BS: Philosophy and logic

Subject: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:16 PM

Is reality perception or is perception reality or is individual interpation as long as not to cause pain to others the answer?
Be Free, Be Happy, And make sure the world is good to ya all. Kindaloupehackenweez......PEACE....To all mudcatter dudes and dudetts.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:17 PM

Yes, yes, yes, OK, OK, I'll try.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:20 PM

"Is reality perception or is perception reality.."

well, it's the same...only different.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:21 PM

Maybe, maybe, pain can mean growth, Ok, Ok, yes, you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:25 PM

Except, Bill D., where they're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:37 PM

Logic is the understanding you have......perception is the understanding you have....where do the two meet????
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: *Laura*
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM

logic is what is logical and perception is what you percieve. Oh, wait.... that's no help at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:46 PM

is individual interpation as long as not to cause pain to others the answer?

I vote for this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:04 PM

"Not to worry..."

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:47 PM

Perception and logic are from different parts of the jungle.

Logic is an innate sense of order and sequence in information. There are various kinds of logic possible.

Reality is the average of perception.   Things get more solid and less refutable in proportion to the amount of agreement that builds up around them.

Perception is an innate capability. The rest is overlay.

There -- now I have put my foot in it for another six months or so. Sigh.

Enjoy! :>D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:53 PM

"Reality is the average of perception.   Things get more solid and less refutable in proportion to the amount of agreement that builds up around them."


So, until there was agreement otherwise, the sun DID move around the earth?

And the Pharohs were gods?

and the world was made of air, fire, water, and earth?



NOW I understand you, Amos...

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:03 PM

dear 'kindaloupe'...if you are bothering to read this *grin*..(we never NEED thread starters to come back..we just go merrily on...)\

just start reading here, and when you have digested this, come on back and we'll talk..*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:21 PM

Perception is not reality. Much of what we perceive is illusion. As we are incapable of knowing exactly how much of what we perceive is real and how much is illusory, the argument can be made that "reality" doesn't really exist at all.

The Camptown Races sing this song: "Doo-dah, doo-dah"

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:44 PM

Reality exists; you just can't contact it directly.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:07 PM

It's "Camptown ladies sing this song", isn't it?

So much for "Traditional American Folk Song as Zen Koan".

It'll never work if ya don't at least get the lyrics right.

I shall now return to being an idjit.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:22 PM

o, until there was agreement otherwise, the sun DID move around the earth? And the Pharohs were gods? and the world was made of air, fire, water, and earth?

NOW I understand you, Amos...


BeardedBruce:

No, you do not.

None of the verbal beliefs you cite were real to anyone, as far as I know. There may have been some few who saw those things, but obviously there was an overwhelming proportion of those who saw things otherwise! It is a simple enough affair to get people to give lip service to almost anything which will forward their self interest. Reality as it is perceived is a different thing altogether.

It is wise to remember the false views you mention, and quite a few others, because they might provide some essential humility about your own certainties and the degree to which they are or are not absolutes.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:27 PM

"obviously " ????

Having read extesively of the Greek philosophers, vary few accepted the theory of atoms, although it was talked about. How do you know that "None of the verbal beliefs you cite were real to anyone, "? I see no evidence, except your desire to support that viewpoint.

And I think you also need to be aware of your own false views, "they might provide some essential humility about your own certainties and the degree to which they are or are not absolutes."

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:39 PM

OK, Bruce. Thanks for the advice.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:39 PM

you are quite welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:49 PM

Atomists. (from the www)

ANCIENT ATOMISTS

" There is nothing but atoms and space,
everything else is only an opinion'
- Democritus from Abdera

To get the most exact understanding and become acquainted with the development of thoughts in atomistics one should go back in time for over two thousand years and come to know attainments of ancient Greek philosophers. They were the first to research the world of microstructure. The researches were in considerable range ( but not always ) limited to solely logical considerations not supported by any experiments or discerning observations of nature. That caused many contradictions and often divergences between theory and practice.

Thales from Miletus ( 620?- 540? B. C. )

Anaximander from Miletus (611- 547 B. C. )

Anaximenes from Miletus (570?- 526 B. C. )

Heraclitus from Ephesus (540?- 480 B. C. )

Xenophanes from Colophon (575?- 480? B. C. )

Parmenides from Eleusis (540?- 470? B. C. )

Empedocles from Acragas ( 490?- 430? B. C. )

Anaxagoras from Clazomenae (500?- 428 B. C. )

Leukippos (probably about the 5-th century B. C. )

Democritus from Abdera (460?- 370? B. C. )

Epicurus (342- 270 B. C. )

Titus Lucretius Carus ( 95?- 55 B. C. )

Aristotle (384- 322 B. C. )

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:52 PM

To the peasant turning over the field for a new crop, the question of whether sun revolved around the Earth or vice versa was irrelevant. What was relevant was rain, sun, warmth -- weather to make the grain grow so that he and his would be fed again.

The rights and wrongs of the Wars of the Roses meant little to the guy who was shoved out in front. Whether or not the Czar was the Little Father of Russia was of little importance to the peasant soldier facing the German machine guns.

The Tommy who jumped up at Ypres shouting "The bullets are just shadowy reflections of reality!" found out differently when they sliced him in half.

Plato dies in 151 grains of cupro-lead; astronomy is studied by those who are fed by others. Socialism, monarchism, democracy, republicanism, theocracy, and the rest fail when famine and plague ride.

Logic is a poor crutch, perception is subjective, reality is hard. Nonetheless, it's what we have.

Besides, I'm an anarchistic solipsist.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM

"I'm an anarchistic solipsist."

Can we still be friends?

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:21 PM

THat depends on whether you are inclined to agree with him. :) If you are another solipsist, you two could argue all night.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:39 PM

Calling All Solipsists

The International Society of Solipsists is currently accepting applications for new members. All interested persons are invited to apply. Please send a brief Vita and three letters of recommendation from yourself.

Purpose

To form a sense of community with other solipsists worldwide
To interact intellectually with fellow solipsists on a local, national, and international level
To convince others to become solipsists

Official Anthem: "My Way"
Ethics symposium next fall: "The Me Generation"
Followed by a reception in the Hall of Mirrors
Spring Seminar: "Minimizing Ontological Commitments
Solipsists of the world, UNITE!
Running Counter of the Number of Solipsists

000001

(from the www; google of solipsists)

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:33 AM

Logic is a poor crutch, perception is subjective, reality is hard. Nonetheless, it's what we have.

...and some of can't even claim logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:01 AM

Song to Solipsize by:

Who Put the Bang in the Bangalangadingdong?

Who Wrote the Book of Love?

Oooo, Somebody Touch Me (Must be the Hand of the Lord)

...?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Crystal
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:30 AM

Surely philosophy and logic are to irreconcilable things. Or maybe that just happens when applied to large companies!

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Pied Piper
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:49 AM

Nicely put Rapaire.
Brucie I think Rapaire is an epistemological solipsist.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:12 AM

My gawd. Does his wife know?

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:26 AM

She knows all of my strengths and none of my faults, as I have none of the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:28 AM

But does she know you piss all over logic slopily?

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:46 AM

Solipism is the ultimate ego trip.

Solipism is not for everyone.

If solipisism is true, Shambles has only himself to blame.

"Solipsistic masochism"...biting the hand that feeds you.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:43 PM

Rapaire,

That post didn't come out the way I wanted.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:13 PM

Perception is a light drizzle. A cut down form of precipitation.

Reality is an illusion brought on by the absence of alcohol.

Philosophy is what you get for trying to spell in Greek.

Logic probably has something to do with lumps of firewood.

See? Simple isn't it.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:41 PM

Surely philosophy and logic are to irreconcilable things.

(Assuming that by "to" you mean "two"):

Wrong! Logic is a branch of philosophy. So is mathematics. Indeed, mathematics may be thought of as numeric logic. Both are systems in philosophy which attempt to organize or objectify thought.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM

Gee! Didn't mean to rain on the parade by injecting serious stuff. Sorry.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Crystal
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:35 PM

It could well be "two" Dave!
However given that my own internal brand of logic dosn't fit mathmatics (I'm dyslexic/ dyspraxic) maybe "to" is correct after all.
I am now very confused and well go away and have a drink or three until the universe resets itself ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:51 PM

Actually, logic (and mathematics) is a language in the purest sense of the term.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:23 PM

I been workin' on the railroad all the livelong day!

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:26 PM

Just to pass the time away I suppose!

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM

To all dude and dudette cats:
    Thanks for the brain food and the kicks far out solid and right on now im in a paradox of more enigma then i was before. BE free and happy and lets keep feeding each other..REALLY...THANKYOU'S VERY MUCH

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:33 PM

try this one for size..

psychology of intelligence analysis, perception and objectivity..

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:37 AM

Kindaloupehackenweez your in parodox of a need for an enema?
I hear a coffee enema is stimulating not only to the colon but to the brain.
Kona beans are supposed to be stimulating also if used properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:31 AM

I've heard of coffee enemas before and I am always prompted to ask, "Cream? One lump or two?"

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

To clarify my comments about Repaire, an epistemological solipsist (as apposed to an ontological solipsist) believes that other people exist, just that we cannot experience the Qualia of another.
It's a bit like being in a tent and having to discover what "reality"(Danger Will Smith Danger !!!),is by feeling through the skin of the tent; we are all alone behind our personal solipsistic membrane.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:09 PM

Surely mathematics is LOG-arithm-IC....Ahh well!!!
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

"is by feeling through the skin of the tent; we are all alone behind our personal solipsistic membrane."

Sounds like "The Allegory of the Cave."

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: gnu2
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:30 PM

Don't know if I have the first two mixed up ( or even corectly attributed, but you get the idea )...

To do is to be. Satre

To be is to do. DesCarte

Scooby doobee doo. Sinatra.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:28 PM

Yes, yes, Pied Piper, I made you say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:05 PM

Hay Freda Your too much give me some time for that one. I'll come up with something.
Hay Rustic Rebel: Your the master. What else can i say. I know better than to mess with the Rebel. Thanks ya all. kindloupehackenweez...PEACE.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:21 PM

Bee-dubya-ell: FYI
    Camp town ladies sing a song do da do da
    Camptown racetrack 5 miles long all the live long day
    Bet my money on the bob tail nag
    Somebody bet on the bay
or something like that...Thank you very much for responding. Stay free and be happy   kindaloupehackenweez.....PEACE..

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:09 PM

From the DT:

CAMPTOWN RACES
(Stephen Foster)

De Campptown ladies sing this somg,
Doo-da, Doo-da
De Camptown racetrack's two miles long
Oh, de doo-da day

cho: Gwine to run all night
Gwine to run all day
I bet my money on a bob-tailed nag
Somebody bet on the gray.

Oh, de long tailed filly and de big black horse,
Doo-da, doo-da@00-da,
Come to a mud hole and dey all cut across,
Oh, de doo-da day.

I wnt down South with my hat caved in,
I came back North with a pocket full of tin.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:12 PM

Great line from "Blazing Saddles": "What the hell do 'doo-da' mean?"

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:00 AM

"Doo-da" is an ancient cry among stable-muckers, to warn the gentry of the presence of equine effluent in the path.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:07 AM

To Rapaire: Thanks much for the words for the tune..Far out solid and right on. I stand corrected and thank you for that to.,
   To Bill D. Thank you as well. who would have known?   very hip now if i can only retain it,.Stay free and be happy.Kindaloupehackenwez...PEACE.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:24 AM

Pearls before swine, freda.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:29 AM

So you are a, sorry, the Ontalogical Solipsist Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:03 AM

My spurs are rusted, my cloak is rent,
My plume is damp with rain
And the thistledown and the barley beards
Are thick on my horse's mane.

But my Weltansicht's as bright as my sweetheart's eye,
My Geisteskreativität is strong and free,
I created your logic and laws!
I'm the ontological solipsist raparree
I'm the anarchistic solipsist, Rapaire!

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:56 PM

WON-derful poem!   And oh, so true!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: GUEST,Nose to the grindstone
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM

Read the pearls before swine remark and get back on topic. We don't wish to be told again, do we.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:56 PM

"If I wanted to stay on topic, I wouldn't be at Mudcat"

                      Bill D. Dec, 2004)

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:33 PM

If God does not exsist would it be nessisary to invent him? From a plack on the wall of a New Orleans whore house. From the movie Easy Rider..

Is hope a set-up for dissapointment or an illusion, holding us back from reality?

Or just something to believe in when there is nothing else left?

When theres nothing else left i think the first thing I need to remember is to treat others the same way i wish to be treated and the rest takes care of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:49 PM

Earl's before spine. Alphabetically, anyway. In a philosophical sense, would Earl agree? Could the spine agree? Await the decision, coming soon to a thread near you.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 09:16 PM

Kinda...weez, that's good logic unless of coarse your a masochist or sadist. If you are getting pleasure from getting or giving pain, then I'll have to pass on that.. ahem...golden rule!

Hope, disappointment and reality are really just the illusion aren't they?
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 10:00 PM

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think"

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day...teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat all day drinking beer."

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 12:28 AM

Hay Rustic Rebel ya ole jungle cat. Oh, I mean mudcat. Check this out Hope, disapointment, reality, illusion. It probly all boils down to how we handle them. Once again interpation. But it is said "The Hearts of Men are easily corrupted. From Lord of the Rings. And interpation is related to opinions and you know what they say about them. Which bring to mind a couple of things my mother used to say and this should and probly will end up in the Phrase we believe and use Thread.
1). If you learn how to use you head, you wont have to use your back
2). If you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.
What they have to do with the topic at hand at this time is still and enigma to me. Probly shouldnt write until i learn to spell either
   
Good one Bill D. Been there will continue to do it myself. Except now am looking forward to being on the ice in a warm house stareing at a hole in the ice. Just watching and waiting, waiting and watching
They say the secret to seccessful fishing is how one holds there lips
I found that starting to roll one is just as seccessful. Stay Free and be happy. Kindaloupehackenweez...PEACE..

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 01:46 AM

Freda Cat: Psychology of intelligence analysis, perception and objectivity:?????

    Perhaps what we believe or disbelieve and the ability to retain it and apply it/and how it pertains to us, then how we organize it, then how we handle it???   Man What the *^%#!?*
   
    Am i getting close? Either way i'm still chewing on it and will continue to do so. And afraid for a long time to come.. Thank you Thank you Thank you. Something to think about when there is nothing else that i can remember to think about., ALLWAYS THINKING;
   
Keep'em coming: Stay free and be happy..kindaloupehackenweez..PEACE.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:08 AM

Hope might be an illusion, but lots of times it's all we have. Despair, on the other hand, is very real.

Subject: RE: BS: Philosophy and logic
From: kindaloupehackenweez
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:59 AM

Despair is only very real if you allow your thalamus to over ride your
idyllic. Bad thoughts equal bad vibs which equals bad karma. Reconizing negitivity the sooner and re-routing it to possitive and more frequently will eventually elliminate any negitivity. Although still not there myself am working on the philosophy of "DIANETICS"
Never made it to the half way point in the book for spent more time looking up words in the dictonary and even more time trying to pronounce the words there in..But a cool interpation just the same thank you very much Rapaire. Another good read i never finished is the somewhat New, Innovative, and Though-Provoking Work by the Author of The Dancing Wu Li Masters "THE SEAT OF THE SOUL" A Remarkable Treatment of Thought, Evolution, and Reincarnation" by "Gary Zukav"
FYI....Stay free and be happy...Kindaloupehackenweez...PEACE...