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BS: Please WALMART needs your help
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Subject: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Donuel Date: 17 Dec 04 - 07:37 AM or Sainta Clause will die for your sins. Walmart poster http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/sainta.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: kendall Date: 17 Dec 04 - 08:33 AM Screw walmart. They donated millions to the republicans and not one dime to the democrats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 Dec 04 - 08:39 AM Only one of the two actually exist, and unfortunately it's Walcrap. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Ebbie Date: 17 Dec 04 - 03:09 PM Our local paper this morning informs us that Walmart has its eye n a piece of property and wants to get into Juneau, Alaska "as soon as possible". And so does Home Depot. What strikes me as odd is that Juneau , lwith its imited land mass and population - 31,000 here on the mainland and some off shore islands with populations of 100 or thereabouts each- is being expected to support competing BIG stores. Surely it only means that smaller stores and other non-bulk outlets will fall by the wayside while the big guys slug it out, none of them making the profit they make elsewhere? And then, as they move out, there will be more empty stores and decaying parking lots. We used to have a Kmart, a Wendy's, Burger King, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Baskins Robbins, I don't know what else. We still have a Gottschalks, Fred Meyer (a small west coast version of Walmart) and a Costco, along with numerous small locally owned stores. Wonder what we'll still have in five years? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Peace Date: 17 Dec 04 - 03:33 PM Bas#ards don't have enough yet, do they. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 17 Dec 04 - 04:46 PM Wal-Mart is donating up to a million dollars from each store matching what is in the Salvation Army kettle in front of the store this holiday season. A great charitable move and I salute them for it. I also salute Wal-Mart for keeping their prices low so many low income people can afford Christmas presents this year. I also salute Wal-Mart for being smart enough to give the Kerry campaign one dime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Bert Date: 17 Dec 04 - 04:53 PM Our local Wal-Mart donates a whole load of returned goods to local charities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 04 - 05:04 PM yeah, and Mussolini made the trains run on time |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 17 Dec 04 - 05:15 PM Denial Bill D. You are in denial of a good cause. You are in denial of a charitable cause by Wal-Mart. Awwwwwwww, poor little Bill D. The big corporation makes him look so bad so easily. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Bert Date: 17 Dec 04 - 05:31 PM What does Mussolini have to do with the price of beans? Why pick on Wal-Mart. There are many other stores as bad or even worse, K-Mart for instance, they are the ones who fired all their older employees and replaced them with cheaper youngsters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Peace Date: 17 Dec 04 - 05:35 PM Let me tell you about monopolies and Northern Stores in the NWT. If anyone's interested, I will. And it ain't a pretty story. And today, they are the gougers of the north. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Don Firth Date: 17 Dec 04 - 06:18 PM Get your facts straight, Marty. Wal-Mart is matching donations to the Salvation Army up to a total of $1,000,000. Not an outright donation, and not, as you're trying to say, a million dollars per store. This, in exchange for being allowed to use Salvation Army bell-ringers in their Christmas commercials. I'm beginning to think this "major company" you claim to work for might just be Wal-Mart. For whatever reason, it's about time they start giving a bit back to the communities they've trashed. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 17 Dec 04 - 06:18 PM Mussolini is Bill D's idol and Bill D. just like to bring him up in conversations that have nothing to do with Fascist Italians because of his liberal mental disorder. How did the song go again? Whistle while you work. Hitler is a jerk. Mussolini bit his weenie Now it won't squirt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 04 - 07:35 PM it's a **METAPHOR**, Martin...but you knew that. I could have said, "and Martin Gibson can play a nice G chord" and made the same point. Walmart (AND K-Mart) and various other mega-businesses like Micro$oft and others are not automatically excused from their sins because they throw a few donations out to distract from the negative consequences of their 'success'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Dec 04 - 08:19 PM I generally do not shop at Walmart, because I despise them. However, I bought an airplane model there today, while looking for something else which I thought I might be able to find there, but didn't. I must be slipping... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Donuel Date: 17 Dec 04 - 08:33 PM Malwart here in DC tried to buy tons of acreage from the boyhood farm of George Washington to build another store. They nearly got away with it. I understand that Malwart has dictated to China what prices they would pay for products. This year however China is dictating to them. There is talk of labor unions in China. More bad news for Malwart is that China will not keep their currency undervalued any longer to match the US dollar. If you want some cheap Chinese goods I bet we will be seeing an end of that era fairly soon. China will also be importing cars to the US next year of the first time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Dec 04 - 08:34 PM The sleeping giant seems to be waking up... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: GUEST,Jews not so much for Jesus Date: 17 Dec 04 - 09:27 PM Martin, I'm surprised you're so happy WalMart is giving a million dollars to the Salvation Army. They are, after all, an evangelical organization whose main goal is to have everyone in the world enter into a "personal relationship with Christ." I know you wouldn't be supporting this UNLESS it was in line with your right-of-center political views and your love of capitalism and WalMart. In 2004, the Salvation Army had a focus group preparing for the Lausanne conference whose theme was how to better convert Jews. The Salvation Army is no friend of committed, believing Jews, and neither, I suspect, is WalMart. From the Salvation Army website: about us The Salvation Army was founded as an evangelical organization dedicated to bringing people into a meaningful relationship with God through Christ. Its doctrinal basis is that of the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition. It is composed of persons who are united by the love of God and man, and who share the common purpose of the organization - to motivate all people to embrace the salvation provided to them in Christ. The word "army" indicates that the organization is a fighting force, constantly at war with the powers of evil. Battles are effectively waged through an integrated ministry that gives attention to both body and spirit. It is a total ministry for the total person. The Army cooperates with churches of all denominations to meet the needs of the community. Those who have drifted away from God and those estranged from their own religious affiliations are often attracted to The Salvation Army. The are first urged to seek Christ for pardon and deliverance from sin. Then they are encouraged to return to active memberships in their own churches or to enroll as soldiers in a corps community center. Young people often are attracted through local music groups, youth camps, and recreational centers. The Doctrines of the Salvation Army. 1. We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice. 2. We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship. 3. We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory. 4. We believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the Divine and human natures are united, so that He is truly and properly God and truly and properly man. 5. We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency, but by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall, all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God. 6. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved. 7. We believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation. 8. We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hat the witness in himself. 9. We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ. 10. We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 11. We believe in the immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, in the general judgement at the end of the world, in the eternal happiness of the righteous, and in the endless punishment of the wicked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: robomatic Date: 18 Dec 04 - 12:52 AM Y'know, as far as I know, The Salvation Army is up front about who they are and what they stand for. My problem is with those who have secret agendas, dishonorable intentions, and cowardly backhanded methods. I've never felt I had a problem with SA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: dianavan Date: 18 Dec 04 - 03:47 AM I agree with robomatice on this one. I do not have a problem with the Salvation Army or any other organization that is honest about what its doing. As far as I know they haven't been nailed for mis-allocation of funds or anything. I don't have to believe their doctrine to believe they are providing a valuable service. Lets not, however, confuse valuable service and business. Wal-Mart uses the Salvation Army because its good advertising. Sure, Sally Anne benefits but Wal Mart benefits even more. And don't tell me its a win-win situation because it is the consumers who lose in the long term. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: mack/misophist Date: 18 Dec 04 - 11:50 AM For very large companies, charity is just another form of advertising. Bill Gates gives away millions to worthwhile causes. But he has more money than any norman human could spend. And I'm sure it helps at tax time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: GUEST,Scoville Date: 18 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM Wal-Mart pays crap wages to most of its employees (the cashiers, etc. who do the grunt work) so they can't afford to shop anywhere else. Wal-Mart wiped out the downtown of the small town where I went to college. A lot of those businesses were family-owned for multiple generations and were keeping people in town. One of them was a drugstore that had the original 1930's soda fountain/lunch counter. They couldn't possibly have competed in a price war with Wal-Mart (they were not, however, overpriced considering the scale on which they operated); I bought there anyway because the customer service was so much better than the mass-market approach at Wal-Mart. I don't have issues with the Salvation Army. I don't agree with them but I know who they are and what their values are, and I often donate anyway because somebody needs the help and, as far as I know, the SA hasn't been funnelling my second-hand clothes elsewhere. I do, however, have issues about Wal-Mart (or any retailer, for that matter) bragging about their prices when they have been accused of short-changing their workers. I work for a low hourly wage myself, and minimal benefits, and find this kind of thing inexcusable. I'm exactly the kind of person to whom Wal-Mart markets itself and I do anything I can to avoid shopping there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: kendall Date: 18 Dec 04 - 03:28 PM Big coporations have one God. Profit, and they will destroy anyone to get it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 18 Dec 04 - 03:53 PM Profit is capitalism. You don't want profit or capitalism, than I am sure you are just another communist or loser in a capitalistic society who is a moron who doesn't know how to make some honest dough. Or has no talent to do so. The moron Guest who tried the religious angle doesn't realize that the Walton family who founded Wal-Mart is Jewish and mambers of the family are on the board of directors. If he is threatended by the Salvation Army which is a noble and extremely charitable organization, I am sure that he is himself extremely anti-religion. Again, no one forces anyone to work at Wal-Mart. It looks to me like a clean arm place to work. No one is twisting any one's arm. You can't put a limit on capitalism. If you are going to go out of business because of Wal-Mart that is the American way, unless you can find a way to give better service or a better product for the money. I think many of you never took Business 101. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) Date: 18 Dec 04 - 05:01 PM The moron Guest who tried the religious angle doesn't realize that the Walton family who founded Wal-Mart is Jewish and mambers of the family are on the board of directors. Sorry Martin, but the Waltons are not Jewish. The rumor that they are Jewish comes from anti-Semitic neo-Nazi websites. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's Date: 18 Dec 04 - 05:17 PM I don't agree entirely that nobody is forced to work at Wal-Mart. Nobody is putting guns to anyone's heads, but if Wal-Mart wipes out all the other diversified businesses in town and moving isn't an option, yes--you have to work at Wal-Mart. The only thing saving me (barely) is my education and I've had more advantages there than a lot of people. I understand that such are the economic facts of life but it still will never seem right to me that small towns can be put out of businesses and have their young populations siphoned off to cities in part because somebody wants to sell loads of junk for less. And no, I am not a Communist (loser is debatable) but I have no desire to be motivated solely by money, and I think that there should be--could be, if the government cared to enforce them--limits on absolute capitalism in the form of making sure corporations follow legal/ethical hiring practices, pay living wages, and have decent benefits for the people who put the sweat into the day-to-day operations. No, it doesn't take a genius to run a cash register, but we can't all be geniuses and somebody has to do it, and if I spend 8 (or 10 or 12 or whatever) hours a day on my feet doing it, I by God deserve fair compensation. Wal-Mart cheats to keep its prices artificially low instead of treating its workers fairly and charging the "real" cost of its merchandise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Cruiser Date: 18 Dec 04 - 06:50 PM The topic of Wal-Mart's pros and cons is broad and deep. Its market practices are at least oligopolistic and may soon become monopolistic. The monopoly will occur when they are the only seller of the low cost commodities and they put undue pressure on their overseas (mainly China) suppliers. Some say they are already there. This is a completely different situation than Microsoft, a company that produces quality products and fairly (IMO) out-competes the competition. Wal-Mart provides (does not produce) cheap products and unfairly out-competes competitors who do not have equal access to those low-quality and low-priced "goods". A Case For WalMart I prefer quality over price, but that market condition is hard to find in this world of outsourcing and markets without borders. I would prefer to go back to the 1950s market climate, but... Cruiser |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Bert Date: 18 Dec 04 - 07:08 PM ...Microsoft, a company that produces quality products... Cruiser YOU MUST BE BLOODY JOKING!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Cruiser Date: 18 Dec 04 - 07:12 PM Bert: Sir, note I said "IMO". No joking, bloody or otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: dianavan Date: 18 Dec 04 - 08:34 PM Martin - As I have said all along. Martin is not Jewish. If he was, he would know that the Waltons are not Jewish. He is a neo-Nazi who impersonates an obnoxious Jew in an effort to create anti-semitic feelings. He's a total low lifer who only shops at Walmart to avoid buying anything from Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: GUEST,Jews etc. Date: 18 Dec 04 - 08:55 PM This just shows that MG will believe more or less anything and rationalize more or less anything as long as it agrees with his politics. 1. The claims I made about the Salvation Army are all true. I took them right from the SA's own we site. Seems they think MG should either convert or burn in hell for eternity, but he thinks they are an extremely charitable organization. Go figure... 2. It's a little farfetched that a man named Walton who comes from Arkansas would be Jewish. 3. To those who claim the SA is "up front" about their goals, I disagree. Do you really think most people know when they buy at a salvation army store or donate their clothes to one that the profits (which of course are not legally profits since they are a religious group) are going to think tanks on how to more effectively convert all non-protestants, or how to spread the belief that anyone who disagrees with mainline protestantism or who isn't "saved" will go to hell? I would guess not. The Salvation Army has most Americans thinking they are a bunch of people who collect for charity, period. They are also a bunch of people who collect in order to impose their beliefs on as many people as they can. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Dec 04 - 09:01 PM Here is an illuminating article about WalMart and the Walton family: The Beasts of Bentonville I seriously doubt that the Waltons are Jewish...not that I particularly care one way or the other whether they are or not. I just don't like WalMart, period. And there are limits on capitalism already...in every capitalist society...since various highly profitable and antisocial courses of action are already illegal. Those limits need to be considerably strengthened. A society based solely on material self-interest is a society headed straight to hell, and it is ludicrous to suggest that the only alternative to that is Communism. (Communism in China and Russia is/was based mainly on the self-interest of the ruling hierarchy of Communist bosses!) It is ruthless, uncaring self-interest (either capitalist OR communist OR any other variety) which stands in the WAY of genuine social progress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Ebbie Date: 18 Dec 04 - 09:24 PM Dianavan, that would explain much about Marvin that is currently a mystery to me. He presents himself as a happily married, middle-aged Jewish man, a very successful business man, a top-rank musician, a man who knows all of the tacky television shows and computer action games, who thinks what he says is funny when it is merely vulgar in the extreme, a man who just coincidentally is ultra conservative and ultra 'patriotic', a man who scoffs at anything from abroad, a man who 'loves' his country in general, Chicago in particular, and Chicago hot dogs without reservation. Do you see where the picture starts going bad? "A happily married, middle-aged Jewish man, a very successful business man, a top-rank musician," is not the guy in the greater half of that paragraph. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: dianavan Date: 18 Dec 04 - 09:27 PM That is an excellent article, Little Hawk. Anyone who wants to see America prosper, should boycott Wall Mart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: number 6 Date: 18 Dec 04 - 09:39 PM Little Hawk mentions in the last line of his thread 'It is ruthless, uncaring self-interest (either capitalist OR communist OR any other variety) which stands in the WAY of genuine social progress.' Interesting statement, and very good it is. Outsourcing specifically to China(which Walmart is one of the largest benefactors) is the greed Captitalism and the greed of Communism feeding off of each other. To Hell with social progress, for the sake of cheap, cheap goods. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Dec 04 - 10:38 PM Precisely. The greed of capitalism and of communism feed off each other, while the public is distracted with needless divisions between "right" and "left", black and white, gay and straight, young and old, protestant and catholic, male and female, capitalism and communism. It's the same old divide and conquer tactics that the ruthless few at the top have used over and over again in the past, with great success. As long as they can keep ordinary people killing each other over these pointless, trumped-up, media-fed confrontations, they can rule the roost and walk away with the spoils. The crowned heads of Europe who fought WWI against one another were all each other's relatives! Little has really changed since then. Only the outer masks change. Putin, Bush, Blair, Sharon, the Saudis, the Chinese leaders...they dine together at fancy dinners and decide economic and military policy, while ordinary people across the World slave and starve and die at their behest. Young Americans are dying right now in Iraq...not to protect the USA, not to fight terrorism, not to bring freedom to Iraqis, not for any of the spurious reasons which they are led to believe they are fighting for by their bosses in Washington. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Peace Date: 18 Dec 04 - 11:15 PM Bohemian Grove |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: dianavan Date: 18 Dec 04 - 11:51 PM Kissinger and Associates provide technical assistance to WalMart. I wonder if Kiss and Assoc. also provide programs for hacking into voting machines? It wouldn't surprize me a bit. I don't know how to get past the divisions that have been created in America. Little Hawk says it all above. If we could begin to get past the differences and focus on the similarities, the lower and middle classes would definitely be the majority. Instead we seem to prefer to be lulled into a semi-conscious state of apathy and confusion regarding the face of the enemy. I wish I knew how to convince people to support each other instead of giving all the power to the elite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 19 Dec 04 - 11:38 AM Wrong Ebbie. I am all of what you say except I don't know much or care for video games. And dianavan, I am a practicing Jew. And you are a first class practicing feminist anti-semite. Sam Walton was Jewish and you can quit denying it because I know it for a fact. Don't shop at Wal-Mart, they will not go under because a few left wing socialists as yourself don't like them. don't like cheap goods, don't buy them. But I would think that many of the losers here can't afford much else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: dianavan Date: 19 Dec 04 - 12:44 PM Martin - I am going to say it once again, I am not an anti semite. I don't care if Walton is Jewish or not but everything I have ever read, says the Waltons are not Jewish. If you have a source that says they are, cough it up. I dislike your name-calling and your biggoted opinions but that does not mean I am anti-semite. You do not represent all Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Metchosin Date: 19 Dec 04 - 12:48 PM A lot of people didn't think much of Adi Amin, I don't think that made them racist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 19 Dec 04 - 03:27 PM I don't care, dianavan. You do represent all feminists, man-haters, and bitter spurned women. You also represent all spineless ex-patriots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: GUEST,True Brit Date: 19 Dec 04 - 03:48 PM Remember Gibson, the colonists rebelled against their anointed monarch. You will all burn in hell for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 19 Dec 04 - 04:03 PM If you are a True Brit, than surely there are False Brits. Kiss our ass for saving your unwashed butts in WWII. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Bill D Date: 19 Dec 04 - 05:56 PM well...the Waltons 'may' be Jewish, but this guy> isn't sure .I'm not sure what difference it makes anyway...if a store is decent and fair, I'll shop there no matter who runs it.m (I even worked for 3 years for a Jewish owned business.) You almost imply, Martin, that if it IS Jewish owned, you would shop there even if it is run in a unfair, disruptive manner. I sure hope I'm wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Dec 04 - 06:02 PM Of the important things to consider about a person, when evaluating their presumed human value on some scale...being "Jewish" is not one of them. It doesn't friggin' matter. We have had long discussions on this forum about what it actually means to be Jewish. To some it's a religious designation. To others it's not. To some it's a cultural designation. To others it's a political designation. Everybody apparently has their own definition of "Jewish". Whatever the heck it is, it doesn't matter. At least, not to me. What matters is how a person behaves toward self and others, regardless of whether or not they are Jewish. And that is merely stating the totally obvious, one would think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Once Famous Date: 19 Dec 04 - 07:01 PM No, Bill D. I don't care if Wal-Mart is Jewish owned or not. They have great prices, nicely lit and clean stores (I have 3 in the vicinity between work and home) have a helpful and rather friendly staff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: GUEST,Jews etc. Date: 19 Dec 04 - 09:19 PM Martin Gibson was the one who brought up the Salvation Army thing; now that he knows they are heavy-duty proseltysing protestant anti-Semites, he doesn't care so much about that. Martin Gibson was the one who brought up Walton being Jewish. Now that he can find no evidence, even from Jew-hating anti-Semites, that Walton really WAS Jewish, he doesn't care so much about that either. He'll say, do, believe, claim or buy anything if it supports his right-wing ideology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Dec 04 - 09:22 PM Well, I really seriously don't like WalMart, but I know a woman who works there, and I like her just fine. I can readily accept the notion that some people think WalMart is just ducky. The prices...I think those vary quite a bit. Depends on what you're looking for and when. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Please WALMART needs your help From: dianavan Date: 19 Dec 04 - 09:49 PM Who cares if the Waltons are Jewish or not, Martin! They are still neo-cons bent on controlling retail sales throughout the world. Every dime a person spends at WalMart goes to support right wing NeoCons who don't give a damn about the people of any nation. Now that they get to use the Salvation Army, I guess we can rightly call them right-wing, Christian fundamentalist, Neo Cons. I'm sure that your admiration for their business ethics will be appreciated. The Waltons seem to have alot of Jewish business partners, maybe you can become one of the inner circle (you might even get to meet Henry Kiss.) Oh, Martin, dreams are made of this. You might even get a promotion! Maybe they'll even send you to China or someplace a little bigger than Chicago. |
