BS: Cheating Royal?

Subject: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: bertie the bolshie
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM

So 'Arry had to get help to pass his art eh? Not only do we have to subsidise this wart on the face of humanity but it seems he needs to have teacher's help to tell his Monet from Lowery. Now 'e's off to be an officer in the army. Time to apply comrade lenin's solution eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: ced2
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:51 PM

Are you surprised that he needed help with a wing-nutheaded pater like his?

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:52 PM

good god - did you register as a member simply to post this crap? If he wasn't a royal no one in the world would give a shit about his cheating - especially in an art class. it isn't as if knowledge of art is crucial to reigning. In fact - beyond the ability to breath or otherwise show a semblence of life - not much is essential to reigning.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 03:42 PM

I don't give a shit. Life will go on exactly as before for the rest of us so why waste time and risk an apoplexy getting worked up about such trivia. Get a life, be outraged by something worth getting outraged about - like maybe the millions starving to death in the Sudan. That puts Harry's exam results into context.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM

But it does help when granny has one of the world's biggest art collections.. It would be terrible to throw away one of Charles' childhood scribbles only to find it was really a Picasso.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 06:40 PM

Yer cheatin' royal
Will tell on you
Yer cheating royal
Said "Art's doo-doo"....

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 07:13 PM

Knowledge of art may not necessarily crucial to reigning, however, having the temerity to cheat may be another point entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 07:22 PM

His parents and his royal selfness had the best education money can buy, and barely scraped through.
Of course he will cheat. Hard work and application are not reknowned traits in his family.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:35 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:35 PM

Sorry, I was speechless.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:03 PM

Knowlege of art - of all arts - is crucial to being civilized. He ain't, it would seem.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:19 PM

It does matter, because people in a position of power and influence are increasingly getting there by their wealth and family connections, not by talent or hard work. this is typical of the easy ride some people get, and the contempt they subsequently feel for their "subjects"/electrate/voters/ citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:42 PM

The ability to cheat, get caught cheating, and come through the incident completely unscathed is a skill much required in leadership.

It's a pity he's only up for Kingship. Sounds like he's showing good Prime Ministerial qualities.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:55 PM

I cheated on a typing test once and I got caught. I was very ashamed and I also failed typing. Please, can I be a king too?

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:35 AM

I wish you lot would fill in the details when you start one of these local diatribes !! We aren't up on all your royal shenanigans over 'ere in the Colonies.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 04:55 AM

Has it ever struck anybody else as strange that all monarchs appear to be fertile? Call me an old cynic, but I can't feeling that someone's got it in for them!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 05:01 AM

he need to pass the Art exam to get in the Army??? now how does that work. Paint balls?????

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 05:02 AM

Well Amos, who's fault is that? You started it by not wanting to pay our taxes and throwing our tea in the bay! : )

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 05:07 AM

It was the Charles River Liz, do you think it could be significant?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 05:22 AM

Here you go Amos.

I'm afraid that whether true or not, I expect Prince Harry will come out of it OK. I find it more worrying that my confidence in our systems is so low that I believe a whitewash could occur than I do the thoughts that Harry may (or may not - I'm not saying he is guilty) have cheated. For me, in particular, I think I found the Hutton report, very damaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:31 AM

If 'e does as well 'as 'is uncle eddie did in the army I wouldnt be at all surprised.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: bertie the bolshie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:39 AM

Different bloody tale if he were some kid off a council estate... one rule for the rich and one for the rest. Keep the sickle sharpened!

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:46 AM

'A'level art's going to do him a lot of good in the army. Unless you count rape, pillage, bombing, and shooting as art forms.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Jeanie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:49 AM

As long as coursework continues to form a part of the examination process (whether at GCSE or A Level) the way is open for questions and accusations to be raised, whether founded or unfounded, whoever the pupil and whichever the school. The line between "helping" and "doing the work for the pupil" could be seen to be a very thin one in these circumstances. The internet is also full of "helpful" coursework scripts for all exam subjects. Although random spot checks are made of all scripts, the general procedure is for coursework to be marked by the teacher at the school, with only sample top, middle and bottom scripts being submitted to the exam boards. Add to this the fact that teachers have been subject to performance-related pay since the "Threshold" was brought in, and have ever-increasing targets set by their departments year by year for the percentage of their pupils gaining Grades A to C, the door is wide open for accusations of cheating, by teacher, pupil or parent, whether or not this happens.

I was very glad to hear in the news this week of a suggested move away from coursework in exams. The only fair way, I feel, to test the standard of teaching and learning is for written work to be done under timed, supervised, silent exam conditions and sent away to be marked externally by the exam board and for practical work (such as language orals, drama and music performance) to be done before an independent external visiting examiner from the exam board.

I think it's a great pity that because Prince Harry and his school are very much in the public eye, inevitably people are going to focus on the royalty and public school factors here, rather than seeing these accusations as a symptom of the crazy coursework system that exists for *all* pupils and in *all* schools at present. The sooner it is abandoned, the better, in my view.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:00 AM

Giok:

Made me LOL with that!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:02 AM

cheating in exams, eh? Well, it's good grounding for university where far too many students don't seem to understand the concept of plagiarism. It's something that winds me up immensely, grrrrrr.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:18 AM

Tossing the tea into the river wasn't an act of rebellion, LtS. Them folks in Boston were simply very, very thirsty. And dodging taxes is an old and honored custom in the US, and an old and honoured custom in the UK. Shows what can happen when the news is reported by English newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Jeanie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:28 AM

I agree, Fibula. Your comments confirm what I was saying about the coursework-based school exam system these students are coming from. The system perpeptuates a mentality of "just slap it down in black and white and hope for the best". From conversations I hear between GCSE pupils, the concern seems to be more with covering the specified number of A4 sides than the content or where it comes from !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:41 AM

Fibula, it should be drummed into students from day 1: stealing from one source is plagiarism; stealing from many sources is research!

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:01 AM

*grin* Can we make this a music thread if we cite Tom Lehrer's "Plagiarize" (with adequate and appropriate references, obviously)?

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:14 AM

Lobachevsky. That's the one. I'd hate to mis-quote! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:34 AM

The beauty of "Lobachevsky" is it's libellous and defamatory!

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 04:34 PM

"...But always be sure to call it please RESEARCH..."
"libellous and defamatory" = 2 major foodgroups.
Any chance to refer to TL is a winner in my book, and a blessing among threads. Thanks, Your Highness.   Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 06:16 PM

I have a friend in Minsk
Who has a friend in Pinsk

Nicolai Ivanovitch to his friends.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 03:27 PM

Having finally read the story, I find myself unconvinced by the evidence offered. Justice compels me to offer an heir apparent the same benefit of the doubt due to any 'council kid'.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:49 AM

I totally agree with Freda. The biggest problems we have today are because of nepotism. Bush never learned to be accountable because his dad was always 'bailing him out'. Bush didn't become president because of his ability.

Many of the young teachers today are hired not because they are the best, but because a parent is a teacher and 'knows' someone on the hiring committee. Doesn't matter if you are an exceptional student, when you start looking for a job, its who you know not what you know. What does it matter if you cheat in school? Cheating is a way of life for most professionals I know.

Most people who have positions of power are there not because they earned it but because they knew how to cheat and manipulate. Its called politics.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:38 AM

I can't agree that no one would be interested in someone cheating in an exam if he was not a royal. This BBC story: Teacher jailed for stealing exam papers shows that cheating can be taken very seriously.

What amazes me is that no one seems surprised that Harry Battenburg (is that their name?) should be too stupid to pass an art exam on his own merits.

For those of our American friends so frighteningly uninformed on non-US news, here's a link to a story about the allegations that the English prince cheated on his exams: No inquiry into Prince Harry tape

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:45 AM

For Jaysus' sake you lot, get an effin life! It mattereth not a sod whether 'Arry cheated or he didn't cheat - his life of privilege and idleness was determined and guaranteed at the very moment the sperm of his sad-sack father entered the ovum of his wierd mother. This whole thread's a waste of cyberspace. For Gawd's sake, find something worth wittering about in the dark recesses of your navels.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 05:05 AM

No JTT Harry is a tie knot, and not a cake. They dropped the Battenberg thing years ago in an early PR exercise.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Terry K
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 06:38 AM

The lady who made the accusation got her name in the papers and will no doubt end up making lots of money out of it. Which is not to say that she may not be telling the truth. However, as that is the kind of culture we find ourselves living within, I think I would be careful about jumping to conclusions.

Its interesting to note that those who are clearly anti-Royal have immediately pounced on this trivia as being gospel truth (oxymoron?)and launched into slagging off the youth in the most vituperative way, without seeming to care whether it's true or not.

I'm neither pro nor anti, but I do feel for the guy being the butt of people's political bias - he didn't get to choose his birth circumstances, after all.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Jeanie
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:00 AM

I agree, Terry. As I said earlier, it's a pity that because Prince Harry and his school are very much in the public eye, people are going to focus on the royalty and public school factors, rather than seeing this accusation as a symptom of the crazy coursework system of in-school assessment by teachers that exists for ALL pupils in ALL schools at present.

Good news ! The Tomlinson Report, to be published tomorrow, heralds a Major Reform of Teen Schooling According to this BBC news report:

"Coursework, discredited as prone to cheating, would be drastically reduced."

Whether or not pupils have ever cheated, and whether or not teachers have ever "enhanced" the marks, as long as there is in-house exam assessment, the way is open for accusations like those concerning Harry and his teachers.

If none of the other recommendations of the Tomlinson Report is followed, I hope the coursework cutback, at least, is implemented.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

Its interesting to note that those who are clearly anti-Royal have immediately pounced on this trivia as being gospel truth

I don't know about that Terry. I'm in no way a royalist, I'd much rather be without them but am "live and let live" rather that "off with thier heads". In my previous post I did indicate that we don't know whether he cheated or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:45 AM

Some years ago I saw an interesting justification of the English monarchy. It's said to be a major source of tourist revenue. So I suppose that's OK, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 11:27 AM

Tomlinson right or wrong is not what bugs me, it is the unending messing around with the names and criteria of exams. Why do they keep changing them, and if the old ones were so bad why haven't all the universities closed down? Even the leaked bits from Tomlinson are laughable, they talk about the possibility an 'A' or an 'A+', or even an 'A++'. Always adding value, always trying to soften the blow for those who don't make the grade. What happened to 'A', 'A+', and 'A-', or 1, 2/1, 2, and 2/2 like uni, at least that would be consistent. All they seem to have done with their mucking about, and changing Technical Colleges into universities, is create more unemployed, and unemployable graduates, with specious degrees like media studies, and created a shortage of good honest tradesmen. Ever tried to get a decent plumber?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Chris Green
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 11:58 AM

I've heard the "royals as tourist revenue" argument too. The French got rid if their royal family over 200 years ago, but I'm not aware that it put tourists off visiting Versailles! To be honest, it seems to me that the British royal family is at best an irrelevance and a bloody expensive one at that. As far as I can see the only revenue they bring in is to tabloid newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:16 PM

I think the monarchy of England would probably be happier without the spotlight. I'm sure they have enough invested to 'make it through' the transition to 'normal life'. Tourists like to see the art and the history. The palaces can become museums. What a waste of money when you think about the people of Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan. etc. How can it be justified?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:17 PM

By the way, I posted 17 Oct 04 - 01:49 AM, but I guess I dropped my cookie and came up as a Guest.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:43 PM

I can only think of that old British folksong

"It's a way that we have in the Army
It's a way that we have in the Navy
It's a way that we have in the Public Schools...."

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 05:35 PM

I went to visit a Young Offenders Institution one time and there two guys there who had got two years each for breaking into the tech college to see their exam papers....

that line from Dylan......

the letter of the law has no top and no bottom

(lonesome death of hattie Carrol)

seems apropriate. Of course the exam system is all bollocks, but its like donovan says theres whats been hid and whats been did, and it ain't right....

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 03:59 AM

I would like to make it clear that Harry (as in royal) has no connection with the Harri Watts Band. He did audition but he cheated.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:02 AM

Morning baldy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:35 PM

Giok, I don't think they dropped the Battenberg -- they "anglicized" it to Mountbatten. Prince Philip's family name. The family he married into had been something like Saxe-Coburg. They "anglicized" to Windsor. So Harry and Wills are Windsor-Mountbattens.

I'm still The Vicar of Bray, sir.    Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 06:59 AM

one rule for the rich and one for the rest.

Yes, you wouldn't have started a thread about someone else's kid caught cheating. When I was caught cheating once I got a bad grade and felt not very good for some days. But I didn't have to read about it in the newspapers and except a small circle of persons nobody knew and after the initial reaction the matter was never discussed any more.

So, of course the rules are different for different people, but that is not only to the advantage of the rich and famous.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Cheating Royal?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 08:14 AM

He didn't inherit his lack of brains from his dad, but his mum.

Anyway, it serves us all right for killing her.