BS: Home run hitters

Subject: BS: Home run hitters
From: Louie Roy
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 10:18 PM

Just imagine what the home run record would be if Babe Ruth and Hank Arron had used steriods.Louie Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 10:25 PM

Who says they didn't?

Awww, jus' funnin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 10:31 PM

The use/abuse in sports of "performance enhancing supplements" in the United States of America is documented back to the 1880's, and perhaps, before.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 11:15 PM

"ust imagine what the home run record would be if Babe Ruth and Hank Arron had used steriods."

why, it might be...oh...70 or so

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: van lingle
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 01:37 PM

I remember seeing an old coke adverstisement with an endorsment from Ty Cobb back in an era when coke still contained cocaine at least in trace amounts. Cobb professed to always keeping a couple of bottles of the stuff on the bench to get him through those long double-headers (I think it went something like that). His single season and career stolen base records stood for a good long time and his career .367 batting average will probably never be surpassed. Hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:30 PM

Baseball Almanac : The Official Baseball History Site

Google that. Neat stuff there.

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:04 PM

Was that ex-Dodger Van Lingle Mungo?

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: GUEST,chinmusic
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:33 PM

There was a great article written by Tom Boswell, of the Washington Post, that appeared in the Toronto Star today on this very subject. Mr. Boswell is among the top baseball scribes in America, and I agree with his thoughts about the use steroids in the game today.

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: van lingle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:16 AM

No PoppaGator. I'm no relation to the fastball pitcher (and highball drinker). I'm more of a Van Lingle Fungo as I was a bench jockey who saw most of his action shagging flies (using the archaic definition of the word there).
Re the babes's homerun total not only did he not have the benefit of steroids (apparently he trained on hot dogs, pigsfeet and copious amounts of beer) he gained his before the talent pool was diluted by expansion and the rise of other proffesional sports. He also played in an era when the baseball wasn't often lily white and they played a 154 game schedule instead of the current 162. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:31 PM

Forget the steroids. Just imagaine how many home runs they could have hit if they had todays ball to swing at!

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: musicmick
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:09 PM

I am sick and tired of hearing that professional baseball has been watered down by expansion and a longer season. I contend that any records before 1948 are invalid as they were set in an era that excluded at least half the qualified players from competition (which means that half the players in all-white baseball were, at best, minor leaguers. The question is not how Babe Ruth would have done with steroids. It is how he would have done facing Satchel Paige, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal and Fergie Jenkins. I'm pretty damn sure that Walter Johnson and Cy Young might have had a little trouble retiring Mays, Aaron, Reggie, Barry and A-Rod.
Meanwhile, back at the streroid corral, I seem to remember a book by Jim Bouton ("Ball Four") that was written some forty years ago. In it, the author related stories of clubhouse attendants passing out what he called "greenies" to the hot little hands of his Yankee teammates. I also remember that one of the Green Bay Packers told similar stories about the lax drug policies in the NFL at that time.
Athletes have been beefing up since the establishment of betting lines. There is not a major college football school that doesn't have its share of pituitary props. Where, pray tell, did you think those behemoths come from? And don't tell me that this is about the health and welfare of the athletes. Nobody gives a damn if they drink or smoke because drinking and smoking don't affect gambling on the games.
If Barry Bonds were nicer to the sports writers, this would be a minor story. They just hate his cocky, sassy, black ass and the thought of him being the best player ever is just more than they can handle. Personally. I think this is their payback for Pete Rose.

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:15 AM

If Ted Williams hadn't gone into the military in WW2, he would have been the greatest home run hitter of all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: van lingle
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:15 AM

That's debatable, Kendall, but he sured would have added significantly to his 521(?) total. He lost time as an aviator in Korea as well. I think he lost about 4 and a half seasons during his prime due to military service.
Yeah, musicmic, not considering segregation was a major omission on my part but considering the much larger percentage of whites in the population and that organised football and basketball weren't grabbing such a large share of the athletes aspiring to a proffesional career, I think the argument has some merit. That said, ommiting players from participating due their skin color was probably MLB's alltime low. vl

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: musicmick
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:16 PM

Yes, Kendall, I agree. Ted Williams was the best white hitter. But his numbers pale in comparison to Josh Gibson's.
Van Lingle, good sir, here are some stats to consider if you ever want to rationalize the batting records before 1948. Since integration, virtually all the great hitters have been black. If you check out those who played from 1948, you will find that the top home run hitters are mostly black (Aaron, Bonds, Mays, Frank Robinson, Stargell, McCovey, Griffy, Sosa are just a few who come to mind. Great, white sluggers are fewer and farther between, Mantle, Schmidt, Mathews, Killebrew are all I can think of off hand).
The top base stealers since 1948 are even more pigmented (Henderson,Wills,Brock, my god, were there any whites at all in their class?) Whites do a little better in batting average but it's tough to ignore Gwynne,Bonds,Mays,Oliva, Oliver and the whole Alou family.
My point is that black players have outperformed whites when they have had the chance to compete. They are, at least, as good as whites and it makes sense to assume that they were as good or better than whites before 1948, too. I maintain that the Hall of Fame should separate the stats from pre-1948 and post-1948. They already do that with pre and post-1900. It is the only way that MLB can honor its past heros and admit its past sins.

                   Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:47 PM

More to the point, how many actually CARE? Not me....fer shure

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: van lingle
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 12:37 AM

Well you should care, Sorcha. Baseball stats are what most of us males are thinking about during intimate moments with the fairer sex in order to prolong the process :>) vl

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: musicmick
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 01:26 AM

Yes, and when we grow too old to process, those stats provide diversion and distraction.

             Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 03:15 AM

Oh, Mike. 1967's Triple crown winner, Carl Yasztrzemski of my beloved Red Sox was another white slugger.
As a Sox fan, I have to admit that I'm somewhat ashamed that they were the last team to integrate - in 1960 when Elijah "Pumpsie" Green joined them.

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: musicmick
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 07:25 PM

Yes, Seamus, and Pumpsie wasn't much of a player at that. I had forgotten Yaz, who was, perhaps the least super of the super stars. I seem to remember that he won the batting crown, one year, with an embarassingly low number. But he was the pride of eastern long Island and how many players can claim that? In fact, I left out quite a few fine white players like Al Kaline, Rocky Colavito and Dave " King Kong" Kingman. (OK, Kingman is a bit of a stretch). My point was that a very high percentage of great players since integration would have been ineligable before. And, with that in mind, how can we assume that Josh Gibson wasn't a better hitter than Babe Ruth. It seems quite likely that he must have been. I'm not trying to belittle the Bambino. I'm only saying that Barry Bonds is not going to break Hank Aaron's home run record because Aaron never held the record. It was set by Josh Gibson and it would take Bonds another few years to top it. By the way, my hometown team's racial history is no better than yours. The Phillies took forever to break their line and chose, as their pioneer, the vastly forgetable John Kennedy. At least, the A's first player of color was a brilliant fielding firstbaseman, Vic Power. Connie Mack was a bigot of the old school who, in his fifty year tenure, had a total of no black players and one Jew (Lou Limmer).

         Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: GUEST,chinmusic
Date: 18 Dec 04 - 05:47 PM

Hey, Van Lingle, that was a great line about what we males think of to prolong the sex act. It reminded of a bedroom scene from a Woody Allen flick(maybe Annie Hall) in which the woman asks him, why he yelled out 'slide' during climax. Personally, I think of former Angel, Steve Bilko, trying to leg out a bunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 04 - 05:54 PM

What's a home run?

Seriously!

DfG

Subject: RE: BS: Home run hitters
From: van lingle
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 08:46 AM

Dave, the home run occurs when a batter hits a fair ball and is able to touch all four bases as a result of that hit without being tagged out, resulting in a run being scored. The most common type occurs when a batter hits a ball over the fence in fair territory and is able to traverse the bases unmolested. More rare and more exciting, IMO, is the inside the park homer where the struck ball stays in the park and the batter must round all four bases before being tagged out with the baseball by the opposition. You can no doubt find a more official definition at the Major League Baseball site.

Music Mic, I have no problem not assuming that the great Josh Gibson was a better hitter than Ruth. Gibson was said to have hit around 800 dingers in 200 game seasons in the Negro Leagues. The Sultan of Swat hit 714 in 154 game seasons and carried a lifetime .342 average, if I'm not mistaken. Consider that Ruth spent the first four years or so of his career in the dead ball era and as a pitcher (judging from his stats he would have been a hall of fame pitcher, barring injury) and consequently had a very low homer output during that time. He was a fine fielder and had a great arm in the outfield (they say he never threw to the wrong base) when he was younger. I think it's difficult to assume that blacks and hispanics are better baseball players than whites when you consider socio-economic conditions for the various groups. Sadly, it seems there are far more career opportunities open to whites than to minorities and a chancy effort at seeking a career in proffesional sports is probably not nearly as enticing to them. I'm not sure this was the case during the 20's and 30's, Gibson's and Ruth's, hey day. When I consider this and the far greater percentage of whites in the population during that time I've got to think that MLB played a faster brand of ball than the Negro Leagues. For the record, I'm not a white supremacist and have a great deal of respect and awe for the talents of the great players of the Negro Leagues and I am not making love to my wife as I type this. Happy Holidays,vl