BS: is there a East - West divide in the US

Subject: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: muppett
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM

I've been following the thread 'Fuck the South'and I wondered as an outsider whether or not there is a East - West divide in the US as well i.e. the Califorian lifestyle as opposed to say the New York or Washington DC lifestlye and is this reflected in political views as well. As in other posts I've posted this is a genuine query and not intended at taking a pop at America, so can I have your thoughts please.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: MMario
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:37 AM

Of course not! It just looks that way to outsiders - like the apparent antipathy between New Englanders and New Yorkers;or the dislike of most New Englanders for Boston - or the rivalry between Cape Cod and Nantucket.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

Nah, we're pretty cool about it. Just because New York Cityites think that the country ends at the Hudson (except for LA)....

Seriously, there are different life styles. For instance, outdoor activities from active birding to skiing to hunting mountain lions to fly fishing are REALLY big here in Idaho -- over 85% of the population engage in one or several. Nobdy thinks much of them OR castigates those who pursue them.

In urban areas, such as Washington, DC, it's different. Tell someone there you're going deer hunting and the response could well be a lecture on animal rights.

There isn't so much an East-West or North-South divide as there is an Urban-Rural one.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: jimmyt
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:33 AM

I have lived in all four corners of this huge country. My observations, although probably not completely objective are as follows:

Midwesterners or Easterners generally think the folks in the south are slow witted because they talk funny. Southerners generally think everyone from the rest of the country (generally referred to as Yankees) are not to be trusted because they talk funny, as well as share their opinions on how much better things were back in New Jersey, Minnesota or wherever.

Californians are a very different breed of cat. They somehow think that they are on the cutting edge of everything but in reality are in ways behind the rest of the country. Malls closed at 6 0'clock in the evenings on weekends when I was there and they hadn't managed after hour banking or lots of things that were the norm in the east. (this was in the 80s so I imagine they have changed, but I still know people from there and they have a mindset that pretty much everything begins and ends in southern California.

The east coast from Washington DC to BOston is largely one big urban area. I think the nicest most genuine, but in-your-face folks in AMerica live in that corridor.

America does seem to have some tribalism issues, though. If you live in any state in the midwest, you tend to only want to live in your state...forever...until you move to Florida when you retire. If you live in the south, anyplace is fine,,, as long as it is in Dixie. Californians can only live there...forever... because they can't find organically grown sprouts and yoga instructors anywhere else. Well, this should clear it all up for you.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM

DC&NY vs. California? Nah...the real America is someplace in the middle. TV, especially the types of programs that get exported, don't have much in common with most of us.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: MMario
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 10:12 AM

In the long run - I think the Urban versus rural is probably the biggest split - but I know people who consider themselves to "live in the sticks" who seem to live practically in the heart of the city to me!

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

Yes. Urban vs. rural. But that implies liberal vs. conservative, employed vs. not, non-religious vs. hyper-religious, international vs. nativeist. The splits have always been there. These days they seem wider and deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM

I don't really think so. There are people in every state who like to make enemies.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: muppett
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:30 AM

Please explain mack/misophist

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:41 AM

There might very well be, I don't really know.

One thing though, anybody from outside the US who tries to exploit that had better recall the words to a Charlie Daniels song:

"We'll all stick together, and you can take that to the bank,
Bless the cowboy and the hippie, The rebels and the yanks"

We like to fight amongst ourselves like any siblings in a big family, but in times of trouble we are usually just that, a big family!

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:42 AM

No, mack/misophist. The media and the politicians would like you to think so, but it's not the case at all. Because you live in an urban setting in the US doesn't mean that you are a flaming liberal anymore than the fact that I live in a small city in a rural area means I'm a neocon. While 52% of the local population is LDS, it doesn't mean that they are in lockstep with Salt Lake City any more than every Anglican follows the rules laid down by Canterbury.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: muppett
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

ER excuse me but what does LDS mean Rapaire

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: jimmyt
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:48 AM

I was just going to say that the last 2 posts have said a lot. Chief Chaos and Rapaire have said what I believe to be true.


Generalizations are not as accurate in America as they might be in Europe as we really have been a giant melting pot pretty much since our inception rather than having a thousand years of fairly pure bloodlines as you all have in ENgland and the rest of Europe. No-one here has been here very long.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:37 PM

LDS= Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...commonly called Mormon

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM

The East coast being 'older' has lots of areas which retains some values and habits and traditions that don't resonate with those who moved 'out West' in seach of more independance, etc....so you get a bit of cultural difference there, but with modern travel and TV and such, those aren't quite as pronounced as they were even 30-40 years ago.
The place is so durn big, it is hard to generalize....except that Southern California IS on a different plane..*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:06 PM

I don't claim the split is hard edged and absolute but it's very real. As an example, the majority (or plurality, it varies) of peace time military recruits have always been rural. Why? Because rural areas tend to be more traditionally patriotic, because employment opportunities are often limited, because the tax base is usually small (fewer social programs), and because the great religious revivals of the 19th century and the early part of this one were a mostly rural phenominon and have largely maintained their rural base. The border state economies are more closely concerned with other countries and thus aware of what they're like. Tesas is an exception because the Mexican economy isn't really that strong. Not like the Pacific Rim of Europe. One could also claim that a larger number of rural citizens are naive or unsophisticated, more susecptible to skillful manipulation. This may be changing. Remember,too, that rural areas are, almost by definition, focused on agriculture; which our government does not support very well in the case of small farmers.

Rapaire: The LDS are a special case. The few Mormons I've known who were willing to discuss their religion tell me that the classic LDS social mechanisms don't work well in areas where they are not a clear majority. Here, for example, Mormons are forced to live both "in the world" and "of the world". All the Mormons I know personally think of themselves as Jack Mormons (not quite real Mormons). None of them feel too guilty about drinking "hot drinks", sub-standard tithing, failure to be concerned about what's conducive to faith, or minor church pronouncements. This isn't true of all of them, naturally, but it must vitiate the mandatory Mormon respect for authority. I note also that few of them wear "garments" of maintain the required food stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 03:57 PM

In Chicago, North siders and South Siders think they are each full of crap.

One, because of the White Sox and Cubs and two, south siders are considered total morons because they use ketchup on a kosher hot dog.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM

In Australia, there is often fierce rivalry between the states, especially in Sports, but if an outsider tries to play on it, they pull together, just like said above about the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:26 PM

"We're South Side Chicago as our fathers were before
We put ketchup on our hot dogs and we're boorish to the core
Them kosher dogs don't taste real good, so let the ketchup pour
We're South Side Chicago - let's pour and pour and pour!!"

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 06:19 PM

I think that everyone so far answering on the thread has been right on. The US is a wonderful hodge-podge of interlaced cultures and history that has tended to make us more of a tossed salad than a melting pot. Pick a place, any place, and you will find a layered textured background that may seem endless.

As to whether there is as great an East vs West as North vs South, the short answer is NO, there was no East vs West WAR.

As to the thread "F" the South. I got a few laughs out of it, but the South is not to be taken lightly. Southerners have a unique identity through loss, occupation, and major values shift imposed from outside. They also have a pride of arms. But southerners were also slaves. Southerners were also French Canadians evicted by the British. Southerners are also native Americans and Hispanics. And Southerners have been recent Presidents of the whole US of A.

I went through the South on a motorcycle with Massachusetts plates. I was heading into what the locals call 'swamper' country in Georgia to see the Okefenokee Swamp, and a bit nervous. I remember asking a local gas station attendant what the people were like and he said something akin to "swampers" being independent and kind of contrary.
I gave him a look and said "All I want is a chance".

He gave me a look back and said, "That's all they want."

I felt much better about things, and had a wonderful trip through the South.

Don't confuse Texas with the South. Texas is Texas. It was an independent country for a whole three years and they won't ever let you forget it. In Alaska we say we will someday split the state in half and make Texas the third largest state, but in their hearts Texans still feel they're the biggest state.

Rather than go on about how poorly understood we all are, I'd rather celebrate some of the bright folk who I think really caught on to who we are, if indeed we are anything. Historically, there is that classic by the great French traveler and author Alexis De Tocqueville "Democracy in America", right up to "Letter From America" broadcast by Alistair Cooke for most all his adult life.

As to East versus West, having grown up on both coasts, there are profound differences. The West Coast smells totally different than the East. Compared to Europe, not so great. California is typecast as tolerant but shallow, New England as egotistical and cold (but once you've lived in a place for three generations they begin to accept you). In the West, California is distinct from Utah is different from NEvada. Coastal is different from inland which is desert. Then there are mountains. I'd link up Wyoming with Idaho, Eastern Washington, Montana, and the Dakotas. There is a spectrum of culture almost everywhere you look. These are truisms, but when you're actually dealing with people you find it's the people you know and actually talk to and make friends with who matter. That's true the world around.


Alaska is (pen) insular. The rest of the country is "Outside" , or "The Lower Forty-Eight". And we don't care "How They Do It Outside".

If I'd generalize about Americans, I'd say a sense of optimism, idealism, and space. A bit too much pride, a bit too little humility, a great sense of self-criticism and no lack of confidence ever, ever, ever.

In the end it is the observer who effects the observation. If you are open-minded you will find people who are open minded. And that's true in most places in my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

We have a somewhat similar problem in Canada. For example, everyone who doesn't live in Alberta lives elsewhere. It's the same in Ontario. If you don't live there then you live elsewhere, too. It has been a dilemma for years, and we just don't know what to do about it. Anyway, I thought I'd inject some Canadian spin on an American thread, because we don't want our brothers and sisters to the south and north and east and west of us to feel they alone have to battle the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: GUEST,CK
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

I think it's more of an urban-rural divide. People in Denver, CO, are probably more in line with people in Pittsburgh than with people in small town CO. People in small town CO probably have more in common with people in small town Maine than they do with people in Denver. New York (east) and San Fran (west) are probably more in-synch than New York (east) and McConnelsburg, PA (east). The east-west divide, I think, is breaking down because of our mobility: most people who live in CO for example are originally from somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

Almost everyone I know here in Idaho seems to have come here from somewhere else. Heck, we've even got people here from (shudder!) New Jersey.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:16 PM

Robomatic's post is eloquent and it demonstrates one of America's most heroic and endearing myths. We all believe it at least part of the time. But religion and religious feeling is playing an increasing part in our national politics. European history shows how destructive that can be. It began to become apparent when mandatory school prayer was outlawed and picked up momentum when abortion was legalized. There can be little doubt that evangelical protestant organizations played a role, perhaps a crucial one in the recent election. They think so and are already demanding paybacks.

Likeable, friendly, tolerant individuals are everywhere. So are intolerant groups. The amazing thing is how many otherwise good people support causes that are intolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:18 PM

The wonderful thing about the US is our diversity that sometimes causes our disharmony. If you accept that the civil war was really based on economic considerations and not totally about freedom of slaves, we have generally gotten over ouselves and our differences. I don't claim that God is on our side, but after having toured the US, seen the wonders and met the wonderful people, I can truly say that God has blessed us. That does not mean that we are better, bigger or badder than anyone else, I can just appreciate this country and am thankful for all of the opportunities that she has given me.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:38 PM

Rapaire - I live in New Jersey and would not dream of relocating to Idaho. How anybody can stand to breath air they cannot see is beyond me.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:57 PM

Here's an interesting perspective on the Religious Right in the US from Cal Thomas, who is definitely NOT in the liberal camp....

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:05 PM

A different knd of difference: way back before rock n' roll there was a definite difference between East Coast and West Coast jazz. There was pretty much the same difference between W & E visual arts. Maybe true in writing, too-- East Coast was more starched; perhaps academic; West Coast was more laid back. Sort of like Apollonian & Dionysian. Both schools could play in the same band, though... Does this still hold?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:56 PM

In jazz, at least, the distinction between the east and west coasts appears to be long gone. A pity. I think it gave it more depth.

In the visual arts, I think the distinction was always minor.

As far as "serious" literature is concerned, who can tell?

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:03 AM

"In the visual arts, I think the distinction was always minor."

Didn't seem so to me: I thought it was obvious. But the power & prestige were all in New York, and artists in the provinces didn 't show up much. Mark Tobey and Morris Graves in Seattle made a bit of a splash though, and the first figurative art that cracked abstract expressionism came from the west in the early sixties.

I don't know about writing; Tom Robbins and Gary Snyder seem definitely West coast, even Northwest Coast -- Gary's actually Left Coast -- and Tom Wolfe is East, and Philip Roth, but would Allan Ginsberg be East coast if I didn't know where he came from? The Jewish New Yorker shows through, though, I think. Kerouac sounds east to me... is this 'serious' literature?

I think I like talking about this dichotomy (?) better than political differences…

clint

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: muppett
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:22 AM

Wow Cheers everybody who's chipped in, this is facinating, give more.
I work as a community worker in Bradford in West Yorkshire (England). Bradford is a melting pot of Folk from all over the world, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, the Carribean, Africa, Ireland,Europe as well as folk who have settled here from other parts of the UK.So Community Cohesion is the flavour of the moment here, particularly as an aftermath of the riots we had here a few years back. I've been involved in a number of 'dispelling myths' events across the City over the past couple of years, whereby Community members from the whole range of Ethnic groups mentioned have attended and the object of the events were to break down the myths and rumours that had been allowed to grow about certain groups of people and look at how we could work together as BRADFORDIANS, but still have a respect and understanding for each others beleifs & cultures. It's slow work and there's still a lot to do but I think it's slowly paying off. So I'm facinated by what's happening elswhere.
Cheers and keep the comments coming.
Muppett

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: RangerSteve
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:52 AM

MarkS, you need to get out of the city. I live in NJ, too, and I don't have a smog problem. There is a rural NJ. Come to think of it, there's some other splits; north and south Jersey, the Jersey shore and the rest of the state, urban and rural Jersey. Yuppie and human Jersey.

Repaire, come on out and visit sometime.You might actually like it here. We're not the stereotypes you see on TV, anymore then you Idahoans are all white supremacists.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:43 AM

There's a lovely little film called The Station Agent set in rural New Jersey. (I recommend it.) Looks a great place. Everything I'd read about the state had always seemed to present it as a dump. Moral, don't believe everything you read.

East Coast/West Coast Jazz - is there East Coast/West Coast folk?

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: muppett
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:51 AM

Robomatic and or anyone else in Alaska, with the state not actually phyiscally attached to Mainland US, is there a feeling for independance from Washington DC.And could anyone else comment whether or not is this the same for Hawaii.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

RangerSteve, I've been to New Jersey, more than once. Parts of it are lovely -- and I have several friends who actually live there. Like Delaware or Rhode Island or Connecticut or Manhattan, it's not my cuppa -- not because of any issue with the state of the State, but because you have to go so far to get to something besides more people. I'll probably -- almost certainly -- visit NJ again, but I don't see myself living there. Of course, I never envisioned living in Idaho either.

Muppett, a lot of people who live in Alaska -- like a lot of the people in Idaho -- wish Washington DC would simply go away. A couple of bumper stickers I've seen in Alaska:

"If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot 'em?"
"I'm pro-choice: I choose to wear fur, eat meat, and own guns."

I suggeest you read "Fashion means you fur hat is dead" by Mike Doogan. It's a humorous poke at life in Alaska, written by a native Alaskan columnist, and like all humor contains more than a grain of truth.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: muppett
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM

Cheers Rapaire I'll see if I get hold of over ere.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:01 PM

I suppose, if the Russians hadn't sold Alaska to USA back in the 19th century, there'd be a Tsar enthroned there to this day. (I assume the Americans would have stopped the Bolsheviks getting across the Bering Straits.)

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

No, I think that Alaska would be part of Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: is there a East - West divide in the US
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM

I lived in Jersey for three years (Mapleshade area) the place wasn't bad but it was sort of forgotten by time (not in a good way) almost everything badly needed some repair.

About fourteen years ago I attended the EPA Hazardous materials response school in Edison, NJ. From my hotel room I could look out over five superfund sites! NJ suffers from being the New York dumping ground.