BS: Wicca and Halloween??

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:04 AM

Having read through all the above crap posted anonymously by the infamous "Guest", who seemed to want to ally Wicca/Witchcraft with British nationalism amongst all the other garbled nonsense he/she/it was spewing forth - it is interesting to note that the UK does not have a national holiday at this time of the year, but 1st November is celebrated in France and Italy (bastions of the Catholic church) and Germany (home of much of such as Calvinism). OK - so they are celebrating All Saints Day, rather than All Hallows Eve - but the roots of the two are the same, and closely related to the adoption of November 5th as "Bonfire Night" in the UK.

Share and enjoy!

epn

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: MBSLynne
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:44 AM

And Martinmas was also the time when all the livestock except the breeding stock was slaughtered so it wouldn't have to be fed through the winter. Probably was the same as Halloween once when you consider that the difference between the old and new calendars was 11 days

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:48 AM

Martinmas is a different holiday, Nov 11. Whether the festival per se has any significance to the story of the ballad can be debated. Martinmas itself commemorates the death and burial of Martin of Tours, so this has nothing to do with the ballad. However, Martinmas was a quarter day in Scotland, meaning that it was reckoned to be the advent of a season, in this case winter. It is for this reason that in the ballad the soldiers take up their winter quarters at Martinmas Time. One could see this function of beginning the winter as a survival or reflection of the original meaning of Hallowe'en, and thus one could say that Hallowe'en has some slight significance to the ballad.

There's a great version of this ballad by Paul Brady and Andy Irvine!

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 05:39 AM

I think that the same festival is called Martinmas.
There is a song called
Martinmas Time

in DT. Is the festival significant to the story?

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:26 AM

Cats: not quite. All Saints is older than 993: The Feast was observed annually on May 13th until the time of Bishop of Rome, Gregory III (d. 741) when its observance was shifted to Nov. 1, since on this date Gregory dedicated a chapel in the Basilica of St. Peter's to "All the Saints." It was Gregory IV (d. 844), who in 835 ordered the Feast of All Saints to be universally observed on Nov. 1.

The date you were looking for was 998, which was the establishment of All Souls day on the following day, Nov 2.

As far as we can tell, this is how Hallowe'en came to be

1) originally there was indeed Samhain, which appears to have been a combination harvest/end of summer/new year for the Celts, particularly in ireland. In Irish sagas, the fairies and other supernatural beings (dragons, apparitions, etc) are particularly active at Samhain, and the supernatural tyrants the Fomorians come at that time to exact their tribute. This idea survived until early modern times in Scotland, where in the ballad Tam Lin the evil fairies ride in a troop on Halloween, and the Devil exacts his tribute then as well.

There is little indication of how (or if) it was observed as a holiday in antiquity, but certain sagas (such as "The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel") suggest bonfires. Also, there is some indication that the Continental Celts also observed this holiday--a day called Samonios turns up on the Gaulish Coligny calendar at about the same time of year.

2) in the 6th Century Pope Gregory hit on the idea of incorporating rather than stamping out pagan holidays. Thus Samhain/Samonios became All Saints Day by some time in the 8th century. It was supposed to be a time to celebrate all the saints, especially those who did not have their own dedicated feast day. From the middle English word that means both "holy" and "saint," "Halwe," we get "hallowed," and from All Halwes we get get all hallows. The night before this day became All Hallows Evening, or Hallowe'en for short.

3) the problem was, this religious saints fest was still being celebrated by many as a kind of day of the dead. So the church tried again to re-incorporate it, by creating All Souls Day, a day of commemorating the dead, on Nov. 2nd. This became Dia de Los Muertos in Mexican tradition. Also, election day for Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM

artbrooks: in my first post I did offer my opinion on this matter as a practicing witch. But to reiterate: It would not surprise me if those wanting to "ban" Hallowe'en for fear of offending "Wiccans" actually have their own right-wing Christian interests at heart...and I base this opinion on having seen this tactic used before in the public arena.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:41 PM

Frankly, Paul, I don't give a damn. I just want to see accuracy in what is said.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:26 PM

I think some stereo types about mudcatters are being reinforced here.The ones about over opinionated people trying to put others down because they think some thing slightly different. I thought flaming others religions would be against some sort of rules, it would appear not.

In answer to the question, I wouldn't expect too many wiccans or witches too be worried about schools banning halloween dressing up in the USA. Anything to help bring a holiday back to celebration, rather than spending cash, is likely to be appreciated. However, if the cause were some dodgy Christian group acting in an underhand manner then that is a cause of concern for many.

You know guys, its a party. If it has meaning to some people, why worry about telling them they're crazy? Why not just relax and enjoy it? Oh, I'm sure you can come up with a million reasons. Because you're like that, aren't you.

Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Cats
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:15 PM

AD 993 was when the Catholic Church 'invented' All Saints Day (anorak here!)to tag on to Samhain or whatever you choose to call it.

Some of my closest friends are witches, pagans, wiccans etc and they are the kindest and most generous people I know, along with Folkies... and when you put the two lots in the same field at a Folk Festival, you can't ask for better.

Blessed be.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Hollowfox
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:06 PM

I'm with you PoppaGator.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:53 AM

Correct, Obie, as far as I know.

The Catholic (Christian) Church also took over Jul/Saturnalia and made it Christmas, February 1/2 and made it into St. Brigid's Feast and Candlemas, Midsummer, and August 15, not to mention others.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

Saten worship was unknown to the Celtic people. While they did believe that there were evil spiritual forces, they were feared not worshipped.
Society was agricultural and forces of good promoted good crop growth and evil forces promoted crop failures. When the crops failed the people starved. With that in mind who the Hell would worship the forces of evil.
   The early Christian church was unable to stamp out the Celtic festival of Samhain , so it tried to justify the celebration by designating it as "All Hallows." ( If you can't lick 'em join 'em!)
             Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:21 AM

I was on the PTA of my kid's school about 15 years ago, and a fundie mum who was also tried suggesting that we should ban all Halloween celebrations because they were Satan worship.

I laid into then and there, everyone agreed with me that this was a wonderfully creative and important holiday for children, and the conversation was never held again. Sometimes all it takes is someone with some common sense to stand up to the lunatics. Of course, that requires that the entire group being addressed isn't a bunch of lunatics. That's a difficult case to argue here in Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST,aMUSEd
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:32 AM

Foul words are telltale signs
of weak ideas and feeble minds

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:28 AM

Can any of you lot fly on broomsticks then?

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:11 AM

Personally, I's still be interested in knowing if any Wiccans or practicing witches have an opinion regarding US schools banning witch costumes as an insult to their religion. Perhaps they would appear if the squabbling children would shaddup.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:52 AM

I've read it, Sledge. Twice. And have interviewed the author. I don't think anything I've written regarding modern witchcraft in this thread deviates very far from Hutton's findings.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:24 AM

Maybe both sides on this spat should head off to the bookstore/library/Amazon and read "The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft" by Ronald Hutton. Another of this mans excellent books, academic but readable, sympathetic to the subject but not unquestioning.

Regards

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:46 AM

Poor woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:07 AM

: )

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:11 PM

Those who deserve sweet, get sweet Amos... you know that!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:01 PM

Clinton!! You came BAAAACK!! Oh, joy!! Even though you said you wouldn't!! Yippeeeeee!!


LOL!! I thought getting hitched was gonna sweeten yer cud fer ya, Clint, but looks like nope!! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:55 PM

"Basically, it's the same answer to the question of "How Does ClintonHammond feel?"
Never claimed differently Chris...

"misanthropic ravings..."
Now THERE'S the pot calling the kettle....

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:30 PM

The "guest" above is Scotch Boab! Sorry ---[but not for the content!]

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:28 PM

Dear "Guest" [31st October 1.27 pm]--and you too, Clinton---
Rab Burns once did threaten to land in the Americas, but never quite did it. A short reference to his verse will turn up a perfect description of the Scottish halloween ["Hall'e'en"] as celebrated in the mid 1700s. America didn't even know much about ITSELF 'way back then, never mind about Halloween! I don't carry a great muckle torch for Halloween, or any other celebratory festival, but I admire truth and detest crap!

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason...


Yes. The reason is that the individual forwarding them and using them is too self-absorbed, lazy, misanthropic or unable to want to observe or discover facts, and there fore needs to defend himselffrom the pain of understanding by falling into automatic, knee-jerk mechnaisms like false stable beliefs, sterotypes, generalizations about large classes of people which are not in fact defensible, and other mechanisms frequently needed by the weak or lazy mind.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

well said, Chris, and yet we stil have to endure his misanthropic ravings...

oh well, Happy Hallowe'en.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:12 PM

Basically, it's the same answer to the question of "How Does ClintonHammond feel?"

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:22 PM

I never said all, did I... There you go again, reading what you WANT to see instead of what's on the screen... Another reason to dismiss your opinions and your flimsy objections flat outright... and I know more about pagan/wiccan nonsense than I care to think about... and my assessment of it is that it's a load of stupid invented superstitious nonsense...

And when it comes to myself, MY personal opinion IS the last word... just like yours is to you... and ONLY you....

D'uh

And well, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason...

You may now bluster and rage all you want, because I shall not be back to waste any more energy bandying this stupidity around.... My answer to "How do wiccans feel" remains, "Who the f#ck cares"

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:04 PM

Your opinion does not matter to ME--but you throw it around this website with authority as if it's the last word when you barely have any idea what you're talking about...
whether I agree with your opinion or not is immaterial--you simply happen to be WRONG in your stereotypical assessment of ALL witches, Wiccan, pagans et al. Ignorant people do tend to see things as rather black and white, I find.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Nemesis
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:01 PM

BTW (and not wishing to add or detract) (?)

Professor Brian Bates, Professor of Pyschology @ Brighton University, Professor of (award-winning) Shamanic Consciousness studies @ University of Sussex, senior advisor to the Ford Foundation on global indigenous people's wisdom (the preserving of), co-author of the "Human Face" with John Cleese, etc etc

his cult classic "The Way of Wyrd" based on preserved Anglo-Saxon spiritual teachings - 1,000 year old Wizard's spell book "The Lacnunga" at the British Library - is being reissued today (Hallowe'en)
and he's interviewed on www.bbc.co.uk/england/southerncounties on 7 November at 8am GMT (audio streaming)

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:00 PM

"You spend loads of time doing all sorts of Ren Faire-y role-playing swords and sorcery and computer geek-y stuff "
Now who's going off without a clue what she's talking about? I quit going to re-fairs, Fantasy and Sci-fi Cons and SCA meetings years and years ago, for mostly the same reasons I quit the 'new age' groups I was in... The nerd-factor of 99% of the people involved was too much, even for me...

"most of the Canadian pagans and witches I have met have been complete assholes..."
See, I can say say the same thing, without nationality being a factor.. Most of the 'pagans and witches' -I- have met have not only been assholes... they've been idiots too...

"doesn't mean it's appropriate for you to paint a community of millions of people with the same broad brush."
I calls 'em as I see's 'em... you don't have to agree... Or even LIKE my assessment... I don't care...

Appropriate?
My opinion matters to you why?

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:51 PM

Clinton, you are such a damn hypocrite! You spend loads of time doing all sorts of Ren Faire-y role-playing swords and sorcery and computer geek-y stuff and you have the gall to criticize witches and pagans for being "new age"??
Just because you happened to associate with some people you thought were "new agey" doesn't mean it's appropriate for you to paint a community of millions of people (who happen to actually be pretty diverse and different from each other) with the same broad brush.

And for what it's worth, most of the Canadian pagans and witches I have met have been complete assholes...most of them rather ignorant and pretentious and megalomaniacal. So maybe that's who you were hanging around with. But I am not prepared to say ALL Canadian pagans are assholes (doesn't seem possible) so maybe you should back off when applying your same tired old stereotypes as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:43 PM

I know of several uptight fundamentalist families (both Catholic and Protestant) who extend every effort to put an ill-tempered damper on Halloween fun, but fortunately not any members of this other new-age camp who apprently exercise the same prejudice for different (opposite?) reasons.

Why not enjoy *every* available celebration, focus your consiousness on the interpretation or "spin" that most appeals to your own tastes and beliefs, and let others with different beliefs celebrate each of these festivals in their own ways?

If I may digress, and discuss a similarly controversial festival/holiday coming up soon:

As a professional Santa Claus, I've developed a strong interest in pre-Christian concepts of Yuletide, and I continue to respect and enjoy the Christian celebration of Chritmas as well. I recognize that there are negative aspects to the modern commercialization of the holiday, but strongly assert that this is NOT, by any means, all bad. And I don't feel a bit of guilt over my participation as I earn some much-needed seasonal extra income.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Chris Green
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM

Hang on a sec. It so happens that I don't believe in the Wicca/pagan thing either - in fact come to think of it I don't really believe in anything as far as religion goes. However, I know a lot of people who do believe in some form of higher power or life force or whatever and derive a great deal of comfort and support from their beliefs. As far as proving a religion is right or wrong goes, well, you can't. Finer minds than yours and mine have tried and failed! And incidentally, GUEST, atheism is a religious standpoint too and it's just as easy for atheists to be self-righteous and evangelical too!

God, the Earth Mother or random fluctuations in the space-time continuum bless you all!

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM

The ignorants ussually agree with each other.. I met some too, wonder ful views, wonderful people....

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:22 PM

Y'll can call me any damn names you want, but it isn't going to make what I said wrong, or dumb-ass Thomas Tyron suppers any smarter. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:19 PM

Witches if there black or white witches are nuts,I agree with you Mr C.H.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:16 PM

" Modern witches and pagans"

Ya... new-age clap-trap...   I've been there... I tried it... I've associated with these people... they tend to be exactly as I describe 'em and as Peg shows by example...

"I think they are all nuts"
Here here guest... I agree with your assessment...

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:08 PM

The ignorant cannot be taken seriously, can they BLANK MAN? Get a name...

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:04 PM

No, I think it's your blatant stupidity that has struck at her heart "Guest". A pity you haven't even got the guts to say who you are but must hide behind an anonymous. Perhaps you might be taken more seriously if you used your proper name.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:38 PM

Apparently my words have struck close to your New Age heart peg.

Of course you are completely right that I have no respect for the belief systems of pagans and witches, any more than I do for fundamentalist Baptists or evangelical Catholics.

I think they are all nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:32 PM

Dumbass GUEST: I never used the word "Celtic."

I have little to no interest in the Golden Dawn (or is that British Nationalists?)

And I believe I was the one who said Hallowe'en came to America by way of Ireland first, not you, Dorkface, so don;t try to act like you're on to something here. (Heck, you don't have a name so I may as well make one up).

Modern witches and pagans refer to the holiday as Samhain, and not Hallowe'en, for a reason. Simply because you have no respect for their belief systems doesn't make their beleifs any less valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Chris Green
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:32 PM

Matthew Hopkins is clearly NOT dead!

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:27 PM

Now, now peg, downloading An Focloir Beag does not a Gaeilgoir make!

Halloween isn't "Celtic". Halloween is an American holiday, with roots in Irish ancestor worship.

Halloween is not some romantic nationalist "Samhain" pagan festival, delusions of Golden Dawn wiccan wannabes notwithstanding.

See here, young lady.

It is so easy to suss out both the New Agers and the British nationalists this time of year.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:18 PM

open mike...the "dumb supper" is a way of honoring the dead by inviting them to share a meal. It is also similar to the Irish custom of leaving a plate of food and drink for dead ancestors or the fairy folk at this time of year...

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: open mike
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:15 PM

ok here are some links about dumb suppers:
http://www.widdershins.org/vol7iss5/02.htm
and here:
http://www.tartanplace.com/hcustom/jackolantern.html
so now i see it is dumb as in deaf and dumb...
meaning--no speech--silent...

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:02 PM

Dear dumbass GUEST...yes, Samhain is also the word used for November, but its actual MEANING in Gaelic is "summer's end." I've studied Gaelic, you see. Have you?

Just because you haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about, do me the favor of allowing that I just might.

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: open mike
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:59 PM

what are "dumb suppers"?
stuff like macaroni and cheese from a box?
or a fast food burger??
or maybe just oreos from the pkg.?

Subject: RE: BS: Wicca and Halloween??
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM

Wiccans are absolutely, cluelessly hysterically funny with all their Halloween "Samhain" crap.

"Samhain" Celtic-mystically speaking, is the Irish word for "November".

Isn't that profoundly spiritual?