BS: BNP Leader Arrested

Subject: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:14 AM

BNP Party Chairman Nick Griffin was arrested at 7 AM this morning on suspicion of incitement to racial hatred.
BNP founder John Tyndall was arrested yesterday on suspicion of racial hate crimes, 70 year old Tyndall is well known to the police, and has served 3 jail sentences, 2 for race hate crimes, and 1 for possesing illegally held guns and ammunition.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:21 AM

Big Ron Atkinson had better go into hiding then :~)
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: muppett
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:39 AM

Brilliant news, lets hope the same happens to the BNP councillors in Bradfud

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:52 AM

Let's hope they are locked in a cell with men of differing skin colour to their own. Just like the young Asian guy recently murdered by his cell mate. I'm not advocating murdering them..........but to be on the recieving end of their own bullying tactics wouldn't go amiss.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:04 AM

Don't like this incimtement law. I'm with Voltaire when it comes to free speech. (Likewise, with the blasphemy law. I'd rather it was abolished than extended to "protect" more religions.) If Tyndall has committed real racial-hate crimes, rather than just saying what he professes to believe, that's another matter. As is illegal possession of guns and ammo.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: GUEST,Smiler
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:19 AM

I agree with Peter K.

I would rather hear them tout their views, so I can form my own not very complimentary opinion of them.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 08:51 AM

This NL party prefer to shoot the messenger, and then pass a law to prevent any other such news from reaching our ears. They do know what's best for us, better than we do after all!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM

In the US, I believe "inciting" is not just about saying what one thinks, but about deliberately (provably) arousing ACTION as well. How does the law read on your side of the pond, and what is the "BNP"?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:06 AM

Some twenty odd years ago, a bus driver (in Bradford I think) was dismissed for being a British Movement member (a forerunner of the BNP). His colleagues, many of them Asian, took industrial action- they asserted that management should not be able to summarily discipline people without proving proper cause and following disciplinary procedures agreed with the union. He got his job back- and as a result of the other drivers' action, renounced both the BM and racism.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Flash Company
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:11 AM

Susan, BNP = British National Party, a not very savoury bunch cashing in on the fear that we are being 'swamped in illegal immigrants'.
As usual, the government is using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut, and whilst I am all for stopping hatred, religious or ethnically based, I just can't help but think that a lot of police time is going to be wasted chasing up trivial complaints and the real bigots are still going to get away with it.

FC

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:13 AM

Thanks, FC. Can it be found out if this was part of a serious investigation? Sometimes (here) they have a lot of evidence of a greater crime but not quite enough to charge all of it, so they go for what they CAN charge. Might this be one of those incidents?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:16 AM

When I saw the title I thought this thread had been started by the "I am not a racist but I vote BNP" guy. I see it was started by my frenid jHon. Wonder if that fellow will read this?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:34 AM

BNP=British National Party, a far right party, that is racist and againgst immigration.

Griffins arrest is been covered by many Uk newspapers, put "Nick Griffin" into Google News for full details, he was arrested folowing an undercover investigation along with 11 others, he is currently been held in Halifax, West Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:36 AM

They are getting national press publicity as a result. A victory for them. A defeat for free speech

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:36 AM

I also agree with Fionn. How can we all be so against political correctness, yet want to ban free speech.
Its just not joined-up thinking.

I abhor the aims of the BNP, but all the ranting against their racsism
is an attempt to obscure the great problems over racial integration (orthe lack of it),which have been simmering in the UK for many years.

We in Scotland thought ourselves immune from such folly until a short time ago,when the sight of race gangs and the conviction of a young man for "racially aggravated murder" brought the situation to the surface.
Failure of the different communities to integrate, means that the obvious differences in religion, culture and most importantly financial status, make race relations a time bomb in the UK..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:49 AM

Ake my friend-- what is a "race gang"?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

Susan...Many innercity areas in Scotland and England have become home to people of different ethnic origin.

Mainly Pakistani, Indian and the indigenous Scots in our area.

There is very little integration or even socialising among the different communities, and the gangs of youths in these areas are exclusively "one race".

There has been a very good thread here recently on this subject,cant remember the thread name at the moment....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:13 AM

Still Ake it provides a bit of variety, if someone is fed up killing people because they support the wrong football team or pray in the wrong church, they can add a new variety to their bigotry and use the colour of their skin as an excuse for their aggressive nature. It just shows how fertile is the imagination of the average Scottish 'ned'.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:26 AM

ake, thanks. Did you post in the thread you mentioned? If so it could be found by looking up your posts....

Are there any grassroots efforts to bring these gangs together (or their leaders privately) to start the proces of getting to know one another in a safe setting? That kind of background alliance-building, tho it takes awfully long, has borne fruit in many of the world's trouble spots. It's sensitive work, so it rarely gets much publicity-- publicity actually inhibits the process at the start.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:26 AM

True John ...But I find the whole senario more worrying than the mindless violence and bigotry we've grown used to over the years.

The cultural, religious\rascial element adds a dimension which could get right out of control.

The famous "war on terror" and encouraged mistrust of all things Middle Eastern,to justify our position in Iraq does not help.Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:30 AM

Susan..Sorry i cant do a clicky (genetic problems)

BS: Why havn't I heard of this?!?.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:35 AM

Susan....More genetic problems.

BS: I heard nothing of this?!?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:42 AM

BS: I heard nothing of this?!?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:43 AM

"Race" is an illusion, it does not exist, that is not to say that people don't look like other people from the same area, just that you cannot assume that the way people look tells you about other aspects of there genetic makeup.
As an example all the native people of sub-Saharan Africa have the black skin adaptation, yet there is more genetic diversity amongst them than the rest of humanity put together. This is what you would expect, as there have been modern humans in Africa longer than anywhere else.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 12:32 PM

I say no platform for Nazis, should have arrested them years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

"Susan...Many innercity areas in Scotland and England have become home to people of different ethnic origin.

Mainly Pakistani, Indian and the indigenous Scots in our area.

There is very little integration or even socialising among the different communities, and the gangs of youths in these areas are exclusively "one race"."



Scotland and England!! Your tolerance, political correctness, and lack of screening who you let into your country has led to this problem accurately described by Ake.

Your identity and culture will continue to erode because of this.

These people you have let in do not care to assimilate into your culture and expect you to cater to theirs.

I welcome immigrants into America who want to learn the language and fully integrate with American society. No one is saying to lose your cultural identity, but America is not your old country in a different place.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM

Well there you go Martin, in this country you could be arrested for saying that if some busybody brought it to the notice of the police. Now I'm not saying you're right or wrong, although there is a germ of truth in some of what you say, but in these PC days you just can't get away with saying things like that, and that's what I abhor, the fact that race realtions, like social services has become an industry in the UK. These people don't want you to hear any other thoughts on these issues apart from the ones they deem correct. It's "1984" all over again.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

Can someone please look up the applicable law and tell me what "incite" means legally?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:29 PM

OK here we go again,
I believe in censorship hence I do not believe in complete freedom of speech.

I worked for the crown prosecution service (special cases division) where we dealt with incitemet to racial hatred I can spot national front/bnp literature a mile off - NO PLATFORM
Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM

Cllr, what is the standard for "incitement"? What has to be proved?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:46 PM

Cant give you the legal definitions S too long ago its on the net I think and I wasn't a lawyer (I was just a legal executive) but I did review most of the material but I dont want to repeat what i saw here

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:50 PM

Wysiwyg it's like a lot of legal definitions inasmuch as it's capable of different interpretations. English law is 'case law' and based largely on precedent, but as with the charge of 'carrying an offensive weapon' the police have to prove intent to use whatever it is you're charged with carrying. People have been convicted on an offensive weapon charge for carrying or wearing boots/umbrellas/finger rings, among others. Incite is as long as a piece of string, what will stir you up is different to what would stir me up, and it's difficult to prove.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM

Here was me thinking BNP stood for Braindead Nazi Pricks...

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:02 PM

LOL BI

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Grab
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:09 PM

You mean it doesn't???

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:22 PM

Giok, that is scary to me. there is more than a germ of truth to it, there is plenty of truth to it.

If you do not have the freedom to express sentiments like that, let me tell you pal, you have no freedom.

We have people on our radio broadcasting these kinds of truths.

Please read the book, "The enemy within" by Michael Savage

The Radically left politically correct have caused you these problems and are threatening the culture of your country.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:06 PM

I dont agree with political correctnes but I have to say I agree with censorship so from my opinion it is a metter of degrees or where you draw the line. As a politician I'm sometimes resposible for where that line is drawn. The argument that there should not be a line falls down when taken to its logical conclusion.
Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:22 PM

There should be a line but the POLITICALLY CORRECT will l call it ethnic profiling.

I call it common sense. People should be held accountable for what they are going to contribute to a society when they are let into a country as an immigrant.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:33 PM

Define British culture, excluding any immigrant influences...methinks it can't be done.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:16 PM

The problem is, when governments try to exert control on personal freedoms, they never stop at sorting out racial or religious disharmony.
They then try to consolidatate their position through legislation against those they percieve to be dangerous.

Those would be in Martins opinion,(Ithink) communists, trade unionists ,athiests and progressives of all sorts.
Those that I see as a danger, are capitalists and religeous nuts of all denominations.
So the problem seems insoluble

In my opinion,we need to work out if we want a future under the capitalist system, or something more in tune with the environment,which will envolve a long learning curve.

If we can determine a way forward which will make the lives of our grandchildren and great grandchildren happier and more fulfilling,
then we can put the controls in place to make it happen.

Until that time we should be very carefull about any repression of personal freedoms...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:46 PM

Any judgements made on the basis of race only are invalid and obnoxious.However, we should all be able to criticise as vehemently as we like cultural or religious choices. You can't choose your race, but your culture and your religion are your choices and yours alone.
The BNP is motivated by the race issue but defends itself on the basis of the choice issue.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

Well spoken, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:17 PM

Judging from the number of times Martin Gibson has cited Michael Savage, he seems to be quite a fan.

And who, exactly is Michael Savage? HERE. And where did he come from? HERE.

He makes Rush Limbaugh sound like Mr. Rogers. Not exactly a paragon of political acumen. All heat. No light.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:14 PM

First of all, I do not like or listen to Rush Limbough or the likes os Sean Hannity.

Michael Savage is highly entertaining and these links do not tell the whole story and are from expectedly biased sources.. He is heard daily in over 300 radio markets and has had two best sellers.

He is truly brash, opinionated, at times angry, and quite often dead on right. He is listened to by millions every day for a reason: people relate to a lot of what he says about what is happening to America.

So, Don, you can point fingers all you want, but very few are listening while millions are listening to Michael Savage daily. Ake made a much better arguement and you as usual come across as an angry, knee jerking communist, sponging off your wonderful American made diability check, and hiding behind a facade of pretensious tolerance when it suits you as convenient. Ake's opinion was much well thought out and I highly respect it, while your opinions are predicably knee jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:49 AM

Harvey I agree with part of the statement, "You can't choose your race, but your culture and your religion are your choices and yours alone."

I don't think you can choose culture. You may adopt a new one but there will always be parts of the original culture that will stay with you (and so it should). Culture is not so easily shed. Culture includes your 'mother tongue' and the values and beliefs that are transmitted from one generation to another. It usually takes a couple of generations to rid yourself of the culture you were born into.

It is not easy to assimilate into another culture. For one thing, they might not want you.

Culture is not really a choice. In other words, religion is the only real choice you have. Sometimes thats not even an option (especially for children).

If we wish to live in peace, we must learn to tolerate differences and remember that there are far more similarities.

As far as gangs go - the best way to survive if you are uneducated and poor is the black market. Its not really about race, religion or culture. Its about controlling territory and the lucrative profits to be made from the misery of others. Given education and social status, these gangsters would probably be white collar criminals. Criminals are criminals regardless of race, religion or culture.

Hate crimes are committed against an individual(s) because they belong to an easly identifiable group. Hate is hate. If you are in a position of power, you have a responsibility to refrain from inciting hatred. You are, however, free to think what you want. You are not free to use your power to influence others to hate.

Your freedom ends where another persons freedom begins. We must learn to solve our problems by learning from one another. Hate is just a wall of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 03:55 AM

I can't believe anybody would prosecute Martin Gibson on the basis of what he said. They may not agree with the emphasis he has put on things - but its a free country, nobody has to agree with anybody else.

Can the BNP ever be integrated into English politics. I don't think so - not in the foreeable future. Too much history.

All these years of holocaust denial, and generally expressing the idea that Hitler had his good points. Hitler buggered up a lot of peoples lives. Most of our parents , if they weren't actually involved in the fighting, they saw their cities bombed and buring. Hitler was very bad news.

There are some people I would talk about perceptions of immigration with, and our multicultural society - the plusses and the minusses. Anybody from the BNP is not the person to talk to, the smoking chimneys of Auswitchz are forever in the background.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:37 AM

There you go WYSIWYG some background on the incitement question, and it seems they come to the same conclusion as me, it is difficult to prove. Daily Telegraph 15/12/04
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:43 AM

I take your point Dianavan, but inside any culture there are many choices. Our own world is one example..folk dance or line dance,then...literate or illiterate,binge drinker or social drinker,sport or game player,foxhunter or protester, ....and so on.Everyone has multiple choices inside any culture and therefore must take responsibility for how they make those choices and the effects those choices have on the lives of others.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:29 AM

Dianavan makes an excellent case. The point were harvey and dianavan (and my own view) converge is from where Harvey says
1)The BNP is motivated by the race issue but defends itself on the basis of the choice issue.
Dianavan says
2)You are, however, free to think what you want. You are not free to use your power to influence others to hate.

in this particular case the BNP are using political freedom = "choice" to try to take those political freedoms away from others. I do not believe that this is acceptable.

If society is to function rights AND responsabilities must be applicable to all groups.

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:39 AM

Thanks, Giok! Lot to think about. If I sort out what I think, I'll post about it.

~S~