Going vegi

Subject: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:16 PM

I don't wish to reherse the arguments for veginess but which would be more effective:

1. Half the omnivores going vegi
or
2. All the omnivores eating 50% less meat?

And why?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

Statistically difficult that one.
If the ones who are on the Atkins diet ate half as much meat, they might equal one "standard" omnivore.
OR
If the "barbie" crowd with pounds of charcoaled meat kept eating it, and the people who like a couple of sausages with their mash gave up the bangers, it wouldn't produce much of a result.
Quack!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Bert
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:26 PM

With the price of meat doubling during the first four years of Bushbaby's regime, we'll soon have option 2 here whether we like it or not.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:03 PM

Effective for what? What are you wanting to accomplish?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:10 PM

Thank you, Carol...

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:09 PM

The extra methane would probably wipe out the rest of the ozone layer or up the greenhouse effect to the point where we all fry.....(or was it drown?)
Quack!!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:13 PM

If that happens, it will result in the death of billions of vegetables.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:42 PM

I agree with the people asking "please define 'effective'."

If it means effective in reducing the amount of meat eaten, I'd guess #2. Half of all omnivores may swear off meat, but I doubt they'd last too long. Cutting back is easier.

Once, when I was young, I decided to become a vegetarian...a week before Thanksgiving. Talk about self-sabotage!

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Gypsy
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:40 PM

Well, i was vegetarian for years, and went back to meat for health reasons. That said...........the rule of thumb is: an acre of land, planted with assorted vegetables, will sustain a family of 4 for a year. The same acre, with livestock on it, will support the same family for 6 months or less. It is a matter of space...as we run out of it, meat will become more and more of a luxury. Oh yeah, i may be on Atkins, but i eat about 6-8 ounces of meat a day. not much of an overload

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:48 AM

......... the rule of thumb is: an acre of land, planted with assorted vegetables, will sustain a family of 4 for a year. The same acre, with livestock on it, will support the same family for 6 months or less.

I guess this lies at the heart of my question. Converting plant protein into animal protein is a luxory for lots of people, it's a waste of protein and leads to massive habitat destruction. If we do not limit meat eating we will have many less animals.

Convincing most people to give up meat altogether is very difficult.

I suppose I am also irritated by people who in a social situation will be quite verbal about not eating food with the smallest bits of animal in it. I know I have no right to be irritated by this or by any other food taboo.

To re-state my original question:
In terms of cruelty to animals and habitat destruction wouldn't 2 people eating half as much meat be as effective as one giving up altogether?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:13 AM

The last two posters don't know much about farming, especially organic farming which is the best and most sustainable kind. One piece of land can grow both plants and animals, because they are rotated. The food units 'wasted' by the animal are not wasted at all -they are returned to the land to increase its fertility for the next vegetable crop. The rotation means that both animal and vegetable pests fail to complete their life-cycles and do not become significant problems, avoiding the need for pesticides. The wonderful US organic farmer and poet Wendell Berry said that people who wish to divorce the animal and plant kingdoms, (as both chemical farmers and vegetarians wish), take a solution and split it down the middle to make two problems.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:27 AM

Organic shmorganic, putting plant proteins into animals is never going to be a protein efficient thing to do.

Most of the food going into beasts is used keeping them warm and moving them about. Better eat cerial directly!

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:49 AM

i think people are naturally omnivorous, while there's a take away food shop there'll always be a cheap meat dish. i dont think vegetarianism is the solution to the planet's food problems, any solution will be political and economic.

(i have been vegetarian for over thirty years through personal choice. )

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:13 AM

Our teeth do suggest we have been omnivorous for as long as we have been people and much longer before that. Rich people eat more meat and some porr people don't eat any.

The economic and ecological effects of rich people using poor countries to get more meat are indefensible.

Les meat means greater equality and more habitats.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:54 AM

No it doesn't. Many vegetarians rely on high-protein foods such as soya-beans etc that grow in warm climates. The environmental and social damage of poor peoples growing them as a cash crops to sell to rich countries, and the environmental costs of getting them to temperate countries are astronomical. Much better from a social justice and environmental standpoint to eat a chop from a sheep that has had a happy life and painless death somewhere local.

Les, I don't find your visions of farms consisting of cereal crops inspiring or sustainable. Have you seen a wheat prarie? If you have seen a well-run organic farm (lots in the Welsh borders) you would realise that they are they way to go - happy animals and healthy crops burgeoning on their manure, a healthy symbiosis which is as close as possible to natural systems.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:02 AM

I don't think we are on opposite sides here. Isn't most of the wheat fed to cattle?

If we eat more wheat and less cows more natural habitats could be sustained?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:43 PM

Some people need meat more than others. I've been a veggie since I was 15 (33 years), and I don't have any desire whatever to eat meat. I don't even think of it as food. Not any more than I would think of paper or shoe leather as food. And because of allergies and food sensitivities, I have had to stop eating any animal protein even in the form of eggs and dairy products. While I love eggs and dairy products, and I miss the taste of them, I never crave them. But I know people whose bodies require animal protien, and if they don't have it regularly, they suffer greatly.

I don't know what the answer is to your question, but I think there will always be a percentage of people who prefer to not eat meat, and there will probably always be a percentage of people who must eat meat. But I agree with those who believe that the best way to provide food for people is to do it the organic way.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

OK Les, I think we ARE on the same side - both opposed to cruel factory farming, ripping off poor countries and monocultural industrial farming. My point is that if you eat locally-grown, organically-raised, humanely slaughtered meat you are doing a good deed, and not endangering any habitats - quite the opposite since as I've explained organic farming doesn't use pesticides which go into the environment. If all vegetarians/vegans began to eat this kind of meat it would do an awful lot of good - the practise of intensive beef lots, force-grown on monocultures of wheat and barley, which we both oppose, would take a nasty knock. As it is vegetarians have in a sense 'dealt themselves out of the game', because they can no longer use their consumer clout as meat consumers to promote sustainable and ethical treatment of animals. The number of people who are vegetarians is not big enough to alter the status quo re. meat production, but it could give the burgeoning organic movement a huge boost.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:18 PM

Ok, I have to respond later becauase Im really tryed and have tased the best of France and australia

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

What do you mean omnivores? As far as I can see humans who eat meat are carrion eaters. They don't like flesh still bloody and kicking, they have to wait for it to rot a bit. As for teeth, if you've got omnivores teeth, I'd give them back. Humans have frugivorous teeth like gorillas and orang utans.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 02:50 AM

OK Guest, emotionally speakng , one person's meat is .......
...... perhaps you can answer my original question directly:

In terms if habitat sustainibility, which would you prefer; half of us to become vegi or all of us to eat half or even a quarter as much meat?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 04:34 AM

Look if god didn't want us to eat animals why did he make them taste so good ?

eric

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 04:40 AM

It's a great line that one,

If god didn't want us to ........ then why did he .........

Perhaps it deserves a thread of its own

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Gypsy
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

The last two posters don't know much about farming........find that pretty ironic.....guess what i do for a living!

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:11 AM

Give us a clue.

eric

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:39 AM

Where I live the land is naff-all use for anything except sheep. I'd like to some anyone trying to grow high-protein arable crops out here in West Wales.
Ooh-Ah2's got it right - a sutainable organic holding with both arable and animal interests is my ideal. The veg toppings and the like go to the pigs, and their shit goes to help the veg grow. Then we eat both the pigs and the veg.
I can respect the views of a vegan who has nothing to do with animal products of any kind - including wool, leather, eggs and milk - but any other form of vegetarianism is nothing more than a daft fad IMHO. As they pontificate in their leather shoes and woollen clothes, drinking their milky drinks, they're just as much a part of the 'exploitation' of animals as the person eating a burger.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:49 AM

And what sort of vegetable is a fish or an egg ?

Most vegetarians I know are hippocrites.

eric

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:09 AM

I personally know a couple of vegetarians who are members of this forum, and they don't eat, wear, sit on or otherwise utilise anything that involves the death of an animal, bird, fish or other such creature.

I'm a rabid carnivore, but I admire them for having the balls to abide by their principles.

Not all veggies are hypocrites! (Although the very pompous one I once caught eating MY cold sausages almost got a punch in the eye for her bloody hypocrisy!).

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: moocowpoo
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM

Organic meat farming, I agree that it provides a more humane life for the stock, and is a much more sustainable farming approach. However, some people do not like the thought of killing an animal to satisfy their hunger.    I don't like the thought of vegetarianism as a fad, but I don't feel compelled to judge the fad participants harshly, nor am I Interested in judging the choices of a meat eater. I've 'dealt myself out of the game' because I'm not at all keen to participate in the game. Vegetarians are a pretty varied bunch, you can't categorise a person based on their nutritrient-consumption choices, Vegetarians are not all, finger-pointing hypocrytes. Although, I have seen examples of this stereotype (and, can understand the repulsion), I really don't consider the average meat eater to be a drift-netting, bear-trapping, gun happy......hard line vegetarian's, stereotypical opposite.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:27 PM

but any other form of vegetarianism is nothing more than a daft fad IMHO. As they pontificate in their leather shoes and woollen clothes, drinking their milky drinks, they're just as much a part of the 'exploitation' of animals as the person eating a burger.

I agree with you (to an extent) in the case of people who are vegetarians because of the issue of "exploitation of animals", or similar reasons for going veggie.

In my case, I just don't happen to like eating meat. I don't enjoy it. Tell you what, Gervase... you can have my share of meat, and then you can leave me alone to enjoy eating what I enjoy eating (ie: not meat). Ok?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:16 PM

Find your ecological footprint here

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: open mike
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM

OVO LACTO vegetarian...those who do eat eggs and dairy product.
Many folks use this diet, and there is no need to call us hypocrits.
There is a world of difference between using anumal by-products
such as honey, eggs, milk, wool, those which DO NOT cause the DEATH
of a critter, and those that DO. VEGANS choose not to use by-products.
I also eat fish and sea food, but no red meat, mammals, or fowl.
NOthing with big brown eyes that blinks at you.
Many Many thousands of acres in this country is planted in corn and soy which are fed directly to animals...true, though, that not all land is suited for such fields, and some is only avaialble for grazing land. It
seems there would not be a food shortage anywhere if all these acres were producing food for humans. I once heard that it takes 10 acres to produce enough meat to equal the food value in one acre of veggies. YOU can not get b vitamins from veggies though and must supplement.
wool is a wonderful fiber, and actully feels good to the sheep to get that heavy coat off in the hot months, no doubt!

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: treewind
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

"Most vegetarians I know are hippocrites."

I wish people would stop thinking vegetarianism is like some sort of religious prohibition and you're damned for eternity if you lapse once.

I'm vegetarian but I eat fish, cheese and and eggs - and I'm not bothered about leather shoes etc. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, nor does it mean I'm not a "proper vegetarian" either (who's making the rules...?) It's a personal preference. I eat what I like (within practical limits) just like anyone else.

I agree with Les that reducing meat in one's diet would probably be a good thing - historically it's always been a bit of a luxury and it's not a staple in many cultures even now.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:41 PM

So wool, eggs and milk don't end up with dead animals? Where are the graveyards for the sheep, hens and cows that die of old age?
CarolC - point taken!

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:14 PM

I suspected it was a futile hope that we could avoid the extreme positions. I don't suppose those people think they are and maybe they are not.

We don't need to 'save the planet'. The planet will survive, but animals will be much less common. This will be very, very bad.

If HIV could be spread by biting insects the population of people would drop a lot and maybe that will happen.

In terms if habitat sustainibility, which would you prefer; half of us to become vegi or all of us to eat a quarter as much meat?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:17 PM

You'll find those graves alongside those of the millions of animals which were slaughtered in case they caught foot and mouth disease and reduced the profit margins.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

In terms if habitat sustainibility, which would you prefer; half of us to become vegi or all of us to eat a quarter as much meat?

Do you mean to suggest with this question that with the second option, those who already don't eat meat should have to start eating meat? Or does "eat a quarter as much meat" mean that for those who don't eat meat, they would eat a quarter of what they currently eat, wich is no meat?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:31 PM

my rule is i dont eat anything which has eyes and can look at me. so eggs.. well, do you wanna overturn Roe vs Wade or whatever it is, for chooks? will all the eggs of the world unite to become liberated? or will they just be one big omelette?


(thinks) time for breggfast.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:34 PM

i guess its time to ponder:

does an egg have a soul?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:42 PM

The argument that without eating animals, we'd choke with extra methane gas or that the extra animal population would eat up all the grain, grass and veggies is a fallacy. Livestock in commercial farms are bred far more than they would naturally on their own. A cow left to its own in a herd, would typically have an average of 3 calves in its life. A cow in a factory farm can have more than 10 times that. In many cases they're being artificially inseminated the same day that they give birth to one calf meaning they spend their entire adult lives pregnant.

The ratio I've been given is that it takes 16 vegetarian meals' worth of grain, soybeans and water to produce one meal for a meat-based diet.


Rich

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Gypsy
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:44 PM

That's right. We've been farming for about 25 years, my husband has been doing it since childhood. I LIKE my meat, can butcher it out, and tan the wrapping to make you a pair of shoes. But i DO agree that this is a luxury, and as we get more and more populated, people will have to go more and more veg. It is just a matter of using space wisely.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM

Sorry Sooz, lost me there...

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: MMario
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:51 AM

Most commercial eggs are unfertilized.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:04 AM

You will note that I said " most vegetarians I KNOW are hyppocrites "

If I have a vegetarian friend round for a meal, there is no way I would serve them a big rare steak, but they won't do me the same courtesy, if you go to a vegetarians house for a meal they will only serve you vegetables.

I once chastised a vegetarian in the pub for killing a wasp, I'm a carnivore but I NEVER kill anything I am not going to eat.

eric

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:30 AM

I hope you never get mice in your house eric, you'd have to eat them!

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: moocowpoo
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:16 AM

"If I have a vegetarian friend round for a meal, there is no way I would serve them a big rare steak, but they won't do me the same courtesy, if you go to a vegetarians house for a meal they will only serve you vegetables."


Every carnivore I know still eats veges as well. vegetarians have made the decision NOT to eat meat for some reason or another..
If a meateater I know was one who had some sort of ojection to ALL vegetables, and they came to dinner, well I would serve them meat, but this is a pretty unlikely scenario.    A more likelt scenario is that a person will not like a certain vegetable, OF COURSE I would not serve them that particular food, simply because they have made an objection to it
The abriged difference: vegetarians Object to eating meat
                        meateaters do not object to eating veges

moo

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:56 AM

Strollin' Johnny said - I personally know a couple of vegetarians who are members of this forum, and they don't eat, wear, sit on or otherwise utilise anything that involves the death of an animal, bird, fish or other such creature.

Most furniture up until fairly recently was put together with animal glue ditto musical instuments. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: GUEST,Sooz (at work)
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:15 AM

If there is ever a buffet with a vegetarian section, this is always the first to go. In my experience the meat eaters go for it first and some have told me that it is because it looks more interesting!

Davetnova - you are correct about glue etc. There are so many hidden problems, cosmetics are a minefield but it is usually possible to find out information from manufacturers. If there is a doubt the we avoid the product or the make.

It isn't so difficult to have ethics!

I'm off to give blood now - does that offend anyone?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:38 AM

Rich funny Gaelic name...that, if you'll pardon me saying so, is a load of Bullshit. If a cow were insemintated on the day she calved, she would not become pregnant anyway. Do you think they are fertile ALL the time??? There is a 24 hour period once every three weeks when a cow can get in calf and even an insemination given the first time she comes into season after calving (which is often not for several weeks) is unlikely to 'hold'. Any female mammal's body has to be in the right state to conceive and immediately after giving birth is certainly not the time! It takes a while for the body to get itself into fertile condition again after birth.

Love Lynne (ex artificial inseminator)

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM

Ok, some of you have bitten pieces of each other but I ask the veggies to answer the question:

In terms if habitat sustainibility, which would you prefer; half of us omnivores to become vegi or all of us omnivores to eat a quarter as much meat?

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Sooz
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:01 PM

Les, it would be more practical for all omnivores to eat less meat (everyone in the west eats much more than they need simply because they can afford to) and more veg. There would be a lot of health benefits as well as environmental ones.

If huge numbers of people turned veggie, the there could be sustainability problems as protein rich legume crops do not grow well in cooler climates (and sheep and cows do).

I'll stick to the luxury of my veggie diet though, if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:19 PM

If we all stop eating meat, what do you think would happen to all the pigs, non-dairy cattle and other stock bred purely for their meat?

You wouldn't say many of them on farms, for sure - a farm is a business, just like any other, and has to make a profit.

Twenty years ago, when I worked on dairy farms in Northamptonshire, I passed three herds at least on my way from home to work - perhaps two miles. There are now ten herds in the whole county. What has happened to the livestock - they haven't just merged!

This may seem like a half-arsed argument for keeping on eating meat, but the point is that without meat eaters amny varieties of these animals would now be extinct.

epn

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:34 AM

Yo jOhn, my cat Stan is not a vegetarian either, it's his job to deal with mice. My pet spiders deal with insects etc.

eric

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

You say it all for me Sooz.

Much of western Europe is grain desert to feed cattle. Eat the grain (+ other stuff and some meat) and support the growth of wilderness and its associated diversity...... bring back the Boar et al.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:35 PM

if you go to a vegetarians house for a meal they will only serve you vegetables

This is not necessarily a bad thing. If you came to my house for a meal and I served you some meat, it might kill you. I stopped eating meat before I learned how to cook. I don't even know how to buy meat, much less cook it.

I ask the veggies to answer the question:

In terms if habitat sustainibility, which would you prefer; half of us omnivores to become vegi or all of us omnivores to eat a quarter as much meat?

I don't think it's up to me to decide what others eat, but it would seem to make more sense for many people to eat less meat than for half of the meat eaters to be forced to stop eating meat altogether.

This may seem like a half-arsed argument for keeping on eating meat, but the point is that without meat eaters amny varieties of these animals would now be extinct.

These animals wouldn't exist in their current form had they not been bred for the purpose of meat production. I don't see why their going extinct would have any discernable negative impact on the ecology of the world.

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM

And to repeat something that was said months ago on another thread....

The Atkins diet is not made up entirely of meat. If you skip the 2 week induction, there is a high proportion of vegetable matter.... much higher than many folk eat that think they are on a 'balanced' diet.

The Atkins diet was NOT written by someone with a vested interest in meat production. It was written by someone with a vested interest in keeping his patients out of the morgue.

LTS

Subject: RE: Going vegi
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:29 PM

'In terms if habitat sustainibility, which would you prefer; half of us omnivores to become vegi or all of us omnivores to eat a quarter as much meat?

I don't think it's up to me to decide what others eat, but it would seem to make more sense for many people to eat less meat than for half of the meat eaters to be forced to stop eating meat altogether.'

Thanks Carol lets do more of that and sing a few songs, play a few tunes and step them old dances in a more sustainable world.

Oh god I sound like a vicar. (What does vicarious really mean?)