountain Stage which aired immediately after.   

On Thursday, WDET announced that they were cancelling all their national shows (Car Talk, Thistle and Shamrock.. etc) to save money and promote local music shows.   On Friday they annoucned the cancelling of Folks Like US and Mountain Stage. That certainly did not fit with their press relase the day before.   On Saturday they had the new lineup on air.

Matt is a good friend of mine.   I have been in the studio many times with him- both as a phone operator during pledge drive, or driving in national artists playing in town.   I was just there three weeks ago with the Groovemonger when they played our contra dance.    At that time, Matt had no idea what was coming as we discussed future acts coming in town.

I know for a fact, that Matt had the second highest budget during plege week for the entire station- only behind morning edition.   I always assumed that meant he had the second biggest audience.   He always had a full staff for pledge drive and we always seemd to make the target.

Glen Morningstar (local caller and musician) wrote a stinging letter to the station.   One of his points was very significant. The station claims that only 6% of its viewers contribute to pledge drive, but if you check the zip codes he would contend that most of them are out of Detroit Metro and folks like us listeners.

There are two other public radio shows in our area.   Brad Battey- (fiddler and president of AACTMAD)stated it best when he said that they may carry Prarie Home, but do not give local announcements or support local musicians as Denise pointed out.

Our dance groups co sponsors a dance with Paint Creek Folklore society each year and has a fund raiser for WDET.   We have contributed $200 or more for the past 6-7 years.   Not this year.

It was a bad decision that was handled poorly.    Matt will bounce back.   WDET won't.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:50 PM

pdq and Bill D are right.
I supported WAMU for years, listening to the Jerry Gray Show and The Ray Davis Show along with Lee Michael Demsey's program. They were unceremoniously dumped. Despiter latters of protest, they were not brought back. I pulled my support - no more bucks.
It didn't make any difference.
Now I contribute to Mary Cliff on WETA, and if she goes.....


Seamus

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Folksinger
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:08 PM

Talk about "cutting off your nose to spite your face".WDET has really done it this time. It may be a new 'empty suit' or someone at Wayne State University who sponsors WDET, but whoever made this decision was very short-sighted and unaware of the Bottom-line pledge value they cancelled. We had arranged to have Sally Rogers on Matt's show the day of our Paint Creek Folklore Society's Tin Whistle Concert. I just sent her an e-mail stating we'll try to get you an interview with Matt if another station picks him up. Just think of how much $$$ a commercial station could raise with Matt's show! Ads would be Elderly Instruments, Martin and Taylor, and other interests of our grey-bearded generation. But, that would not be PUBLIC RADIO. We have lost all control of this so-called PUBLIC RADIO.         with tears, Jerry

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 09:27 PM

Well, frogprince--if you are at the next Comfy Concert, you are going to see me in a really big way!!

denise ;^)
(It's not too hard to figure out who people are when they use their own first name, is it? Now, I'm afraid you have to 'fess up...)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 10:18 AM

Here is a little enlightenment from today's Detroit Free Press by radio-Tv writer John Smyntek


WDET choice stirs up criticism

September 21, 2004


We yield the floor this morning to Ed Christian, president and CEO of Grosse Pointe Farms-based Saga Communications, learned broadcaster and influential Wayne State University graduate: "I have been an observer of WDET for many years now and I am concerned that the station management is living in a vacuum. WDET management doesn't understand the need to program to a large constituency. Our other public alternative, WUOM, does. WDET chooses to place their imprimatur on the station based on their own perceptions and tastes."

Christian states the case of many irate public radio listeners in metro Detroit who will no longer hear Tavis Smiley, Terry Gross, the Magliozzi brothers from "Car Talk," Ira Glass and his "This American Life" and others cut last week.

Sminty says blame AAA -- a radio format known as alternative adult album. The music is largely by critically acclaimed but not best-selling artists, and during some periods, jazz. It is what WDET's Judy Adams, Martin Bandyke and most of the other WDET air personalities play, with only National Public Radio's "Morning Edition" and "All Things Considered" intervening.

Any chance of the shows, including folkster Matt Watroba's and bluegrasser Larry McDaniel's Saturday efforts, being restored? "None," says WDET general manager Caryn Mathes.

WDET, for better or worse, is no longer an audio department store that tried to satisfy lots of people at least some of the time with small-block, diverse programming. By sticking to music that appeals to a very engaged listener with fewer programming seams -- think cool music for cool people -- Mathes now hopes to build a core audience who stay with 101.9 for longer periods.

The risks? In a music market where savvy listeners are turning to satellite radio and MP3 players, WDET might be aiming at people who have figuratively left the church. And at a time when some argue that public broadcasters should be focusing on the serious matters of presidential politics, urban woes, international terror and turmoil, WDET shows it prefers the role of musician. (New schedule at www.wdetfm.org.)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: maire-aine
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM

Here is a portion of the form-letter reply to my email, which says pretty much the same thing.

"In reviewing the listening habits of our audience we found that the most listened to programs on WDET were our music variety and NPR news
magazine programs. These programs have the loyalist listeners who tune
into WDET throughout the week. Other specialty programs were found to
have listeners who tended to only tune into that particular program,
creating heavy amounts of tune in and tune out during prime listening
periods. In the interest of better public service, WDET now provides
more consistent accessibility to programming so that listeners can use
it more frequently. With cohesive programming based on what the
majority of our listeners like best, WDET's audience and donor base will be fortified."

They have no idea how badly this will back-fire on them.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 12:40 PM

Will it, Maryanne? I have heard this before, but folks just find it to be too much trouble and they keep going back. And these jackals count on that. I would challenge my friends in Southeastern Michigan to prove me wrong, but I don't think they will. These folks at WDET are gambling that the "uproar" won't have legs. Based on what I see in my work as a social and political activist, they are probably right. We are rapidly heading into a homogenous society with little color. Just one more sign.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:03 PM

No real secret, I guess, Denise; Judy and I will be looking forward to your set. Dean.
At least glad to know WDET heard from a number of the troops out there. They were the only station I had contributed cash to, and that ends as of now.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:37 PM

The theory that WDET is working on is the same that a number of non-com's have used in recent years. It is easier to build ONE audience that remains loyal to the entire format. WFUV in NYC is an example. A few years ago they cut loose a number of programs, including a polka show that had run for decades.   Same principle. They developed a format they called "City Folk" that is simply a disguised AAA format. They have built a large audience, one that identifies with the station as a whole.    The station I volunteer for, WFDU, maintains the alternate approach where we maintain specialty shows with individual audiences. Stations like ours depends on every show pulling their weight.

It is much easier for a station to maintain and build an audience that knows they can tune in any hour of the day and know what they will hear. With specialty-type programs, each day, sometimes each hour, will sound different and have separate audiences.

So why should it matter? As everyone knows, public radio exists to serve audiences that cannot find this type of programming elsewhere on the dial.   As with most things in life, it comes down to money. Underwriters tend to put their money where they know they will reach the largest audience.   Underwriters are similar in concept to commercials. An underwriter wants the audience to know they are supporting the program you are listening to in the same way a commercial reaches its audience.   When an underwriter donates to a specific program on a specialty station, their audience is limited. When they donate to a AAR type public station, they know they will be heard by a wider variety of people. It is simply - more bang for their buck. For the non-coms that continue to program specialty shows, the job just becomes that much harder.

I do not agree with the concept. Yes, in principle it works, but in the long run it defeats the purpose of public radio as I know it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:45 PM

Well said, Ron. Exactly what I was trying to get at, but you said it much better.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM

oops... in my second to last paragraph I typed AAR instead of AAA. Alternative Adult Album, Adult Contemporary, Album Orient Rock, Americana.... so many labels for music that no one can really define.

Give me folk! That is easy to define, right??   :)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: maire-aine
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 04:17 PM

I understand, Mick, but I guess I'm not a typical radio listener. I almost never have the radio on at home. Once in a while I turn it on in the car, but seldom. And only when I was driving around on Saturdays and I'd turn on Matt and/or Larry. I've erased WDET from the button on my car radio, so they've completely disappeared from the airwaves, as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 04:38 PM

Maire-aine, the description you gave of your radio habits are similar to calls that we get from what would be called casual listeners. "I only listen on Sunday afternoons", "I only get you when I'm in my car", "I can only listen at work", etc.    What I find though, is that come pledge time, we do not hear from them. I find most of our pledges come from long-time listeners who pledge year after year. They may not listen every single week, but they make it a point to tune in when they can. Many of them tune into similar programs on our station as well.

I will not ask you if you ever pledged to WDET. What I will say is that many people tend to get comfortable with tuning into programs while driving in their car or as background to other activities.   They won't bother to pledge, maybe because they can't get to a phone, and their "vote" never gets counted.

Of course, Matt had a very successful pledge drive by all accounts. That did not enter into the management decision. Frankly, they probably did the math and Matt lost out.   I know when WFUV dropped their very popular polka show, there was an outcry, but it quickly disappeared.

The only advice I could give is - support your local folk radio program. Your pledge is a "vote". Not every radio station will be following WDET's game plan. Matt's story could turn people off from supporting shows, saying "why bother"?   That is far from the truth. Reality is, numbers do count.   I know Matt and Larry will end up somewhere.   When they do, I hope the listeners will make their voices heard.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 06:32 PM

Mick and Ron are correct. The outcry will disappear and the shows will be forgotten.
At least they did here at WAMU.
Oh I forgot. They put them on the Internet, so you could listen on your computer.
But it's a bitch when you're driving.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:01 PM

I have to put my "not worth more than any others" 2 cents in. Since Ron has mentioned WFUV here, I must add that they have basically become almost a commercial station --or NPR station at this point. Paid staff, proscribed playlists, and mostly mainstream "folk" music--for want of a better word. Weekends there, I guess, are a bit different. I don't really know.

Thankfully our(WFDU) station has the independence (and the mgmt) that is not subscribing to national services and can offer the varied programming Ron mentioned earlier. His analysis there is quite apt---the numbers count since all the programs have a different listenership and demographic. But, is that not what radio should be about? Hell, you can hear the same-o ,same-o on commercial radio and soon on NPR outlets --including the aforementioned "college" station with the paid staff.

Which brings us back to numbers and dollars. In the case of WFDU each program---as Ron has pointed out---has to pull its weight. Many are gone---ours---Ron's and mine (Traditions---which I credit Ron, surely, for initiating over 24 yrs ago) also still have to show its financial viability.   If nostalgia and history could win the day I would be delighted.   But dollars and listenership (based on dollars) seem to be the coin of the realm. The only saving grace is that we are not the financial league of the larger NPR stations that drop programs loved by the public---so there is that leeway


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 11:48 PM

I've also just received the stale pre-packaged letter from WDET explaining that they have no intention of restoring the shows.

I've just written back again, pointing out the above nature of their letter, and asking them to delete from all their blurbs any assertion of "a global reputation for diverse programming" as they are now engaged in destroying that diversity.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 02:08 AM

Listeners to 'specialty' shows don't usually pledge? Maybe, in some cases, but--

Everyone that I know personally who listened to "Folks Like Us" and "The Arkansas Traveler" also pledged money during these programs. How do I know? Not only have we discussed it, but I've spent many hours answering the phones during WDET pledge drives--and usually knew many of the callers I spoke with! I also see them wearing the shirts or hats; using the coffee mugs--and answering the phones along side of me...

As for "give our new format a listen," HA!! I'm sure there are many folk/bluegrass devotees who also enjoy jazz and blues. I am not one of them.

If I die and go to hell, they'll be playing jazz and blues there, I'm sure--keeping in mind, of course, that 'hell' is relative to the individual...

I'm sure we can't stay vocally angry for the remainder of time and all eternity--who would want to?--but we *will* go away from WDET; our *money* will go away; we won't be there to answer phones and take pledges, as we were before; our 'fundraiser' events from Paint Creek Folklore and Oakland County Traditional Dance will no longer be for the benefit of WDET...

The only thing more ignorant than this programming decision is that obnoxious form letter they sent me today!

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 09:33 AM

The people who like the album alternative adult (whatever) format five days a week aren't going to pledge more now that they've got it seven days a week. WDET will lose the pledges of those who like folk and bluegrass. SO...they'll experience an overall decrease in pledge money, but by ditching $150,000 in NPR programs -- Car Talk, Tavis Smiley, Terry Gross -- they won't need as much in pledge money as they used to. Despite losing our support, they'll come out ahead.

The station may be using Detroit's daily newspapers as their business model. After the strike of 1995-97 the newspapers lost hundreds of thousands of readers (who have never come back), but they also got rid of the Teamsters, the printers and other unionized workers. The newspapers are profitable, even with far fewer customers.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 09:50 AM

Denise - just to clarify, I was not saying that listeners to specialty shows do not donate. Listeners to specialty shows are very loyal. They do donate. Without them, I would not be doing my show after nearly 30 years with WFDU, almost 25 with TRADITIONS.

My point is that a listener who tunes in on a daily basis, or more frequently than once a week, tends to have more opportunities to make a donation. Even more importantly, the pressure for donations becomes less when you have an underwriter that covers a chunk of the budget. Donations will always be important, but if you have an underwriter that is paying $1K per show, that could represent over 50 donor pledges. For example, WFUV had a very popular polka show that did well in the ratings. When they replaced it with former WNEW-FM DJ's, they received underwriting grants as well as gave their "regular" listeners increased opportunities.

This is why some stations like WDET come across they way they do. They have a different business plan. If they upset a few hundred listeners, they feel that it is a loss they can take if they gain several hundred new listeners.

Again, I disgree with the premise. This is not why public radio was created.

Holding back donations and writing angry letters will help the listener gain a sense of acting on the issue, but it really won't put a dent into the stations plans. The only way listeners can make a difference is a challenge to the license renewal. IF it can be shown that a station is not acting in the public interest, they CAN and HAVE lost their license. This takes a real organized effort and it is not easy to accomplish.   However, radio stations with limited budgets can't afford the court costs and they will respond to any threat.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:02 AM

Cool Beans - they may not pledge "more", but they will have "more" opportunites to pledge.   If you listen to one show a week, what happens if you are busy the night they do fundraising?   You never make the pledge. If you listen sporadically throughout the week there are more chances you will hear their pitches for donations. And again - please read my comments above - they will find their support in other ways.   You also made a very good point. By dropping expensive shows they lower their expenses which will show an increase in profits.

It is really sad that some public radio stations feel the need to operate in such fashions.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: maire-aine
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 12:44 PM

Well, I may be a "casual listener" but I have supported WDET-- to an extent that I think is commensurate with my listening. And then come the regular mailings from the station, asking for even more money. It seems like the more you give, the more you're asked for. I know it's a time-honored principle of fund-raising--if people have given once, they're more likely to give again. But the last time I heard from them, I got a phone call asking if I'd give them $400 this time. Not! Let's face it. This is Michigan. The economy has been bad for a couple of years, and we've all had to tighten our belts. And I can't blame the station for trying to cut costs. But do locally produced show like "Folks Like Us" and "Arkansas Traveller" really cost so much more than what they were replaced by.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM

I can't speak for the costs of WDET, but radio is not cheap. The cost of transmitter, electricty, phone lines, etc. - all elements needed to broadcast the sound are high. The bills have to be paid by someone.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 08:24 PM

Well put, Ron.

But from the comments made it does seem that the shows that were cancelled pulled their own weight in fund raising. We both know that at WFDU listeners to our program pledge to us as well as to some of the other programs. They want to show their loyalty to those programs (as said WFDU has for want of a better word a multi-formatted approach) that they appreciate or listen to.

The comments re: WFUV are well said. I don't personally know if the Polka show's replacement got them all the underwriting grants mentioned but it did seem to me a rather crass venture in getting all the ex-WQXR and WNEW people there and my guess is that there is some hope of getting more dollars from the audience because of the "names". "Names", which, frankly, do no more (perhaps even less) in presenting the newer wave of artists and also having less to do with topical material.

I add here, uncertainly, that they may well be paid. So much for FUV as "college radio".

I do not mean this to sound as sour grapes. AT WFDU we are all volunteers---Ron, I, and all the rest of the staff merely try to bring the best of what we hope is of interest and will also introduce artists to a wider audience in the various genres we offer.

Having said all of the above, I will add in summary that people pledge to the station when the pitches are on---at least on the local Public Stations in this area (WNYC comes to mind).   Given that it means that it is the programming they are supporting-----all of it. Some stations---like ours(WFDU)---the pledges are for the individual programs. That is the reason for the earlier comment about support. For the larger NPR stations I do believe that people want their feeds but also want the local programming that those stations provided----hence the support of the cancelled programs we spoke of.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 08:43 PM

Bill & Ron, would you please let me know when you do your next drive? I would like to contribute.

All the best,

Mick Lane

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 08:47 PM

I can tell you it will be in February of 2005.   But, I am sure you can check the WFDU website   (www.wfdu.fm) and pledge at anytime and say to whom you are pledging

Thanks so much for you kind support and note.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 09:14 PM

Although I live in the UK now, so I rarely get got to listen to Folks Like Us (a.k.a. FLU) lately, I was a bit stunned (as well as dismayed) to learn that 'DET has discontinued all its folk programming (although I'm sure I wasn't nearly as stunned as the presenters of the various programs). Anybody else remember their pledge drive slogan about "putting the 'you' in Public Radio"? It seems to me that – for far too many of us – they have just put the 'you' in F*CK...

I've put in my fair share of time (not to mention money) helping out at pledge drives, so I've met Caryn Mathes, Judy Adams, Martin Bandyke etc, and I have to confess that I'd thought better of them. What I find particularly disturbing is the shabby way they have treated their presenters and volunteers, many of whom have donated their services for decades. People like Judy (Dyki) Weatherford (who co-produces Matt's show – and helped produce the folk show for quite a few years before Matt came on board) were not even given the courtesy of being personally informed by someone at the station; they simply (and abruptly) stopped receiving 'DET staff e-mails. And Gods forbid anyone should take the drastic step of saying "thank you" to any of them for the years (and years and years) of time (unpaid for the most part) they have given the station! Or letting them say a proper good-bye to their listeners (although I imagine they were too scared of what might happen if they allowed that).

Of course this isn't the first time 'DET has done such a thing; I remember the outcry when the Hispanic community's "El Grito de mi Rasa" (amongst other programs) was discontinued 9-10 (ish) years ago...

It seems to me this is just the latest stage in the gradual, nationwide transformation of "Public" Radio from something that was truly independent-minded and community-oriented, and had a bit of an edge to it (although struggling by on a shoestring budget) to a complacent, commercial, establishment entity which is more concerned with money, "success" and corporate sponsorship than with serving its community. It has replaced actual responsiveness to its audience/community with lip service and spin, trumpeting its "dedication" to its listeners while pulling the rug out from underneath a great many of its most loyal supporters.

Sad as it may be, if we want honest-to-gosh listener-responsive, not-afraid-to-be-too-different, "fringe"-friendly radio, Public Radio is no longer the place to turn. It's still got some good stuff, and it's not (yet) as mediocre as mainstream radio, but that's definitely where it's heading – more's the pity! It seems to be part of that cycle where things first challenge the establishment, then become establishment themselves – becoming (to a large extent) that which they thenselves originally critcised and challenged. So... it's obviously time to look someplace else for upstart, "fringe"-friendly, non corporate-oriented radio. There's the web, though as others have said, that's pretty limiting – doesn't help when you're in the car or a non-computerized area of the house. There *are* smaller, more community-oriented stations, and I'm all for supporting them. However, if FLU gets picked up by a tiny station – even though that's certainly better than nothing – there are still going to be a bunch of disappointed fans who the broadcast won't reach. It's definitely a real bugger.

I plan to send 'DET my 2p worth of deep disappointment, for all the good it will do, but I have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that Cool Beans and Ron O are right that it prolly won't make much difference to them financially in the long run. Even so, I can't help hoping 'DET will notice a significant – and lasting – drop in their pledge amounts... enough to make them at least wonder if this wasn't such a great idea after all.

One last thought... I have heard of someone who intends to contact 'DET and let them know that not only will she no longer pledge, but she wants her money back... I love it! I would guess Ron's comment [The only way listeners can make a difference is a challenge to the license renewal. IF it can be shown that a station is not acting in the public interest, they CAN and HAVE lost their license. This takes a real organized effort and it is not easy to accomplish. However, radio stations with limited budgets can't afford the court costs and they will respond to any threat.] is likely to be the most productive avenue to pursue, particularly as I've heard rumors that Wayne State's prez is not too happy with 'DET's management decisions and direction lately.

(By the way, HELLO! to Cool Beans, Denise, Larry K & Matt – from former Paint Creeker Vikki A [frogprince, don't think I know you; you must've joined after I moved].)

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:04 PM

Oh, hi, Vikki!! ;^)

I, too, am hoping that WDET suffers a *noticeable* drop in pledges. (I'm sure their Saturday pledge drive won't be the same...)

And, Ron, I know you weren't saying that specialty listeners do not donate--I guess I was just thinking that I know for a fact that Matt's show was in 2nd place (just behind 'Morning Edition') in pledge drive revenues--and, answering the phones during his show, I personally knew many of the callers I spoke with. I think that we have a small, vocal "specialty" group who are very generous at pledge time. I hope we can make them feel the pinch!

Folk/acoustic music is a pretty big deal around here--there are a lot of venues, a lot of musicians, a lot of organizations...but maybe not enough to make a big difference.

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:26 PM

Believe me, I do hope that WDET takes a huge hit and realizes the huge error they made. Unfortunately, the reality is that WDET made a move that many other non-com radio stations across the country have already made and proved successful. They take the momentary hit of bad press, but in the long run they gain new listeners and new underwriters.   They would not drop a program unless they were SURE they could cover the loss. They may be stupid, but they aren't dumb.

Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter how well a show does in terms of fundraising. If the station is looking to go in another direction they will do so. Going back to the FUV story, when they dropped the polka show it was one of the highest fundraisers on the station. It didn't matter. They did get the underwriting and the recognition. EVEN if the new show has less pledges, they still make more money.

FUV went from just another college radio station to one of the most listened to public radio stations in the country. They outdraw commercial stations in the New York market, the #1 radio market in the world. Does it matter to them if they lost a few thousand devoted polka fans who only tuned into that one show?   No.   WDET is probably feeling the same thing about Matt and Larry.

ANY university or public radio can EASILY change. All it takes is a new university president or a new general manager with what they think are good ideas. It ends up with listners losing a huge outlet.

The internet, the handful of non-coms that won't cave in and satellite radio WILL be the future for creative programming.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:51 AM

Ron, just wanted to thank you for your explanations. They help me (and, I'm sure, many others) at least understand the "why" a bit better in a situation that otherwise seems to make no (or very little) sense. And if we understand why, we are better equipped to try to change things – otherwise we waste time and energy on things that have little or no impact.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:59 AM

For what it's worth, my WDET pledge renewal form arrived in the mail and I've had the pleasure of returning it with suitable, albeit decorous, comments.
Hi back atcha, Vikki.

Marty

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:22 PM

'scuse me guys...Vikki, I tried to drop a personal rather than break up the thread more, but didn't get a connection for you. My wife Judy and I have been attending most of the comfy concerts, with some playdays and occasional meetings, for some years now, but distance and other commitments have made Paint Creek membership impractical so far. As it happens, I think we were at the meeting the night you said you were bound for that side of the pond.   Dean.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

Ron is more objective than I. His description of the situation is quite accurate---as are his comments about a new GM or Univ. Pres. I am more emotional about it and surely urge people not to support those kind of stations. I know I stopped supporting WNYC when they changed their format just like that.   I still listen to the programs there that I always did---but the ones I supported are gone and so am I.

I would, however, disagree with Ron about "FUV is now one of the most listened to Public radio Stations in the country". From my understanding---I stand to be corrected---they do not show up on any ratings service in any signifigant position.   Did they get more underwriters---probably. Did they get "names" as hosts---sure. Did that help ratings---doubtful. Probably a trade off with what they cancelled. Now, WNYC has, from what I hear when tuned in, gotten a slew of underwriters that take up plenty of time now during a broadcast hour---almost like commercial radio with a softer sell.

Like the "Swift Boat" business we are probably giving FUV more "ink" than this is worth since it is really just a local station---and WNYC probably has 10 times (for want of a large number) than they do in this area.

In short---if one feels strongly --make sure you support the programs that you like and support them at whatever place they move to.

Ron may well be correct about Internet programming---perhaps I am a Luddite and feel that if it ever happens in any great numbers it is ages away---people still like to listen in a car and get local news and programming.

Speak for yourself, Bill---yep that I am


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 07:49 PM

Yes, you stand corrected Bill and yes, you are a Luddite!! :)

Arbitron does supply numbers for public radio. Because they are non-commercial, the Arbitron books do not include public radio since the books are meant to set ad dollars. Arbitron releases reports through the Radio Research Consortium.

Seriously, Bill is correct that WNYC-FM (total market cume of 708,400 in Spring 04 Arbitron) as well as WNYC-AM (total market cume of 501,500 in Spring 04 Arbitron)have more listeners than WFUV (total market cume of 311,200 in Spring 05 Arbitron). In the national Arbitron rankings of public radio stations, WFUV comes in at 21.   

Not that I enjoy defending our "competition", but FUV also has had transmitter issues in the past few years which has cut its range.

As for the internet, Arbitron dropped internet ratings in March because of issues tracking, but in the last rating, WFUV was #15. That was a rating of all markets obviously.

I think Bill misinterprets what I said. I am not encouraging anyone to listen or support WDET or any of these stations. What they did is wrong. They fall into the same trap as the commercial radio stations - trying to reach most ears possible. That does not help those that enjoy specialty radio programs. For that the future, the near future, will mean satellite and internet and the handful of non-coms that do not cave in.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:00 PM

Looks like we are back to WFDU then.   Let us hope it stays where it is--the GM stays where he is and Presidents do not come and go. And---we are doing some "ink" now for FDU ----not the aforementioned for once.

Though, Ron, I am not a statistician, they did tell us at a meeting recently that our numbers (the station's) were up there with some of the competition---no names(call letters) this time. Hence no more "ink" for them.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:28 PM

We are "up there" with the other non-coms in the NYC area. WNYC, WBGO and WFUV are in a different league. There are a number of other college and public stations in the NYC market.

It ain't the meat, it's the motion!


I do apologize for discussing WFDU and the NYC market so much in this thread. Bill and I were using examples that we are familiar with to discuss the general state of public radio in this country. We did not mean to let it drift from the serious subject at hand - WDET, Matt Watroba and Larry McDaniel.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 09:46 PM

I don't think it was really drift, Ron--and your "insider" explanations helped us (as Vikki said) "mere listeners" understand the inner workings a bit better.

It doesn't make me any happier about the state of affairs at WDET, and I think they're wrong for doing it, but I can at least fathom some sort of reasoning here. (As you said, they may be stupid, but they aren't dumb.)

Still working on a plan of action for my pledge form, which is sitting on the dining room table---

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 10:35 PM

I'm with you Denise. I personally would not support WDET if they cancelled shows like this. Even if the management doesn't care, principle counts.

Personally, if ANY public radio station makes a decision that rankles you and the public, I would suggest finding out who the underwriters are. You can find this on most stations webpage or by listening (if you can stand it). Write to the underwriters.   Write to the university president if it is a college. If they are a public station, they might have a community board of volunteers that make their voices heard to the management. Also, keep an ear out for license renewal. People can complain to the FCC during that time period.   These are avenues where you can make your voice heard to people other than the evil cabal that made the decision.

Organized protests in the form of pickets can also scare the pants off of some of these empty suits.

Be a watchdog. Even in this age of corporate radio, voices still can make a difference - even if the odds are hugely against them. Some managers can't take the heat. You never know!

Admitedly, I have a stake in public radio. I am blessed to work for a station with university and management that realizes what a gem they have. We may not have the largest audience in NYC, but we have a very loyal and supportive one. It is humbling.   Even before I joined nearly 30 years ago, I realized what treasures could be heard on the radio dial. Those treasures may have been buried over the years, but if you search hard enough - you will be much richer!

Ron

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:52 PM

I soon realized that Ron and others are right.    After the intial outcry, people will get discouraged and the letters and comments will die down.    The only way to get them was in the pocketbook.

I also realized that a few letters from folkies and folk music organization would do little good.   Not enough money to worry about.   So I took a different tact.

I work for a 7 billion dollar corporation which is a large contributor to WDET.   I also know the person in charge of the foundation which distributes the money to non profit groups.   I sent her an e-mail with my concerns and asked her to consider dropping WDET from their funding.   I copied WDET on this correspondance.

If WDET felt their corporate funding was at jeopardy, they may think differently.    I am working with my company.   I know several other folkies in the Detroit area who work for Ford, GM, Daimler Chrysler, and other large companies.   I would urge any other person who has any connections to go that route and urge them to discontinue funding as they are not supporting the local community.   As they said in the movies- "follow the money"

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:37 PM

That is a brilliant move Larry!

I would say that everyone should continue to send letters and withold pledges as a protest, but Larry's tact is a PERFECT way of really sending the message home. It will take more than just Larry's e-mail to do that, and a few angry letters to the right person will send up the alarm.

Good luck!!!

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: maire-aine
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:17 PM

Great idea, Larry. Here's a link to station underwriters . The company I work for isn't on this list, but my bank is, so I'll write to them.

M

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Devilmaster
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:39 AM

Maire-aine, I noticed that the Capitol is on the list also.

I sent them a letter, and I'm asking if you could also. I don't know if Cas McGeown knows yet, but he could be a good ally in this.

Steve

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:17 PM

Larry – well done! As has been said, no doubt they are expecting letters of protest and a big fuss... at first, but that doesn't hit 'em where it hurts (like the joke about the guy hitting the donkey with a 2-by-4: "First, you have to get its attention...)

The other thing that occurs to me is that if enough others follow suit – enough to actually get 'DET worried, that it may well prove a precedent and might even be something that other Public Radio stations keep in mind if they are considering similar changes in the future.

So... even if 'DET doesn't bring back these shows – out of pride (or whatever), you can bet that these stations all network with one another and take notes on what works & what doesn't; if they see a station actually lose serious money due to dropping folk shows, they may think twice if they are contemplating such a decision themselves. It could also inspire other folkies in the same situation to do more than just protest – however vehemently – in a manner that Public Radio stations seem more than happy to ignore.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM

Hopefully, an actual human will *read* Larry's letter, so that they CAN be worried!

Since all of us who wrote, initially, got the same verbatim form letter as a response, I have my suspicions about what they do with e-mail.

I do think that Larry's move was a good one--every bit helps, I think!

...and I plan to print out my original e-mail letter, and stick it in an envelope and mail it to them. I think it might have a better chance of actually being noticed, that way...

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: maire-aine
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

will do

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:14 PM

I am no Howard Stern fan, but...I was encouraged by his announcement that he is leaving "old" radio for the new technology. His move carries considerable weight (given his loyal fan base of scatologically impared adolescent men, ages 18 - 34), and could help propel the new medium--satellite radio--into widespread use. I don't need another monthly payment, but if his move emboldens others and there is a critical mass, I would get the special receiver and pay the money so I could hear Matt and some of the other voices that are currently being blocked outright or severely limited by the broadcast industry and its regulatory handmaiden, the FCC.   

After witnessing the sad decline of NPR and its utter disregard for its PAYING, LOYAL listeners for going on 20 years, now, I sincerely hope they are quaking in their boots, notwithstanding the few remaining folk shows that have not yet been given the heave-ho. In fact, I am going to send (yet another) letter to them pointing out that they need to shape up in light of this. Yeah, that's what I'll do, for all the good it'll do.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,andymather
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:23 PM

Thanks for the list, marie-aine. Here's a sample letter (I've sent out a few)

Sheila Vanfield
Corporate Contributions
Bank One of Michigan
611 Woodward Avenue
MI1-8038
Detroit, MI 48226


5 October, 2004


Ms. Vanfield,

I read that your organization is a sponsor of WDET FM, Wayne State University's public radio station. I want to thank you for that support, as WDET has been a great champion of American music, especially local folk, bluegrass, and acoustic varieties not widely represented on the airwaves. As an organization we have also given generously to the radio station, in addition to our individual memberships and gifts. Our mutual support has also funded great programming like "Fresh Air," "This American Life," and the hilarious "Car Talk" show. The station has rightfully been proud of its award-winning line-up, made possible by members, organizations like Paint Creek, and by major sponsors like Bank One.

Unfortunately, WDET management has suddenly cancelled all of this programming. Yes, really. Shows that played for over 15 years were eliminated with less than 48 hours notice to hosts, and none to listeners. Do not be misled by the station's rosy press releases – they have drastically reduced the value of their product, and done so in a most embarrassing manner. We are withdrawing our support for the station, and encourage others to do so. As a Bank One account holder and active community member, I urge you, too, to reexamine the value of any continued investment in WDET, and disassociate your fine company from this fiasco.

Sincerely,


Andrew Mather
President Emeritus
Paint Creek Folklore Society
46020 Spring Lane #204
Shelby Twp., Michigan 48317

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:22 AM

Matt Watroba is substituting as folk DJ at

http://www.wjffradio.org/

It's a station out of New York, and is available as a webcast...

It's from 11:00-1:00 today; I just found out about it.

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM

Great letter, Andy--
I'm sure you won't mind if I 'borrow' bits and pieces to send to a few other such underwriters?

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:06 PM

It was great to hear Matt. He did a great job! I happened to find it while I was surfing to find a "folk fix". I logged on to 'Cat to tell everyone, and lo and behold, denise:^) beat me to it.

Great stuff. And I understand he is going to substitute next week as well.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 03:43 AM

Next week, too? Glad I saw your post...he must have mentioned it while I was in one of my "your connection has timed out" phases... (that's the only pain about listening to a radio show with a dial-up connection; I may have to invest in better service if all of our folk music is going to be online from now on!)

denise:^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM

I see by my newspaper that WDET won't be using volunteers to answer its pledge drive telephones this year. Instead they've contracted with a company in Utah. They knew it'd be an uphill struggle to recruit folks from the community, seeing as how they've antagonized so many of us. Interesting, no?

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 08:46 PM

Andy – BRILLIANT letter! Well done! And SO well written! Hope you've been sharing it with other Paint Creekers, like maybe in Keepin' Tabs?

May borrow bits of it myself...

Cheers, YY (Please give my best to Caylynn!)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 12:12 PM

Matt Watroba's coming in loud and clear on the computer from WJFF. He says he'll be on again next week (Oct. 23) 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. Thanks, Denise, for the heads-up.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Marty Dorough
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:37 PM

Maybe. . . . Just maybe. . . WDET didn't like the underlying christian gospel bluegrass & folk music that was mixed into Larry and Matts shows.
Just maybe. . . it didn't line up with their open gay love and their support of abortion. Just maybe? Don't know? Naw, that wouldn't explain
Car Talk though. Gonna' miss Matt and Larry badly, they were the very
best thing about WDET. I'll watch for both of them to resurface.

I'll pray for Matt & Larry's quick return. Life's too short to live without good folk and bluegrass. Until then I'll have to get my fix
with the "Folk Tradition & Folk Sampler" on WCAR. Not the same though.

Hang in there Matt & Larry, help is on the way.

Pal Marty

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:32 AM

Marty, this is a trend. It has nothing to do with liking or not liking the underlying themes. It has everything to do with them abandoning the basic philosophy upon which Public Radio was created. They have gone for a more commercial direction, and it is one more nail in the coffin of outlets for folks to hear traditional works.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:05 AM

Good news. We have our program back!!
WEMU-FM, 89.1, the public station in Ypsilanti, will begin airing Matt Watroba's "Folks Like Us" 2:00-5:00 Saturday afternoons, beginning Dec. 4.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:09 AM

Cool Beans, let us know when they have their fundraising drive. I want to make sure I support this station. Do they stream on the web?

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:32 AM

CB, and others. Linda Yohn is the name from the WEMU website that one directs comments to. I have just sent her and email indicating how grateful I am that they picked up this fine show. I also asked that they add me to the list of folks to contact for future fundraising drives. Her email addy is:

[e-mail]

for those of you who would like to do the same.

They do live streaming.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Karen M.
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:59 PM

Good news stumbled across while surfing:

WEMU, in Ypsilanti (the "Y" is silent) has picked up Matt's program. 2-5 pm on Saturdays, says the Detroit Free Press.

I've e-mailed the music director (a long-time buddy) for verification, since it's not on their website yet. www.wemu.org. http://www.wemu.org/listen.html

--Karen Missavage
who pledged one dollar to WDET; it'll cost them more than that to process it

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Karen M.
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:09 PM

Gosh, you folks are fast!

WEMU's fund drive was during the same time frame as WDET and WUOM and all the rest. (Some years ago NPR figured out that we *really* don't like to listen to pledge periods, and if they all run the beg-a-thon simulataneously there's no escape.)

After I threw $1 at WDET, I rang up WEMU. (I no longer live in metro Detroit, and was driving home to Grand Rapids at the time.) While WDET did not read a thank-you on air (probably because the phone answerers were in West Bombay), their friends down the street milked this for all it was worth. "If someone from **Grand Rapids** can pledge, you can too!!"

Interestingly, WEMU deleted a popular progam a couple of years ago, and that host found a local commercial station willing to pick him up. www.thayrone.com.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

Karen M, where are you at in Grand Rapids? I am from the area and involved in the folk community there. Drop me a line at [e-mail].

I received this back already from WEMU:

Hello Mick,

Thanks for writing! Welcome to WEMU. We're welcoming Matt with open arms (and ears!) and all of the wonderful people who listen to his show. We know it's going to be great for Matt, WEMU and for you.

Again, thanks for writing.

Linda

Linda Yohn
WEMU Music Director
[e-mail]
734.487.2229
www.emich.edu

If you good folks would, drop them a line and let them know how much you appreciate what they have done.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 02:25 AM

I should have known that the news had already reached Mudcat, but I thought I'd check, anyway!

Now I have to see if Ypsilanti radio can reach all the way to St. Clair Shores.

(Will you be able to get it in GR, Karen?)

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: denise:^)
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 02:41 AM

WCAR? Where is WCAR?

Did a Google search, and all I could find was "Michigan Catholic Radio, WCAR, 1090 AM, Detroit..."

That can't be it, can it? (They sure don't list any folk programming!)

Hmmmmmmmm...........

denise :^)

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:28 AM

Denise, if you go back to my post, you will find a link to the station.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Karen M.
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Denise wrote:

   Nope. Too many "big sticks" in Southfield. You might be able to get it bouncing, on your car radior.

<(Will you be able to get it in GR, Karen?)

   Can't even get it much past Fowlerville, let alone Lansing. Going south, it fades somewhere near Milan. ('EMU was my forst choice radio station for years. Listen to them on the day before Ash Wednesday to truly appreciate them.)

   Webcast is your friend!

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Karen M.
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

http://www.wemu.org/hosts_watroba.html

FLU is not yet in the program schedule, but it's only a matter of time before the on-air promos hit.

As it happens, I have a Civil War ball event (I call dances) on the other side of the EMU campus that evening. So before the final lilting strains of Stan Rogers and "Ashokan Farewell" and the "Bunkhouse song" fade away, I will be on the steps of King Hall with my re-doubled pledge.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Cool Beans
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:23 PM

WEMU comes in all static-y on my car radio in and around Detroit. Anyone have advice on improving my reception?

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Karen M. (former Ypsi resident)
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:55 PM

CB wrote:
WEMU comes in all static-y on my car radio in and around Detroit. Anyone have advice on improving my reception?

Get yourself west of Telegraph and south of about 14 Mile. (When I drive in from GR I start getting clear reception about Howell, and once I'm past I-275 things go downhill fast.)

When I moved back to the metro (Dearborn) I'd go sit in the car in order to hear "Wait Wait" at 11 am. Car had much better reception than home. Westland picks up the dulcet tones of Linda, Art, Joe, Michael x 2 et al much better.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: IvanB
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:58 PM

denise, WCAR should be WKAR, Michigan State University's FM station. Their folk programming runs mainly from 6:00-10:00 pm on Sunday evenings. It's at 90.5 on the dial if you're within reach of the signal, also webcast at http://wkar.org/.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,former DET fan
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:23 PM

Great that Matt W will be on WEMU.   What about Larry McDaniel? Will he keep doing his great show?

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,Karen M. (incredulous)
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

Matt just sent this out:
...
When I was forced out of WDET, I lost about one third of my CD library. For the first 14 years or so of my run at WDET I checked EVERYTHING into their library...even stuff I purchased or was sent directly to me. WDET was kind enough to give me some of it back, but they held on to most of it. ...

and he's asking for donations. (He says he doesn't even own any Stan Rogers. Still downtown on Cass Ave.) WEMU used to have a folk library, but they unloaded it during a big sale during a Heritage Festival some years back. (Lots of LPs, remember those?)

Of course I sent it to [e-mail].

Fulfilling my "pledge" was enormously satisfying. I took markers and wrote "Folks Like Us" and "Arkansas Traveler" on the $1.00 bill. Hope they spend it well.

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: GUEST,john in avoca
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:35 AM

Larry will surely be missed, I started listening to him back in 1982 I think,it was after another bluegrass program by carl vanover was cancelled on WCXI am Just another of the long line of "different" programs that have fallen by the wayside like WJR's Night Flight 76 or WRIF's wrif rock cafe. WJR's patterns in music and wdet's dropping of a prairie home companion to make room for more of the same cookie cutter programming with no originality, personality or ambiance of those fantastic radio programs of days gone by. good luck Larry, and thank you for the great memories and music of days gone by

Subject: RE: Obit: Folk, bluegrass radio in Detroit
From: Devilmaster
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:39 AM

And after 15 months, the phoenix shall rise from the ashes....