Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial

Subject: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

I have two fledgling computer users under my wings, Debby McClatchy and my stepson Josh, and I'm trying to get them past the "frantic panic" stage of learning to use a computer. I got an early-morning call from Debby today. She had called somebody in England early this morning for help, and he suggested she'd better call Joe Offer. She was trying to make columns in Word Pad, and first I had to convince her that this might not be a good idea, and that it wouldn't kill her to try Word Perfect. She wants to go out and buy another book, so she can learn Word Perfect. Now I have to convince her that that might not be a good idea.

I try to teach computer processes by teaching the logic behind the process, so users can think out solutions on their own. This can be difficult with my two fledglings, because they do not wish to learn anything beyond what will solve their current problem, and they want step-by-step instructions and don't want to be bothered with logic. This seems to happen a lot with fledglings, not just my two.

I tried to teach her how the "insert" key works on her keyboard, but she insisted that she wasn't advanced enough to need to know how to do that.

So, what I'm looking for is a program that will force my fledglings to learn the logic of computer processes, so they can do simple Windows functions and word processing. Many moons ago, I went through a tutorial that came with Microsoft Works, and it was a delight. It was interactive entertaining, and it taught just wat a beginning users would need to know for basic computer functions, word processing, and for spreadsheet and database if you want them. Alas, this tutorial is not longer provided with Works, and I haven't been able to find a worthy replacement. I'm looking for something that's entertaining and intellectually satisfying, and something that sneaks in the logical processes so my fledglings won't realize they're learning logic.

Can anybody lead me to a freeware or cheap shareware tutorial that will do this job for me? I love talking to Debby and don't even mind my 15-yr-old stepson - but not when they're all frantic about computer problems.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:08 PM

I think that online tutorials may be your/her best bet, Joe..I don't actually know of a 'program' that does that....but I suspect a Google search for "basic computer tutorial" with clever additions will bring up something..

and...if it turns out that columns are a serious issue, I DO have a program that is specially designed to mess with columns and related issues...Wordpad is useless for most of that...

(p.s.--say hello to Debbie for me!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

(I am running about like crazy today, getting ready for a craft show, so I will be checking this on & off....is there any time frame when she needs all this?)

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:35 PM

Hi, Bill-
I'd like to have something I can download to a disk by Monday. I've promised to drive up the hill and give her a lesson next week.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: nutty
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:49 PM

You might find something here Joe

Teacher Resources

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:23 AM

Joe...here are two version of the program Columnizer.....see description at bottom. Both of these versions have icons at the top--you have to click the ? (help file) to see what each does, but they really DO make working with columns, numbering...etc. easier.
It seems to be hard to find these online any more...the company doesn't seem to still be in business, so I uploaded them to my storage site. (I have not had time to look for tutorials..)

Columnizer2.4 This is an older version, but 'may' be easier to operate.

Columnizer 5 This is newer, with more features...but the interface is harder to fathom...

"Columnizer is a special text editing program for working with column and row data. Processing includes: Realign HTML; Insert into a column of data; Insert a column of data; Copy / Move a column of data; Replace data within a specified column; Total a specified column; Retain / Delete a column of data; Insert a row; Delete a row of data; Delete blank lines; Retain / Delete lines per data; Insert lines per data; Insert a carrage control; Vertical column concatenation; Horizontal column concatenation; Append lines per data; Retain / Delete starting at specified data; Insert data within line before / after specified data; Insert incrementing numbers; Delete leading / trailing blanks; Special Routines; Format data for ReadMe; Sort Ascending / Descending; Break up a single record file."

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:16 AM

Wish I were there to help. It's what I do-teach computer basics, (and I mean BASICS) to senior citizens, who are absolutely sure they can't do it at their age, and also don't want to take the time to learn anything but what will get them started as quickly as possible, both on Word Processing, and more important, on the Internet.

Since you're asking opinions, this is mine. Go out and get them Window XP (or whatever they're working with) for Dummies. Also, get them Internet for Dummies.

I swear by both of them for these reasons-they are made simple enough for anyone to follow, and they will give information AS IT'S NEEDED.

I'd also find these guys someone who can do a few, just a few, one-on-ones with them, and I don't think it should be you. Sorry honey, but the truth is that you KNOW TOO MUCH, and the worst thing you can do is to try to teach them the philosophy when they want to know the mechanics in as simple terms as possible.

I have this down to a couple of basic booklets here via my organization. If you're interested, I'll send them to you (some of it won't apply obviously, as it's got a little info in the back relating to senior centers in the UK. But it's a really simple and easy way to start them off. Let me know via pm, if you want me to do this...I just need the price for xeroxing and posting (sorry, I'm as poor as I can be...I teach for free as a volunteer, but I'm be more than happy to pass along what I've got.)

As I said, those books, though you might want to snub them for their pedestrian sounding names, are well written, amusing to read, and can be followed at one's own pace.

Good luck!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:20 AM

What's a computer? Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:25 AM

It's the thing your cats sits on top of and takes swings at you from, Bob.

;-D

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:29 AM

PS-Word Pad sucks. Tell her not to bother.

My friend has Windows ME. It's the worst piece of %&*&*&%&%, so here's hoping that's not what she's working with!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:44 AM

Joe:

Most of the "cheap" commercial and/or free "Learning Programs" I've seen are geared to very young learners - or to near-senile elders, and are unlikely to hold the interest of a 15 year old. The other kinds are those that "teach" very specific things like Java, C, etc., which are probably not appropriate for your students. The teaching in the latter (for the affordable ones) is usually also pretty superficial.

With respect to your own teaching of these kids, I'll note that I have one very significant associate who seems constitutionally unable to accept any suggestion from me. Anyone else can say the same thing, in the same words, with the same tone of voice, and it's a "miraculous revelation," but as soon as I say "Perhaps you might..." she's off in another world - or an argument. I just put it down to "she love's me." The "emotional stakes" are too high.

You may be encountering something similar with the kids. The theorists of course say that it's all a matter of "learning styles," but sometimes it "just happens."

For more concrete suggestions, an example of something you might be able to use is at:

KCLS Computer Classes, Labs & Tutorials.

Thats the King County (Washington State) Library System (KCLS), and it links to:

Computer Resources: Self paced online lessons

There are a half dozen or so "lessons" there that you can download as .pdf files. The kids can read them on screen or you can print them so they can "work through" them at the computer. You'll need to decide whether they should start at "Computers 101" or go directly to "Word" or "IE." Sorry, there doesn't seem to be a Word (im)Perfect one there.

You may want to look at the individual lessons yourself before turning them over to the kids. The IE lesson, for example, goes fairly quickly through how to change settings you may not want them to know about(?). You'll also need to guess whether the lessons are at appropriate levels of difficulty for their needs.

The KCLS stuff is just an example. You may want to check whether your own local/regional library system has something similar. If you find local resources you may actually be able to find "free classes" the kids could get into. Classroom learning is generally much more effective than "do it yourself" with programs, videos, CDs, etc, if only because most of us are conditioned to pay attention when we "go to a class."

If you can get them to turn on a suitable program for the different tasks they want to do, and get them past feeling intimidated by a couple of programs, they should pretty much train themselves on more advanced things (with occasional help, of course). Once they get started, its just "help." Getting them started is "teaching and learning." Two different things.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:07 PM

I've taught various basic computer courses in my time, and have one piece of advice: don't do what Ellenpoly says!

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:10 PM

The previous anonymous post will of course be ignored as usual.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:26 PM

I assisted a friend who taught adult education computer classes. She taught by the "piece-meal", "what-would-you-like-to-do", orally transmitted method and it drove me c-r-a-z-y! I need to see an orderly outline of what is going on before I start with details. (That's called "Advanced Organizers," but everyone is different.) In Quicken I would rather explore the drop down menus than "Let's write a check" then "Let's see our balance." Which reminds me, you might point out that in most Windows programs there are three ways to do things. 1) drop-down menus 2) keyboard strokes 3) right-click short cut menus.

If you have motivated students, any method works as long as you are available to answer questions. I personally like the dummy books...also the (I forget the name) but they are like cartoons. And I think the theory behind them is sound. When I was in college and had to learn about electricity and instrumental anaylysis, I got a cartoon-type book used to train sailors in the navy - it beat the #$%^&* out of all my intrumental analysis theory books!

One of the frustrating things about teaching young people today, and this may be what you are referring to Joe, is that they find it faster to just try several things until something happens, and they cannot verbalize what they are doing. I once taught trigonometry to a small class of only 12 students. I had some "killer" problems that took an hour to do -- many steps, some required insight, some were busywork. They could cooperate and work as a team - that way the sharpest kid could see the plan of attack, but everyone could participate, whether drawing diagrams or doing the "plug and chug" steps. They loved it until I required them to explain their work, then it was near mutiny!

If I were teaching word processing and could do it one-on-one I would:
1. teach how to "mark it" then "do it." that is, highlight the text with the mouse, then center it, change the color, change the font, delete it, etc.
2. teach how to use the clipboard for cut and paste.
3. teach how to save and name files and how to print your work.
4. teach how to use the help (providing the student browses or listens enough to know some of the vocabulary for what is possible.)
5. let the student write a letter, or memo, or something useful, maybe even insert a picture, and print it out.

If I were teaching general windows:
1. There used to be a good tutorial with one of the versions on the help menu.

If I were teaching the Internet and surfing:
1. Make a distinction between 1) knowing where you want to go and having an address to type in and 2) using a search engine to look stuff up.

I'm tutoring a young fella now who is under the gun (from his parents) to shape up or go to a different school. He doesn't seem to be interested in history (which I find fascinating...I lived the 60's!) or math (knows it all until he has to perform), but he seems interested in computers. He showed up with a huge JavaScript manual which I am quite skeptical of. I referred him to www.javaboutique.com. Also I'm currently looking for the great table tutor site I've used in the past and a JavaScript tutorial. I've yet to find a kid that wants to make a webpage other than using a quick and dirty template. If I ever meet one, the first thing they need to understand is that you can make an HTML page on your own computer, but if you want to "go live" on the 'net you need more info.

My senior citizen uncle first wanted to learn how to insert pictures in his emails. (and he has) Cut and paste saved him since he can't type. He has taken several classes in general computer uses and has a lot of fun with it.

The only people I couldn't teach were the ones who refused to touch the keyboard.

There's more...I'll look for those tutorials...they are great for motivated students who already have a little knowledge. Beginners just need an open mind and someone readily available to answer questions.

PS: I could never teach my husband or either son. They are the self-centered, just-answer-my-question-type, don't confuse me with extra information. Often they don't know that they don't know! And they can manage to hit enough keys in succession to lock up the computer every time!

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:39 AM

Jeez guys, just offerd my two cents! GUEST that was uncalled for. If you don't like someone's advice, don't follow it!

Good luck with however you proceed, Joe.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: NH Dave
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:21 AM

By and large, "The Idiots Guides to XXXX" generally get a person started off in the right direction, and up to the point where they can work on ther own, and are ready to join a Users Group. These can usually answer specific questions the new user experiences, especially if the group has a coaching session for beginners before the main meeting.

With the advent of the Graphical User Interface exemplified by the Macintosh and more recently by Windows, computers are much easier to learn and use.

The best way of learning that I have found, at least for me, is to begin a series of projects that force you to learn specific different skills in each increasingly difficult project, until you finally achieve the level of competence you currently need. Later on when you need to use some more complex task, you will have a solid base to work from. Although I have been exposed to several different programming languages, most Microsoft programs/applications let you go quite a ways before you actually need to use Visual BASIC. There are Internet newsletters teaching how to use Excel and Word, and magazines devoted to Access, should they get interested in database management. While Works is a good combination of several applications, I've found that the transfer from Works to the specific more powerful application like Excel and Word just doesn't flow as smoothly as it might, and you have to unlearn many habits along the way.

Still, it is difficult to persuade a person that he really needs to know this technique or how to do another operation, if his current computer usage has not presented with the challenge in the first place, my argument for learning only what you need to know to do whatever your need to today. But get a good reference book about the program or application you are using, so you will have some place to go for help when you need it. Microsoft Users Manuals leave lots to be desired, but third party books are usually quite thorough.

All the best,

Dave

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 03:15 AM

Well, Ellen, I really think that almost everyone can learn better if they learn how things work, rather than just memorizing step-by-step processes.I thought of getting Debby a "Dummies" book, but I thought she might take it as an insult [grin]. I think I'd agree that they're great books for computer training. They take a more natural, logical approach - teaching users to understand general ideas and discover features as they need them. My 15-yr-old stepson adapts very well to this method of teaching, and he's doing very well - making tables and fooling with HTML, and dreaming of designing 3-D shoot-em-up games.

Debby is more like my ex-wife. She wants those memorized step-by-step processes. That approach drives me crazy. Maybe it's a woman thing, like getting directions to a place instead of reading a map. Come to think of it, my current wife is like that, too, so maybe I'd better mind my tongue....

Now, if I can actually make some progress with Debby next week when I give her a lesson, maybe she'll teach me how to play the banjo. I predict she'll do far better with the computer than I would with the banjo. Actually, what I'd like to do is get her comfortable with the Internet, so maybe she'd spend some time with us here.

She's pretty smart, so I think she'll do well once I get a chance to sit down with her instead of trying to talk her through things on the phone. But a really good interactive tutorial would help.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:39 AM

Joe...some versions of Windows have a sort of 'help' file and/or VERY basic tutorial attached...dunno if that would help any, but mess about in the 'start' menu and see....(does that columnizer program look useful?)

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:46 AM

Haven't checked the "columnizer" yet, Bill. Debby's WordPerfect has a very nice setup for columns, much easier to use than what's in Microsoft Word.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:54 AM

Going by my (and brother Tim's) experiences with Pip for example, some people either can not or will not be taught the way Joe would like to.

My inclination these days is to try for the "logical" approach as it does enable people to solve their own problems rather than get stuck for reasons like "but I've never done that on Excel" when they have done pretty much the same with Word...

These days, I don't loose any sleep if a step by step approach is needed, particularly on a one to one with family - it certainly wasn't worth the rows both Tim and I (independently) ended up having with Pip.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM

You could be right, Jon. I've been Debby's chief-floor-mopper-in-charge at Camp Harmony for five years now. We have very different styles of working, but we work together very well. Maybe that's because when I start work, she leaves and goes dancing.
-Joe Offer-

Guess she'd better learn to use computers, so she can come here and defend herself.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:37 PM

My mind is a little clearer this morning ;-)

I couldn't find the interactive tutorial I once used when learning Windows. Come to think of it - I prefer the one Bill mentioned that you can find at start/help. When students used the interactive one, they often became confused about which clicks were in the tutorial and which ones were in realtime. And like John in Kansas mentioned, Classroom learning is generally much more effective than "do it yourself" with programs, videos, CDs, etc, if only because most of us are conditioned to pay attention when we "go to a class." That's why I emphasized a one-on-one session with a motivated learner. After the beginning stage is over, the learner can use the help menu to do whatever he/she desires.

Joe, both of your students sound like they are past the beginner stage. I think learning how to use the help menu would be helpful at this point...also, how to search online for tutorials for what they want to do...using very specific words and the particular software program they're using.

When I quickly looked at Word to see how to make columns, it appeared to me that you need to use tables. I found that in all my HTML writing the most helpful knowledge for me was an understanding of tables. If Debby wants to pursue this, and if Josh is interested in pursuing more webpage writing, I strongly recommend this online tutorial. http://www.pagetutor.com/pagetutor/tables/index.html

Also Josh might enjoy the javascript fun stuff at www.javaboutique.com (Look for the link to downloads and applets. There are hundreds of really neat things to play around with.) If he has any questions just PM me, I've used many of them and have learned a few tricks along the way. (The main one being that when you have to edit a js file, you need to change the name to txt in order to open it...at least on my setup.) I also found a really neat js calendar which is free and easy to update.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

Mary:

Word has text columns independent of tables. It is implemented using the Format...Columns command or the little columns image on the graphic toolbar. You get to choose how many columns and can do it for a whole or just part of a page. It takes some getting used to, using column breaks to move tot he next one over.



A

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

"when you have to edit a js file, you need to change the name to txt in order to open it"

You can normally use the right click on the .js file and then 'send to' the editor app...

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

I just LOVE it when you guys talk dirty! Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:52 PM

Ah, Amos, that looks easy. Thanks. I wonder what Debby's problem was?

Robin, I still don't follow what you're saying. When I "send to" -- where do I send it? I don't seem to have any options to send to an application...

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:06 PM

Bob, close your ears...

Amos, how would you type input in two columns jumping from one to the other, repeatedly? I've always just used tabs.

I've never really done much word processing, just use the help menu to find out how to do what I need. (I printed some math worksheets using all the neat symbols, but it seemed very labor intensive to someone not familiar with it.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

Mary -

I think the "send to" probably refers to right-clicking on the file in Windows Explorer. On the "window shade" that drops down when you right click the file, you should get choices to "Open" (with the program associated with the file type), "Open With" where you can choose another program, or "Send To" which lets you put a copy somewhere else. With "Drag and Drop," if you "Send to" a program it should open the file in that program (like dragging the file onto the icon for the program).

In this usage, a "Send To" is pretty much the same as an "Open With," but many people got in the habit of using the "Send To" because it was more flexible in older Win versions. You had to put programs in the "Open With" location for them to appear. Newer Win versions add a "choose program" button in "Open With" that let's you "browse" for available programs.

People often use "columns" when they really mean "table." If something in one "column" must be aligned with a specific item in another "column," it's really a "table." Purists may say it's really an "Array," but that's their problem. If you just go back to the top of the page when you get to the bottom, without aligning things, then you're really making columns (like a newspaper).

Tabs work just fine for simple "aligned columns" (tables/arrays). There is also a great deal of flexibility in the tabs you can use, to align on the left, right, or center, on a decimal point, or in newer versions on several other "things." This kind of layout - just to confuse things - is sometimes referred to as a "Tabbed Column" method.

One of the nice things about "tabbed columns" is that they convert fairly easily back and forth with "Tables." If you select a bunch of tabbed columns, and use Table - Convert Text to Table you get a "true" Table, where you can easily put in borders, etc. In the "real" Table layout, you can also swap columns or rows, or insert/delete them. If you need to "re-order" things in Tabbed Columns, just convert to a "Table," do the rearranging, and if desired select the whole table and Table - Convert Table to Text, which will be "Tabbed Columns" again.

An annoyance with converting to and from Tables is that tab spacing isn't restored when you return to text. The trick is, before you convert "Text to Table" you make a blank row in your tabbed format that you don't include in the conversion. (Actually, just the carriage return is sufficient, but it's easier to remember which one you saved if you put the tabs in and have the View Tabs feature turned on) Then when you convert back to text you can highlight the blank row and use the "Format Paint" button to "drag" it's tab settings over the converted stuff.

Learning to move "gracefully" between tabbed columns and tables can be immensely powerful when handling the appropriate kinds of data, (especially when combined with good use of the Find/Replace thing) but I'll admit that the "graceful" part sometimes seems like teaching elephants to dance with tigers. It does get easier with a little use.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 08:56 PM

Send To:.... oops..

I set up my MY PC (in the days of Win 95! - and have just kept it!) to have quite a few extra directories in the 'Send To' folder (the one buried in the WINDOWS directory).

In that I have added links to programs like Eudora (my Mailer), A few text editors, etc, and then some links to directories like 'My Games', 'My Documents' etc, and then a few extra directories (to group together like things - I have so many of them now!) like, 'Sound', 'text', 'Music' 'graphics' 'internet', etc.

I also put a link to the 'Send to' directory in here, so that when a new app installs itself with a desktop link, I can quickly place that link in the 'send to' folder if I want by doing a 'Send to' to the 'Send to' folder.... :-) I later on , during regular maintenance, move these things into appropriate places in this structure - with a right click on 'send to' I can just open a a bit of the sub folder hierarchy and do things faster than the 'normal method' that JiK explained.

I also put a link to the 'Send to' dir on the desktop - it allows me to get to and open some of the afore mentioned programs quickly too...

Oops, I have found this incredibly quick and useful over the years, and forgot that "I'm Special"!!!!!... :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM

Thanks John, if I ever need to do some powerful aligning, I'll look into this. The only time I need it in word processing, I seem to be able to just tab quicker than thinking about it. (oh dear, I sound like those students who replace thinking with typing.;-)) For webpages I just use tables and single pixel gifs.

Back to the .js files. What program could I use to open it in order to edit the text? I must not have one or if I do it's not associated with .js files. My only solution so far it to just quickly change the file name to .txt.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:05 PM

Mary -

The reason for what I explained in my above of 21 Nov 04 - 08:56 is to allow me to do just that. On my machine, HTML files were (and still are) associated with MSIE-- I used to edit the html file by making up an 'open with' in the 'View - folder options - file types' dialogue, but always had to rebuild it after OS crash-reloads.... so came up with the system above. It will work with your .js files (indeed any file extension!) instantly, without having to change the extensions - I used to do this sort of thing at first too, until I implemented this idea.

The BIG advantage is that I can instantly use any editor (I have some that are more useful for some tasks than others - some load very fast but have fewer facilities, etc - sometimes I even use Notepad if I just want to change a couple of characters!) on almost any file type - I even have a Hex-editor which allows me to hack any file including executable files - I grew up computing in the days of CPM/TRS80 where editing executable files, or even disk sectors directly was often the done thing.... having my system set up this way allows me to temporarily associate any file type with any program for the current task at hand...

Another thing is that setting up a file type as an 'open with' default makes registry entries - thus making your registry bigger - this way it's all kept out of the registry, and you can even back up the resultant directory structure to a floppy and carry it with you... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:16 PM

I'll try associating it with MSIE. Somehow I've managed to let several things slip in that department - I can only open jpgs with MSIE. Sometimes MIDI files get hijacked, or some program takes over associations - I hate it when that happens.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:19 AM

Sometimes when I want to lay stuff out ln a table, I prefer to use Excel to Word.

Mary, a .js file should be a text file so something like Notepad should work although as with a abc and other text files, you could have trouble with line endings depending on what the file was made in - you know Win=CR/LF, Mac=LF, *nix=CR. Some text editors cope with them all but I've not used a version of Notepad that does.

Other editors can do and it would probably worth your while searching for another editor for another reason. There are plenty of free and cheap shareware editors around that support syntax highlighting for one or more languages - some of these will support js.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: BanjoRay
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:24 AM

Sorry Joe - I'm the culprit that told Debby to call you. She asked me about Wordpad, which I've never used in my life - ah well, you were obviously the right person to ask!

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:59 PM

Given that this thread probably attracts more knowledgable people I have a thread creep question please.

Over the years I've re-built the software on 'clean' hard drives many times - but I've always struggled with it. I have about 20 PC's to to configure for Sudanese refugee families in Brisbane and my hit and miss methods are too time consuming. I try to buy HP's if I can but in auction job lots I wind up with many different brands.

I don't (generally) have problems with:

- Creating a new DOS partition
- Loading Win 98 or 2000 - try to buy machines that already have an OS licence.
- Loading basic applications such as Open Office suite, Adobe Acrobat and WinZip.
- Finding and loading drivers for monitors and occasionally (if I can get 'em cheap enough) modems.

I get into strife with:

- Configuring the CD-ROM so that I can load applications from CD.
- Do I need to format after I've partitioned?
- What's this R:BANANA drive that get's created in DOS?
- PC's that CAN'T accomodate a floppy drive (not relevant for the moment).
- COMPAQ diagnostic partitioning (not relevant for the moment).

As a few will know I'm now legally blind but I can with a bit of help manage the hardware side of replacing HD's/cards/memory etc that are a bit of a lottery in used PC's.

There are many sites devoted to this topis in very specific ways but I would appreciate recommendations for a comprehensive look at the subject - preferably online.

Regards, John

PS I've never encountered the need to modify the BIOS in these nachines. My current crop of machines vary from 166 to 500 MHz.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:05 PM

Glad you 'fessed up, Ray! The moment I heard Debby say she was using WordPad, I moved her over to WordPerfect. She caught on to columns in about five minutes, and typed up a sing-along song sheet for her concert.
The concert Saturday was wonderful - Debby, her sister and brother, two nephews, Dick & Carol Holdstock, Patience I-should-know-her-name, and a couple of other musicians - at Debby's annual fundraiser concert for the community center next to her home in the Gold Rush town of Dutch Flat, California. Each musician did two songs, with a lot of singing along from the audience. A wonderful old-time music gathering in a wonderful old wooden schoolhouse.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:20 AM

John the Windows CDs should be bootable. Go into BIOS and see if you can put the CD in the boot sequence. Not all BIOS's support this so you may need to use a floppy.

I've never seen R:/Banana but when I have needed to enable a CD ROM, I have used my own CD and I do things a bit differently. I searched on Google have read conflicting reports as to whether banana works and realy is a driver or whether it is a dummy to be changed. If it does work and you can change to drive R:, that will be your CD ROM drive.

I should explain that if you were just to load Win 98 from a floppy, there would be no CD support. A program called MSCDEX needs to be run to enable this. Full details on MSCDEX can be found here. To use this program which would normally be ran from autoexec.bat, you also need a line in config.sys to specify the CD driver to use.

My own start up files are very crude and simple but have worked on all systems I have tried.

Config.sys:
LASTDRIVE=Z
BUFFERS=20
DEVICE=\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=\MTMCDAI.SYS /D:MSCD000

AutoExec.bat:
\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD000

In this case, mscdex normally will set the CD to drive D:. himem.sys and mtcdai.sys are and mscdex are on the floppy. I'm not sure where I got mtmcdai.sys from but it seems to work as a good generic device. Some CD drivers will require a different .sys file - I've just been lucky and not needed one.

An alternative and perhaps better solution would be to go to bootdisk.com and download and create boot floppies from there. I've not used these but they look rather more comprehensive than my crude boot floppy.

Hope that helps a bit.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:27 AM

"when I have needed to enable a CD ROM, I have used my own CD"

Sould of course read "when I have needed to enable a CD ROM, I have used my own floppy".

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:23 AM

Jon, thanks heaps, particularly for the autoexec and config.sys scripts. This afternoon I did in fact re-educate myself as to a reasonably simple process.

The key factor is a bootable DOS Setup Disc which I downloaded from (I think) bootdisk.com. A few months ago I downloaded at least a dozen boot discs in a variety of formats and completely confused myself.

My process in now simple enough:

- Boot with the DOS Setup Disc
- Run SCANDISK and FORMAT from the A: drive
- Re-boot and the dialogue tells me that a (temporary) R: drive has been created (MSCDEX has been installed with generic drivers).
- Change Directory to R: and run Win98 SETUP.EXE from CD. During the course of installation Windows changes the R: Directory to a more conventional name such as D:.

I did note that I couldn't instal Win 2000 from the R: prompt (in DOS), but I suspect that if I had booted with CD-ROM as default then it would have booted quite happily.

My rudimentary installation outline above is probably not fool-proof (particularly for non-Atapi cd drives), but I've never found a Web site that covers this subject all the way.

When all else fails I can use your scripts, thank you.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:24 AM

John in Brisbane -

It's been so long since I've had to partition a drive that I went to my old DOS books to look. My Peter Norton's Supercharging Win98 was very little help, except for telling me that "now you can get hard drives up to a whopping 3 GB." Maybe they're getting a little too old.

The short answer to your second "trouble" is YES, you do need to Format each of the partitions that you create using FDISK in DOS.

Assuming that you're using a Win98 version of DOS, FDISK should ask if you want "large file support" for any hard drives over 512 MB. If you say yes, you'll get a FAT32 file system, and can use single partitions up to 2TB. If you say no, you get FAT partitions, with a 2 GB limit on each partition. Win98 can use FAT32 quite nicely, but some old programs may balk at it, although there really shouldn't be many of those programs left around.

With Win98, of course you need to break large drives into 2GB partitions before you install the system, if you want the 16-bit FAT for some reason. For reasonable drive sizes, if you use FAT32 one partition per drive is fine, although you might slice one 2GB FAT partition off for old programs - or to trade stuff with others who can't read FAT32 if it's a concern.

You mentioned Win2000 also. FDISK does not exist on Win2K or WinXP, at least for command line use with Windows running. It may be loaded on the startup disks just in case you have a "new" drive to set up, but most new drives are pre-formatted, and any normal partitioning is done in Win2K in Control Panel after the sytem is up. If the whole drive is "readable" Win2K should take care of partitioning, file system conversions, and any format cleanup, so you can add or remove partitions there after the OS is up. (Same for WinXP.)

For a summary of DOS FDISK and FORMAT you can look at: How to Use the Fdisk Tool and the Format Tool to Partition or Repartition a Hard Disk
Article ID : 255867

Windows 98 Fat32ebd.txt File Q186892 has some info on the "Emergency Boot Disk" and the regular "Win98 Startup Disk" with a sample of Config.sys and Autoexec.bat files Microsoft suggests for Win98. Might be helpful in setting up a consistent set of setup tools, although it's not much different than has been suggested above.

For basic limits on partition sizes vs DOS versions, the last paragraph here might be handy for anything up through Win98:

MS-DOS Partitioning Summary Article ID : 69912

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:52 PM

Thanks John, I've (quickly) gone through your references and the 'Emergency Win 98 Boot Disc' has some promise.

Generally I can muddle through to create partitions and format the drive, but getting to the point where the system recognises that a CD-ROM exists is very problematic.

Having written last night that I thought I had a smooth process in place, I started out on a HP Celeron 350 Meg (ish) machine which refused to open my 'stsndard' DOS Setup Disc. I ended up using a FreeDos Image disc to get the CD-ROM working only to find that Win98 didn't take kindly to FreeDOS, BUT Win 2000 would at least self boot. After 3 hours of tedium I got to bed at 1:00 am in a slightly grumpy mood, but at least I'd configured one more PC

As an Irish friend once told me - referring to the Irish people - "They can take away our happiness, but they can't take away our misery".

Joyfully,
John

PS There are probably lots of others but I've found that BELARC ADVISOR is a nifty piece of Windows Freeware to provide a very comprehensive stocktake of all your installed hardware and software. I've no idea where I found it but suspect that it's an easy Google task.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need a Computer Tutorial
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:20 PM

John (in Brisbane), perhaps you first found Belarc Advisor the same way as I did - in search of PC memory. Crucial have a link to it. Here is a link for Belarc.

Jon