'legendary' musicians

Subject: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Sam L
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:39 PM

Another thread got me thinking about how we appreciate music, generally, compared to other arts. Why are musicians "legendary?" Why so much hyperbole and superlatives? You can't watch a documentary about a style or vein of music without constant reminders to be awed.
   If you were to call the greatest painter in the world "legendary" people would wonder what you meant--that they didn't really exist? Shakespeare--they would probably think you did mean he was not really the author of "Shakespeare's" stuff. Legendary playwright Edward Albee sounds odder than Legendary Recording Artists Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Do we tend to want to personally like songwriters and musicians? I like Raymond Carver stories immensely but doubt I'd have hung out with him, and other writers I like were a pain to meet even briefly.

Theatre is similar--maybe it's because some essence is just live, and can't quite be recorded, because temporal art is so ephemeral? You sometimes have to be cued to grasp it? Does it need supporting mythology? Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:05 PM

This should not be BS surely...

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Sam L
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:45 PM

Oh, I think so. Because it's not so much about music in particular as music among other things. Besides, it won't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:39 AM

Why the Hyperbole? Because some music has become the property and territory of show-biz, I should think. Salesmanship is important if you want to sell something, and you have to make it sound bigger and better.
Most of the musicians I've met seem reasonably modest people, and if any of them get aggrandised, it will likely be some kind of promoter that does it.
Classical and folk seem to be fairly innocent of the practice, insofar as there aren't too many 'legends in their own lunchtime' in these genres. Maybe that has something to do with the company they play to.
It would be hard to promote someone as super special to a public who has been listening to the worlds fine orchestras for 30 years, or an audience half of whom are performers too.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Splott Man
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:53 AM

Don't we use the word "legendary" to refer to a great talent or influence who had their moment in the sun a while back, but are no longer popular (I use that word in a non show biz sense), but we remember in positive way.

Maybe "legendary" refers to stories about them, rather than their work.

I don't know. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Chris Green
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:30 AM

Orpheus is a truly legendary musician!

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:39 AM

I think that we'd have to wait until long after they're dead to determine their place in the musical hierarchy, just as we have to do for artists in other forms of art.

JS Bach towers over his children (except for PDQ, of course). But whether Johnson surpasses Coltrane is up for discussion, as is the superiority of, oh, Woody Guthrie over Pete Seeger or Joan Miro over Pablo Picasso or Shakespeare over Lope de Vega.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 09:37 AM

I always thought that if you existed in real life, you couldn't be legendary.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Splott Man
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

I think live people qualify.
For instance...
You are legendary if I and many others have heard stories of your prowess for many years but never witnessed it directly or indirectly, because you don't give us many opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:10 AM

Willie Nelson is legendary.

So is Earl Scruggs

So is Ralph Stanley

Some people at Mudcat are definately legends in their own mind.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:02 PM

orpheus made the sun rise cos he knew how to play (ISB)


we are all legends in our own minds with our own mythology, complete with demons and deities, Martin - and we should be allowed those conceits and small dignities, as a bulwark against an indifferent an largely hostile world..

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:13 PM

Far out and groovy. peace, love, dove.

Pass me a toke.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:15 PM

The problem with being called "Legendary" is that it's the last category before "the late".

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:08 PM

oh come on Harvey - surely you're glad you're a legend. Anyway John Lee Hooker went on being a legend for about 40 years - theres no specific length of tenure.

And Martin - damn right. we are stardust, we are go-olden...and we've got to get our way back to the garden, and theres no rush to get down the manure.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:37 PM

Well, initially the word "legend" comes from a medieval genre of narrative that we now call the "Saint's Life." I would guess that calling people "legendary" means that they are to music what a saint is to religion: people who fulfill the highest ideals of musical life.

Alternately, "legendary" may refer to musicians who are not only important, but about whom there are lots of cool stories.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: pdq
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:17 PM

If you had to do an interview, a biography or a documentary about a musician, how would you refer to him? "Over-the-hill guitar player who can't carry a tune in a bucket". NO! You start by building him up to sound important. "This is the story legendary entertainer and folk singer 'New Mexico' Exxon..."

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:33 PM

Grow up, weelittledrummer.

This is the 21st century. It's leaving you behind.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:55 PM

ah you got me there Martin - reminds me a bit of The Sunshine Boys -
You heard that phrase - where its at - well I'm where its at!
Walter Matthau

yeh course I'm an old fart!

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:12 PM

The OED has not caught up with this development, but MWC10 gives "a person or thing that inspires legends" as one definition of "legend", and "well-known, famous" as one definition of "legendary". There is nothing out of the ordinary in such a usage, but it is a fad, and I find it tiresome. When large numbers of people start using a word on every possible occasion, IMO, sensible people stay away from it. So also for the faddish uses of define, impact, reinvent, identity, etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 07:38 AM

I disagree that folk music doesn't often invoke the legendary thing. I think folk music has done it ad nauseum, perhaps more than most music genres.

I think use of the word to describe musicians is, as others have stated, a marketing thing. The word being used to describe Dylan has to be the most overused, despite the fact that the Beatles truly kicked his ass out of the ballpark in terms of popularity, musicality, and lyric writing ability.

It is curious that music has so overused the marketing term, I agree. I think that has something to do with the delusional belief that music is a more spiritual art form than all the others. Musicians have long used this "legend" to get laid, which is a tad ironic, don't you think? Especially for such an emotionally overwrought art form? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:46 AM

Like, when I heard "Ladies and Gentlemen -- the legendary Britney Spears!"????

Well, maybe -- someone who causes legends to happen when they're still alive:

The legendary William Shatner.
The legendary Monica Lewinsky.
The legendary Justin Timberlake.
The legendary Tom De Lay.
The legendary Don King.
The legendary Hanson.
The legendary Celine Dion.
The legendary Charles Manson.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:22 AM

Hello

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:40 AM

Rapaire, your list proves that the term "legendary" does not always have to inflect a positive image.

All of those mentioned are in their own way, "legendary."

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:34 PM

Ladies and gentlemen! The legendary Martin Gibson....!

well it works for me

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM

Used that way, you are really saying: The one, the ONLY, Britney Spears/Martin Gibson/, et al, as in 'Yes, folks! This is the one you've been hearing about!', as one might hear in circus acts. Hardly legendary. 'Legendary', to me, connotes one who inspires legends in time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:10 PM

weelittle drummer, Thank you, thank you very much!


ebbie, my legend here is already well established in this circus known as Mudcat. I've worked hard at it and because of it you have something to talk about in your other wise fairly uneventful life.

as for britney, let's talk about how much money she is making for just looking so good.

Futher thoughts on your part to keep you busy?

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:44 PM

Grandiosity does not equate to legendary.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:58 PM

Don't know who to give the credit here, but "somebody" said "The difference between fame and importance is the difference between Madonna and Mother Theresa."

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 05:24 PM

Your right, but people will line up to see Madonna naked and never would for Mother Theresa.

Legends can be society specific in other words. And not to just one's own narrow perception.

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 07:31 PM

yeh you got to watch out for those -iosities

curiosity killed the cat
high velocity killed Kennedy
grandiosity does not equate to legend

watch out for those three and you will be all right.

go placidly and remeber we are stardust

Subject: RE: BS: 'legendary' musicians
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:13 PM

Martin,

I like your list. I would add Bill Monroe and Bob Dylan to it.

Subject: RE: 'legendary' musicians
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 07:50 AM

....still trying to get my mind around the thought of seeing Mother Theresa naked.... :-)

Subject: RE: 'legendary' musicians
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 04:04 PM

Steve Latimer, yes good call on those 2.

Getting in to dead ones opens this up big time.

Hank williams and Johnny Cash. for sure Waylon.

Subject: RE: 'legendary' musicians
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 04:37 PM

Are you differentiated "musician" from "entertainer" and including a three group to account for the overlap?

I've know some musicians who were wonderful -- technically skilled, artistically brilliant, but who couldn't "entertain" to save their souls. Likewise, there are those who entertain but can't tell a quarter note from a quarter dollar.

And then there are those that combine the best of both....

Subject: RE: 'legendary' musicians
From: shepherdlass
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 04:39 PM

Strikes me that there are a lot of legendary musicians in traditional music - the worlds of legend and oral transmission being close relatives. Obvious examples would be the Leadbelly "Goodnight Irene" prison legend; the Jimmy Allan, wild Northumbrian piper and horse thief legend; all the legends of traveller singers like Jeannie Robertson; the legend of Django's fingers. Legends don't have to be overblown fictions of PR machines, so "legendary"seems a fair enough label, if a tad overused.

Subject: RE: 'legendary' musicians
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:21 AM

Martin Gibson,

To that I would add Jimmy Martin. Any and all of the Carters.