BS: Sunday Shopping

Subject: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST,James
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:21 AM

Nova Scotians, in a Provincal Vote, Voted against Sunday shopping. It it good to know that there are still people in North America who believe that no one should work seven days a week and that the wheels of Wal Mart do not have to turn constantly.
    Are there other places that have rejected Sunday Shopping ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

We aren't allowed to buy alcohol on Sundays but are trying to repeal that "blue" law...

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: s&r
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:33 AM

UK had a bizarre compromise which means big stores can open for a max of six hours on Sunday; small stores are less restricted and I think Jewish and Muslim stores have no restriction. I may have the detail wrong, in which case I am sure someone will coorrect me

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST,James
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:34 PM

what is a "blue" law ? Just curious

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:43 PM

"Blue" laws are those irrational laws imposed by earlier governments, often based on religous premises of some sort, defining behaviours that are controlled for moralistic/religous reasons rather than because they actually do harm. Examples are closing stores on Sunday, a choice which ought to be freely open to those who own the store. Other examples are much more weird, such as prohibiting wives from nagging on Sunday, etc.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:48 PM

its whistling on a Tuesday that really gets to me

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:55 PM

Bergen County, NJ has blue laws that prevent most retail selling on Sunday. We are the bedroom community of NYC. There are numerous malls in Bergen County, particularly in the town of Paramus. There have been several attempts to overturn the laws, but they have been rejected.   The people who live in Paramus enjoy the day without major traffic issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM

If I want to buy something on a Sunday (that would be legal on any other day of the week) and someone wants to sell it to me, I don't see what it has to do with anybody else.

Doug C

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:03 PM

Not quite sure how I ended up as a GUEST, but that was me above.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:04 PM

Sainsburys may also want to sell it to you. But not all Sainsburys employees want to work and handle the transaction. Legislation was needed to avoid people being forced to work against their will on a Sunday. Seems to work ok in the UK now. Most stores open and nobody is forced to work on a Sunday. It probably suits many to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST,James
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:29 PM

Nova Scotia had a referendum and the concept of Sunday shopping was defeated. I suspect, considering the debate, that these reasons were the major ones.....Minimum wage employees would have no choice but to work on Sunday. It was hurt small, independant business and the only people to benefit would be latge US chains such as wal mart.
   Personally, I see no need whatever to have seven days a week of connsumerism..I am glad it was a referendum, at least it was democatically decided. And Doug, it has a great deal to do with everybody else...does it not.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:34 PM

Well, most of the time, most people ARE going to get 2 days off a week; it's just that it might not be Sunday. IF they need Sunday off for personal or relgious reasons, most employers will comply. (Don't hesitate, Legislate!) All gods forbid we should actually let folks make their own descions!

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:36 PM

I realize they are off two days a week.however Families might like to have the same two days. Also. what is wrong with one day of no shopping. I really have a hard time with this shop til drop stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:42 PM

Sunday shopping is really a class sort of thing...the underpaid are required to wait on the people with disposable income...some call this convience...but really its just boredom tinged with greed. It is the way that well off people and big companies force others to serve them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:45 PM

Where are people being forced against their will to work on a Sunday? Shops being open seven days a week doesn't mean we have to shop in them seven days a week does it?

For those who work Mon to Fri, it is handy to shop on a Sunday. In big tourist cities Sundays are a normal day for the visitors. They may visit a museum or they may buy lingerie in Marks and Sparks.

So long as the choice is given to those who work I cannot see a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST,James
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:53 PM

Here are some myths about the Sunday Shopping...People are not forced to work on Sunday..Not So..Many are forced to work or are not hired or have hours cut. These are not, for the most part, highly paid unionized employees...they often do not have choices. Also, all stores in Malls MUST open when the mall is open. If you run a small operation in a large mall you will not have a choice as the being open.There is no evidence that tourists come here to visit Home Depot or Wal Mart. Sunday Shopping increases sales...there is no evidence of that in any City in Canada where Sunday shopping is allowed. So I don't get it at all. Why a furore about one day a week off for all.. a slow day, a quiet day. Surely that cannot be a regressive idea. I also work five days a week...but I have no trouble getting my errands done/

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:04 PM

The point is, James, that is not a matter appropriate to legislate that there should be one day a week to be a slow day. It is a cultural or religous preference. Why a furor has nothing to do with whether it is a good idea, a mixeds idea or a piss-poor idea. It just isn't something that should be legislated.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:04 PM

In the UK not all stores are obliged to open. And no employee is forced to work. We also have lots of 24hr open stores. Again at the employees choice they work these hours. Alot to be said for unions.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:12 PM

People applying for those kind of jobs get asked if they are willing to work on a Sunday. And if they aren't willing, they probably won't get hired.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:21 PM

Like the ambulance service, fire brigade, restaurant staff, doctors, nurses, hospital cleaners, public transport employees, telecom operators etc etc etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM

It is not legislated in Nova Scotia.. it was implemented by referendum...a democratic vote. Also, why should government not legislate thisas they do minimum wage, working conitions, and so on. As for comparisons with fire brigades and so on..surely we can distinquish between a firefighter and a wal mart clerk in terms of essential service.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:27 PM

Goverhnments can, and probably will, legislate it just because they can.

That doesn't make it right. In my humble opinion getting governments to make laws at that level of granularity is counter-productive.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:28 PM

Amos, it was NOY legislated in Nova Scotia.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:35 PM

There are many tasks, such as those in the oil, chemical and process industries, which have to be carried out 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. These plants cannot be switched on and off to suit traditional view of a 9 to 5 job. The same goes for public services such as police, hospitals and fire fighters. Many of the things we take for granted are only available thanks to those working unsocial hours. How many musicians would make a living if they clocked off each day at teatime?

My father spent his whole life as a shift worker and holidays, days out and even Christmas had to be organised around his shifts. Even childhood playtime had to take it account if the weather was too bad to be outside and Dad was trying to sleep before going on nights – but I don't ever remember it as being a problem. That was just the way life was.

When Sunday becomes a normal working day, people adapt their lives to suit.


Doug C

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:36 PM

I am really on the fence about this issue.   Amos is partially right. The original laws were created because of religious reasons. However, I do feel that a town has a right to legislate issues that effect the quality of life of that town. In our area, the citizens of Paramus have made their voice heard - they want the day of rest, and not because of religion.

You can say, if they don't like the traffic then they can move. On the other hand, you can tell the business owner that if they do not like the rules, they can build elsewhere.

There is a difference between "essential" services and other business. Frankly, when you take the job you take the hours. You aren't in bondage. The main complaints come from the towns themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:49 PM

Yup....Sunday= Normal Working Day for Mr.....ya'll know what he does. He also works holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, midnight shift...but, see, he gets PAID for this. His choice. Ya don't like the job,don't take it. And, if you're out of bog roll on Sunday, ya gonna use your hand? What a lot of hooey about nuttin honey.

Ya don't wanna shop on Sunday, then don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:34 PM

What has always gotten me about Sunday shopping, etc. is the hypocrisy. In Indiana, I couldn't buy a six-pack of beer to drink while watching a football game on TV but I could go out and buy an AR-15 or a .45. Here, members of the LDS Church (I hope I don't offend, but I'm calling them as I see them) are opposed to shopping on Sunday but own stores that are open.

If you don't want to, don't do it, but please don't be two-faced about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:42 PM

When I first started to work for our local government/council (in a library), we didn't open on Sundays, we got 'unsociable hours payments' for working after 5.30pm (til 7.30pm, one night alternate weeks) and weekend rates for Saturdays. After I took maternity leave, they tried to make me sign a new contract that took away the unsociable hours payments, extended the opening hours to 8.00pm, two nights every week and opening on Sunday afternoons. As I was on a previous contract, I made a big noise with the Union and the original contracts were upheld. All contracts from that date had the new hours and different pay scales on them. If you didn't sign to work on Sundays, you didn't work, full stop.

Trading laws basically ruled that you could only open if you sold fresh food (dairy, vegetables, meat etc). If you sold milk in your newsagent, you could sell pornographic magazines as well. If you didn't sell fresh produce, you couldn't sell Bibles either.

The Sunday opening laws have relaxed that a lot. Now you may open at any time you like but for a set period of hours (usually 10 til 4 although some big stores and shopping centres open at 10 for 'browsing' and the checkouts open at 11 - 5, thus giving the illusion of an extra hour's shopping and omitting that 'dead' period before the first shoppers have reached the tills.

We still have a 'Keep Sunday Special' lobby, who basically do what they can to curb excesses, we still have Easter Sunday when stores are not allowed to open, and most remain closed on Christmas Day (mainly to give the staff chance to clear the Christmas stuff and put the Easter eggs and Valentines out). With a multicultural society, there are always people who will work on Sundays and other Christian holidays, in exchange for time off for their own festivals and sabbaths.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:32 PM

You have to wonder about "blue" laws in the U S---harking back to the Puritan days. In Bergen County --to which Ron referred---they now allow stores to sell pretty much everything except clothing---and liquor between the hours of Noon and 6 PM. I guess that means you can buy Copy paper at Staples--a bottle of booze at your local supermarket---and make sure that you don't put any clothes on---you might have purchased them illegally and take a photo of yourself (without your clothes)--scan it and then copy it on the paper you purchased to mail to your friends living in places where this nonsense is not promulgated.

The only risk is that your friends may not be happy with your anatomy---but why worry---you have plenty of drink to make you forget their disregard of your prideful show of your anatomy.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:40 PM

So then, you work hard all week and you want to catch up on your sleep or relax on Saturday. However, you can't do that because you have to go and do all your shopping. Sunday, when you would be rested up and ready to run from store to store and get frustrated at idiots pushing shopping carts down the middle of the lane in the parking lot, you can't because all the stores are closed. Yep...makes sense to me. Or, herself says, you work hard all week and go to the synagogue on Saturday. The only day left is Sunday...etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:57 AM

Oh I forgot - you could sell pornographic magazines on the Sabbath if you also sold daily papers.... that was the get-out for that one, and why perfectly good stationery stores took to selling daily papers as well as magazines and periodicals.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 07:59 AM

I would like to know why everything isn't open on Sunday, Banks, Schools, Government offices,Dr. offices. child care centres...why should anyone have the day off. If it is just another day. lets treat it as such and get on with it. Why is it only retail that should ve open? Or Maybe we should create an eigth day and we could shop eight days a week and the poor could work all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:41 AM

The Government legislates lots of things which curb our freedoms and we don't seem to mind....seatbelts, helmets, driving licenses, car insurance, health and safety at work, attendance at Public school, all manner of things. So why should they not legislate retails hours rather than letting big corporations shove their agenda down our throats.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:49 PM

It's not that long ago that the last County in Wales voted to open pubs on Sundays.
Prior to that we had the ludicrous position where people would cross County boundaries on a Sunday just to be able to get a drink.
Drinking was permitted to travellers, and some train routes only made money on their Sunday timetable because they ran a buffet car with drinks.
Anyone who has visited Wales is likely to have noticed the great number of 'Clubs' we have; political clubs, working mens clubs, sports clubs etc. These, being for 'members' only were outside the scope of the Sunday drinking laws.

As it says in at least one version of 'Cosher Bailey'
Have you ever been to Wales
Where they brew the finest ales.
If you want a drink on Sunday
You will have to wait 'til Monday


Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:51 AM

Having been born in Nova Scotia and having lived over 50 years of my life here , maybe I can add some perspective. I think it rather silly of government to have held a plebiscite on such an unimportant issue , but that being said, this is why I voted against Sunday shopping:
If you look at a map of North America you will see that we are stuck out into the Atlantic ocean, off the beaten track. This has allowed us to maintain a slower pace of life than the mainstream. Tradition is highly valued and people still stop to smell the flowers. Where I live on Cape Breton Island traditional music still lives as does the Gaelic language. Part of the reason for this has been isolation through the years, but the second is that Sunday was a day when work was put aside and people, families and neighbours socialized in a setting that passed along the music and traditions that we hold dear.
Times are changing of course, and we are losing this more relaxed pace of life but I am have no desire to speed the process. I claim no organized religion so Sunday for me is both secular and special.
It is only the large stores who are forced to close.Liquor stores are government operated, and most are closed on Sunday, but that is not the question being being voted upon.
                   Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:57 AM

I think that if you want to open your business on Sunday you should be allowed to do so. Whether or not people come is up to them. Legislating morality -- whether it is prohibition, abortion, Sunday church attendance or anything else -- is never a good idea and has always failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:22 PM

Rapaire, I agree that is usually not a good idea to legislate morality but I do not see Sunday shopping as narrow an issue as that. Most private store owners can open if they wish, as long as they are below a limited square footage.
If the big anchor stores in the malls were permitted to open the malls would demand, in lease contracts, that the smaller operations would be open as well. This would often be to the disadvantage of the small operator as he would have to work or staff his store for longer hours, and probably not sell any more product than what he would in six days. The choice would be taken away from the merchant by the big mall or by the fact that his competition was open. It is the big chains driven by greed that want an extra shopping day. Capitalism is not always pretty and we get along fine with Wal-Mart being open six days a week.
       Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Sunday Shopping
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:54 PM

Since we have had Sunday Shopping in Oz, there have been a few side effects:

1) no noticeable effect on church attendance
2) more people on part time work
3) especially since full Saturday trading came in before Sunday trading, since the big stores don't have to mark down the perishables (like meat which has a very short permissible 'hold life') to get rid of them as they are now open every day, there is less chance for the poverty stricken to get bargains. They also 'mark-down dispose' the stuff now at random times during the week, instead of at predicatable times.