BS: The Paralympics

Subject: BS: The Paralympics
From: nutty
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:44 PM

Every night for the past week we have been treated to the inspiring sight of disabled athletes doing amazing things and overcoming tremendous obstacles to compete in the Paralympics in Athens.

Unfortunately coverage is only 6 - 7.30 each evening on BBC2, which compared to the coverage of the main Olympics seems rather miserly.
However, it appears that Britain is one of the few countries to give these games any coverage.

Is this true? How much are you getting to see in your part of the world??

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:15 PM

Nuthin' here (Seattle, Washington, U.S.A.) on either the national or the local news. Not a peep.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Teresa
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:26 PM

The paralympics in Oz had a website set up for webcasting, but I haven't seen any sign of webcasting this time around.

One game that is played is goal-ball. I'm told it's funny to look at, because there are all these blind folk rolling all over the floor. It's kind of like soccer (football) but the whole body is used, and you go after a large ball that has bells in it.

In local tournaments, anyone can play, but sighted folk must wear blindfolds. ;)

I'd love to try it sometime, myself.

T

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 07:43 PM

The cheating at the real Olympics itself is bad enough.

When people in the Paralympics pretend to be more disabled than they really are to get it to categories where they have a better chance of winning - it is time for a serious re-think.

The honests efforts to achieve wonderful things is all placed at risk when competition and winning becomes THE most important aspect.

Let's face it, the people that win at all sporting contest are those who are just that bit fitter than the rest. By all means encourage everyone to take part in whatever sporting activity they wish to and invent as many ways of involving as many people as possible to take part - just don't build-up the competition aspects.

This only encourages folk ultimate failure. At this level the Paralympics are doomed. The fact is that the Olympics thrive because manufacturers wish to be associated with the winners. The more attractive these winners are - the better.

The winners at the paralympics probably deserve far better but because of their disabilities - manufacturers do not really want their products to be associated with them. To promote the event, photographers will always choose the more attractive i.e' those less disabled or less disfigured - for their photos. And so on.

The way forward is probably to incorporate the disabled events into the Olympics proper and to use this to show the equipment and many opportunities there are for everyone to take part in sport. Let's just not encourage the 'winning at all costs' idea any more than we have to.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: nutty
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:02 AM

Shambles ....is there anything in life that you are not negative about????

Have you been watching the same programs as me?

I certainly haven't heard of any cheating and given that the disabilities of the majority of competitors (particularly the amputees) is very obvious, it would be difficult for them to pretend greater disability.

I have certainly been encouraged by this 'warts and all' coverage. When someone is wearing nothing but a swimming costume, it is impossible to make them 'prettier' than they already are.

Over 4000 competitors from over 140 countries are taking part and it would be nice if countries could celebrate the achievements of these disabled athletes.

Hopefully by raising awareness like this, people can complain to their own media about the lack of coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:25 AM

Shambles wrote: "The way forward is probably to incorporate the disabled events into the Olympics proper and to use this to show the equipment and many opportunities there
are for everyone to take part in sport. Let's just not encourage the 'winning at all costs' idea any more than we have to."

It's a nice idea, but ... well, I'm at my very most cynical here ... ain't gonna happen.   Perhaps outside the Olympics proper, in local events, is where some of the true wonders can be found.

The Special Olympics used to be all about fun and the joy of being an athlete. Rivals would hug each other after events, etc.

Now it is totally different.

Even in the "regular" Olympics, you have separate "men's" and "women's" events. So I don't see integrated disabled folk anytime soon.

I don't remember the athlete's name, but in the Olympics, there was a long-jumper who had to "pass" for a totally sighted person. she was very visually impaired, and was not allowed to use the red tape to mark the starting line, so she had to "guess". I don't know how it came out, but certainly, she was courageous for doing her best, and yet, she didn't have a chance of "winning".

Ah well, I'm ranting a bit. :) I guess something just hit a nerve. The Olympics are for competitors on a fair playing ground, and I'm just for having fun. :)

T

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:28 AM

(I'm sorry about the cutting and pasting thing. I'll try to figure that one out so it's not so rag-tag next time. :) )

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:07 AM

While I think it is marvellous that the disabled are doing sports, why do people want to watch them? They are not atheletes. Any fully abled person is fitter than any disabled person simply by being fully abled. Watching a fully abled athelete is an inspiring and impressive sight. Watching someone is a wheelchair in a race or someone with only one arm swimming inspires pity for the person's disablility. Why not a Mastermind for the mentally ill?

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:45 AM

Shambles ....is there anything in life that you are not negative about????

Have you been watching the same programs as me?

I certainly haven't heard of any cheating and given that the disabilities of the majority of competitors (particularly the amputees) is very obvious, it would be difficult for them to pretend greater disability.

It is possible here to address and even to disgree with a point of view without making personal judgements of a poster you do not know anything about.

To say that you have not heard of the cheating to which I refer is not to say it is not happening. There are many categories in these events. These are very specific and there are many well-documented cases of competitors claiming certain medical conditions in order to win against those who really do suffer from them.

I am very positive about encouraging folk to take part in sport and many other things. Encouraging the ruthless will to win at all cost in some people is about as necessary as encouraging others to post just to be judgemental and pedantic and feel this is respectable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:58 AM

http://www.accessibility.com.au/news/sport/para_cheat.htm

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1137&id=1089962004

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

a note to english patriot. It may interest you to know that in Olympic recurve archery, handicapped and disabled archers do compete (and very often win) against able-bodied archers. Not all handicaps make realistic competition impossible, although as my archery coach (who is wheelchair-bound) good-humouredly observes, he wouldn't fancy his chances in the high jump. Its a matter of what people can achieve not whether they look "beautiful" doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:35 AM

First, to the question of this thread: The German TV news bring each day a short (2 min) coverage, the sports channels cover them and the sports programmes in the normal channels bring them a bit but there is no extra programme in the normal channels.

Any fully abled person is fitter than any disabled person simply by being fully abled. (English Patriot)

The winner of the 100 m run of the leg amputated did run quicker on his protheses than I ever did when I was young. The Olympic champion in arm amputated table tennis plays in the German second or third league with the normal players. That means he plays better TT than each of us here.

I think it is a good thing they start cheating and doping. That means they are in the middle of our societies and that's where they belong to. Some of the German gold medalists will be seen in advertising. For their achievements are something also not disabled persons can relate with and admire in the context.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 10:36 AM

I don't have a TV so am unable to say what coverage we have here, but I haven't had to turn off the radio as I did while the Olympics were on cos of excessive coverage of that event. As far as I'm concerned all sport coverage is excessive!!

I'm also on leave so am not seeing the newszpapers we get at work, tho I do remember something in the Sunday paper regarding an entire team that cheated in the 2000 Olympics. I think they were not disabled (except that their sense of fair play was not enabled)

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:45 PM

I think it is a good thing they start cheating and doping. That means they are in the middle of our societies and that's where they belong to.

Now there is an interesting concept. I aways thought that law-breaking was anti-social. Now when you are robbed by a disabled mugger - it is not a crime so much - just a welcome sign of an inclusive society?

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:49 PM

We're people, too. We can be a**holes, just like anyone else. And we can be courageous, just like anyone else. And we can be ordinary, just like anyone else.

T

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: nutty
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:59 PM

Shambles ....your links are somewhat out of date and bear little relationship to what is actually happening.

No one at the games has been disqualified for drug taking and having watched an athlete with no legs win a sprint event and a swimmer with no arms win a freestyle event, I find it hard give any credence to your assertion about athletes pretending to be more disabled than they really are in order to get an easier catagorisation.

Getting back to my original comment, I applaud the BBC for their coverage, for showing things as they are, for giving encouragement to people who are achieving great things despite the horrendous hurdles they have to overcome.

Hopefully, one outcome of this exposure will be that society in general will be more tolerant of disability and not see it as something to be sniggered or stared at.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:18 PM

I reckon he chopped his legs off, just so he could go to the paralyimpics, and claim disablity benefit.
Disabilty benefit is about £10 a week more than dole money, you have to watch these fidling buggers!

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:54 PM

I can't let this go. Prepare for a lengthy rant.

GUEST,An English Patriot, if all people had the attitude that you seem to express, and if you carried that attitude to its logical conclusion, then people with disabilities would be hidden away upstairs, or in back bedrooms, or in nursing homes, the way most were in centuries past—and until not that long ago. Some people don't like to have folks with disabilities around. Some people think folks with disabilities should be locked away because they don't like to look at someone who walks with crutches because they contracted polio, or someone in a wheelchair because they were in an automobile accident and suffered a spinal cord injury, or someone who speaks haltingly and whose movements are uncoordinated because they were born with cerebral palsy. I believe some people find the presence of disabled folks disturbing because somewhere in their subconscious, it reminds them of their own vulnerability.

I know something about this because I had polio when I was two years old and walked with a leg brace and aluminum forearm crutches all my life, then had to take to a wheelchair fifteen years ago because all that walking with crutches (every step was a push-up) wore out my shoulder joints. But despite this cruel trick of nature, I've lived—and am still living—a rich, full life. Including being an athlete, competing, not in Special Olympics type events (they hadn't been started yet), but in regular tournaments for able-bodied athletes.

When I was fourteen years old, due to overdosing on Rafael Sabatini novels and Errol Flynn movies, I wanted to learn to fence so bad I could taste it. But this was obviously impossible for me. One evening I went to a fencing class at the local YMCA, just to watch. While I was there, the instructor, Katherine Modrell, came over to talk to me between lessons. I told her that I was just watching. I said that I would really love to be able to fence, but of course, I knew I couldn't. Then Katherine spoke a very important sentence, at least important to me. She said, "Well, let's see what you can do." Not "Forget it!" but "Let's see what you can do."

I needed to use one crutch for support, but I managed to assume an upright, straight-legged approximation of the fencing position. We found that, from this position, I could actually move forward and backward a little. But I was not able to lunge. I couldn't carry a really aggressive attack to my opponent. However, my opponent, to win, would have to carry the attack to me. Katherine reasoned that if my adversary were close enough to hit me, I was close enough to hit him. This called for tactics. Above all, I had to develop a solid defensive game:   parries and parry combinations had to be swift and unpredictable, ripostes fast and accurate, and counterattacks shrewdly prepared and precisely timed. Considering the vigorous footwork that characterizes most fencing matches, just standing and slugging it out worked remarkably well for me.

For the next ten or a dozen years I took lessons from several fencing instructors, and learned to handle all three weapons, foil, saber, and épée. I fenced about three times a week and after a couple of years, I found that I could hold my own with just about anyone. I won as many bouts as I lost. I had been told not to enter regular tournaments because things could get pretty rough sometimes. But on a trip to San Francisco, I took some lessons from Hans Halberstadt, who was the Olympic coach at the time. There was a competition during the few weeks I was there. I planned to watch it because the competitors included one three-time National Champion and two members of the Olympic Team. Halberstadt insisted that I enter. I was sure I would get creamed, but I did as he told me. I tangled with some of the best fencers in the country and believe it or not, I wound up in a tie for third place, then in the fence off, I won one bout and lost one bout. I ended up in fourth place. Not too bad for a first competition. And for a kid leaning on a crutch.

Halberstadt said, "Most fencers waste a lot of energy dashing up and down the strip, but what matters is the head and the hand. Fencing is a game of strategy. A cunning brain and a quick hand will defeat fast legs every time."

When I returned to Seattle, much to the apprehension of a few people, I began entering regular tournaments, including the Pacific International, that drew fencers from the whole Pacific Coast and Western Canada. I never won a championship, but I have a very satisfying collection of second and third place medals and trophies.

My devotion to folk music gradually replace my interest in fencing, and I haven't crossed blades with anyone (except verbally) in decades. I must say, I do miss it.

"Any fully abled person is fitter than any disabled person simply by being fully abled."

I am living proof that this is not true. It certainly didn't prevent me from racking up the medals. And when I was fencing several times a week, I was a helluva lot fitter than most supposedly "able-bodied" people. By the way, my shoulders are shot, but you want to arm-wrestle?

"Watching someone in a wheelchair in a race or someone with only one arm swimming inspires pity for the person's disability."

I don't think anyone pitied me. If any fencer I crossed blades with started out by feeling pity for me because I leaned on a crutch and couldn't lunge, he soon learned a sharp lesson that his pity was misplaced. If I do say so myself (and judging from what many people, including a newspaper sports columnist told me), I inspired admiration rather than pity for overcoming my disabilty and pursuing the sport that I loved.

And regarding my performances as a singer:   I had a guitar student who told me that the first time he saw me was when he came to one of my concerts. A friend of his had talked about me a lot and said that I was pretty good. "I was surprised when I saw you walk out on stage on crutches," he said, "because my friend talked about your singing and guitar playing, but he never mentioned that you use crutches." He told me this many months after that concert, and we had become good friends. He went on to say, "you know, I noticed your crutches a lot at first, but now I realize that they are no more significant to you than the fact that I have to wear glasses is signifcant to me."

Glasses are so common that most people don't even notice it when someone else is wearing them. BUT—myopia and other optical disabilities could prevent a person from leading a normal life. Glasses are just as much a prosthetic device as an artificial limb, or a pair of crutches, or a wheelchair. These devices compensate for a disability.

Don Firth

P. S.: As an aside, I watched quite a bit of fencing at the regular Olympics, and frankly, I thought it stank. When I was fencing, the idea was to simulate an actual duel. You attempted to hit your opponent without being hit, the same as you would if the encounter were with real, unblunted swords. It would be a rather hollow victory to run your adversary through, only to be skewered by him a split second later. As you lay there coughing up blood, your life ebbed away, it wouldn't be much consolation to think, "but I hit him first." However, due to the advent of electrical scoring equipment and a change in rules, the first hit counts, even if the second hit comes 1/25 th of a second later (quicker than the eye can follow). I was amazed at the number of simultaneous hits that had to be thrown out. Nobody was even attempting to parry-riposte or use tactics, my stock in trade. They just tried to hit each other first. What should have been a display of skill, form, and strategy turned into a ridiculous jab-fest. It would make a big difference (and make it more like the real thing) if, instead of throwing out the simultaneous hits, they scored them as a double loss.

I wonder what would have happened to one of these supposed best fencers in the world if their ferocious attack ran into a double counter-quarte—septime followed by a direct riposte?

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 05:02 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, Don.

I had a yoga instructor much like your first fencing teacher. There were about seven people in the class, and in order to show both them and me, she gently moved my body into the various postures. She had a natural ease with me--she told me she had never taught a disabled person before. It was amazing. That is how we conducted the class. gradually, she moved my limbs less and less, and I was able to memorize the different postures if she indicated them verbally. Good teachers are so very important. :)

T

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM

In some cases those individuals with disabilites ae as good or better than those without in sports. The Paralympics has a lot to do with using the devices such as artificial limbs, wheelchairs, etc. that aid the person accomplish what he or she wishes to accomplish. The state of running limbs has gotten to the point where they are quite competative with real legs because of their lightness, and their springiness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:04 PM

hello,
disabeld people get free dogs, thats not fair, its rasist, tyhey should give free hamsters to non disabled people.
i reckon some of them just pretend to be sisabled , so they don't haf to buy a dog.

and them asilum seekers get free cars, i know this, because big dave in the pub told me, [he knows about this type of thing].

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:25 PM

Don, if that was a "rant", it was the most appropriate and effective "rant" I've heard lately. If I have tears in my eyes, it's not because I think you need any damned pity.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:21 AM

Shambles ....your links are somewhat out of date and bear little relationship to what is actually happening.

No one at the games has been disqualified for drug taking and having watched an athlete with no legs win a sprint event and a swimmer with no arms win a freestyle event, I find it hard give any credence to your assertion about athletes pretending to be more disabled than they really are in order to get an easier catagorisation.

From my link (dated 16 September 2004)

PARALYMPICS boss Phil Craven today warned of a zero-tolerance policy towards drugs cheats after he was confronted with the first doping scandal of the Athens Games before the event has even started.

The missed drugs test controversy surrounding Greek sprint icons Kostas Kenteris and Katerina Thanou was just one of a number of doping scandals to rock the Olympics last month.

It is a problem many would not have expected to feature on the agenda at the Paralympics.

But on the eve of the Opening Ceremony Craven, the International Paralympic Committee president, was forced to put forth his views on the darker side of sport following the revelation of a positive drugs test from a Canadian athlete and Sydney silver medallist.

Earle Connor, one of the world's top Paralympic athletes, won't be competing at the Games in Athens after he tested positive for trace amounts of testosterone and nandrolone in an out-of-competition test on August 23.

Craven, whose welcome press conference was hi-jacked by a Canadian journalist, was embarrassingly forced to admit he didn't know about the case and refused to speculate on what effect the fact that such a high-calibre Paralympian was involved in doping would have on the Games.

"I can assure you I was not aware of that case but as I have said before the IPC has a zero tolerance policy towards doping," said Craven. "It doesn't matter which athlete it is, that is cheating and has got to not happen."

The 28-year-old Connor, who won a 200m silver medal in 2000, was one of Canada's top medal hopes in Athens and was to be one of three finalists to carry the Canadian flag in tomorrow's opening ceremony.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: nutty
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:49 AM

I did read the article Shambles (so there was no need to copy it in full) and it referred to something that had happened before the Paralympics took place.

The other link led to an article that was written in 2002 and was regarding incidents that had happened as far back as 1992.

Aa stated, a similar (drugs related) thing happened at the main games but not all competitors were tarred with the same brush then, so why should such an incident be of major importance now.

Also, your comments were not relevant to the original question posed by my thread which was about the media coverage being given to the games.
If you would like to make a comment on that aspect of the games (presuming that you have watched them) then I would be interested to hear what you thought.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:19 AM

Nutty

Given your total misrepresentation - I felt that it was necessary to copy the article to allow folk (who may not have read it) to judge for themselves whether a 16 September 2004 report had "little relationship to what is actually happening," and a later article for background support.

What I think (which is why I posted what I did) is that the coverage reflects this (tainted) view of the Paralympics. It is a little unfair and very sad on the honest efforts of many fine alethetes - but that is the way it is. A lot of the attraction for the programme makers, is for theses disabled competitors to be seen as brave and inspiring in overcoming their disabilities with honest effort. As a result, their cheating (even if only by an small minority) is a lot more damaging than all the cheating in the Oylimpics and in sport generally.

The BBC coverage is usually on when I am out working. My work is with many who would be eligble to compete in the Paralympics and although I work in their homes at the time of the BBC coverage - I have yet to see any of this coverage on their TVs either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:53 AM

Shambles,
Teresa has given my response already.

I don't like the mugger, cheater, doper, be she disabled or not. But to find roughly the same percentage of people whose actions you do not like is actually a sign that this group is in the middle of our society.

Positive discrimination may be well meant but is as unhealthy as negative discrimination of a group. That's why I am gald they have found dopers and cheaters at the paralympics.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: nutty
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:00 AM

There are good and bad in all walks of life, so I fail to see how a disabled cheat is more damaging than an able-bodied one.

I have to differ with your opinions,Shambles, I don't believe I was misrepresenting the point of view I just didn't believe that it was relevant to the question that was posed.

I taught disabled young people for 30 years and fought against discrimination in it's many guises. I am full of admiration for Don and Teresa for fighting their personal battles.

I am delighted to see the achievements of the disabled reported in such an open and positive way.

I would like to see much more of the same, not just something that happens once every 4 years.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:31 AM

There are good and bad in all walks of life, so I fail to see how a disabled cheat is more damaging than an able-bodied one.

I ask myself - why would some folk feel MORE let-down by cheating in the Paralympics? And myself answers:

We don't really know the right thing to do or the right way to feel with people with (apparent) disabilities. In honesty it is clear that those with disabilities do not really know (or agree) either. Despite everyone's best intention the correct approach is something that is always changing and we will probably never get it right. For everyone – even and probably especially those with disabilities – are all different.

I suspect the main problem here is even thinking that there is one acceptable approach to any individual with a disability. For there is no one acceptable approach to those without (apparent) disability, other than being polite and showing respect.

With the Paralympics, everyone seems to think this should be encouraged as a jolly good thing – but is it really? With the TV coverage, in order to 'sell' the games, there is a little unrealistic expectation built-up – especially by TV commentators who do not normally deal with disabled competitions. The competitors (simply because they are disabled) are generally are viewed by them as exceptional and the winners almost as saintly….. When being disabled or struggling to overcome the limitations placed on you by this alone , does not of course make you a better person. In truth these top disabled competitors probably have a lot more in common with other Olympic athletes than with their fellow disabled competitors and non-competitors.

I think that folk generally feel that their best (if confused) intentions are being exposed and thrown back at them when these competitors are just shown to be as fallible and as human as everyone else. That these confused feelings of compassion are being taken advantage of.

If I can be allowed for one moment to be as judgmental as everyone else is now seemingly encouraged to be. It is bit like our friend in Hull being tolerated by writing hurtful things here and pretending to be stupid and to have trouble with their words. When folk eventually realise that this poster is perfectly able to express themselves without any of this pretence – they may feel a little cheated – and in a similar way?

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: nutty
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:06 AM

Shambles posting 7.19am

The BBC coverage is usually on when I am out working. My work is with many who would be eligble to compete in the Paralympics and although I work in their homes at the time of the BBC coverage - I have yet to see any of this coverage on their TVs either.


...... As on your own admission you have not even watched the coverage of the games, I can only conclude that your opinions are based on second sight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:50 AM

I am a totally worthless person - you have proved this - so what?

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:42 AM

I have seen some of the coverage of these events in the Athens Olympics proper but I did catch some of the the coveage last night, so the charge of having second sight can be set at someone else's door. There may even be an event for those with second sight but I will settle for being lucky enough to be able to see at all.

The style of the BBC coverage has not changed since the last coverage.

Is there any reason why the so-called 'wheelchair' races cannot be an official Olyimpic event - and open to all? The 'chariots' used are now so specialised as to have little resemblance to wheelchairs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:21 AM

Not an official olympic event, Shambles, but it sure would be interesting to see the folks who've been in chairs for years beating the pants off the "able-bodied" folk. ;) :D

Of course that might be about as fun as watching disabled folk try the able-bodied events ... :-p

I just did a google search for Paralympic coverage, and there are some neat sites on the Australia 2000 coverage, but not a peep on this year's.

T

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:55 PM

I fear that whatever we may think, that the Paralympics as we know them are probably doomed. You pointed out events where all can compete on a level basis and I think that encouraging competition in these kind of events are the way forward.

The 'wheelchair' events - well a least the straight line sprints anyway - are exciting to watch now - the added interest of non-disabled competitors would only make it more so. I suspect that it would also add to the interest of those wishing to take part?

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 06:53 PM

I've heard tell of games of wheelchair basketball in which disabled athletes competed against able-bodied athletes. The rule was that everybody, including the able-bodied team, had to use wheelchairs. I'll give you three guesses as to who creamed whom.

This is not to imply that disabled athletes are intrinsically any better than able-bodied athletes, but in addition to ball handling and such, wheelchair basketball requires that one be able to maneuver a wheelchair deftly as well. That's a skill in itself. So, given a "level playing field. . . ."

I knew a wheelchair basketball player several decades ago. I never saw him play, but I was amazed at some of the things he could do with his chair. This was before there were such things as curb ramps, but the lack of them didn't slow him down. He'd take a run at a curb, pop a wheelie at just the right moment, and hop up on the sidewalk. I also saw him go down a flight of about six steps. Again, he popped a wheelie, rolled down on his rear wheels, and landed flat, safe and sound. Not something I care to try.

My wife has a cousin who had a spinal chord injury some years ago. Chuck's done some wheelchair racing (in fact, he was one of the wheelchair racers in one episode of Northern Exposure). In addition to wheelchair racing, he owns a mono-ski, and he's so good with the thing that, at one of the local ski areas, he's on the ski rescue patrol. Up there every weekend, digging other skiers out of snow banks.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:41 AM

The skills shown in handling these machines is really something. However, I suppose the difference would only be known in an integrated 'wheelchair' race - should there be a crash or something went wrong. The non-disabled competitor would be able to walk-away.

The Athens Olympics featured a race where there was a crash and one of the competitors was thrown from their chair and lay helpless on the track for a short while. This was handled pretty well and I don't think there was any serious injury but it was clear that the commentators did not really know how handle this situation or know what to say. So they tried not to say too much and avoid the incident.

We have gotten used to close-up shots of competitors in pain and hobbling after falls and of the commentators going into great detail about the extent of the injury, the cause of the accidents and who was to blame - the lack of all this in the 'wheelchair' race was noticable - I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:27 AM

Congratulations to the British Paralymipc team, nearly 100 medals won, 35 of them gold!

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:58 AM

SUPERB. That wheelchair basketball looks scarey. It should have had more coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Bagpuss
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:22 AM

Apologies if someone already mentioned this: the special olympic and the paralympics are two entirely different events. The special olympics emphasises taking part at whatever level you can, where the emphasis in the paralympics is on competition and being the best athlete when compared with others competing with simlar conditions as yourself. The paralympians do not want to be seen as brave people overcoming all the odds etc, they want to be seen as serious athletes. When they fuck up they want commentators to criticise them, not to say how well they have done to even get there. They are sportspeople who wish to be treated as any other sports people would be. The fact that there have been a few drug cheats out there shows that winning is the important thing in the events, and therefore some people will try to take unfair advantage. Just as happens in able bodied sports. There were several interviews with competitors who esposed these beliefs.

There used to be categories for learning disabled people, but this has been abolished since Sydney when it was discovered that most of the Spanish basketball team were not learning disabled at all. So I think it is pretty fair to say that they are taking the cheating thing (of pretending to be more disabled than you are) more seriously. Athletes have to undergo a lot of physical tests to determine which category they should be competing in, which are difficult to fake. And if there are too few people in your category, you are moved into the less disabled category (one british athlete decided not to compete when this happened to her).

I really enjoyed watching the paralympics, and was really proud that Britain (with a relatively small population) came second only to china in the medal table. I thought it was shocking that the US didnt even have a camera crew there.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM

There was a TV programme this week (BBC Watchdog) where disabled folk in a various UK towns tried to do ordinary things like shopping and visiting the cinema. On the eve of legislation coming in to force that is to try and improve access to public places, it was sad to see how far there is still to go.

Perhaps our Paralympics sporting success will help to ensure that these measures for ordinary folk will now move a little faster? It would be nice if folk still did not have ring-up and plan shopping visits and eating-out, just to ensure that they can gain access.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:14 PM

Good point Shambles, I've just been contacted by someone asking wether the folk club I run [Hull Folk Club, Chanterlands Ave] is wheeechair friendly, unfortunately it isn't as the concert room we use is upstairs, and there is no lift or ramps.
Looks like we've lost a potential visitor, least we'll be safe from a Dalek invasion! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

All I'll say at this point is, I hope that the allegedly 'English' Patriot is thoroughly ashamed of 'Is worthless self. I've been every bit of proud of our Paralympians as I was of our Olympians, neither more nor less. Actually more, probably, considering they get nowhere near as much publicity or sponsorship as the Olympians.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:40 PM

Arseoles like him are best ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: nutty
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:53 PM

The Disability Discrimination Act has been in force for a number of years. The BBC programme was highlighting just how little had been done in the community at large to give disabled people equal access.

In some places (eg. theatres and cinemas) people in wheelchairs are still regarded as a fire risk.

Hopefully the exposure given to paralympic athletes may help to press home the need for the Act to be enforced.

I have to admit to having cursed Tanni Grey-Thompson when I nearly ran her down while she was out training in the early evening and had no lights on her wheelchair.

She laughed when I told her. She's a lovely lady and her daughter is an absolute dream.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 06:22 AM

The latest news from the BBC today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3706192.stm

It will be interesting to see if Tanni Grey Thompson follows Steve Redgrave and becomes the TV voice selling Admiral Insurance? She will probably have to put some lights on her wheeelchair first......

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 06:27 AM

The BBC TV Watchdog article can be seen on their website here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/thisweek/index2.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 08:34 PM

It seems my comments about disabled participants in the paralympics not being real athelets has pissed a lot of people off. This I expected, but without any disrespect to the disabled, I have read nothing here to change my mind. Since people have been courteous enough to respond to my posting, it is only fair that I should respond in kind.

"The winner of the 100 m run of the leg amputated did run quicker on his protheses than I ever did when I was young. "- Wolfgang. That may be true, but don't you think that if he could, he would much rather have his own leg, one that he didnt have to " screw" on everyday? Sport, and the Olympics in particular, is a celebration of the human body and its potential. A fit athelete who has won a gold medal is a man (or woman) who has honed his body until it is in the peak of perfection. He would never replace any part of his body. An entrant in the Paralympics, on the other hand, is still disabled. It seems ridiculous to watch people racing in wheel chairs and then comment on how much better they did than, say, the UK relay team in the proper olympics. Christalmighty, they can't even walk up the stairs without assistance. If they could cure their disablility, they would throw away their chairs and never give paralympics another thought. OK, archery may be different, but my main point still stands. Even a good archer would like to be able to stand on his own two legs without aid, surely.
   
I am not saying that "people with disabilities [sh]ould be hidden away upstairs, or in back bedrooms, or in nursing homes." I have nothing against the disabled living full lives. I do not believe that disabled people should be discriminated against or hidden away. They should, of course, be respected as individuals. However, to pretend that these people are something other than disabled just strikes me as an attempt to avoid an obvous truth. Don, you may win against me in an arm-wrestling competion, but I can get through each and every day without a crutch or wheelchair. I dont wear glasses, but if I did, I would not think that my short sightedness would be comparable to having to lean on a crutch. It just ain't comparing like with like.

To be blunt: You are disbled: I am not. You have to "overcome" your disablities. I do not.      

I would not enter Mastermind because, frankly, there are people cleverer than me (Oh God, have I just handed ammunition over to my enemies here!). I could, however, enter a comparable one at my local pub and invite all my friends to come down and watch. But I would not expect the BBC to come down and film it and then expect the public to treat it as if it was on the same level as Mastermind, and yet this is what people seem to do with the Parallympics. C'mon, lets have a bit of realism here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 01:36 AM

G'day English Patriot,

To be blunt: You are disbled: I am not. You have to "overcome" your disablities. I do not.

Put you money where your mouth is. Come to New Zealand, and climb Mt Cook. A couple of my mates did in 1982 - got caught in a crevasse for a couple of weeks, gotfrostbite and ended up legless. Like you, I'm 'abled' so get legless at the Pub. Both my mates have summitted Mt Cook minus legs - come and do the same with your undisabled legs.

In the early hours of this morning our NZ Wireless gave an hour compendium of last weeks kid's programmes. T'was a yarn "To the Max" written and narrated by Mark Inglis . Hr described is titanium legs that helped him win silver at the Paralympics in Sydney. Phil Doole

One or other of those two blokes will top Everest - but what the hell - they're "disabled" - like the Paralympiads - who have more guts and determination than I do...

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 03:56 AM

They have more guts than I do, as well. It is wonderful to see disabled people overcome their disabilities. However, they are still disabled. I cannot believe that given the choice, these mountaineers wouldn't jump at the chance (unintentional pun) of being fully abled. If I lost my legs, I hope I would show the stamina and fortification that your mates did; but more than that, I would want my legs back. This argument reminds me of the 80s when disabled people were labled "differently abled." It was a ridiculous label and thankfully it didn't stick. But the argument raging here has similiar rings to it.

As I keep saying, disabled people should be treated with respect and diginity, but to "pretend" that they do not have a disability, is to deny reality - and dare I say it, a tad patronising.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 04:42 AM

Perhaps the way to look at it is that we are all disabled in some way - in comparison with others? This does not make others better or you worse - just different...........

We all have our own mountains to climb and in our own way. We just start at different points on the slope?

There is a big diffence between me, Steve Redgrave and Tanni Grey Thompson. Perhaps we should just recognise, respect and celebrate all these differences?

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 08:35 AM

The Olympics and The Paralympics celebrate achievement. Nobody is saying that the disabled would rather be disabled. But finding themselves so and still having the strength and discipline to compete on a world level does not make their contribution to sport any less.
I think they do need an extra ounce of determination and grit to reach their goals. And that made their medal ceremonies more poignant and meaningful to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 11:54 AM

From his comments above it seems that our "English Patriot" has a disability of his own - envy of whatever others have that he or she does not have. But for some people life is not like that.

For my part I have had fairly serious eye problems most of my life and had a heart attack at a youngish age, but it has never entered my head to wish I was as "perfect" as everyone else. We are what we are, and those like the English Patriot who can't accept this simple premise will never be content. If the "English Patriot" had been around in the 1930s his natural home would have been among those in Germany and many other countries who admired Hitler's attitude to the disabled. That way he would have spared himself the embarrassment of being so much more perfect than such unfortunates.

Nutty raised a fair point. Coverage of the Paralympics was so-so in the UK but much worse elsewhere, including in the US, which did not leave behind even one camera crew after the Olympics. (According to some members of the IOC, this has put paid to New York's already feeble bid to host the 2012 games.) For Shambles, the explanation lies in the fact that the Paralympics have been tainted by cheating. I must say that the links he has provided look like clutching at straws, but even if the Paralympics are indeed tainted, so what? The Olympics are more seriously tainted, and yet they attract worldwide coverage.

More probably the explanation lies in tv companies second-guessing the likely prejudices of their potential audiences. Such prejudices do exist and need to be confronted, so that we do not allow the agenda to be set by the narrow-minded bigotry of people like "English Patriot."

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 05:39 PM

I dont quite know how Peter K came to the conclusion that I think that all of the disabled should be put to death. All I have done is question the validity of the existance, or media coverage at least, of the Paralympics. I am not going to repeat my arguments again for the chronically stupid who retort by using abuse as against debating. Life, my freind, is too short. You say I am envious? How do you know? I have already said that I think it is wonderful how people overcome their disabilities, but that at the end of the day, they still have those disabilities and would get try and cure those disabilities if they could.


I take exception by being called a Nazi by some piece of shit who knows nothing about me!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: vectis
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 07:57 PM

I enjoyed the coverage there was and would have welcomed more. The Paralympics were full of athletes and sportsmen/women who trained hard to reach those games and deserve the same respect and admiration we give to ANY olympian.

The disgusting trickery entered into by the Spanish basketball team in 2000 meant that thousands of athletes with learning difficulties were denied the chance to compete at all, including a local weightlifter. He spent four years preparing and improving only to have his dreams shatteded through no fault of his own. I presume that the Spanish team were stripped of their medal. I hope so. They should have then been banned from ALL Olympic events in standard Olympics, Paralympics and Special Olympics in 2004. They would have cleaned their act up PDQ and every other country would have double checked their competitors to virtually (you always get the odd one) eliminate cheating on this scale.

My school became a centre of sporting excellence a few years ago and one of the houses is "Grey Thompson" house. She is considered an athlete here before she is considered as disabled. Don't belittle her dedication, fitness or achievements just because she needs a wheelchair to get around.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:42 PM

G'day Penguin Egg,

Which species are you going to hatch into? I've spent a few hundred hours with Eudyptula minor (Little Blue) - you'll find your portrait halfway down the page. Now, as a bird, Little Blue Penguins are TOTALLY DISABLED since they can't fly (in air - but watch 'em in the water) - their anatomy doesn't let them work too well on land either. Those mates are as mad and ratted as Phil and Mark (above) some climb a mile inland to 1,000 ft altitude every night - in the breeding season.

Anyway... here's a couple or three yarns about "disbaled peop;e" I've spent time with over years - most at Outdoor Education Centres.

- we "talked" a heap of 'impaired' kids through a ropes course that any army would be proud of.

Hearing - my favourite recollection is of a 14 year old kid who climbed off the bus, and started plaing 'air guitar'. He was from the school's 'deaf unit' and had been with us the year before. That night he sat at my feet with his finger tips on the sound box of my guitar, so he could hear the music. Meanwhile one of his mates stood behind me to hold my whiskers back so he could 'watch my lips'. He did a damned good job of singing along.

Awww... there's more, but... You're right Shanbles we're all disabled in some way.

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: darkriver
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:49 AM

My first tendency was to ignore the nameless asshole who calls himself English Patriot, but his second posting bears some response.

I used to teach American Sign Language to adults at a junior college, and a large number of students were classified as blind, mentally retarded, having cerebral palsy, deafened or hard of hearing, etc., in addition to the usual numbers of "normal" people. No, this is not a story about how the disabled folks beat the pants off the "normal" folks. It has, in fact, nothing to do with "ability."

What I'm getting at here is perception. As the teacher for one course and the teaching assistant for all the courses, I had to work with everyone, so I got to know all the students who cared enough about the class to come to a practice lab. And I would see them around the area, outside of class, living pretty normal lives--the mentally retarded ones taking buses to jobs every day and so forth. I remembered thinking about how limiting my perception was, how it was keeping me from seeing what these people were able to do. One of my favorite students was a guy named Steve, who was in a wheelchair because he had cerebral palsy. He was also very hard of hearing and wore hearing aids (as I do). You would assume someone with CP wouldn't be able to fingerspell and sign, but you'd assume wrongly. Steve's fingerspelling was very clear. The reason he was a fave of mine was his sense of humor. I was amazed he had any sense of humor, because in his early life, he was assumed to be retarded and stuck away out of sight. God knows how he managed to keep his wits sharp, but he did.

As an adult, Steve was breaking out of the limitations imposed on him, NOT by his handicaps --which were real ones, sure enough-- but by other people's perceptions of him (people like the English Patriot). Seeing him as less than whole, less than what he *could* do, was the source of Steve's real disability. I'm sure Steve wished, as EP stated, he could walk and hear like other people, but I would assert that the reason for this wish is so that other people would stop seeing him as a cripple, as a less than whole person.

You, English Patriot, with your attitudes, are the real source of these disabilities--you and everyone else who cringes or is disgusted at the sight of anyone different from them. English Patriot, you are the one that should crawl into a hole, just like you hide behind a ridiculous anonym.

Doug Montalbano

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:17 PM

I am really flabagasted with the accusations being flung at me here. I do not cringe when I see someone who is disabled, nor am I disgusted by them. I am merely questioning the validity of the Paralympics and saying that they cannot compare with the Olympics simply because the contestants are disabled. You may not agree - fine, but some of the sanctimoniousness from some of the Mudcatters has been a little too much to bare. Take a bow,Doug Montalbano, although you are so stuck up your own arse that I doubt if you would be able to bow. Doug, I do not mind you being a self-righteous prig (have I spelt prig right-or should it have a ck where the g is?)but I do mind you putting forward such ridiculous arguments. In your boring -Oh God! you people are so boring! - posting you mention Steve "who was in a wheelchair because he had cerebral palsy. He was also very hard of hearing." You then go on to say - and you do go on, sad to say - of him "breaking out of the limitations imposed on him, NOT by his handicaps --which were real ones, sure enough-- but by other people's perceptions of him (people like the English Patriot)." If people with his disabilities can fulfill their potential and overcome peoples' prejudices, then that is good and proper. I do not have a problem here. I might add how does Doug know what my perceptions of Steve are? However, if Steve could be cured of his cerebral palsy, if his hearing could be restored, and he could be made to walk, wouldn't this be better for him. It is not just peoples perceptions of him that are the problem, but his various illnessess? Ofcourse, if he was cured, then he would not be a victim, and people like you Doug like victims so you can "help" them, champion their causes, and generally make yourself sound good. You dont sound good. You sound like a sanctimonious prig. You use the disabled for your own self-righteous ends.

By the way, I am not nameless.

Ian Williams
PS The hostile tone of this posting is not aimed at the other Mudcatters , but just at Doug, whose overbearing pompousness has really irritated me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: darkriver
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:30 PM

Ian,

thanks for giving yourself a name. I was responding to the way you sounded, just as you responded to the way I did.

In real life, I am not pompous. Probably my writing didn't express my intention very well. I have no real interest in name calling, and if I misunderstood your post, I'm sorry. As I said, I was responding to what I thought you said.

As for being a prig--well, taking away the part about you being one of 'those folks'--there are people who feel the way I described, and I had to work with the results of their attitudes. It would have brokne my heart to see so much wasted life, except that as adults these people were finally getting away from the damage done by others.
That part, I don't take back, or apologize for that.

Just for misunderstanding you.

Regards,

doug

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:43 PM

um, sticking my head above the parapet here... am I being incredibly naïve to ask how a learning difficulty impinges on weightlifting ability...? Genuine question.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:57 PM

Well, you did call me an asshole, Doug, so you did set yourself up for a verbal roasting. However, fair's fair. If I met Steve in the flesh, I'd probably feel sorry for him and dismiss him out of hand without giving it a second thought. So good on you if you manage to overcome those misconceptions - and they are misconceptions, not blind prejudices.

However, Fibular Mattock does have a point. I think we are talking about physical disablities here - paraplegics, in short. I still say, and it is only an opinion, that the Paralympics cannot properly compete with the Olympics. The Paralympics is about people overcoming a disablility that they don't want. Surely it is better to walk on your own two legs than to have to use a wheelchair, even if you have a gold for wheelchair racing?

I think I have made my point as clear as I can. I hope I have succeeded. I mean no disrespect to disabled people. Who knows, I might wake up tomorrow and find myself unable to walk. But if I did, I would pray like mad for a cure. A gold medal in the Paralympics would boost my self esteem, but it would be no substitue for the abilty to walk again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM

G'day Fibula,

On your question how a learning difficulty impinges on weightlifting ability...?. It's simple - you must learn to reed and right so you can do the sums write to put the correct wait on your Bar Belle (who'll probably never serve you again)..

From the trench (through a periscope) - get yer waits out and weight. My simple answer to your question is NO. If a blind-from-birth bloke can become an astropysicist (he was on the wireless a couple of days back), there's no reason why someone who, like me, gives the 'two-finger' and says - "One plus one = 3¼", can't weightlift.

Awww... Shucks - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: vectis
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 06:41 PM

Fibula
People with Downs Syndrom and similar learning difficulties cannot coordinate their bodies as well as "normal" people. Their neural pathways are far less efficient and their reactions are slower, even after training. They find it harder to develop muscle tissue as well. This is why they, so far, can't compete on an equal footing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Paralympics
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:31 AM

I have no idea where the idea comes from that anyone in the paralympics is pretending not to be disabled, or that they would rather be disabled than able bodied. Of course Im sure many olf them would prefer to be able bodied, but the fact is that they are not, and therefore if they wish to be athletes they cannot compete at the highest level against able bodied people, so they choose to compete with other people with a similar level of disability so that there is a pretty level playing field. And that is why it is not about their disabilityu, but their ABILITY in sports. The point is that just because some people have disabilities, that doesnt mean they dont ahve the same kinds of aspirations as other people. And for some people they have the talent and drive to compete and be the best at something. They dont amputate your skill and personality when they amputate your leg, you know.

And if you ask most people with a disabilty, you will find that what disables them most in life is not that they eg have a limb missing, it is that the world is designed for people without any limbs missing with very little consession to people who are different, and the attitudes of the able bodied towards them.