good ideas about sharp knives

Subject: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:53 AM

Now I admit I'm not a cook, or chef and I have no training in the correct way to slice stuff, but a few years back - I thought I'd like a nice sharp knife to slice onions and stuff like that.

So complete schmuck that I am, I saw the Titanium knife set demonstration on the shopping channel and I asked for that for Xmas - convinced my problems would be over.


Call it defective technique or what you will, but imagine my surprise when the cleaver and the big knife all bounced off the onions - I could do it with the serrated bread knife. But hell I had a bread knife already.

So the titanium whatsits went into the drawer in disgrace, and not being a man to let the grass grow under my feet, a mere two or three years later, I took myself down to the cooking implements shop and bought a knife marked OXO Good grip. Now this is a good knife, and will cut most things - however it was £30 or so.

has anyone found a cheaper way to do it.   I wouldn't mind a couple of of other sharp knives now that I've got one that works. Its a nice thing to have.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:54 AM

sorry this should be in non music.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:00 AM

Go down the Pound Shop, where everything cost £1. Plenty of good knives there.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:01 AM

I fought that knife business for years and finally my three kids got together and bought me a set of Henckel pros series knives. They are brilliant and although the require sharpening from time to time I have this automatic electric hone that puts an edge on them in a few seconds. When they are sharp there is nothing...wait, change that...there are not many things that are better. My daughter is a chef and she prefers Wustof knives.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Toenails John
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:05 AM

Perfect use for defunct knives.
Give it to a Bodhran player to play his instrument with
(sorry couldn't resist)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:51 AM

A knife that "never needs sharpening" is generally JUNK. While it will perhaps hold whatever edge it comes with for a while, an excessively "hard" edge is very difficult to re-sharpen. Unless the very best (expensive) steel is used, the "superhard" steels also have a tendency to "intergranular brittleness" that compounds the difficulty of sharpening. You might want a hard edge in a jungle survival knife, it you have to KILL your meat with your bare hands, but they're generally not the best for household use.

Wusthof, Henckel, and Trident are all very good knives, and are a real pleasure to use, assuming one has evolved to the "tool using stage." In addition to being good quality, and usable, they are also "sexy" in that "industrial grade" sense.

Somewhat cheaper, and of fairly equal utility, Chicago Cutlery or Kansas City Cutlery are very good quality, and are what most of the "professional meat cutters" I know tend to use around my area. One factor here is that both of these makers typically give very good discounts to "professional cutters" so they get a pretty good deal. If you flatter him/her on the "exquisite touch" on a nice set of chops, you might be able to persuade the "meat guy" at your market to pick up a piece (knife) or two and pass on the discount. Even at "store prices" these are not terribly expensive - although both have "deluxe" lines that can run into the "german" brand ranges. The "standard grade" Chicago and KC knives generally have wooden handles, which in my opinion are actually a little more "hand fitting" than the "modern" substitutes, but that is a matter of preference.

Most "department store" knives run to something like the "Flint" brand - just an example, there are MANY just as bad. These have a very hard, and usually brittle, edge. I've owned many, mainly as "gifts," and have never seen a "Flint" knife that was suitable for any use except as a screwdriver or perhaps a paint scraper. (I do use one for a letter opener, but I had to drastically rework it even for that.)

You may also occasionally see really cheap (a relative term) knives advertised as "genuine carbon steel" - i.e. not corrosion resistant. These sometimes can be given a "passable" edge, but will rust. The main objection is that the "free iron" (rust) that comes off them in the dishwasher can "break" the passivation on your good stainless cookware and cause it to rust. I keep these out of my kitchen entirely.

Sort of a "novelty act," but cheap and fairly usable is a brand called "Chuppa" that features cast-on aluminum handles. They advertise, but they lie, that they're "the sharpest knives you can buy." That's not true, but if you clean the edge "just a little" they do hold well, and are pretty much indestructible in kitchen use. Not too much selection in sizes and shapes though. Some people don't much like the "feel" of them, which comes mainly from the straight line shapes needed for the simple casting they do.

With most makers other than the "prestige" lines mentioned above, it's impossible to rely on brand name alone to get good quality. One maker that appears frequently in my area in hardware and discount stores is "Tramontina," mostly made in Brazil, and some of theirs are pretty good. Others are "Flint" quality. A problem with them is that most of their stuff has some kind of serrated or other "funky" edge - not a knife, but a "saw" of some description. (There are uses for saws, but only a few in the kitchen.) I have found a few that made excellent knives once I cut the teeth off. There's also a "knock off" brand called "Travotina" that rarely has good steel, but usually is something less suitable. An additional "weakness" with the dime-store knives is that they frequently have very hard and slick finishes on the handles, making them pretty in the store, but harder to hold on to in use.

The real secret to selecting good knives is to learn how to use them. It's a "skill" that takes some learning. Only then, should you invest in a "lifetime quality" selection. Wait until you're over 40 and have practiced cutting things for half a lifetime, then buy for your grandkids' lifetime. The only way to get good quality before that is to get them from your grandparents. (In the world as it should be.)

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:27 AM

Check out a professional Chef Supply place... They lots of other goodies besides knives too! JiK has good specific US advice - you only get what you pay for.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:42 AM

A master machinist (CPO, pattern maker) taught me how to sharpen a knife. A 'razor edge' is too hard to maintain to be worth bothering with and usually cuts no better than a slightly jagged edge. Sharpen once every week or two on a medium fine stone and whet on a steel as needed. Remember to sharpen as if you were trying to shave the stone or the steel. The magnified edge should be about 60º, too steep an angle is fragile.

High carbon steel takes a much better edge than stainless but is harder to maintain. I prefer Sabatier and Haenkel. It's really a matter of what works best for you, though.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM

Many butcher departments use a knife service which replaces their knives with newly sharpened ones on a weekly basis (the butchers only do a little touch-up sharpening between deliveries). After knives from such services reach a certain point of wear due to repeated sharpenings, they are taken out of service. You can often get them at bargain prices if you don't mind the looks. I have a "worn out" Forschner boning knife that is my absolute favorite. It ain't purty but it cuts like the dickens.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:51 AM

I swear by Global myself.
Giok

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM

Keep them in a pyramid.

(or so I've heard)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM

Thanks for all this . I can see there is a lot more to this subject than I realised.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:03 PM

Learn to use a whetstone and steel, and

***Keep them out of the G D diswasher!***

--and then there's woodcarving knives; you should strop them like a straight razor, but not quite. And ther'e Arkansas stones, and India stones, and ceramic and diamond stones and Japanese water stones-- a whole weird world...

clint

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:53 PM

JiK – WOW! Are you a chef?

wld – you're in/near Sheffield, aren't you? I don't suppose you went to the Victorian Christmas Market at Kelham Island this weekend...

Thing is, as you walk down the street to Kelham Island, there are several factories (i.e, Richardsons [knives/cutlery], Atkinson's [tools] and Cut-Rite [scissors]) who take advantage of the passing crowds and run their year-end inventory clearance sales on the week-end. This means you can buy high-quality knives, saws, scissors, cutlery etc at wholesale prices (or less!). For example, I've bought knife sets there for £20-£25 that were the exact same thing (or better!) as I've seen in department stores like M&S for £100-£150!

Unfortunately, your/my timing is impeccable – as they will have just closed a few hours ago...

However, my hubby & I stock up during these sales (presents for family/friends – especially those in the US) and if you PM me, we could see if we have something that matches what you're looking for; we'll be happy to pass it along to you for whatever we paid for it. (Or – if you don't mind letting the "grass grow under your feet" ;^) for a bit longer – you can wait 'til next year's Victorian Market rolls 'round again...)

Also, JiK, while your answer was comprehensive and most impressive, you might be interested to know that a fairly recent (in the last 4-5 yrs or so) development in knives is a "high velocity oxy-fuel sprayed coating of tungsten carbide*" edge – which does not corrode and really and truly never needs sharpening. (These knives are so sharp, you are advised not to use them to cut anything on good plates, because they will seriously scratch the surface).
I can vouch for these (we have a bunch of 'em, if you're interested) because my (metallurgist) hubbie's PhD advisor is the guy who invented/developed this coating specifically for this purpose). And – wld – they can even cut onions, tomatoes, etc!

(JiK – if you're interested, you're welcome to PM me as well.)

*I am hoping that I managed to correctly remember this technical description of them during the time it took me to finish talking with my hubbie and walk back to the computer...! ;^)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM

As a life long carpenter and wood carver, I value my knives and chisels. A dull knife is very dangerous as you are tempted to use it as a sword or a hatchet. That's how "Three Finger Jake" earned his knickname.

I use the "our knives need sharpening" ploy occasionally to go to my shop at night and build a fire in the stove, put on some good music, take a glass of vodka (I am a Finnlander) and sharpen our knives.

I've even been known to do the same for some of my better deck customers, just as a "thank you" for the jobs they give me.

As someone already said, learn to use a couple of different grits of stones ... and don't forget the vodka. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:01 PM

OOOPS! I forgot to mention an idea. One of our local meat markets will sharpen, for free, his customers knives occasionally. You might check around. Bob

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:02 PM

My daughter, a chef. also likes Global knives. I am not as big on them as I am my old Haenkels. along the same vein, I have some pocket knives and fantastic cork screws that are LAguiole. Beware of lots of companies calling themselves Laguiole but the CHateau Laguiole and the Forge Laguiole brands are fantastic as well as pretty pricey. I have a set of Forge Laguiole steak knives that are an absolute joy to use.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:26 PM

There's an old saying regarding Guest Clint's comment: "If it's not in your hand it should be in the block." A quick rinse when you finish the cut, and a wipe with a clean cloth will keep the knives in good shape. Unfortunately, the "pros" often don't have the option of doing what's best for the tools, since health department regulations in many places demand that "everything goes through the washer.

As to the best sharpening methods, except for "the less the better," every user should learn how to do his own. Very slight variations in the edge "style" can make a big difference, and every usage sort of wants its own special touch. Only the one who uses it can really do it right.

Yorkshire Yankee - I've been exposed to TC edged tools (the spray coat kinds and others) for over 40 years. In the "last 4 or 5 years" they've been made available in "consumer" cutting tools (knives) but I don't particularly care for them for most uses, for the reason above. With this kind of an edge, you're stuck with what it comes with, and I - and most who have learned to use their cutting tools - often don't exactly agree with the "one size fits all" camp. I do have a couple of "choppers" with this kind of edge, but I con't consider them favorites.

The other side of "never needs sharpening" is "can never be sharpened" if you want a little different edge form for your use.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Margaret V
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:31 PM

So is there any special information I should know concerning good bread knives, or does the general information above tell me what I need to know? Thanks, Margaret

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:52 PM

A good bread knife has a scalloped serration, usually. You can't sharpen it yourself without special tools. I'd say get one you like and replace it when it no longer cuts well. If you have got the equipment to sharpen it, I much prefer high carbon. Otherwise stainless is good enough and more convenient.

Proper maintainance takes time and effort. You might not care to bother if it's not important to you.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:10 PM

I still use one of my Grandmother's bread knife. It's different in that is like a little saw with very small teeth. The obvious age and feel of the handle is a delight. I'm guessing it's over one hundred year old ... and it's still got many more useful years left! Bob

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dave Swan
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:31 PM

As others have said: Learn to sharpen your knives, whatever the quality, using multiple grades of grit. In a general purpose kitchen knife 22 degrees of edge works really well. To achieve that, stand the knife upright on the stone, there's 90 degrees; lay the knife over half way to perpendicular, there's 45 degrees; halfway over again gets you 22 degrees. Now take long, steady strokes in one direction, reverse and repeat. Lots on instructions are on the net providing details.

I prefer high carbon steel for the edge I can put on it, as I can maintain the knife and not worry about rust.

It's hard to beat the Wusthof Professional series, in my opinoin.

And don't let your knives near the dishwasher, it's bad for the handle and the blade.

D

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:35 PM

I use Chicago cutlery for the most part, and I have one AG Russell paring knife. I use what I and my wife can sharpen well, either by quick swipes on a steel or by the longer and better method of Arkansas stones. I also have a couple of SMALL diamond whets, but I haven't really done much with them.

Some years ago I bought a "Japanese cleaver" type of knife. Stainless steel, and the tang doesn't got all the way through the handle. It dulled and my brother -- more about him in a minute -- sharpened it on his high-speed vertical sander. It's still got a heckuva an edge, but I don't use it much and when it dulls this time, it's history.

My youngest brother can sharpen knives. Oh Boy, can he sharpen knives or anything else with an edge. He brings 'em to a fine wire edge by using progressively finer diamond laps and then polishes off the diamond edges with the hardest Arkansas stone available. Following that, he'll strop 'em. He learned to do sharpen from an old-time barber and has simply updated his tools. When asked to sharpen something, he usually takes it up to "usable" (shaves the hair off his arm); the last time I told him to do a REAL job (on my Leatherman's blade) he took it up to "dangerous" -- and I promptly cut myself and bled all over the hardware store counter. The cut did close nicely, though, and left no scar. My bro has also won bets by sharpening the old-fashioned scalpels and having surgeons use them (on meat, not people) against the new disposable ones.

Someday, maybe this week!, he's going to mail me my epees AND the knife (damascus blade, antler handle) my other brother made and gave to the sharpener bro to, well, to sharpen.

No, I won't be using that knife for kitchen work!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:11 PM

I'm a chef by trade, I'm also an ex slaughterman, a good sharp knife is important, it's also safer, [a sharp knife will not slip], get a good quality set of knifes, and use the right one for the job.
In restaurants I used Sabatier, in slaughterhouses we usually use Sweebo knives, [there the ones with the yellow handles].

I reccomend Nisbets, they have a website at www.nisbets.co.uk
their proffesional knifes start from only £2.95, they stock a full range of knifes, from all good makes, they ofeer next day delivery on all orders made before 5pm, I have used them myself many times, and always got good service.

Other good knives include Victorinox, [same company that make Swiss Army Knives, it could be a good idea to visit your local catering supply shop, and hold a few knives, see which ones you prefer, buy a good sharpening steel as well, and ask a chef, or butcher to show you how to use it.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:22 PM

Just looked at the Nisbets website, and apparently it's spelt
Swibo.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:55 PM

Many thanks for all this information and helpful advice.

thanks everyone!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM

Actually not YY here; it's her other half.

I'm a metallurgist; I used to work next door to the cutlery research lab (and got to take some of their used test samples home). My PhD supervisor invented (and patented) what I think is the very best of the no-sharpening knife systems.

The first thing to think about is how you use and care for your knives. If you are a chef, butcher or similar or if you otherwise have access to training (or self-teaching) in how to sharpen a knife properly, then a traditional knife that needs frequent re-sharpening will give you the very best edge you can have. However, as the angle you are aiming for is 18 degrees, and half a degree does make a difference, those of us who are not kitchen gods may find that one of the better no-sharpening knives gives us better results than we could manage for ourselves.

I'm assuming that wld does not want to invest the time needed in learning to professionally sharpen a knife and keep it in top form, so...

There are many types of no-sharpen knife:

The oldest (Richardson's "Laser 5", "Laser 10" and their copies) have an edge like a fancy saw. It does not cut like a saw though – because, unlike wood – food is soft. These work because the tips of the teeth take all of the wear, leaving the edge in the valleys between still excellently sharp, even after years of use. As the blade slides through the food, the fibres spring up behind the teeth, encounter the still-sharp part of the edge and are cut.

Trouble is, they are a swine to clean (you get bits of washing cloth and towel stuck to the teeth) and they look ugly. When they do finally go blunt, you can't sharpen them without access to the special machine that originally made them.

The more recent type (Richardson's "Plasma" and its copies) use Physical Vapour Deposition (PVD) coatings of Titanium Nitride (the pretty gold colour) or Chromium Nitride (a more boring grey). Often this treatment is combined with the "laser" type serrated edge – sometimes not. They work because the TiN/CrN coating is very hard, and wear-resistant, so they keep their edge for a very long time. The problem is the edge should be a sharp angle between the two sides of the knife, but as the nitride deposits, it tends to take on a rounded shape, and is not faithful to the sharp angle of the underlying metal. This means they start out kinda-sharp (not, as you might hope, sharp-sharp) but stay kinda-sharp for the rest of their lives. The coating is so hard that any attempt to re-sharpen the knife is very likely to damage the sharpener.

The third type (the one invented and patented by Jess Cawley at Sheffield Hallam University and owned by Richardson's) uses a High-Velocity Oxy-Fuel (HVOF) sprayed Tungsten Carbide coating along the edge on one side of the blade only. They are marketed in the UK under the names "Fusion", "Fusion Infinity" and "Fusion Professional". They have appeared under M&S's own brand, but so do knives without this coating. They have been sold in the USA under the "Regent Sheffield" brand, but as far as I know are not widely available. The tungsten carbide is a dull grey, slightly speckled substance, laid down in a thin layer along just one side of the edge. If you run your finger VERY CAREFULLY across it, you can feel that it's rough. The Tungsten carbide is extremely hard and so it wears (and loses its sharpness) very slowly. However, when it does wear, it's the uncoated side of the steel that wears first, so the edge angle remains sharp. Eventually the uncoated edge wears so far that a microscopic flake of the edge, complete with the tungsten carbide coat, will come off, leaving a brand new and extremely sharp edge-surface – which still has the tungsten carbide protection and retains its 18 degree angle.

Because one side is uncoated, it is possible to sharpen/modify the blade by sharpening only on the uncoated edge – though it's not reccomended unless you know what you are doing.

The underlying metal is stainless steel, and (with precautions) will even tolerate being put in the dishwasher. Chefs will not make much use of them, because they can get better results by sharpening their own; they are also unpopular with those who want a knife that looks like the ones the TV chefs use (try Sabatier), but for the rest of us, the "Fusion" type Tungsten Carbide on-one-side knife is probably the most practical that money can buy – and far from being the most expensive.

The final consideration is handle type. First, it has to be comfortable for you, and people do tend to have different hand sizes – one size does not fit all. Try before you buy.

The cheapest is moulded plastic. It doesn't look so good and has an association with cheap knives, so the better ones for the domestic market don't tend to have them. However, if you look carefully at the cold meats and butchery counters at your supermarket, you will see that they are probably using moulded-handle professional knives – because the moulded handle gives no hiding place for bacteria and will survive the dishwasher.

Next up (probably) is the wooden handle – as used by Chicago Cutlery in the US and very few here in the UK. (BTW, Chicago Cutlery are not as good as they should be for the price – the ones I've seen don't even use full tang!). Wood looks good, but wears badly, is the most prone to loosening, and gives bacteria a hang-out in the gap between the wood and that metal part that is the continuation of the blade into the handle (the "tang").

Next is the hard plastic riveted-on handle. They look good, wear well, are fairly resistant to loosening (especially if the tang runs the whole length of the handle – a "full tang"). There is not much possibility for bacteria to colonise between the plastic and the metal tang, because it's riveted on so tight.

The ultimate is the fully-forged bolstered blade with full-tang three-rivet handle. The bolster (the thick piece of metal at the base of the blade on some knives) means that the meeting between the metal and the plastic/wood of the handle is a half-inch or so back from where it might touch the food. These knives tend to be hand-forged and are owned by professionals or handed down from ancestors. Buying them is seriously expensive, even if you go to the maker.

Sabatier (and many of their competitors') knives look like they have a fully-forged bolster; maybe they did in the distant past, but what's on sale now has a ground blade with a "fake" bolster soldered/brazed on.

Here endeth this week's metallurgy-for-chefs lecture!

Next week: applying the general metalworking equation to pasta-making...

Iain (YY's Other Half)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:11 AM

Good points from Yorkshire Yankee.
I bought myself a set of the "Laser 5" knives when they first came out, would not really reccomend them, [2 reasons, the early ones seemed to have a chrome type coating on the blades that wore of after heavy use, and secondly, they had plastic handles], like he says, they are also difficult to keep clean.

Be aware of the different handle types mentioned above, it may seem insignificant, but bear in mind that a plastic handled knife, [Swibo, Victorinox, Laser etc] may be fine for use in cold areas, [butchers, abbatoirs, fish counters etc], a plastic handled knife left on a hot surface, will melt and become useless.

Wooden handled knives, [and wooden chopping boards] are not popular in commercial kitchens as Enviromental Health Officers don't like them, Food Satefy Act 1990 states that surfaces and equipment used in commercial kitchens should be "Smooth, Solid and Impervious to dirt"
ie, non porous and absorbant.

you will still see wooden chopping blocks used in butchers, but in hotels and restaraunts chopping boards are almost always plastic and usually colour coded, [red for raw meat, green for veg, blue for fish etc].

Knives are a personal thing, but I prefer Sabbatier.A good set will last a lifetime.I think there is a set of Sabbatier knives in Argos, but check the prices, you may find it cheaper at Nisbets.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:13 AM

I once had a dress belt knift (experimental method) from Boie Knife Works, now defunct, in which carbide crystals were comehow formed within the body of a cast steel blade. I gave it to my nephew after 20 years, still sharp as the day I bought it. This kind of thing is rare. The blade featured a feather in reverse etching.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:29 AM

Another thing about the "Laser" type knives, is that they are very light, I prefer a reasonably heavy knife.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Hrothgar
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

Don't carry them in your sporran.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:16 AM

Wonderful thread. As to wood versus plastic, some time ago I saw some stories like this:


Wood Versus Plastic Cutting Boards


I turned up several other such references, all claiming that experiments with bacteria treated wood and plastic cutting boards demonstrated that wood was apparently safer. They didn't have a theory as to WHY. I did a quick check on urban legends via www.snopes.com and turned up nothing. Eager to find out if the more experienced posters here have additional info. The knowledgeable entries in this thread have been a real treat to read, JiK, YY, JfH, thank you!

I've been a Leatherman fan for years, always carry one with me. Got me in trouble in the airport Saturday when I forgot to put it in my luggage...

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:28 AM

I purchased a Sabatier Chef's knife at the age of 17, used it professsionally for 8 years, all day every day and used it until 2 years ago when it (not me)had reached the age of 29. It is still a good knife but too small for most of the uses I put it to. I then purchased a new Sabatier Chef's knife at approx £25 which I envisage will last me in domestic use for the resy of my life and which last my son for some years after that. the first was Carbon steel which as already been stated holds a better edge, but the more recent stainless are almost as good. Do NOT wash it, wipe it clean and dry it after each use and the edge will remain sharp with just a brush with a steel before and after use

Cheers

Nick

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:04 AM

I notice that nobody had mentioned the 'auto-sharpening' knives (and scissors) that came with the 'sharpening holder'.... :-)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:17 AM

That's because basically they are cr*p

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:37 AM

We used to have one of those... I'm still using the Kitchen Devil I bought when I was 18... the auto sharpener barely made 18 months.

LTS

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:25 AM

My Chicago Cutlery knives are full tang, and have walnut handles (which I don't care for as I should). I wouldn't buy anything but a full-tang knife for any use if I could avoid it, whether that use is in the kitchen or out in the woods & mountains. I've had 'em break on me when I needed 'em and the resulting cussin' is a wonder to hear.

I also wouldn't have a pocketknife that wasn't a lockback. I've had THOSE close on my fingers when I was using them and the cussin' is similar and colored with blood.

I wuz brought up to sharpen at a 10 to 12 degree angle.

Dead right on trying the knives before you buy! If you can't use it safely and comfortably, don't waste the money.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:57 AM

I'm surprised to see the report of Chicago Cutlery knives without full tang. I haven't seen one like that in the local trade. Just goes to show ya' that you can't go by "brand name" alone. Most of the makers produce both good and bad, depending on your standards of goodness and evil.

Re the report on wood vs plastic cutting boards: Local "Health Department" regs in my area now prohibit wood in "commercial use." They also require a separate surface for each kind of "meat." If you want to stay in business, you don't get to choose. In the home kitchen the choice is less obvious.

Most oils, vegetable or mineral, are to some extent "bacteriostatic." They inhibit growth of bacteria, although they won't necessarily kill the little critters. The "food film" that adheres to many plastic surfaces is a nutrient for them, and is almost impossible to remove completely with ordinary "hand washing." For some of the common plastics, the "film" that adheres can't even be reliably penetrated by strong germicides/antiseptics.

If you can (and do) run your cutting board through the dishwasher, at "sanitizing temperatures" the bacteria will be killed in the wash, and the plastic board will stand the dishwasher. If your board is too big for "sanitizing," or is bolted to the kitchen floor, then the wooden surface is arguably better. Keep it clean, and don't let stuff sit on it long enough to "grow into" the wood. Frequently, wash with a "germicide" (Clorox was often used in commercial kitchens before the wood ban), and as soon as the block is dry, replenish the oil (and the bacteriostatic properties) with a good vegetable oil or, if available, a "butcher block oil" specifically for this use. (NEVER put a mineral oil on wood.)

The same treatment you use for the wooden cutting block/board can also be used on any wooden knife handles.

Note that this interpretation is not accepted by all. They're entitled to their own damfool opinions.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:03 AM

Interesting post from Robomatic,
It's useful to remember that abbatoirs, cuting rooms, fish counters etc are usually cold envioroments, whilst hotel and restaraunt kitchens are hot, bacteria grows better in warm enviorments.
Also at the end of each day, a butchers block will be scrubbed with bleach to kill all bacteria, butchers suppliers sell stuff [not sure of the trade name, but Dettox type stuff] for this pupose.
The reason for different coloured chopping boards is to prevent cross-contamination of raw and cooked food.
If you use only 1 chopping board, uou could use 1 side for raw meat, and the other side for cooked stuff, just get a marker pen, and right "Raw" one one side, or get a small dot of red and green paint on each side.
If you are chopping chicken etc, then going to carve it with the same knife after its cooked, it's an idea to give your knife a wipe with an anti bacterial wipe.

Someone mentioned them "self sharpening knifes", that have a device in the knife box, they are rubbish!
Get a good knife, and learn how to sharpen it properly.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

On a slight tangent, how to store knives.
I feel much happier with the wall mounted magnetic racks. They stay clean, take up no space on the counter, mean you can always see your knives, and I've never had anything come off them.
   Knive blocks tend to end up dirty, take up counter room, and are prone to knocking over, which sends knives flying.

Any of knowledgeable/opionionated people out there have an opinion?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

John from Kansas posted while I was typing, but we seem to be saying the same thing!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM

Have only had one accident with a knife block, had countless accidents with magnetic strips..... usually because the magnetic pull is too strong for the smaller bladed knives and pulling them off jerks the big ones off too..... nearly lost a toe trying to get a grapefruit knife off a magnitic rack, when the big carver decided to leap off too.

LTS

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:24 PM

We store our knives in something like this. It's inexpensive, sits in a drawer, and is very easy to clean. The plastic doesn't dull the edges, either.

My hunting knives, re-enacting knives, pocket knives, etc. are carefully stored in a wooden box -- OUT of their sheathes!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:25 PM

Just want to point out that I seem to be getting the credit for my husband's treatise on knives/cutting edges. While I'm tempted to allow myself to gain a Mudcat reputation as an authority on such things ;^), I thought I'd better make clear I'm not actually the one with the expertise.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM

whats it Austin Powers said ....get back in the knife drawer....?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM

Iain here again

Mack/Misophist:

"I once had a dress belt knift (experimental method) ... in which carbide crystals were comehow formed within the body of a cast steel blade."

It was probably tool steel. All high strength steels have quite a lot of carbide in them, but its usually iron carbide or chromium carbide. The real hard carbides are found in tool steel and high-speed steel. Some of these alloys have so much carbide in them that they stretch the definition of what is a metal and what is a metal-ceramic composite.

Hrothgar:
Good advice. Also don't do what YY does and leave them in the washing up bowl. Even if there is no water in the bowl yet, it's a bad idea...

Rapaire:
10-12 degrees is super sharp but will have poor edge retention. Its more the kind of blade angle used for surgical instruments than kitchen knives. If 12 degrees is what you are used to cutting with, then thats what's right for you. BTW surgeons do not use the sharpest possible blades. Tests have been done with surgeons using blades that are as sharp as technically possible, but the surgeons found they cut so easily that they had no tactile feedback from the cutting resistance and so the blade was more difficult to control accurately. There is such a thing as too sharp, even for surgery...

John/jOhn:
Wet wood tends to be acidic, which is naturally bacteriostatic (trees after all are slow to rot and have evolved to resist bacteria over an awfully long time). The other thing that makes wood good for butcher blocks is that butchers usually not only disinfect the block at the end of the day, I have seen them also scrub it with a wire brush, so they remove the top layer of the wood, exposing fresh clean wood below. This just can't be done with plastic. This is one of the reasons that old butchers blocks are such a long way from flat and so much thinner than a brand new block. The problem with a wood handled knife is less the wooden handle and more the gap between the handle and the tang.

The other problem with plasic boards and sharp knives is that the knives cut into the plastic and the plastic mostly closes up once the blade is removed, so its difficult to clean inside the cut. Knife cuts in wood tend not to close up, so when you clean the board you are more likely to remove whatever is in the cut.

Bunnahabain/LTS:
Blocks and magnetic racks are both OK. I've used both, blocks work best when you are able to keep the block at the back of the work surface where it won't get knocked often and can't fall to the floor. Some mag racks are a bit weak for really big knives, so either leave the big ones in the block (or in a plastic sleeve/tube in the drawer) or set up two mag racks so that the big blades cross both magnets. Don't overfill a mag rack, that increases the risk of getting a whole shower of knives when you wanted only one!
Some of our knives live in a "knife drawer", a very low profile wooden drawer with recesses for various knives, this is built into the bottom of a fairly thick chopping board. Not only does it take up "no" space (we would have the chopping board anyway) but the thickness raises the cutting surface a bit closer to what our chiropractor advises, as opposed to what the furniture dwarves provide "as standard"...

Iain
YY's other half

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:15 PM

I think Mack/Misophist was talking about the knives made by David Boye. He calls the metal "Dendritic Cobalt."
_________
Boye Dendritic Cobalt

Advanced new metallurgy for the ocean environment, Boye Dendritic Cobalt (BDC) is not a steel, but a metallic alloy composed of cobalt, chrome, nickel, tungsten, silicon, molybdenum, iron, and carbon.

BDC cuts aggressively, and keeps cutting. It is impervious to saltwater corrosion and is non-magnetizable.

What is "Dendritic"?
Dendritic comes from the Greek word meaning "branching" or "tree-like." It describes the crystalline pattern of hard carbide structures throughout each knife blade, as shown in the microscopic photo to the right.

These carbide crystals create micro-serrations along the cutting edge and maintain its structural integrity. Each sharpening exposes a fresh set of hard carbide micro-teeth.
_____

Look Here

I must try one of these some day.

clint

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:17 PM

Oh, I didn't say that I thought 10 to 12 degrees was a good idea, just that that's what I was brought up to do. In actual practice, I probably put on an edge more like 15 degrees.

A true story about my brother and a knife he sharpened.

Being unemployed, Ted often substitute teachs. And one of the regular teachers asked him to come in dressed as one of the settlers of the area would have dressed around 1820.

Arrangement were made that he could carry his flintlock, axe and knife into the classroom. So Ted, a drama major and an actor, went "on stage."

The kids were wowed. He demonstrated the rifle (without powder and ball, of course), explained the use of a corn boiler, discussed parched corn, and so on. Then one of the kids, a real smart-ass, said to Ted that since his rifle had no loads, obviously his knife was a fake too.

Now, Ted had made that rifle. And to imply that he was faking it was more than he could take.

He simply looked at the kid, pulled out the rifleman's knife (similar to this one), turned it edge up, and slowly lowered a piece of paper to the edge of the knife, paper edge to knife edge. It sliced the paper quite nicely. The punk then just sort of gulped and shut up.

A knife? You call that a knife? Now, this is a knife! -- Crocodile Dundee

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:07 AM

Dear Clint Keller,

I stand corrected. My spelling was taken from the blades of the knives I still have - very small and easy to mis-read. The technical information is what I remember Mr Boye saying when he sold me the knife, many years ago. It was one of the first made. Thanks for the link. I thought that when the Sacramento area shop closed they went out of business. It's good to see he's still around.

The ones I kept are so old, they were made from broken saw mill blades.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:29 AM

My brother made me a patch knife (a small blade used to cut the patching when you load a ball into a muzzleloading rifle) from an industrial hacksaw blade. He mounted it into a handle of flamegrained curly cherry. It's a lovely knife. It holds a great edge. No, you can't have it.