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BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster
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Subject: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,guest from NW Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:59 PM this is an interesting list i've come across. what do you think about this? is anyone surprised? It is interesting to note who is willing to put his life on the line for what he believes in...and who is not. This could be the last election where military service in Vietnam has any political currency. But just for the record, it's worth noting who really served among the heavyweights in each of the major political parties. Be sure to check out the bottom of the list where the people who spend their time jabbering about military service, (the TV pundits) have their military credentials exposed. Read it and weep... Democrats Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71. David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72. Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72. Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan.1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade. Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam. Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII. John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V Purple Hearts. John Edwards: did not serve. Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea. Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953. Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91. Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal. Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit. Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart. Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V. Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star. Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57 Chuck Robb: Vietnam Howell Heflin: Silver Star George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII. Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received 311. Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy. Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953 John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters. Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg. Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple Heart, Silver Star. Retired 4-star General. John Dingell: WWII vet John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea Republicans Dennis Hastert: did not serve. Tom Delay: did not serve. House Whiip Roy Blunt: did not serve. Bill Frist: did not serve. Rudy Giuliani: did not serve. George Pataki: did not serve. Mitch McConnell: did not serve. Rick Santorum: did not serve. Trent Lott: did not serve. Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage. John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business. Jeb Bush: did not serve. Karl Rove: did not serve. Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism. Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve. Vin Weber: did not serve. Richard Perle: did not serve. Douglas Feith: did not serve. Eliot Abrams: did not serve. Richard Shelby: did not serve. Jon Kyl: did not serve. Tim Hutchison: did not serve. Christopher Cox: did not serve. Newt Gingrich: did not serve. Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight instructor. George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (incomplete). Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies. Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII Phil Gramm: did not serve. John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Bob Dole: an honorable veteran. Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986 JC Watts: did not serve. Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer. G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese. Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam. Antonin Scalia: did not serve. Clarence Thomas: did not serve Pundits and Preachers Sean Hannity: did not serve. Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.') Bill O'Reilly: did not serve. Michael Savage: did not serve. George Will: did not serve. Chris Matthews: did not serve. Paul Gigot: did not serve. Bill Bennett: did not serve. Pat Buchanan: did not serve. Bill Kristol: did not serve. Kenneth Starr: did not serve. Michael Medved: did not serve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Once Famous Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:20 PM This list is stupid. yeah, stupid. You do not have a clue of the reasons why someone did not serve in the military. serving or not has nothing to do with much at all as far as patriotism goes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Amos Date: 19 Oct 04 - 06:10 PM I think it is interesting, statistically -- sure you don't know what the individual stories are, Martin, but look at the distribution by party. Hmmmmmmmm??????? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Oct 04 - 06:22 PM Very interesting, Martin-- And just why does it not matter whether a politician served in the military, pray tell? Especially if they are strong advocates for others to go fight for the country, and possibly dying? This could be very enlightening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Oct 04 - 08:05 PM Not exactly what I understood "chickenhawk" to mean.... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:29 PM Not entirely different. Some like to sock it to young people, one way or another... clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:56 PM I think there is a big correlation between not having seen war and thinking of it as acceptable policy. Chicken Hawks is a good description, With the exception of Rumsfeld, the Biggest hawks are the worst chickens. I notice McCain and Powell aren't on that list. So there has been some cherry picking. Of course Powell, the only Veteran in Bush's war cabinet was the one most opposed to the war was fought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,guest from NW Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:25 AM McCain is on the list 10th from the bottom of the republican list. and, as you say, powell was bush's chief obstacle to the war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:38 AM I didn't see McCain the first time. I guess I just should have looked for medals. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Boab Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:50 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Boab Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:51 AM A medal for Martin's exposure of his head above the parapet.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: DougR Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:09 AM Yep, no doubt about it, the Democrats are REALLY the hawks! The Republicans must be the peacemongers among the two political parties. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Rustic Rebel Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:35 AM Ya know, you caught me in the first sentence-those who believe in what they believe, but then you went political. That's when you lost me. There are people like myself out here, that have a life not based on this political bullshit. May you be happy in your journey to finding your happiness. Peace, Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,guest from NW Date: 20 Oct 04 - 02:49 AM "Yep, no doubt about it, the Democrats are REALLY the hawks! The Republicans must be the peacemongers among the two political parties. Thanks for bringing this to our attention." actually, my conclusion would be that the republicans are the majority draft dodgers and shirkers among the political parties. the dems seem to be more likely to serve their country. i think the evidence is more supportive of this conclusion. but, hey, pretty funny dougR. bet it took awhile to think up that one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Once Famous Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:02 PM Jack, you don't see a lot the first time. Was Eisenhauer a fantastic president because he was a general? Was U.S. Grant? Ron Davies, it doesn't make a difference, is what I'm saying. Get your head out of your paper asshole. This list is complete bullshit and tells anyone a whole lot of fecal matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:30 PM Military service has nothing to do with being qualified to be president. Commanding young people to do what you had not the responsibility or courage to do yourself does have something to do with a lack of decency and morality. And with a lack of shame. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:30 PM You're right Martin, what you are saying does not make a difference. Doug, I think the idea is that the ones who least understand war, are the ones most likely to support it. I'm not sure I agree, but it is worth some thought don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Once Famous Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:50 PM I don't agree Jack. I don't think you have had to be in a battle to know that: A. war sucks B. sometimes it is the only way and what you are saying makes very little difference either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:06 PM But there's those who don't think war sucks as long as they're not in the line of fire. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,guest from NW Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:18 PM MGibson do you think it is a good thing to serve your country? do you think doing so shows anything about your chacter or judgement? just curious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,NW Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:19 PM ooops."character" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Bill D Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:13 PM I assume it would be perfectly possible to make a list of 20 Republicans who served with honor and 20 Democrats who did not...for whatever reason...but the list, as it stands, is still interesting and indicates a pattern. I'd like to see a complete list of all major names and ages and reasons...etc... It might turn out to be bland...or even more interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:23 PM Bill I've heard that before and it is a reasonable supposition I guess but can you think of any prominent Republicans of Democrats that have been left off? All of the leaders and stars seem to be there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:36 PM Ah, Martin--your trademark subtlety and nuance, as well as iron grasp on the essence of the topic is well on display. It's only too bad the facts are against you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:42 PM Facts? He don' got to show you no steenking FACTS!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Once Famous Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:51 PM Yes, I did serve. I was stationed at Ft. Dix, NJ 1971-72. Didn't see combat in Nam and glad for it. Wouldn't have wanted John Kerry covering my back. Greg F and Ron Davies, what facts? Facts about baby killers in Viet Nam? Facts about going to Canada and dodging the draft. Facts like this list that started this thread which say absolutely nothing about anything relevant to anything? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM "Facts like this list that started this thread which say absolutely nothing about anything relevant to anything?" I thought I explained that to you. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,guest from NW Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:37 AM "Facts like this list that started this thread which say absolutely nothing about anything relevant to anything?" i'm not sure if you were addressing my question but if you were you didn't answer it. here it is again. MGibson do you think it is a good thing to serve your country? do you think doing so shows anything about your chacter or judgement? just curious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:24 AM "Wouldn't have wanted John Kerry covering my back." You would prefer drunken George W. Bush to watch your back in 1971? He'd have sent you into a minefield to fetch him a beer!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Once Famous Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:40 PM Guest, guest fron Nw: No, I don't think serving in the military means anything. There are a lot of assholes serving in the military. I did, for a while and not by my choice. so, you sound like someone who plays Okie from Muskokie on his Ward's turntable every day for asking. and Jack, I would prefer Bush today to kick some ass and be on the aggressive terrorist watch rather than wait for someone like Kerry to retreat from it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Oct 04 - 06:39 PM Bush is the one avoiding the real threats. He went into Iraq because Wolfowitz and Cheney said it would be easy and because Rumsfeld said he could do it cheaply. Between the two, Bush is the coward now as he was the corward now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:41 PM Martin-- Your 2 examples are Republicans, Grant and Eisenhauer (sic)--(your care in writing is only equalled by your mastery of logic). Are we then to believe that if a president is Republican, even serving in the military won't save them from being mediocre or worse? (Eisenhower is questionable here, though that's a topic for another thread). If so, why should anybody vote for Bush, who, according to his apologists, did serve his country as an officer? (we'll mercifully omit any mention of the fact that Mr. Bush primarily served his country as an officer by leading men from one bar to the next, and by working in the campaigns of conservative politicians--- while the vast majority of his fellow pilot trainees actually did fight.) And now he's graduated to Hypocrite in Chief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: EBarnacle Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:13 PM Just a minor editorial comment: Bob Dole not only served but, as I have commented to those who have previously put this list before my eyes, he was severely wounded in action [on D-Day, I believe]. I spent the Viet Nam years taking advantage of ever means I could find to legally avoid the Draft but refusing to go to Canada. Had I been drafted, I would have reluctantly gone. As much as I dislike to admit it, had I had political pull, I would have done my best to avoid being sent to Nam, preferably being put into a cushy deal with as little exposure to hostility as possible. That said, I would like to believe that I would have served wherever I was sent. Fortunately, the issue never came up. With all of the above caveats, I cannot fault anyone who did not serve. I can, however, fault them for blithely putting others in harms way with rationalizations about how important it is to sacrifice for the benefit of others. I cannot accept an effort to spread democracy abroad while suppressing it at home. I cannot accept a willingness to lie as a tool of governmental policy. Hypocrisy is bad, no matter who does it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:02 PM I did not serve in the army so I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion on war I am not a woman so I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion on abortion I am not an alien so I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion on space travel I am not dead so I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion on assisted suicide I am not a Catholic so I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion on Church corruptions or immoral actions I am not a baseball player so I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion on the world series I am a folkie so I guess I am allowed to have an opinion on Mudcat. My opinion is that anyone who quotes this list is a hypocrite because it never came up when Clinton was president and Dole was his opponent. My opinion is that the security of the country can never be left in the hands of a liberal My opinion is that you do not have to serve in the military to be a patriot to your country My opinion is that Kerry was a jerk to base his campaign on his military record and all that follow him down this path are bigger jerks. My opinion is that Kerry was never in Cambodia in Christmas 1968. My opinion is that all 250 Swift boat/Pow's can't be wrong and that some of what they have to say is true- that fact that so many have come foward against him has to count for something. My opinion is that most of you should have voted for Nader because after Kerry loses you would be able to hold your head up high and said that you voted your conscience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Once Famous Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:12 PM No, Ron Davies we are to vote for Kerry because he is a Viet Nam baby killer. My opinion (to paraphrase Mr. LarryK above) is that you are letting your hate for a man with ideals for America that are so different from your out-dated counter culture mentality keep you on the same going nowhere in life track that you have been on since the '60s. Grow up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:46 PM "I did not serve in the army so I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion on war" You're allowed to have an opinion, indeed you should have an opinion, but most times it would be despicable of you to send other people to be killed. "You go get shot at, sonny. I'd have gone when it was my time, but I had other priorities." That's why we use the folk expression "Let's you and him fight" to ridicule certain people. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:05 PM I didn't vote for Clinton so I can have an opinion that Larry K. last post was one of the most narrow minded, insulting and selfserving that I've seen in a while. How does he manage to quote people without reading what they say? What is the point? You aren't going to convince anyone of anything by accusing them of things which they did not say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:15 PM You don't have to be a veteran of the military to be a good President. Avoiding service in Vietnam was probably a good idea at the time, for which no one should be criticized. On the other hand, we should all admire those who risked their lives there because they believed it was the right thing to do. Having said all that, I have nothing but contempt for the cynical bastards who avoided combat themselves when young, but who now send young men -- *other* people's sons, never their own -- off to kill and be killed, and who profit from the military enterprise. These are the sons-a-bitches were talking about here. By the way, Martin Gibson, we were both at Ft. Dix at the same time, and both remained stateside, safely avoiding combat in 'Nam. If you are my old buddy Corporal Schwartz, drop me a PM, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:33 PM Larry K-- 1) Isn't it interesting that the vast majority of men who actually served under Kerry---not just in other Swift Boats---think he was a fine leader? Just how ideologically blind are you? 2) Christmas in Cambodia---if that's a reason to vote against Kerry, you're really desperate. 3) It's interesting that you did not serve in the military--I wonder why. 4) "The security of the country can never be left in the hands of a liberal"---- How conservative were FDR, Truman-- and for all that, Lincoln and Jefferson? It's certainly unquestionable that Madison was a raving leftie and that's why Washington was burnt. Good observation. Well done. Good job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM Martin-- 1) You have not addressed my assertion that Bush is a hypocrite for dodging combat while alleging support for the Vietnam War. As I've said before, now he plays soldier while sending real soldiers to their deaths in Iraq. This rankles me, as it should any decent person. 2) I'm fully aware Bob Dole is a bona fide hero, and Clinton was a worm regarding Vietnam. I've commented on my loathing for Clinton's gaming the system earlier. However no election is about just 1 issue and I've also commented on why I had to support Clinton over Dole----primarily Dole's extremely unsavory ( to me) bedfellows)-----the "Christian?" Right, monopolists like Macroslop and Maul Wart, and Big Oil. It's a long way from Teddy Roosevelt. In this election Bush strikes out on virtually every issue as far as I'm concerned. 3) Congratulations for poking your head out of the gutter and actually omitting in an entire post your usual references to your anal obession. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: GUEST,Boab - Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:10 AM ----"there are a lot of assholes serving in the military. I did for a while-----" Penitence---or a genuine attempt at image-polishing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hawk/Chickenhawk roster From: dianavan Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:35 PM I've said before that the men in my family have served in the armed forces for 3 generations. They did it because they saw it as their duty at the time. None of them were proud of it. They didn't like to talk about it. Anyone who use their military service as some kind of badge of honour, is questionable to me. I actually respect Kerry for coming home and opposing U.S. involvement in VietNam. I don't blame anyone for dodging the draft either. I would, however, question whether or not Bush is fit for the job of Commander in Chief. Obviously, he is not. d |
